Episode Transcripts - Season 1

Primary Host: Kellie Goya

Secondary Host: Anna-Kaelle Ramos

Legend: MS1 (1st year medical student), UH (University of Hawai'i), PMA (Pre-Medical Association), PAC (Pre-Medical Pre-Law Advising Center), MSMP (Medical Student Mentorship Program), PBL (Problem Based Learning- main curriculum method at JABSOM) MCAT (Medical College Admission Test), CARS (Critical Analysis & Reasoning Skills), AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges)

[Intro]

Kellie: Hi everyone, welcome to our very first episode of JABSOM Journeys! My name is Kellie and I will be your host for today's episode alongside Anna.

Anna: Hi everyone, this is Anna.

Kellie: So she's going to be helping me out today. I'm very excited to introduce our guest for today, fellow MS1, Erica.

Erica: Hey guys, my name is Erica. I was born in Honolulu, Hawai'i; so pretty much born and raised here. I went to Kalani High School and then I went to UH Mānoa where I majored in Molecular and Cell Biology.

Kellie: Thank you so much, Erica, for joining us today!

Erica: Of course!

[Erica’s Time at UH Mānoa - 00:54]

Kellie: For our listeners who may be studying at UH Mānoa, can you talk a little bit about some of the experiences or opportunities that you felt like helped get you to where you are today?

Erica: Yeah sure, so I think right off the bat going to UH and being born and raised here you don't really get to have that mainland experience so it's really important for those who go to UH Mānoa to really make the most. Actually there's so many opportunities at UH especially if you plan to practice here in Hawai'i. One of the biggest ones that I participated in was the Pre-Medical Association so this is probably one of the largest like pre-health organizations at UH. They do a lot of volunteering, a lot of clinical, UH networking. During my time I also served on the board so i was initially the secretary and then I moved up to the Vice President position so just from that experience, it was a great way to learn about leadership. We had to organize a lot of different events and then just kind of know how to collaborate with other people at your level as well as those above. In PMA we had to do a lot with like the medical students at JABSOM so that was a plus because you get to kind of have like a little look into what you're hoping to achieve and then you also work a lot with like other staff members as well as doctors so I felt like PMA was a really good way to kind of just segway you into it.

Another activity or I guess extracurricular I participated in was the Pre-Health Pre-Law Advising Center. I was a Pre-Medical Advisor and basically what I did was I provided advising to students who are interested in any type of pre-health career so that not only included like medicine but also pharmacy, you know PT, Occupational Therapy, speech & language pathology... so it was a really good way to just understand the health care system in general because a lot of students they're so fixated on just medicine that they don't really understand the entire picture of all these different types of healthcare areas and how they all kind of coalesce together to help, you know, patients that we see everyday. I think PAC was a really really great experience and something I would highly recommend to anybody who might be interested in not just medicine but any health care profession. One thing I really got away from that was you know a lot of students they come in and they have a certain problem and I have no idea like what's going on with them but based on whatever they present to me and with whatever knowledge that I had from all the training that we get that's just how i'm able to you know customize their curriculum and like try to alleviate whatever coursework problem that they have so I thought that was a really good way to I guess show my potential in terms of like helping other people.

I also participated in the Medical Student Mentorship Program which is also a conjoined program with JABSOM that was a really good way to just network with the current students there and I got to kind of see the more realistic side because a lot of times we don't get to see from the students perspective, we're more exposed to what the admissions committee wants us to see and so I thought MSMP was a really great opportunity as well.

And then I guess another thing that I did that was related to UH was I did a research project but it was through the Undergraduate Research Opportunities Program which is UROP at UH and they provide you a stipend or funding for you to carry out like a research project and I got to do it with one of my old professors so I thought that was a good way to just kind of stay in tune with what was going on at UH Mānoa.

Kellie: Yeah nice so yeah just a little disclaimer, me and Erica go way back and so she really helped me throughout my pre-med journey and so a lot of these experiences we did together and I can totally attest to everything that she said like PMA was a great opportunity to meet other pre-meds and to yeah kind of build those connections and take on leadership roles.

PAC is a really great opportunity, like me and her worked from more the advisor role but I think for anyone interested in any career in the health field, PAC is a really great resource for you to use to get advice and do your academic planning. They also provide free resources that you can use in your journey to whatever health career you're interested in. MSMP, another great organization, both from the mentee and the mentor position. And research, always something that's on like a pre-med mind so yeah UROP is definitely a really great way to incorporate that as well as build a stipend and kind of get paid for the research that you would be doing anyway.

[Staying home vs. going away for college - 06:20]

I guess in a more broader sense, as someone who stayed home for undergrad as well as med school, do you see any benefits or advantages that it provided especially with JABSOM having such a heavy emphasis on physicians who want to stay in Hawai'i?

Erica: Definitely, I think if you have the goal to serve in Hawai'i, I highly recommend staying in terms of like for undergrad. I don't think it really mattered you know where anyone goes because ultimately you get the education and whatever medical school you end up, that's kind of a little bit more focused in terms of like where you end up. But the benefit that I felt was that I got to stay home, I didn't have to pay for things like dorming, I didn't have to pay for food and stuff because I had my parents to cook for me. Otherwise I think a huge benefit though was when I was like shadowing or when I wanted to do certain opportunities in Hawai'i, I got to do it with a lot of the physicians here and they helped me connect to other physicians and so I felt like coming out of undergrad I had like this whole support system of different positions within Hawai'i and now that i'm in medical school and i'm doing these different like programs and reaching out to them i have this connection to them. For example, i'm part of the board for MSMP on the medical student side and when I was doing a physician specialty board panel, I was able to reach out to these specific physicians because I had this relationship with them that that I built during undergrad and so that's kind of harder for someone who might go away to college because you know they're not, they don't have the time to do so versus you know when you're here for undergrad while you're not studying that could be something that you do. Otherwise like yeah a lot of the community service or like other extracurriculars that you do, they're all revolved within Hawai'i and so you can really speak to you know actually witnessing the different you know whatever cultural diversities or whatever type of disparities that are evident in Hawai'i and you get to see it firsthand just because you are at home and that's something you're very much exposed to and i think being familiar with the culture of like the healthcare system in Hawai'i, that's a huge huge thing and that was something that I felt like i could get out of staying home compared to someone who's spending four years away, you know doing something else in like a different state.

Kellie: Yeah, to touch upon what you talked about with understanding the culture in Hawai'i, I think having experiences like volunteering with different communities is a great way to expose yourself because we've already seen like in our PBL cases ethnicity and culture and a lot of these like social-behavioral factors really play a big part in our curriculum so if JABSOM is a school you're interested in that's definitely like a big part of what we're learning.

Erica: Yeah, absolutely I mean even when you go through that interview process I think the admissions committee they really pick up on those type of things like how in tune you are with the culture of Hawai'i and I think that's kind of a huge factor in terms of who they choose and so that's why i think it's very helpful to stay home and just you know kind of immersing yourself in that.

Anna: Definitely, even the application itself has, you know, questions that kind of, they want to hear that you are aware of these things in Hawai'i. So that's definitely a good point.

[Disadvantages of staying home for college & addressing these- 10:07]

You kind of touched a little bit on this earlier but were there any disadvantages that you found with staying home?

Erica: So I do think that personally from what I see when kids go away is that they come back with the sense of like maturity just because you know they do have to you know do things on their own and they gotta figure things out and I wish that was something I could have as well as they just like think about things a lot more differently because they don't have that safety net that their parents might provide if they stayed home. Another disadvantage I think is that you know I kind of joke i'm almost like inbred in Hawai'i and so not being able to go away I don't get to see other things you know there are obviously so many other things going on in this world and even if we think about like COVID cases right, we think in Hawai'i, like 100-200 cases that's a lot but you think...

Anna: Look at California…

Erica: Exactly like California, so much more and so everything's so much on a larger scale and I feel like I missed out on that like being able to see a lot more severe type of things which is probably like normal for someone in California versus someone in Hawai'i, right. So yeah I think those might be the disadvantages. But in terms of like how to address them, I think it's just more of your own motivation to get that type of experience you know, so for me because I wasn't able to, I don't know, shadow certain types of specialties right, instead I chose to scribe so that I could at least immerse myself in some type of more high volume, high intensity situations.

[Looking to the future for away opportunities - 11:55]

Kellie: So just for our listeners, in JABSOM’s curriculum, we have in our summer between first and second year, we have the opportunity to apply to a bunch of mainland (or international) programs or kind of really just do whatever you want. I guess looking forward for you, Erica, is that something like you want to do like on the mainland or abroad and then even more forward like for residencies and fellowships? Yeah, is that something that you want to do in Hawai'i again or would want to do on the mainland?

Erica: Definitely when I heard that over our summer we're given the option to go away, that was such a cool factor for me, I literally plan like okay I want to go abroad, but of course with COVID, it is very up in the air. But you know if I do have the opportunity I definitely do want to go away even if it's just for shadowing, it's such a good opportunity so that is definitely something I hope to pursue. In terms of like residency or fellowship, so because I do want to go into like Pediatric Emergency Medicine, for emergency medicine, we don't have a residency here in Hawai'i and so I do believe I would have to go away and that's actually not a bad thing for me, that's kind of something I really hope to be able to do just because I do want to have like that training away from Hawai'i because of course, I'm gonna eventually come back right and so I can always learn more when i'm home but I think that opportunity to go away is so valuable. So I definitely hope to pursue a residency and/or fellowship in the mainland.

[Erica’s non-clinical experiences - 13:38]

Kellie: Nice, okay so we're going to pivot a little bit and kind of talk a little bit about maybe some non-medical experiences that you have and kind of talk about how that I guess influenced your application or how that made you a better applicant when you did apply.

Erica: Okay, yeah so I do want to just tell all the people who are listening, I think it's so important for pre-meds to do something outside of medicine when they’re applying, the reason being is because admission committees they're gonna see everybody who has done research they're gonna see someone who has done some type of pre-med related things and it's not unique, therefore you need that non-medical extracurricular to kind of really set you apart so for me, what I did so I have like this love for soccer, i'm really not good at it but it's just amazing...

Kellie: Everyone, she's good!

Erica: No no no, Kellie’s good, I look up to her for soccer. But yeah so just to combine like my passion for soccer as well as you know working with little kids as well as just like the aspect of teaching which is a huge part of medicine, I thought it'd be really fun to coach little, I like to say little kiddos, so I coached five or six year olds for a local club in Hawai'i, it was very, not to say it was like low maintenance but it wasn't like a huge thing that i had to do but it was just more for like my own enjoyment. I was like an assistant coach and so twice a week I would go out to the field and play with the little kiddos and help coach and there's a lot of things that I learned from it. One of the main ones was that it's always important to go back to the basics and I felt like this was such a huge learning experience for me because you know when you teach little kids or when you just teach in general it's important to know that the very basic fundamentals to things and I think that's so applicable in medicine as well. So that's something that I just constantly remind myself after being able to do that extracurricular as well as just coaching or working with little kids it's just so much fun, it was such a good way to relieve stress, you know we just like run around with a little kid, they just come screaming at you and they just do the funniest things and I think that's why I love working with little children. But other, I guess, non-medical experiences, I did do a bunch of tutoring specifically one at Palolo Elementary School, that's kind of a more disadvantaged demographic and I would work at like the after school program and help elementary students with their math or their english and it was just really enlightening to see that light bulb just turn on, right and so that was kind of another thing that I did.

[Deciding to take gap year, its benefits, & Erica’s experience scribing - 16:54]

Anna: That's awesome. I'm glad you brought up doing something non-medical as well as the fact that you worked with kiddos because I know you're interested in going into pediatrics. So you did this [soccer] coaching when you were in your gap years, right?

Erica: yeah!

Anna: Okay, awesome, so are you happy with the decision to take gap years and how did you make that decision?

Erica: So like if you get to know me i'm pretty much like a straight shooter like I want everything done in a timely manner, so initially you know my plan was to get into med school right after undergrad but then in terms of like the MCAT which is like the biggest hump (but you can get through it) but yeah so pretty much i was kind of forced into a gap year because I wasn't ready to apply. But I genuinely think that was one of the best decisions or best things to happen to me. I think a gap year is so important especially because you rush through your four years and then medical school itself is just another four years of just like a lot of intense studying and so you want to give yourself a break. So during my gap years was probably like when I felt the most relaxed. I really got to work on myself while I was also you know working on my application. It was probably one of the best times of my life to be honest. I got to do so much like I got to see more friends, I got to spend time with family, learn that I love food so I do a lot of like cooking or baking or just eating out. Yeah I would highly recommend it to anybody. Of course, you know if you want to just go straight in that's totally up to you, but I think it's a really good time to just like take a step back and really understand that you know medicine is what you want to do.

Anna: Yeah, I myself took one gap year as well and you know, you made a really good point about how it's really your last time to kind of relax before you enter your entire career because it's not like you're going to take a break between medical school and residency and then once you're done with residency you either go to fellowship or you're working so it is a really nice time to relax and kind of build your application like you mentioned. You also scribed a little bit right?

Erica: Yes so that was probably the biggest thing that I did during my gap year. I think like going throughout undergrad because you're so busy studying that I didn't want to I guess work too much and so that's what I got to do during my gap year. So yeah I scribed at the Queen's Emergency Department so this is both the Punchbowl and the West location. Honestly this has been like the biggest influence in terms of why I wanted to go into medicine, like post-grad it really confirmed this is where I want to be. The intensity of an emergency department was just so much fun to me. I think it's a really great challenge that I plan or that I see myself pursuing. And i think just working it also like teaches you how to work with doctors and I think that's such a valuable experience because I know like prior to graduating, I was very intimidated by doctors i didn't know how to talk to them, my voice would go up like an octave higher because I wanted to sound polite and sweet, but you know you learn that doctors are just people and they're really, they just have really great intentions and they're not there to make you feel intimidated. So I think it was just a really healthy experience for me.

[MCAT Journey - 20:35]

Kellie: Thank you for sharing. Okay so going back to this little hump called the MCAT, if you could talk about maybe what your schedule was like or resources that you felt really helped you and worked. And I think another big thing is mentality, just like how, you know, you always hear horror stories of the MCAT and you know, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint so how did you like maintain sanity and keep it all together throughout the whole process?

Erica: So the MCAT journey. My schedule so, one thing I felt was very important was to incorporate break times and so Sundays were my breaks. I did not study for the MCAT, I didn't want to think about the MCAT, that was just like a no MCAT zone for me. Every other day so Monday through Friday or Monday through Thursday; I'm sorry let me backtrack, so initially you kind of want to do a little bit of content right, so you want to look through the books, you want to just kind of understand and get a feel of what the MCAT is about, and so from Monday through Friday initially I would probably like go through the books. I don't remember how many chapters or how many whatever I would do but I just had a schedule in terms of what I wanted to accomplish. I also incorporated Anki so for those who might not know what anki is, it's like this platform or like a, yeah it's like this app, it's a flashcard app basically where they have some type of algorithm so that it spaces out, you know, when you see certain cards so it's a little bit different from quizlet and so they have this, it's kind of like space repetition and that way you have better like long-term memory of the different things that you want to learn. And so I would do anki every day, make new cards or like go through new cards. And then, so I think I would study maybe from like 8 or 9 a.m to about 4 or 5 p.m. Yeah, ideally that was like how it was but of course you know sometimes you want to wake up late. Then afterwards, you know, after that I would just go home and I would not study because I don't want to burn myself out right.

And then about like two months before my exam, I would incorporate Fridays as my practice exam days so strictly, you know, it's about like seven to eight hours right, so that's already like a lot of studying and so I would do that and then the rest of that day was a complete break for me. I did not want to do anything else, I would go out to dinner, just enjoy my life. Then the saturday I would review my exam so that's kind of how it cycled and then eventually when I got closer to my MCAT date, my schedule was more like I would go to the gym from 9 to 11, go home, eat lunch, and then go study from like 1 to 6 or something and I think that's pretty much how I kept it just because I did want to, you know, remain sane for the actual MCAT test.

So in terms of mentality, I think it's so important to know when you need breaks and of course don't be very like loose about it, don't be like oh okay I studied one hour, I deserve a break, just really be in tune with your body and your mind and realize okay if i'm not absorbing anything more then this is what I need to just take a break. So I think that was a huge thing in terms of avoiding burnout. Going further I think it's important to have a very strong support system, I really couldn't have done the MCAT without like my family and my friends and my boyfriend, you know, there's a lot of patience on their end and i'm super grateful for them. And so I think that's a huge part, is really just establishing like okay this is a very important test in my life, I'm telling the people that you know who are also important like for them to kind of understand and respect it. I think that's a very important thing as well, but otherwise i think it's really important to know what makes you happy, you know, so give yourselves little rewards and find ways to relieve stress so like I said I’d like to work with the little kiddos so going to play soccer with the little kiddos, that was like a huge stress relief for me.

Okay, so resources. So a huge huge one that I like to use for the Psych/Soc [MCAT section] was that 300 page Khan Academy. It basically had 300 pages of every single or almost every single thing you need to know about the Psych section so that was super helpful because it was just like a condensed document. And then for CARS [MCAT section], I used the Examkrackers. So I think for CARS, it's very hard, there's not really much content for you to study, it's more of practicing and just understanding how to answer questions and so that's what I used Examkrackers for. And then in terms of the actual like science stuff, so the Chem/Phys, Biochem/Bio [MCAT sections], I kind of interchanged between like the Princeton Review as well as Kaplan. And then for practice exams I used NextStep, so NextStep was probably super close in terms of the actual content and the intensity to the AAMC ones so I highly recommend those. And then of course doing those AAMC practice exams, I don't think any other med students wouldn’t stress that more that you should do those AAMC exams.

Kellie: Yeah so totally agree with everything you said. I think yeah a huge thing is mentality and just making sure, like you said, to know when to take your breaks. I read this thing like this reddit post the day before my exam and it literally was like don't stress, go and be the most confident you've ever been because you know yourself that you worked so hard, you did everything you could and so there's nothing to be nervous about. You just gotta go in and show them what you know and I feel like that mentality really helped me kind of calm the nerves and just going in there and yeah do what you're supposed to do.

Erica: It's actually a very dangerous game to play because reddit can totally like mess with your mind, why would you do it

Kellie: Yeah okay, it definitely can pull you into the deep dark hole of MCAT writing but i'll just drop my little pearl of wisdom for you right there so you don't have to go [on reddit].

[Application process - 27:16]

Okay moving along in the application process, I guess if you could talk a little bit about how you chose the schools that you did apply to, how many did you apply to, and then we can move into like how you ended up deciding on attending JABSOM.

Erica: So in terms of how many schools I applied to, I think I applied to maybe 19, or somewhere from 15 to 20. The reason being is that I had the [AAMC] financial aid thing and so they actually gave you I think 15 or 20 schools for free to apply to so I just took advantage of those.

In terms of what schools I applied to, so when I worked at PAC, you know, we always tell students to apply to schools that you actually intend on going to, right. You know, go just apply to the ones that you don't mind going on an interview with or spending money to interview at and so that was kind of like my main guidance. So a lot of schools I applied to was in California or along the west coast. I did some on the east coast, mainly just ones that kind of matched my statistics in terms of like my GPA, my MCAT score, as well as the curriculum. So I knew I would like PBL because I did some demos here in Hawai’i and so I did look for schools that also did similar types of case studies or collaborative types of work. And then of course tuition was a huge part, I didn't want to go to a school where I'd be in like a million dollars in debt. Also I think it's important to know the class size and the demographics right, so like being an Asian I felt, you know, you want to look for a school that has a good mix, as well you don't want like for me I didn't want to be that only Asian at the school and so these are all like really important factors. They might be a little superficial but honestly if you're spending four years at a place especially if it's not home, it's really important to consider them.

Kellie: Okay and then what about JABSOM did it for you that you're like, that's the school i'm gonna go for?

Erica: Honestly JABSOM was always like a top for me. I think in terms of the culture, so you know like certain schools that I interviewed at, I felt like the staff wasn't as welcoming or inviting as I felt with JABSOM. I felt like a huge pull for me was, you know, this is where I wanted to practice in the future and so I figured, you know, why wouldn't I want to get the education of where I hope to practice. On top of that, you know, like the PBL was a huge part. Also, I really liked how I think from every alumni i've talked to, they all said that it was, like they built this network, you know, coming out of JABSOM and a lot of their friends in med school are like their lifelong friends that they can, you know, I guess refer to when they practice, and I thought that was so important to me because, you know, medicine is like a collaborative effort it's not just one doctor on their own. So I felt like that was very important to me and so the the small class sizes were a huge thing for me. Of course tuition is way cheaper to stay home. My parents living here, being able to support me as well, I think that was a huge pull factor. But otherwise I think JABSOM in terms of education, they're very like, you know, upper-tier like I don't think I would have lacked in any way if I stay here versus going away. So there were just so many reasons to go to JABSOM rather than to not attend JABSOM. I never regret my decision going to JABSOM because I literally met like my lifelong friends, I felt like, you know, they tell you that you have, that you're going to do lifelong learning but they'll never tell you that you'll find your life long friends but at JABSOM you definitely will.

Anna: That's so true. We have, you know, doing classes on Zoom we've kind of seen how some of our teachers and, you know, the doctors interact with each other and it's because they they went to JABSOM together and so they'll be throwing jokes at each other, kind of making fun of each other in a light way, so that's probably going to be us in maybe 20-30 years.

Erica: It better be us!

Anna: That will definitely be us! So thank you for mentioning that, that's a really really good point and I think that's a big factor in why all three of us chose JABSOM too.

[Dealing with setbacks & obstacles - 31:56]

On another note though, what kind of setbacks or challenges do you feel like you encountered during your entire journey? Doesn’t have to, you know, be about any specific step.

Erica: What a hard-hitting question… probably the biggest thing is just self-doubt. You know, I think throughout high school maybe even like undergrad itself, you don't really go through a lot in terms of failures. I would say, not to be like oh my gosh i'm so outstanding but, you know, if you're like pre-meds and like us being very type A type of people, I feel like you know we try really hard and we're able to achieve what we want right, but then when it comes to the MCAT and stuff and seeing all these other applicants, you know, then you start to doubt yourself like wow these people are so much smarter and why am I even considering medicine when there's these types of people. So I think that was a big setback for me at one point because I did have to retake the MCAT and I think when I did that was just like a huge setback because i'm like okay why can't I get it, why are other students so capable of taking it and getting a super high score and I think that really messed with my mind. And I really had to think, like is medicine really for me, can’t I work with kids in a different way but I think like looking back I was always like no it has to be medicine because that's the best way I want to help somebody. I know that for myself when I feel sick and i'm just able to consult a doctor, I instantly feel better and I think that's something I wanted to do for other people and, you know, of course everyone like researches online, goes on like WebMD and they're like okay this is what I have but when you go to medical school you have this valuable opportunity to learn the right things, the accurate information and be able to, you know, transcribe that and translate it to someone who doesn't understand it or who doesn't have that access to learn about these things and I think that was such an opportunity I didn't want to take for granted and I think that's what really pushed me along.

Kellie: As someone who saw you through this setback, I just want to say like, you know, Erica worked really hard to get to this point and I'm so proud of how you were able to push through you know this obstacle. And you I feel like this setback kind of really affirmed that medicine was what, you know, you were meant to do. So for anyone out there I don't think setbacks are the end all be all, like it's really about how you handle the situation and for the most part I feel like it'll either confirm or not confirm if medicine is right for you.

Anna: Yeah, schools want to see that too, that resilience in you so yeah I think it actually gives you, you know, more value to your experiences.

Kellie: Grit!

Anna/Erica: yes yes absolutely

[Erica's experience so far in medical school - 35:01]

Kellie: So kind of moving on like, you know, we've been about six months into med school so I guess...

Erica: Has it been that long already?! No, just kidding.

Kellie: Feels like a million years! But what has your experience been like so far? Obviously it's a little bit different with COVID, but if you want to touch upon, you know, how it's been so far?

Erica: Yeah I mean honestly med school is so much fun. I love it so much even though I complain about it probably like 90% of the time but this one med student told me and my friends like “if there's any place that you want to be stressed, it would be in medical school right?” That was beautiful, but yeah in terms of just my experience so far, so I think like with COVID of course I think JABSOM does a really great job and they give the opportunity for more in-person things than any other school so i'm really grateful for that. You know, the campus is still -open so we can go in and study, they're starting to do a lot more of like in-person activities so like our anatomy lab opened up, we get to do like simulations, so i think JABSOM is really great on making the experience as closely, I guess, in person as possible and so i'm really grateful for that. And, you know, even with all this social distancing, I was still able to make friends, because of Kellie, you know, I think if not then I'd be a big loner.

Kellie: nooo, definitely not

Erica: But you know, I got to make so many friends like Anna, Anna’s honestly like if you guys got to meet her in person, like amazing, Anna is literally like the mother you want in medical school

Kellie: Erica, how much do you think we're paying you?!

Anna: For context, Kellie and I were in the same PBL group starting out in medical school and then Erica as Kellie’'s best friend joined our group and so now we're all in this really close friend group and it's amazing! It's funny because people don't expect you to, like when they ask you how’s medical school so far and I always say it's so fun and that's literally my first response and they never expect that! And they're like I don't think she's doing medical school right. But it is actually, it's actually true, I think i've, you know, even with it being over Zoom, I've made some super close friends, like closer than maybe I made in college.

Erica: Yeah yeah, absolutely

Kellie: A lot of doctors I've talked to, they're like oh med school like that's the most fun you're gonna have, like the best four years of your life. I was like, no it's not it's going to be so stressful! But you're definitely like finding the right group of friends and you know the environment of JABSOM, like no it really is like the best time.

Erica: Yeah, honestly like it's so much fun, it's so much fun to like learn with you guys and study with you guys. As well as you know like having fun, we have like our own little like fun sessions

Anna: Study breaks

Erica: yes yes so important. But otherwise in terms of just medical school, I feel like I love this experience because you're finally getting to learn what you want to learn. You know, like things that are relative, you know, you learn like physics and it's very like I want to say one dimensional, in terms of it's just abstract things that you gotta learn you, just gotta digest it. But then in med school it becomes like three-dimensional or four-dimensional, right, you get to learn about things that are actually relative to you as well as the people that you want to help. You get to learn about the human body, it's a lot more interesting I think, and it really ties together all the things that you learn, right. And there's no more like oh I don't need to know this. It's i need to know this, you know, so it's worth my time studying and I think that's probably like the biggest part of med school. And a lot of people when they ask me like oh how's med school that's what I would tell them, I finally get to learn what I want to learn.

[Last piece of advice - 39:11]

Kellie: What a way to wrap up our episode. Our last question, I guess, would be if there are any parting words or any last minute like dying advice that you want to give to our listeners?

Erica: So actually one doctor he told me, you know, always shoot your shot. I know it's very cliche but in terms of applying, in terms of just doing anything, putting yourself out there. You know, you're never gonna make it or you're never gonna find out whether you will or will not make it if you don't try and so for any student who's very interested in medicine, I highly recommend just trying it out and then you know if you find that this is where you want to be then just work hard, and you'll get there because I think perseverance is a big thing and everyone does it and you know what you put in is what you'll get.

[Closing our episode - thank you, Erica Shin! - 40:06]

Kellie: Round of applause, such wise words. So again thank you so much to our guest today, Erica Shin.

Erica: Thank you for having me

Kellie: If you are interested in asking her any questions or if you just kind of want to reach out and just like hang out with her or talk to her, we'll have her email listed on our website and you can contact her. Thank you so much to co-host Anna for being my support system today. Stay tuned for our very next episode!

Primary Host: Sarah Albrecht

Secondary Host: Shirley Cheng

Legend: PBL (problem based learning), ER (Emergency Room), PT (Physical Therapy), HPI (History of Present Illness), ICU (Intensive Care Unit), MSMP (Medical Student Mentorship Program at JABSOM), Postbac (postbaccalaureate program), MCAT (Medical College Admission Test), MS1 (1st Year Medical Student), CARS (Critical Analysis and Reasoning Section), GPA (Grade Point Average)

[Intro]

Sarah: Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Jabsom Journeys. Today I'll be your host Sarah Albrecht and I will also have a co-host, which is Shirley.

Shirley: Hi everyone my name is Shirley, I’ll be a co-host for today asking questions that are supplemental to Sarah's questions.

Sarah: So just to give fair warning for today's episode you might hear some random bird noises or chickens in the background. I live in a rural place on the Big Island so I cannot do anything about it but enjoy the noises. For this episode we're going to learn a little bit more about a current first-year medical student and who I had the pleasure of having in my current PBL group in our cardiopulmonary unit so please introduce yourself to our listeners Anna.

Anna: Hi everybody my name is Anna Gragas. I grew up on the island of Maui. I went to high school at King Kekaulike. I graduated in 2013 and then I went to college in California at Chapman University and I graduated there in 2016 with a degree in Health Sciences and a minor in Kinesiology and then after that I moved back home to Maui and took a couple of gap years. I started working as a scribe in the emergency department here and that kind of led me to apply to medical school. And now i'm here and i'm a first-year medical student at JABSOM.

[Anna’s Interest in Medicine - 01:34 ]

Sarah: Thank you Anna. So one of the first questions I want to kind of dive into is did you always see yourself going into medicine when you're in high school or when you're a little kid?

Anna: No, I actually didn't, I kind of was one of the people that like realized that they wanted to become a doctor like later in life. I was always interested in science and um I thought the human body was cool and my dad is a paramedic and so he would kind of tell us stories about what he would see in the fields and stuff like that so it was always interesting to me but I guess I don't know I was kind of like intimidated by it and never really thought about it as a path for me um until I started working in the ER. So after I graduated from college I was kind of more on the path of like physical therapy and I really liked like the sports rehab um kind of aspect of that but I wasn't like super passionate about it. I realized um as I was shadowing like the clinics and stuff like that and I just took some time um started working as a scribe and then throughout that experience um just seeing like how the ER works and then talking with the doctors that were there they kind of helped guide me and like helped me see myself in that position so then that kind of led me to be like okay maybe I can do this like maybe I'll change paths and apply to medical school.

Sarah: That's very interesting. I guess for me what are kind of some similarities and differences between like physical therapy and going into medicine?

Anna: I would say they're similar in the like I like both of them is that like you're helping people um in both careers like it's just in like different aspects and it's both like they both have to do with the human body. Um I really like anatomy and physiology so like that kind of goes hand in hand. And like physical therapy is very applicable to like your daily life and like you can help you know people in your personal life. You can help your grandparents you can help your parents but I think like the difference is that medicine then goes like further so say like PT would be helping somebody after a stroke like we learned how to walk or you know rebuild that strength. And then medicine you know you kind of learn about like the pathophysiology behind that or like why that happened how this happens like the predispositions and stuff that people may have and I don't know I just think that kind of like more comprehensive view is really interesting so that's kind of why I like that and I just feel like medicine has a lot of like different specialties you know that you can go into. And physical therapy does also as well like you know you can do like more sports focus or you can do more like geriatrics but I just feel like medicine has a wider range of like possibilities. Like you could do surgery and have a lot of hands-on stuff or you can be like a family medicine physician and have that like really deep connection with your patients and more of a longitudinal care thing. So yeah I think they're they have similarities and I like that you're both both of them. Like you're helping your community um helping people that are in kind of like difficult situations like trying to help them come out of that but they are also like very different.

[Scribing and other Experiences in Maui - 04:24]

Sarah: Thank you for sharing. You talk about like scribing and how valuable of an experience it was. Can you talk a little bit about more like how did you kind of find like a position scribing on Maui, how it was moving to Maui after going to college on the mainland, what resources are available?

Anna: Okay so i guess i can start with like moving back. Um moving back was interesting like I really missed home so I finished my bachelor's in three years just because I came home one winter break like I think it was sophomore year and I was just so sad to have to leave home again and go back to college and like I have good friends um from college but it just wasn't the same for me and California even though it's kind of similar to Hawaii is very different. The people are very different um and so yeah I just kind of wanted to blast through it so I was like okay I'm just gonna finish this in three years. Also the money um and so I moved home basically I stayed up for the summer after I graduated and then I came home and it was kind of difficult um just because you move from like living on your own in a in an apartment and stuff with your friends and then have to move well I moved back home I guess most people like you don't have to but it's a smart way to save money um especially when it's it is difficult sometimes to find like a well-paying job even though you do have a bachelor's degree especially in the sciences um a bachelor sometimes isn't enough you know like you might have to have a master's or a doctorate um so for me and especially in hawaii there's not as many opportunities. So the scribe job um I basically interviewed for it like right when I got home but it to be honest scribing does not pay very well at least through Scribe America which is the company that I worked for um so my dad helped me find that job because he is a paramedic and so he works in the ER um as well on Maui and so he kind of contact he asked the chief scribe like just for her email but basically if anyone is um I think they also do Oahu but if you're listening to this and you're interested in applying um scribeamerica.com their website basically just has all the listings of what's open and you can apply um and I think some of them are open listings so they'll collect your application but they won't look at it until they're in need of a new scribe that's kind of the way that you would apply for that but the pay starts like just a little bit above like minimum wage and then usually you kind of get a small raise after a probation period um but it is I found it like really difficult even while I was living at home to make my like student loan payment um and I didn't have to pay rent you know because I was at home so but you have to like make the student loan payments and pay for your food and stuff like that um so that part of scribing is a little difficult I kind of worked around that by getting like a second or third job which I thought was really helpful like working at a restaurant because you get a lot of tips and it's you know even if you don't think that it's um contributing to your medical school journey it is and it like you know just keeping you afloat financially and helping you like I mean if you work in a busy restaurant it does help you I think um it helps you with like multitasking and be able to like prioritize you know like who you need to see next and it's kind of similar to a hospital just not without the treatment side um and yeah so anyways scribing I am like a huge advocate for I think it was probably the most beneficial experience of my pre-medical journey and um basically like you are like hip to hip with the doctor like you just for us we got assigned one doctor in the ER for per shift so you would rotate around with whoever was on the same shift as you um but it's one scribe and one doctor and you follow them to the room when they go to see the patient and you kind of just stand by the doorway and listen to what they're talking about and so you would take notes on what the patient is saying back um they would be like oh what did you come in for and they'd say chest pain and they'd say you know how long has it been there what does it feel like and you'd be there taking all the notes um and for the physical exam you would do the same you would write it down on your computer and then when you go back to your station you kind of write out the chart for the patient so you'd write this story which is like the HPI um so story of what they're currently in here for you'd fill out their medical history fill out their review of systems fill out their physical exam and you kind of like since you sit right next to them um depending on your doctors if they're you know if they're busy or if they're willing to teach you or not um I found that a lot of emergency medicine doctors are super willing to teach which is really nice and so you can ask them like oh why did you order this or what what would you do about this and they'll kind of give you insight into their thought process which I found like in medical school helps a lot to have just like a little bit of familiarity with that kind of decision making that they go through and then you learn a lot of the medical terminology. You learn different diagnoses, different tests and stuff that they'll do and you also get to see like how the nurses work and the techs and everybody um in the ER as well so that was very interesting and very informative.

Sarah: Thank you so much for sharing

Shirley: I have a question for you Anna. Um so scribing is such an amazing job and I think it's one of the key clinical experiences that people could um take on before medical school um let's say for listeners who can't find a position as a scribe were there any other clinical experiences or resources available in Maui?

Anna: Um I would say yeah scribing is probably the number one just because it's kind of like shadowing it's kind of like getting paid to shadow basically um but if you can't find a scribe position um also I think some offices now like outpatient offices are starting to use scribes as well so I think ER was probably the most beneficial just because it's fast-paced you see a lot of different cases um a lot of different types of cases but then if you like if you have to you could work at a primary care office and they might have a scribe as well um but in terms of other clinical experience I worked as like a medical assistant in a pain clinic office that was very interesting um the patients sometimes can be like a little more on edge because they're in pain you know they they come in for their chronic pain so it's not the most pleasant time for them and our clinic was super busy just because the doctor would come from oahu so he would only be there once a week and so the the appointments would always get super backed up and we would always be behind and people would be upset they would travel all over the island just to get here that one tuesday um and they'd have to wait for hours so that was interesting and difficult but I did kind of a similar thing where you you just check the patient and take their basic vitals and then you would kind of fill out the chart for the doctor kind of just prep it for them um and then but at that clinic I wouldn't get to go in and see their patient interaction I would sit at like the front desk so I think in a situation where like you could get in with the doctor would probably be the best um just so you can see like how they talk to them what they talk about um and how they advise them so I would say like they could possibly like just look up clinics like if they're interested in cardiology um I know this one clinic on Maui um Dr. Muto (James Muto, MD). I think they have what is the word oh they have like an internship program so um they have people that kind of like come in and see the different aspects of their clinic and they have like um ultrasound techs and everything that they do like stress tests in their clinic as well so they get to see multiple different things um so I would say calling specific clinics and asking them although it's difficult with COVID right now because I think a lot of people are trying to minimize the people the amount of staff within their building but um maybe after COVID is a little more controlled then definitely just like calling local clinics um maybe like your pediatrician that you used to see or something and you know just be like hey I'm a pre-medical student I'm trying to get exposure and learn more about the field like would you mind if I you know volunteered or shadowed you and I feel like most people depending on like their privacy roles and stuff would probably allow it

Sarah: So you kind of bring up this interesting idea about how on Maui you have physicians flying into the communities to serve from Oahu. Did you notice any other differences when it comes to rural health care?

Anna: Yeah there's a big lack in I mean like we need a lot more uh primary care physicians which is like you know we have a deficit there but also um in like the specialties. So there was a point where I was working as a scribe and like for two years I think we didn't have a neurosurgeon on Maui so basically like any head bleed case um they would have to get flown to Queen’s (Queen’s Medical Center) on Oahu which is dangerous you know for one like you have to stabilize the patient and they have to go up in a helicopter and that's you know I'm not sure how long the transit is but maybe 30 minutes or something that there they could code in the plane up in the air um so it's kind of it increases like the risk of death. I think worse than if they were just to go upstairs in our hospital to see our neurosurgeon um so that was really difficult. They have since hired I believe two neurosurgeons so that's good but I know like here um we have a shortage of like urologists and nephrologists and so a lot of people like even if they just have like kidney stones and stuff or they need a stent placed in their kidney they'll have to go to oahu or they have to wait like months to see a urologist here um so it's really difficult to get those kind of specialty appointments um but I yeah and then even like pediatrics we don't have any um we don't have a pediatric ICU here so get flown I believe to like Kapiolani (Kapiolani Medical Center for Women and Children) um on Oahu so or Kaiser (Kaiser Permanente Hawaii) um seeing that like the lack of specialties in the outer islands and I'm sure you've probably seen it on the Big Island as well um because Maui will get a lot of transfers from the Big Island for um like emergent dialysis because I think like the Big Island lacks in that and so it's kind of hard it's nice that we are kind of close like we can all kind of help each other out as well as Oahu to fill in the holes but it is not um ideal I guess so yeah I think like trying to keep either like bringing in more specialists or like keeping the local people that become doctors like trying to keep us here um to you know give back to our community is really important.

Sarah: Very interesting I do see a lot of um parallels when it comes to the health care on the neighbor islands even on the Big Island. I heard that there was only like one nephrologist even when I was talking with a physician on Oahu someone told me there's no pulmonologist and given the that we're in the era of COVID you really need a lung specialist too. So right i think it's always interesting to kind of bring up those topics and bring awareness to like differences in healthcare within the state of Hawaii too.

Anna: Yeah for sure.

[Finding Mentors and Support Groups - 15:00]

Sarah: So adding on to your scribing positions it sounds like you're able to kind of get to know a lot of different positions so I was kind of interested about mentoring since being a mentor or having a mentor is so important when it comes to applying to medical school. So could you tell us a little bit about how you found mentors within your pathway and how they've helped you?

Anna: So I would say I didn't really have like a formal mentor um like you know MSMP you guys the mentees will have us to kind of help guide them through which I think are valuable to have. Anyone that has gone through the same process that you're going to be going through. So for me it was basically the doctors that I worked with um and some of them were younger they were maybe in their 40s and we had a few JABSOM alumni at our ER so that was really nice. They kind of explained the curriculum because they were still doing PBL back then and kind of told me about their paths. Some of them went straight from college to medical school and some of them you know went into business and went into medical school or you know different things. So it kind of encouraged me and was like oh okay I can still do this and so that kind of helped but I think what helped me most was that within our scribe group we had maybe four of us that were applying at the same time and then we had like two people that had applied and were in medical school prior to us. Just talking to them and getting their insight was really really helpful about like which direction to direct like my extracurricular activities um what should I be focusing my time on how should I study for the MCAT they were super helpful in that since they were kind of like an MSMP mentor in that way um and since they were friends you know like you can just text them anytime be like hey like I don't know what I'm I don't know if I'm behind in this or what do you think I should do like should I take this extra class and so I think having like a peer mentor was really helpful. I also think if you're in college or like in postbac or something if you want to try to seek out like an advisor from this college that would be helpful as well. I didn't do that myself but um looking back I think that probably could have helped like in the beginning of your path to kind of set out a timeline and they you know hopefully they would know like what kind of prerequisites you need and when they're offered and stuff like that but I do think like my peer mentors I just happen to be very lucky and come across them through the scribe position. So if yeah if you can find them either in your classes or just in your friend group or at work it just helps to be surrounded by people that are doing the same thing.

[MCAT and Application Process - 17:43]

Sarah: I think it's always good to have as many mentors as you can and again a mentor doesn't have to always be a physician. It can be a friend in a class or even a current MS1 like us who are in this MSMP program. Kind of touching upon your timeline when did you actually take the MCAT what resources did you use and then how did you prepare for your application?

Anna: So the mcat I took in March 2019 which feels like a very long time ago but I guess it really wasn't that long ago. I studied for it uh with the Kaplan study books um I had them like get handed down to me from somebody else and so they weren't like you know they don't have to be the newest current you know most current one like I think if you're like a year behind I think I used like the 2018 books. It's generally all the same information you know they're basic sciences so I use those books and just did kind of my own study which I probably could have been a little more um planned out about like made a study schedule but I kind of just went at my own pace and tried to dedicate you know in the beginning I would dedicate like a couple of hours a day to reading and just try to get through each subject and then towards the end I started doing I think starting from maybe six weeks out I started doing like one practice test a week so I do it like every Friday and I would go to um my mom's workplace and I would do it in like a set office space so that it wasn't you know it wasn't my bedroom and it wasn't loud like a coffee shop or anything. I tried to simulate like the test um environment and so I'd do one a week and then just try to like monitor my scores and see if I felt ready and if I was like hitting my target score or not because I didn't feel ready when I took it so I was kind of thinking about pushing it back but I think a lot of the times like you won't feel ready even though you put in the work once it's something this big and kind of stressful um and so yeah I used the Kaplan books um I also used like online resources like Khan Academy you know free stuff like that and then there's also I think if you go to like Reddit and stuff like that. They have some resources as well on some threads. I thought about taking a course um but they're pretty expensive I want to say they're like over a thousand dollars. I think and I don't know if like you guys looked into them as well but I know like on Maui there's no in-person courses um offered so I would have had to like live on Oahu for you know six weeks or something which would have been even more expensive to live so you know pay to live somewhere so I just felt like okay I'm just gonna save my money I'm just gonna try to force myself to do this every day and again like if you have friends that are also studying for that at the same time that can be kind of motivating. If you study together as long as like you guys don't talk too much while you're together and kind of make sure you guys are on track. So I kind of studied on my own for that one but other than that like I would say the Kaplan books if you can get them handed down to you from somebody um or even buy them used from somewhere online it's I thought it was like adequate enough.

Sarah: Oh yeah I think for the MCAT you just gotta chunk out a block of time and just dedicate and try your best with it and just remember that you know it's a test it's an important test but there's more to you than test scores. There's experiences, there's your background where you come from, who you are and all of that is important to kind of showcase in the application.

Anna: Exactly also one other thing I just thought of is that um if you are working like while you're studying for the MCAT it can be difficult. So for me I like worked a lot of hours leading up to it and then I kind of cut back at one of my jobs and was like I need to dedicate more time to this so it's like if you can manage it financially um or if you can try to prepare for that ahead of time because it could it'll take you know several months to study and it is difficult to have to squeeze it in between you know maybe two jobs or whatnot so I think if you're able to cut back on hours during that time that you're preparing for the MCAT it can be super helpful.

Sarah: And then another thing too I know for the Big Island when it comes to actually taking the MCAT exam that there's no testing centers on island and so that right you have to fly out to Oahu did you have to do that too?

Anna: Yes so we had to fly over um which is like additional cost um as you know so like paying for the flight and then the test usually starts at around 8 am so you kind of have to be there at least the night before and it it does it kind of I think was like difficult to have to try to sleep in like a hotel in like a different place the night before while you're already kind of anxious so I think if you're like you know just try to calm yourself as much as possible in the new environment and like for me I happen to schedule at the same time as two other people from my workplace like we just we didn't plan it we just happened to and so we were staying at the same hotel and then we like walked over together like we did kind of like a trial walk over the day before to see where it was and then we walked over together in the morning so it's kind of nice to have people to talk to so i wasn't just like all in my head you know um but that was yeah that is also kind of a setback of being in a more rural place is that you know you have to travel to get to just to even get to the test center.

Sarah: What's great is that you took the MCAT you got through it you scored your score. Would you mind sharing kind of your stats about like with that come with your application and then maybe talking about um just highlighting your personal statement maybe?

Anna: Sure. So for the MCAT I scored I can't remember like the specific um subject scores but I think my total score was like a 511. My CARS score um was the highest for me and I think like my physics was probably the lowest um I think it's physics and chemistry. I'm not great at standardized tests so I was kind of aiming for I think I feel like I was aiming for a 510 and then I kind of based my target score off of the schools I was most interested in and what their average scores were and tried to hit that and since I was like kind of like barely within my target I was like okay i'm just going to apply with it and i'm not going to retake it yet um so I'd apply once and if I didn't get in I would I would consider retaking it again and I think if you're shooting for like the top 10 schools in the country then you're definitely going to be shooting for a higher score than mine but um it kind of all depends on like what you know the other strengths of your application are and what schools you're looking at as well and then for my GPA my like post like after graduation GPA was I think like a 4.0 but all together cumulative was like a 3.7 which is also I think maybe close to JABSOM’s average um if not it's probably a little bit below the average numbers that they have on like their website but for me I think because honestly like my numbers kind of stress me out a little bit because I was like okay I'm not like blowing them out of the water you know with the with the just the MCAT and the GPA um so I was hoping that um and I know like we all don't know how the admissions committee looks at your application but I'd like to think that JABSOM takes like a holistic look at your application because you know they want community physicians that are about the people in their community and are able to make those connections and are more than just academics so I think that they really look at your other experiences and kind of how you interview and stuff like that so I think like my other community service and stuff probably helped to supplement my application and then as well as like your personal statement I think I showed that I'm a product of like my community and like how I was raised and my values were kind of instilled in me from my parents and just community is very important for me family is very important to me. I've been emphasizing and like my secondary essays as well that I do plan to stay in Hawaii I do plan to come back after residency if I have to leave it is super important to me like you know that I do stay. I think JABSOM appreciates that and like looks for that in their applicants.

Sarah: No I think that's actually very informative and helpful because I do believe that JABSOM does have a set values that they want to make sure that you're a good fit and so you kind of touched upon like some examples of how you thought that you fit kind of into JABSOM but could you be a little bit more specific about these values you kind of talked about?

Anna: Yeah a very cliche one is you know having compassion which I think any school would look for that because as a physician you have to you know be empathetic and try to see yourself in your patient's shoes and try to understand what they're going through and just having compassion for all groups of people and like you know treating everyone equally and specifically for JABSOM I think just and I think there's a reason why they accept more in-state versus out-of-state is that growing up here like there's just a certain like very strong sense of community that you don't always get in other places or you know I didn't I guess I won't know because I didn't grow up in other places but just from like living in California it's not the same sense of community. So I think growing up here you just kind of like that emphasis on family the emphasis on like the greater good you know like doing things for others versus like only for yourself. I think having like those kinds of values and like the respect for your kupuna like thinking about the elderly and caring about the elderly and caring about you know the younger population and I think like a lot of people in Hawaii like even through MSMP like you want to help the younger generations that are coming up as well. So you want to like help it make it easier for them and there's also kind of like a pride in it like coming from somewhere small and being able to overcome like maybe the obstacles of having less resources in a rural place um and then once you're here then you do want to like help the other people that are kind of coming up so that we can have more and more physicians that are coming from our own islands.

[Biggest Challenge - 27:07]

Shirley: Just while we're on the topic of your application and your journey and all that I was wondering what the biggest challenge was for you?

Anna: Um so I think the biggest challenge for me was probably finding like research opportunities um on Maui. So I'm not huge into research and but that was kind of the one thing on my application that I had like nothing in and I felt weird leaving it blank or like not having anything in the extracurriculars to list under research but now like from advice that I've heard from people even like Dr. Asano is that you know do what you're interested in and don't force yourself to fit the mold of what you think a pre-med student should be doing like just because some people do research doesn't mean you have to do research um but if you're you know on Maui and you are interested in research that is something that I found was a little more difficult to find opportunities for just because like you know we don't have huge labs or anything that would be hiring people like interns and um so basically I found like one opportunity through um the community college so University of Hawaii Maui College and we analyzed basically like the mouth microbiome and how it reacted to different food preservatives so it was kind of interesting it was about like you know it had like relevance to everybody's lives because we all eat you know foods that have food preservatives most of us um and so it was interesting but it also and it was nice because they kind of like didn't mind that I didn't have a lot of experience in research um but that I kind of just stumbled upon my friend who is also an MS1 now and was applying with me um and lives on Maui she heard that this one doctor um professor at the college was doing this research and asked her like oh you're she was kind of affiliated with JABSOM because they got funding from them for this project and told her like oh we're applying to medical school like would you mind if we like basically volunteered um and so we had to pay for a credit uh or a half credit and just did a little bit of research for like a semester or two um but I would say like if you're gonna do like really in-depth like try to get published like that kind of research it is really difficult on Maui and I would say probably the best resources is the community college or even just trying to do I'm not sure if like maybe uh would do like a distance research if it wasn't like bench research so yeah I think for me that was the biggest hurdle um but I also would say like if you're not super interested in research like don't stress yourself out over it.

[Last Piece of Advice - 29:38]

Sarah: Thank you so much for sharing. Now that we've kind of have an idea of like your journey and all your amazing experiences your time on Maui let's kind of close this with some advice that you have for any pre-meds who are interested in applying to JABSOM.

Anna: Um I would say just be yourself you know like if you're committed to like serving the people of hawaii and you're committed to being a good physician and like you have all these I'm sure like just from your guy's upbringing you have all these values within you already so um just try to show that through your application and through your interviews and usually I think it should come across to the admissions committee and um through your application. Somebody told me this when I was applying but try to like build a story out of it so you can kind of show them a little bit about yourself and not just like telling them like a list of like I did this this this these are my numbers you know so try to tie them in together um so one of like my biggest extracurriculars I think that was on my application I'm not sure but I think for me it was like one of the most special ones. My friends and I that were also pre-med kind of made this organization um where we would take like leftover um towels and sheets and stuff from the hotels because they throw them out when they're still like really good in really good condition so we would take those and any other donations that they would give like soaps or toiletries and then we would take it to um like Aloha House and Women Helping Women which are kind of like outpatient um like rehab centers kind of and so I think and that we started just because working in the ER together we kind of saw like there's a need somewhere and we're like okay how can we like we don't have a lot of money but how can we help like fill these little holes so basically we were just like um the transit of goods um but for me that was really special because it was something that we like started on our own so I kind of tried to tie that into like my dedication to community and stuff like that and trying to help others in need and tying that into your whole story so even that or like um like volunteering in like nature reserves like you can tie that into your dedication to community as well so I think kind of yeah like drawing a story for them um kind of helped to illustrate it. I think and then it's also like as always just taking as much help from any mentors that you can find as we talked about earlier like you said there's never too many mentors and it can be hard when everyone is giving you advice and they might contradict each other but you know just take everything with a grain of salt and you know what's best for yourself so if something doesn't feel right then you know throw that part out or if it you know if something resonates with you then you know take it to heart so yeah.

[Closing - Thank you, Anna Gragas! - 32:26]

Sarah: Thank you so much and such great advice from such an amazing person. Just to close out this episode I just want to give a big thank you to Anna again for sharing her story. I know that for me who is a neighbor island person I always want to hear more about others who come from like a similar background and I think it's always really important to amplify voices from other communities and be able to kind of share those fun stories about how you can help your community so thank you so much for listening and then if anybody is interested in reaching out to Anna you can email her via her email in the link to this podcast episode on our website and thank you again for listening to JABSOM Journeys.

Primary Host: Sarah Albrecht

Secondary Host: Brendan Seto

[Intro]

Sarah:

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of JABSOM journeys! I'll be your host Sarah and we'll also have Brendan as a co-host

Brendan:

Hey how's it going Sarah

Sarah:

It's going good Brendan. I'm still on the big island and so you still might hear those bird sounds but hopefully they're not as loud as last time.

For today's episode we're going to be learning more about Peggy's journey. I have known Peggy for almost a year and a half. We both went through the post-bac program of ‘Imi and I'm excited to be able to hear more about her experiences and just her overall story. So take it away Peggy!

Peggy:

Hi my name is Peggy Sue and I was born and raised here in Honolulu, Hawaii. I went to Wailoa high school before attending UH Manoa where I got my undergrad degree in microbiology with a minor in business administration and then I got my masters in public health with the focus in epidemiology afterwards.

Just a little bit of a background about me: I'm a non-traditional student in the sense that I actually didn't decide to pursue medicine until my senior year at UH. The reason why is because at that time I was pursuing a career in optometry and found out I didn't want to pursue it so I was a little bit lost. But I decided to really pursue things that I was interested in after I had this very transformative experience studying abroad. A couple of those things were one my interest in medicine which I developed while I was in the pre-med association club at UH Manoa and also my interest in public health that I developed when I was doing a bunch of internships at the Department of Health here in Hawaii. So that's how I ended up pursuing my master's degree. Also, I was working on the side as a scribe and those two experiences actually reaffirmed the reason why I wanted to go into medicine and I just kind of gunned it towards going into getting into medical school and I'm here now.

[Study Abroad and Undergrad - 00:32]

Sarah:

Thank you for sharing Peggy! I know that you brought up this transformative experience of studying abroad and how that kind of led to deciding to kind of go into like this medical pathway can you explain a little bit more about that?

Peggy:

Yeah, of course. So, when I was pursuing my initial goal of getting into optometry school, I worked at an optometry office. While it was a great experience, I learned that that was not what I wanted to do. I didn't find it fulfilling and I wasn't happy and then I was lost because this is my senior year in college where i was like: “well I'm graduating and what am I going to do”?

So I actually spoke with one of my college counselors where she asked me like it seems like you're kind of on this timeline where you have to finish things because you just have to but not because you need to. She's like: “if you could stop time and do something, you know anything that you want to do, what would it be”?

I told her I would love to travel and she asked if I had considered studying abroad. At that point I didn't think that was something that it was anywhere on my radar for school. I didn't think it was possible just because financially it's pretty expensive. But she told me about all these scholarship opportunities and whatnot and I decided: “okay I'm gonna do it”. I took that risk and I kind of got out of my comfort zone and so in the fall of 2013 I actually studied abroad in Seoul, Korea and that was one of the best experiences ever. As someone who really didn't get to experience life off this island to kind of just be independent and so forth and at that time I thought to myself: “I'm already kind of delaying my graduation by year by doing this so why don't I just decide to pursue my interest and see where it goes”. And so, my study abroad experiences kind of got me out of my comfort zone and decided to just take chances and go. After things I was really, really interested in. Not saying that I wasn't doing that before, but I just was a little bit restricted by this timeline that I set for myself where I had to graduate within four years, be in a graduate program or whatever it may be right afterwards and then have a job immediately afterwards. This kind of just threw me off that trajectory.

During my undergrad I had these wonderful experiences where I did a lot of volunteer work and also internships and one of the internships that I really enjoyed was when I worked at the department of health in the infectious disease department. At that time, it was more focused on my degree, which was microbiology, just to learn more about it. And I did, but we also had these weekly meetings where the director would bring us all in and he would kind of advocate for public health practices. I was like: “hey this is really interesting”. So that kind of got me on to the route of pursuing my interests, specifically with epidemiology. It just kind of meshed well with my interests which is microbiology and public health together. So that was fantastic.

There was no optometry club at UH so I joined the pre-med club which was kind of like a pre-health organization that covered all the other pre-health jobs. I went into this just trying to make friends and build the camaraderie with those who are interested in a healthcare career and they did so many different educational activities, got to meet physicians and so forth. That's where I kind of started to spark my interest in medicine. I decided to work as a scribe at the ER at Castle and at Wahiawa hospital and that was the most amazing and very rewarding experience. I learned just so much. Some things are still very useful here in medical school, so those two things kind of really accelerated my path towards pursuing medicine afterwards. Public health is definitely very important and it also is very intertwined with medicine too. That's why I'm here now.

Sarah:

So, was medicine ever on your radar prior to Seoul?

Peggy:

It mostly popped up after my study abroad experience and I decided to stop pursuing optometry. It was also during the time where I was engaging a lot of activities with the pre-med medical association at UH Manoa. That really sparked my interest. Also, one of the workers at the optometry office was a nurse and she'd talk about all these really cool procedures that she was doing and I was like: “Oh hey that sounds a lot more interesting than what we're doing here today”. No offense. It was a really great experience at the office but I found my conversations with her to be just more fulfilling and more interesting. So I would say it was maybe the end of my sophomore, junior year when I started to really focus a little bit more on medicine.

[What is Public Health? - 05:29]

Brendan:

Thanks Peggy! You know there's a lot of information there. I was hoping you could talk a bit more about your public health experiences.

Peggy:

Sure, a lot of my experiences that I gained from the internships that I had really focused on preventative care and so forth. I found this really important and was very interested in how you could build these programs to prevent a lot of the downward effects that you see when we lack the right infrastructure. This was something that really interested me, especially because a lot of the stuff that we were dealing with was an outbreak of infectious disease because. I found it kind of to be kind of a beautiful bell between my undergrad degree of microbiology and my interest in the whole preventative aspect of these kinds of programs. And then medicine kind of was able to just mix it all in and it worked nicely.

Sarah:

Thank you for sharing so much Peggy! If someone didn't know about public health, how would you kind of explain it to them?

Peggy:

So public health really focuses on populational health, the health of the community. As I mentioned earlier, one thing that really appealed to me is their focused on preventative care.

Another way to think about it is in public health they teach you about the different tiers of health where you have primary care that focuses on getting and keeping people healthy versus trying to treat them only when they're sick. These are the secondary and tertiary tiers and the reason why I was very interested in these levels is because it's a lot more cost effective there's a lot greater impact on quality of life of individuals if you're able to implement these programs that can prevent people from getting sick in the first place. Whether it be like infectious disease by aerosol droplets as we go through this pandemic or by food sources, the water, vegetables and fruits that we eat, these programs that focus on chronic diseases and preventive practices really piqued my interest. So, for me epidemiology was very interesting because I got to see how it really has an impact down the line.

[Public Health and Epidemiology - 07:53]

Brendan:

So I know in a lot of places Epi has become a kind of applied biostatistics with a more quantitative focus. Seeing as you had a concentration in Epi, can you talk about the focus of the program here?

Peggy:

So definitely epi was heavier on the quantitative aspects in terms of the classes that we took. We had biostatistics and everything, it really depended on what exactly you wanted to do. We also had a capstone project to work on so this is kind of a presentation that we gave at the end of our master's program and it depended on what exactly you were focused on. In terms of chronic diseases, you do have a lot of quantitative values but there are also qualitative values that you look at a bit more holistically. Luckily, we weren’t just siphoned into epidemiology completely. They wanted us to get a little bit more of a global understanding of public health and not just focus specifically on epidemiology.

I think that was a great perspective because my experiences outside of epi also showed me the impacts of the different

struggles certain communities here have in Hawaii regarding health. I got to go out into the community and do really cool research projects with the kupuna's in Waimanalo and kind of interviewed about their ideas of health and that wasn't focused on my epidemiology specifically but I found that to be absolutely rewarding in that sense.

In sum, I feel like it's great to kind of get a little bit of a larger focus. With these diseases or with health it's not just numbers. Numbers help back up the data that you have and they're definitely useful to developing programs but being able to talk to people and get to get to know them was also a very rewarding experience.

[Public Health Kupuna Project - 10:00]

Sarah:

Kind of jumping in real quick I know Peggy you've told me about this really awesome experience where you got to talk with the Kupuna about health. Can you kind of talk a bit more about it? What are some takeaways that you got from having those conversations?

Peggy:

Yeah so for me I think that before I got into this program my definition of health was fairly narrow, like a person’s physical health. You exercise, eat healthy and you just maintain an overall well-being. I got to interview a bunch of Kupunas and their perception of health was very different. They looked at it very holistically. It was more about the emotional, spiritual as well as their physical wellbeing. Their community also played an impact, their family, really everything that they thought as health was beyond just their physical well-being. We also spoke about the kind of barriers that they face in terms of having access to fresh fruit produce in their communities for example.

Ultimately, I think it kind of ties into this buzzword that's going around or has been going around which is these social determinants of health Over time these challenges become chronic issues that build and become something that is debilitating. It's sad, really because if they had access to these resources a lot of these things would be preventable. So one thing that i think is really important is to be able to educate or help guide people towards these resources that may be available that they might not know about that way they can take a little bit more action or just have know that they have resources that they can use

[Scribing Experience - 13:11]

Sarah:

Okay so I wanted to go back a little bit Peggy if that's okay because I wanted to ask about your scribe position. Can you talk about your perspective or insights from this job?

Peggy:

Yeah! Scribing was an absolutely great experience. At the time, I didn’t have any clinical background and one of my friends recommended scribing. She worked at Queens and so I decided to apply.

I was basically using their electronic medical system to chart for the physicians. It was very good in the sense that a lot of skills that we’re learning now as a first-year student are done as a scribe. Creating the history of present illness, review of systems and physical exam findings. Now (in medical school), it’s just about learning why we do them. So it was great when we got to the cardiac unit, for instance. I already knew what the physicians were looking for, I just had to learn why. We also got to see a whole bunch of different cases every single day. I’d say 70% of them could have been outpatient visits with the PCP, but that really ties into the whole public health aspect as well. There were a lot of really sick patients who came in with chronic diseases. Here they were getting tertiary care and I could see how their conditions impacted their day-to-day life. It was a real intersection of medicine and public health. I definitely highly recommend scribing as an experience.

In terms of practicalities, I was still going to school, so I only worked part-time. I worked around 20-30 hours a week, depending on how many shifts I got. Sometimes I’d have 3-4 when I first started, but when my master’s program started I told them I had to cut back so I went down to about two. Shifts are variable, some start at 7 a.m., some are overnight.

I think the pay started at minimum wage, so not really livable. You can get a small increase if you do their little online learning activities, which was an extra 25 cents. I think the consensus is that you’re not really doing it for the money, but for the experience.

[Peggy's Experience with the MCAT - 11:31]

Sarah:

Let's say this is Peggy: “I'm out of college again, I got my master's in Public Health, and I want to go to medical school. What kind of steps did you take to get to where you are today?

Peggy:

Okay so I had two gap years, one after my undergrad degree and one after my master's program. After my master's program I took it specifically to gear myself up for medical school. I tried studying for the MCAT while I was in my master's program but just had too much, too many things on my plate and didn't really allocate enough time to really focus and really take that test. Obviously, you only want to take this test once, it’s less painful that way. So that year I continued scribing, which was still a wonderful experience, and had another part time job on the side. But I really focused on hunkering down and taking the MCAT because I knew that that was one of the things that I needed to get done in order to even apply. And so, I took about two months to just focus on the MCAT and nothing else. So I took it and then with getting my letters of recommendations in order and all the other requirements, I pretty much spent that year building my application.

The gap year before I got into ‘Imi (after the master’s program) was spent just building my application and getting it in, and then applying during that cycle and going to interviews. Something that always sticks out to me when it comes to getting ready is reaching out to mentors that you met along your path.

[Mentorship - 15:54]

Sarah:

Are there any notable ones that you would like to share?

Peggy:

Honestly, during this journey I didn’t really know too many people in medicine. I met friends along the way who were successful in getting into medical school and I asked them a bunch of questions. But yea, I didn’t know any doctors or anything. So I had to really kind of try to pave my way to get here.

As I said before, I have a very non-traditional pathway and so many of my mentors during my gap years weren’t necessarily strictly in medicine. One of these people was Elizabeth Steele Hutchison, from my time working in the admissions office at the law school. She’s the director of admissions there and really helped me develop my professional growth. And other than just kind of teaching me how to handle myself professionally, I would say she’s just been a great supporter and teacher of things I didn’t even know I needed to learn. Another mentor I had was a research mentor Dr. Zoia Stoytcheva. She was wonderful in the sense that she helped me reach for these great opportunities that I just didn’t know about and really pushed me to do more conferences, presentations and so forth. And then I met some wonderful mentors in my master’s program. Some of my professors were absolutely fantastic and are the reasons why I was able to get here. They were definitely very supportive of my goals and I just can’t thank them enough.

Brendan:

Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. You know, I think that oftentimes we think of mentors as kind of feeding one role, which is to guide you towards some future path. But I think oftentimes the most impactful mentors are the people who help you grow personally or that provide a good example.

[Secondary Applications & Interview Tips - 18:46]

Sarah:

Thank you for that point Peggy, I think it’s a good one. So, I wanted to return to the medical school application. You apply to medical school, what happens after that?

Peggy:

So, after you put in the whole application, the secondaries come in. [Editor’s note: Secondaries are school-specific essays very similar to college essays]. You’ll have a flood of them all at once and, remember, they’re time sensitive. So if you apply to a school that has rolling admissions, you want to get that done as soon as possible so that the admissions committee can review your applications. [Editor’s note: many people say to target submitted secondaries within 2-weeks]. Spots for interviews can quickly fill up, as I found out once I checked my emails and found only very limited interview dates. One more tip, a lot of the secondaries are posted on online forums and are usually reused, so definitely take a look at that. Especially with the time crunch, it wouldn’t hurt to look at the prompts ahead of time.

Sarah:

Okay I think another question that comes up when applying to JABSOM is the idea of how to explain to the school who you are and what you are passionate about, especially in a personal statement. Can you talk a little bit about what you shared in those secondaries or in the primary application?

Peggy:

I would say the personal statement was hard for me because you have a word limit, and you can’t write your whole life story in your personal statement. So, I had to be very selective on what I wanted to present. The general point, of course, is to convey “Why Medicine?” I briefly mentioned how I was interested in optometry and then lost interest in optometry and then my study abroad. So, a lot about what I’ve talked about today. And then I talked about my plans and interests in medicine. To be honest, I don’t necessarily know – or need to know – what specialty I want to go into or anything like that. But there are some things I am truly passionate about and I tried to incorporate these themes here.

Sarah:

Ok, so what’s after secondaries?

Peggy:

A couple weeks or months after the secondaries, interview invites come out. I had to pay for my flights, so I would definitely recommend saving up for this if you are someone who is also funding this yourself. It gets fairly expensive.

Ultimately, I applied to JABSOM and a bunch of other schools on the mainland. By the summer, I had a few options to choose from where I wanted to go, but I decided to stay here because this is where I want to practice. Also, the cost of tuition was definitely a big selling point.

[What is ‘Imi Ho’ola? - 20:34]

Sarah:

I know from experience we've both been able to get through this postback program called ‘Imi Ho'ola that's through JABSOM. Do you mind explaining how you applied to there or how did you find that opportunity? Were you hesitant at all going into the program?

Peggy:

I heard about this program through my friends that got into the program a couple of years ago. Before I got into ‘Imi and I didn't know too much about it, but this program is made for students who the admissions committee sees the potential of being a medical student and a physician but may need a little bit of work in their foundational sciences. Right?

Sarah:

So to give a little more context to ‘Imi Ho’ola it is a one-year post-baccalaureate program that's offered through JABSOM and the mission of this program is to provide applicants who come from a disadvantaged background the necessary skills and resources that they need to succeed in medical school and become physicians that are so needed in our communities. You may be asking yourself: “well what qualifies as a disadvantaged background?”

So based on an application and also their website, they deem disadvantage as someone who’s faced economic, social or even educational disadvantages on their pathway to medicine. I know for me this program has prepared me for the rigors of this first year in medical school and I think what’s also important is you come out with a great group of people as this is a pretty small class with only about 12 people per year. So just giving a shout out to ‘Imi Ho’ola. If you’re interested, please think about applying to this program when you apply for JABSOM.

With that in mind, Peggy, is there anything that you want to mention about ‘Imi that we haven’t covered?

Peggy:

Well, I came in knowing a couple of people who told me that this would be the roughest year that I’d experience. I told myself that if I worked hard and applied myself I would be ok. But this experience really pushed me to my limits beyond anything that I could imagine. You know, I was giving a hundred percent but there were days where that wasn’t enough. I had to look at things in a whole new perspective. I think this was very important because it helped me develop this resiliency that I didn’t even think I had. In addition to just the huge volume of knowledge, there’s this lingering pressure hanging over your head. Even though you got into this program, your spot in medical school is not guaranteed and is conditional upon the fact that you pass your exams. There’s always this fear that you don’t do well enough, didn’t study enough and fail the exams and get kicked out of the program. So for me, being able to handle the stresses that came with all of these fears and large amounts of information was important to my transition to medical school.

The other thing this program highlighted was our theme of mentorship. In the program, we got paired up with a former ‘Imi, who was usually a first-year medical student. They could kind of give tips and pointers and help us calm down when we were panicking. It also leads into this broader sense of community amongst ‘Imi grads, current medical students and those who’ve graduated are now practicing. So the mentorship doesn’t stop when you’re in the program, it continues throughout your career.

In the end, I am just so grateful that I was able to be part of this program. They gave me this huge gift and hopefully in the future I can give back and continue the tradition.

Sarah:

Thank you for sharing. I know for me when I kind of reflect back on my experiences I would say that sometimes I felt very alone when it came to that journey of becoming a physician. In my family there's not really anybody who is in medicine and even during college I didn’t have any friends and peers who were on a similar path, who had the same experiences that I had. It wasn’t really until ‘Imi that it started clicking to me that I wasn’t alone in this pathway and there are people to help me out on my journey.

[Advice for Pre-meds - 29:13]

Sarah:

Okay, we talked about a lot of different experiences you've had, and I appreciate how broad and varied your experiences have been. We’d like to close out this episode by asking what advice you would give to someone who’s applying to JABSOM.

Peggy:

I think broadly, really just try to chase things that you’re truly passionate about. There’s no perfect application, everyone had such a different trajectory and journey. So just be you!

Sarah:

Okay, thank you so much Peggy for being in this episode with Brendan and me. I hope that our listeners were able to get the same sense of your passion for preventative care and also this commitment to lifelong learning that I think your story brings out.

Thank you for all of our listeners as well and we hope you join us next week on JABSOM Journeys!

Primary Host: Shirley Cheng

Secondary Host: Kellie Goya

Legend:

EMT: Emergency medical technician

MA: medical assistant

PA: Physician Assistant

DNP: Doctor of Nursing Practice/NP: Nurse Practitioner

MHRT: Minority Health Research Training (MHRT) Program in Health Disparities

MCAT: medical college admissions test

CARS: critical analysis and reasoning section

[Intro]

Shirley: Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of JABSOM Journeys, where we share the pre-medical stories of current first-year medical students at the John A. Burns School of Medicine in hopes to bring inspiration and guidance to your own path. My name is Shirley Cheng and I will be your host for today and we also have Kellie Goya joining us as a co-host.

Kellie: Hey guys it's Kellie, welcome back to episode four. I'm excited for you guys to hear from this very special guest.

Shirley: In this episode we will explore the path of Bradley Thomas, a husband and a father who took a non-traditional route to get to medical school. He is a friend, a member of my learning community and an awesome study buddy. Welcome to the podcast, Brad.

Brad: Hi everyone, it's great to be here thanks for having me.

[Overview of Brad’s Journey- 01:01]

Shirley: So great to have you here, Brad. Why don't we start off with a brief introduction about yourself and an overview of your pre-medical journey.

Brad: So I'm from Pearl City, grew up in Pearl City and I went to Pearl City high school. My pre-medical journey is pretty long, it's kind of weird. When I graduated high school I didn't know what I wanted to do so actually the first year of college got really bad grades and was academically suspended. I joined the Army and did a bunch of other things and then eventually I found myself working in diplomatic security, which is where I got interested in medicine. My background is this spans a period of like 10 to 15 years and I realized while doing interviews that no one really wants to know all of that information and it's actually counterproductive to try to explain all of it and while these people might actually even have my CV sitting in front of them they'll still get things wrong about it. So you really need to like create basically an elevator pitch, which is something I learned while doing research -- like just a concise little statement that explains this is who I am and this is what I’m trying to do so really what I would explain is that out of high school I didn't really know what i wanted to do I just blundered my way into the Army and then I blundered my way into diplomatic security. While I was working there we worked in very small teams overseas and there were medical people on our teams and we had to cross train in every other specialty because our teams were so small. So while I was cross-training with the medical people I discovered I really loved what they were doing that's how I got interested in medicine.

Kellie: For our listeners out there could you explain a little bit about what diplomatic security is... and I guess… because I have no idea.

Brad: So we worked, um this was not in the Army this was working as a civilian and we worked for the State Department under contract to the State Department so we would take diplomats around Baghdad or Kabul, or wherever they needed to go because the State Department doesn't have the number of security people that they need to do that mission so they hired ex-military people to do that for them

Shirley: And like you mentioned earlier it was actually during this job that you became interested in medicine. Can you go into a little bit more detail about that?

Brad: Okay, well so the medical people that we work with were they were all at least paramedics. A lot of them had military medical experience which is a lot higher than like some paramedic experience, so they would teach us a lot of stuff. Like you know they teach you what to do if there's a tension pneumothorax or you know how to apply a tourniquet properly things like that we learned how to do IVs, a lot of technical skills but also a lot of it was, they would put together scenarios of like something happen so you'll run into this room. There's this person on the ground with fake blood on them and you know you've worked through what you think happened to them and what you need to do and that was really interesting to me. So that's what was kind of what got me started in this field and why I became interested.

[Going back to school- 03:50]

Shirley: Well brad that was such an amazing start to this interview, so inspiring and you took such an unconventional path so what steps did you take to finally apply to medical school so

Brad: Once I decided I wanted to become a doctor it was clear that I needed to do a bunch of undergraduate classes because my undergraduate majors were, I double majored in history and economics so I had very little science. So I knew I had to go back to undergraduate classes so I came back to UH [Manoa]. I did a bunch like, about two years of undergraduate classes and I feel your pain if you're doing something like this because UH doesn't offer classes in a logical order so you end up wasting a lot of time. But, I did that and I started doing research in a lab that here actually that does research on malaria that was something additional I did on top of my undergraduate classes also after that did a graduate certificate in Tropical Medicine, so it's like kind of like the first year of a Master's degree in Tropical Medicine so that was really fun. Then I started working as a scribe and as an MA (medical assistant) at the same time and that was after I had applied for the first time and not got in. And after about a year I stopped being a scribe and just continued working as an MA and I reapplied and got in.

Shirley: So you mentioned that you know you double majored in history and economics. There will be students out there who also major non-science majors. Were there any challenges about going back to school and then being a non-science major and taking all these hardcore science classes?

Brad: No, I didn't find it really any, anything different. Like obviously the class subjects were very different, like history classes you're writing long papers all the time versus physics classes where you're working out relatively short mathematical problems. So actually, I'll take that back I took calculus a long time ago and going back into physics was uh yeah that was fun. That's all I’m gonna say about that [haha].

[Why MD?- 05:41]

Kellie: So going back to your experience overseas and seeing what the medics do, how did you know that medicine was what you wanted to do and not, I guess like being a paramedic [correction: EMT] yourself or doing something like PA (Physician Assistant) or DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice)? How did you know medicine was what you wanted to do?

Brad: That's a good question, so the people I work with were paramedics so I was able to talk to them a lot about what being a paramedic was like for them and I learned pretty quickly that, so they don't actually get to fix a lot of the problems they're just getting people to the hospital as quick as they can -- trying to keep things from getting worse. That's a big part of their job which, while I'm not criticizing at all, that was why a lot of them worked there because they were frustrated with the limitations of their job. Like they had a lot of extra education prior to becoming paramedics with the military and then when they got home and they could only be paramedics they were kind of frustrated with it. Similarly, our medical supervisor was a PA so I could talk, I talked to him a lot. He taught me a lot of stuff and it was amazing just getting to talk to him, but he was another person who he kind of steered me like maybe you should think about becoming a doctor and I'm really glad I listened to it.

[UH Tropical Medicine Program and Malaria Research- 06:48]

Shirley: That's so awesome, Brad! I just had a question about the Tropical Medicine program. That's very interesting that you took a year to do that, what got you started or why did you even join that program?

Brad: When I first got interested in medicine, I used to hang out with the PA that I worked with, they had a bunch of books on their bookshelf and one of the ones i kept reading was I think was Manson's Tropical Medicine, might have been Hunter’s but i can't remember. But like they have all these cool pictures of horrifying diseases, horrifying infectious diseases so I was really interested in that. So that was why, that's partly how I got interested in malaria and worked in a malaria lab here. But also partially why I ended up doing the graduate certificate.

Kellie: So you were just reading an infectious disease textbook for fun??

Brad: I'll think of it as like looking at pictures. I was just looking to look at pictures and they had cool pictures whereas if you go to like a dermatology textbook they have some gross pictures

Kellie: So is infectious disease something you're considering or emergency med or kind of, I guess it's super early to tell now but...

Brad: I was considering, I actually really wanted to do infectious diseases but then as I worked as an MA for an infectious disease doctor, I realized that they don't get to see like a lot of the cool diseases that you would see in that textbook. A lot of it is more like these are really important diseases and things that

people have to work with every day but I didn't think I would like that as much so I'm sort of leaning against that right now.

Shirley: But did this UH tropical medicine program inspire you more to go into medicine or…

Brad: I already knew that this is what I wanted to do so this was kind of just me filling time on the way to the to here. But it didn't make me want to be in medicine any more any less it would just, it just kind of shaped within medicine where i thought i might want to go.

Shirley: So, Brad you also told me that you went on a trip to africa somewhere can you expand on that and was that related to the tropical medicine program?

Brad: Yes it was, it was part of the Department of Tropical Medicine's MHRT program. So every year they'll send undergraduates to a variety of foreign countries and you work, you do research in these foreign countries. You live there for about two months in the summer and this amazing program and I'd like recommend any of you who are undergraduates at UH to pursue that if you have the chance. There's actually a stipend also they'll pay for you to go there they'll give you money while you're there and you get to do some really cool research. So yeah I got to go to Cameroon in Africa and it was an awesome experience. I recommend it if you're in research.

Shirley: What kind of research were you doing out?

Brad: There, I was doing research into malaria, which makes sense because there's lots of malaria in West Africa. And a lot of it was based on ties that my mentor had created with a professor who lived in Africa, she's from Cameroon so it was interesting to see how like the networking worked out and how these ties between these two institutions on other sides of the globe were made.

Shirley: And did you just apply through you know online and were there any fees associated with that?

Brad: There are no fees associated with application, everyone does apply online, but I guess the sort of the leg up I had was that I had already been doing research in a lab at the department so I kind of knew a lot of people. And there's like an interview process so I guess there I was somewhat familiar like at least they'd probably see me around so they probably knew somewhat about me I guess.

[Balancing marriage, parenthood, and applying to medical school- 10:24]

Kellie: So Brad it seems like you had to do a lot of balancing -- you were doing a lot of these extracurricular activities on top of school and I hear that you're a dad and a husband and so that's even more balancing. So I guess how did you go about making sure that you're able to spend time in each of these different aspects of your life?

Brad: I'm actually a really bad person to ask that question because I'm really not good at it. So part of like the really lucky thing is that we have family here obviously having grown up here so for our daughter, our family watches her like when my wife's at work or when I'm at school. So it's amazing having like a strong support structure and that's something really important and if you don't have that, things, life is just gonna be hard. There's not really a way around that I don't think. As far as balance and how you balance, I think we had a lot of the way we did things was based on how we used to do things from when I was gone for years because we were already married for a lot of my time while I was in diplomatic security so Naomi was used to me being gone we talked a lot. Just, we were used to just talking basically versus actually you know being at home and like eating dinner together and things like that. So that somewhat helped and I think talking is, or communication actually, I should say is a very important part of the balancing.

Kellie: So was your wife supportive of your decision to go back to school and kind of take on this extra like medical school, right, is a long journey so she was kind of supportive throughout all of that?

Brad: Yes I think part of it is because maybe she was also tired of me being gone. Well a lot of it was I was tired of being gone for all the time and she was probably also tired of that so she was very supportive and that, that's amazing. It would have been really hard if she didn't want that. Although, I guess that would have been weird because I was tired of that job anyway.

Kellie: So Brad, you said you had a daughter, do you just have one kid?

Brad: Yep, just one.

Kellie: How old is she?

Brad: She just turned four.

Kellie: Wow! And her name is…

Brad:Aurora.

Kellie: Oh that's so cute! I guess for potential listeners out there, if you have any advice on how to go about addressing having kids or having a family to support. In your application is that something you talk about like in your personal statement and secondaries, just something you kind of wait to see if it comes up in interviews or do you feel like it needs to be addressed at all?

Brad: I think that's very much dependent on the person like for someone say whose family played a role in their decisions to enter medicine I think it would need to be addressed in the personal statement probably. I don't remember exactly where I put where I talked about my daughter but I believe I talked a lot about her in my secondaries like especially to UH because she was a large part of the reason why I thought UH would be an awesome school for me. Having family here who can watch her like the strong support structure and so she was an important part of that so I talked a lot about her in my secondaries.

Shirley: So what was your biggest worry if you did have any about going back to school, you know based on the situation that you had?

Brad: Probably not getting into medical school, it's a pretty big gamble especially since I'm pretty old who knew if they would want to take a chance on me, But I guess I got lucky.

Kellie: So now that you're at JABSOM, do you feel like you've been supported by the institution and your classmates and you know faculty, staff here?

Brad: Yes very much so, I feel really lucky that I got to go here. Besides the obvious that Aurora has family to watch her, I found the school to be A) very supportive also B) all the students I work with are amazing. Shirley is an example, she's basically organizes all of our study groups and you guys have no idea how much she does like every time I volunteer for something, I get an email from Shirley being like okay we'll see you at this time and then this is not like the same group that I'm volunteering with this is like multiple different groups and it's always Shirley who I hear back from. It's really interesting but yeah so that's the kind of people that we have here luckily. I'm not like that, I'm much more reclusive but everyone here is supportive and I feel like everyone here is working together there's like that sort of attitude.

Kellie: So I'm going to throw you a scenario if you got into a school on the mainland and JABSOM wasn't an option I guess, what would the plan have been for you and your family?

Brad: So luckily my wife's job, it's kind of a specialty and it's in demand so I applied at a number of other places and near all those places there were people who would whom my wife would be able to work for so we would probably like… the way we approached actually was we'll cross that bridge when we get there and luckily we didn't have to cross that bridge, but she probably would have moved with me and Aurora and we would have had to figure out child care. She would have worked while I was going to school. It would have been hard but probably doable.

Shirley: Well it all worked out and you’re here at JABSOM. So it's about the fit right, Brad? So what advice would you give an aspiring physician who is either changing careers or as a parent struggling to figure out where to begin in all of this?

Brad: I think luckily if you're listening to this you already have a good idea what you want to do which is the hard part or was the hard part for me like, obviously it took me over 10 years after high school to get to that point. And then once I had a direction it was relatively easy, I was just figuring out how to get there. So I looked up you know the UH, the JABSOM website, what classes do they require. Looked up a bunch of other schools, what prereqs do they require, you know, build a list of what you need to do. Then again, UH doesn't schedule things the most convenient so what other things are important that I can put in because like some semesters I wouldn't be taking that many classes. Yeah, it's sort of situation dependent I would say. It depends on where you are, what resources are available to you, can you get involved in research, is that something you're even interested in, would you prefer working as a scribe or working in some more clinical capacity. There's a lot of different things you can do and it's really I would say probably in my experience it seems like they'll all work, just you have to figure out what you want to do.

Kellie: For students who are, I guess for yeah, maybe career changers or people who are thinking of going back to school like if they're teetering on that thought, was there one thing that you think helped confirm that decision for you? Maybe like working as an MA or getting that clinical experience? But to kind of push them to see whether or not this is something that they should, again, like gamble everything on?

Brad: I would say my case was probably the clinical experience. So when I was still working in diplomatic security and I was taking classes to be an EMT, I started volunteering at this local military base, there was a medical clinic and getting to see like what the doctor there did every day, that was one of the things like okay, this is actually something that i want to do. Because I saw what he was able to do and what his job was like, so I think if you want to be a clinic and I thought that I wanted to be a clinical type of doctor. I think you need to go and find experience with the clinical situation. If you're more interested in research, probably go look into a research type of thing and see if that's more for you.

[Application Timeline- 18:07]

Shirley: Can you tell the listeners kind of the timeline that you took, when did you take the MCAT and when did you submit your applications?

Brad: So I submitted late in the cycle when I, the first time I submitted. I recommend you not do that. I took the MCAT, so when I went to Africa, which I told you guys about earlier, I was actually studying for the MCAT at the time which is also probably unwise and then i came back and I [took], there was, I had to finalize the research I was doing while studying for the MCAT, which I had scheduled for several weeks after I got back. So I had a lot going on at that time and I was also trying to come back and spend time with Aurora who I had not seen for two months and she was about six months old so there was a lot going on during that time. If you can space things like that out, it's probably better for you. I'm lucky enough to feel that I'm a good test taker, if you're not a good test taker, take more time. Plan it out better. So I took the MCAT and I put together my personal statement, which is my real weakness besides interviews and I submitted late I think 2017, the first time. But yeah, so it was several months later that I submitted my application which is quite a while after applications open so you shouldn't do that. You should be able to submit as soon as they open and I should have planned ahead instead of getting all wrapped up into my research. I should have planned ahead and structured everything so I could apply earlier.

Shirley: So Brad if you're comfortable and you're willing to share with our listeners, what were your stats i guess when you did apply the first time?

Brad: So when I applied the first time, I was still taking some of my graduate classes so this is more current this is actually the stats for my second time, but my undergraduate GPA was cumulative 3.57. My graduate GPA ended up being a 4.0 and my MCAT was 518. So another important thing to note here is that my the first year of college my GPA was under 2.0 so you can come back from that like you should have a good explanation and like, I had to explain to people that I didn't really know what I wanted to do and I was just kind of blowing off classes at the time. This was a long time ago so I'm not really the same person I was then. Another thing to note is that like I said I feel like I'm a good test taker so I'm lucky in that sense. If your MCAT is not that high, that doesn't mean you're not gonna get into med school. Like I feel like my MCAT had to make up for the fact that I'm socially awkward and I'm bad at interviews and I write bad essays. So everyone there's a balance with everything, so don't worry if you don't have a 4.0 graduate GPA or something like that.

Kellie: I guess like in a broader sense of your application, did you find out ways that having a degree in history or economics gave you an advantage maybe over someone who did do the normal science route?

Brad: Not to a huge extent, in some ways like the CARS section, the like the essay thing that was, like it was kind of similar to the things that I was used to because I was used to reading long papers and then interpreting what I think is going on. And then in some sense that plus my longer background and then I guess a typical undergraduate helped me with interviews because I could speak sort of knowledgeably about the weird oddball questions you sometimes get pitched. But it's not, you know, I don't think that was a super important part of what got me in.

Shirley: And you said you know your weaknesses were your personal statements and interviews, what did you do to prepare for that or for someone who's also struggling with that problem, what would you say to them?

Brad: So for the personal statement have someone else read it. I didn't really do that the first time. I had someone the second time, I had my friend's wife read it and she has a degree in like English so that was very helpful for me and I actually totally rewrote it after that because it was pretty bad, but as for... sorry what was the second half?

Shirley: The interviews.

Brad: Oh the interviews, practice. So I didn't want to seem like I was coming off as rehearsed so I did not practice that's the absolutely, like it doesn't matter that I would have come off as rehearsed if I had rehearsed, at least I would have had like these half decent answers and maybe I would have got it in the first time. But yeah definitely practice and have knowledgeable answers for like the broad sorts of categories of questions they might ask you. You know you don't have to have an answer for every exact question but think about and write down answers you might give for questions like, where do you see yourself in 10 years or what are your greatest strengths and weaknesses or things like that.

[Reapplying- 23:01]

Shirley: So Brad you mentioned that you are a reapplicant, did you take time off between the first time you applied and the second time you applied and what did you do differently?

Brad: So between the first and the second time I applied, an important thing is identify what your weaknesses were. I, like as soon as I walked out of my first interview I knew what my weakness was, that one was obvious to me. But also if you happen to be an applicant here and you don't get in, the Director of Admissions often will schedule I think they're called like post-application interviews or something where she can talk to you about what your strengths and weaknesses were and that was like actually a huge part of what I ended up doing for the next two years. So I didn't immediately apply the next year because I didn't really know what I wanted to say how things were different, because actually by the time you find out you haven't gotten in you're pretty much having to submit for the next cycle like within a month and I hadn't even started really doing anything different yet so I didn't, so I basically skipped that cycle. I didn't really know what I wanted to say or how things were different so I started working as a scribe and as an MA and that really reinforced that I’m actually heading into something that I want to do and I was able to write about them knowledgeably and speak knowledgeably about why I want to do what I want to do and that was an important part I think of why I was accepted the second time. So yeah, so I basically redid all my personal statements obviously, and then I practiced for interviews and then I got in the second time, thankfully.

Shirley: So going along the lines of what you just mentioned, so we're now in our third week of March and students who are applying for the 2020-2021 application cycle were recently notified if they gained acceptance to JABSOM or not -- it was, it's definitely a stressful time as I remember it, I'm a reapplicant as well and when I found out I was waitlisted and ultimately did not gain acceptance. I had to redo everything and it was definitely a challenging time for me and affected me mentally but what was the experience like for you?

Brad: I have to say it wasn't a surprise to me that I wasn't accepted because I felt my interviews were really terrible so not being a surprise was somewhat like psychologically protective. Like it was just okay it confirmed what I already knew that I didn't get in but then it became a problem, well what do I do now. So that was sort of the hard part until I had that meeting with the Director of Admissions where you hear that or you hear about the things you should change and that was helpful because it also gave me some direction as to things, besides the obvious you know work on, your interviews. It put some ideas in my head as to other things I could do to improve.

Shirley: So it was really great that you got in the second time and rightfully so, but let's put another scenario out there and say that you didn't get in the second time. What would you have done then?

Brad: Oh that's a difficult question because I’m really old and I've been at this for a while. I don't know and a lot of it I think would have been dependent on what, see the post-interview thing that I talked about earlier was the Director of Admissions like what she identified as weaknesses, what I could improve so that's important. And then also do I start thinking about do I need to like find another path like being a PA or an NP or something like that. I don't think I would have enjoyed that as much which is why I persisted in this round. But that would have been I guess an option. It would’ve, that would have been fine I guess but I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much.

Kellie: So while we're on the topic of reapplication, Shirley I know you've had your own experience with that, so if you kind of want to share what it was like for you?

Shirley: Yeah so similar to Brad, I’m also a reapplicant but not just once, not just twice, I'm a three-time reapplicant. Nothing I'm proud of for sure, but it was definitely lessons learned and made me into the resilient person that I am today. The second time I didn't get in, I was waitlisted and didn't get in from JABSOM and so I really, like Brad, had to think about if I needed to change paths to think about NP maybe or PA. But with the clinical experience that I was getting at the time, I was a research assistant and a clinical research associate so all those experiences cumulatively made me realize that I still wanted to go into medicine. I didn't want to give up on the dream that I had. So I pushed through. I actually retook the MCAT for the third time and did better on my interviews because that was also a weak point for myself. I included stories from my clinical experiences and actually my patient interactions that I've had on the job helped me with the interviews a whole lot so definitely I would advise anybody who's listening to do some sort of clinical experience. It does help you with your communication skills and bring up topics that you could discuss during the interviews. Ultimately that third time I finally gained admission I was so happy I could tear up right now, but it's totally worth it. If you're like me, someone who's a third-time reapplicant or even more, just don't give up if this is something you have wanted for a long time and you know that this is a career for you.

Brad: I would like to say that I'm kind of surprised like, I assumed this is Shirley's first time applying because Shirley is such a phenomenal person that like you don't expect her to have been rejected like once or even, I mean so this is really weird I didn't know this. I've known Shirley for like since July, so interesting.

Kellie: I was just gonna say like I'm so happy for you, Shirley but I honestly think like all of these like things you have to go through is just making you like a better student you're so organized you're so on top of things and I feel like you gained a lot of skills like interacting with patients through all of the things that you were doing, you know, in your time before med school. And so for any of you out there like don't look at it as a negative I think what you're doing with your time is all like it's all going to be worth it, all going to be valuable, all going to work towards making you a better physician.

Shirley: Once you do gain admissions, you're right where everybody else is you're a first year medical student you're on your way to become a great physician, so yeah, keep on going.

[Starting medical school during COVID-19- 29:34]

Kellie: To kind of wrap things up we're just gonna throw a last question to Brad, if you could summarize you know your first year of med school how it's been so far, you know with your family, with COVID, are you having fun? Word around the street is you’re great baker. Like how you manage stress, just yeah what are your thoughts?

Brad: So I guess to kinda go with COVID, it was interesting like I actually, I don't want to make light of such a serious situation in which hundreds of thousands of people have died but it's in some ways it made med school easier. Because you could just go on classes from home, you don't have to get all the way down there and find parking and deal with all those like minor annoyances. So while I would totally not wish that COVID happened again it actually made things kind of easy. As for family, I don't know it's about what I thought so luckily we have family who was able to watch Aurora for us so without that, things would be really difficult but she's also started preschool so that's nice and it takes some stress off family. As for what med school is like, it's a lot of fun and I'm really enjoying it because very few of my classes prior to this were classes where I was like oh this is useful, this is something that i might need to know in the future. There were classes like anatomy and physiology, which I highly recommend if you have a chance to take those classes as an undergraduate but now all of our classes pretty much are useful so that's amazing and it's like one of those things that's like motivating. To speak to like the stress of med school, I don't know like everyone has their own thing like I make cookies sometimes, which Shirley steals, but

Shirley: They're so good by the way!

Brad: I’m always disappointed in them, everyone else likes them but I'm disappointed so I'm finding something new. I'm making cheesecakes now.

Kellie: I love cheesecakes by the way...

Brad: So now that we've all been vaccinated we're gonna be back to in-person PBL which will be interesting because it's not something any of us have really done or not something I've done before so hopefully, I think we've been pretty successful so far. I hope we keep that going. So also yes I've given Shirley my email if any of you have questions that you think that I'm the best person to answer please feel free to email me. If any of you want practice with interviews or anything like that, yeah email me. I'm not so good at reading personal statements but I can try. But yeah, I'd be happy to try to help anyone who I can.

[Closing- thank you Brad Thomas! - 32:20]

Shirley: Great, thanks for that offer Brad! We will have his email posted on the website and so that wraps up the episode for today. Thank you Kellie for being a great, awesome co-host and Brad being such a great interviewee. Your story is so amazing and hopefully inspirational to a lot of people out there. Also please don't forget to fill out the feedback survey on our website just to give us any comments or suggestions about this episode or any episode that you have listened to so far. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time on JABSOM Journeys.

Primary Host: Anna

Secondary Host: Sarah

Legend: PBL (Problem-Based Learning), MD1 (1st unit of JABSOM curriculum), UW (University of Washington), MBA (Master of Business Administration), UH (University of Hawaii), HPH (Hawaiʻi Pacific Health)

[Intro & Overview of Landon’s Journey]

Anna: Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of JABSOM Journeys where we share the pre-medical experiences of current first-year medical students at the John A. Burns School of Medicine in hopes of inspiring and guiding you on your own paths. My name is Anna and i'll be your host for today, & we also have Sarah joining us as a co-host.

Sarah: Hey everybody, excited for today's episode.

Anna: Today we do have the pleasure of talking to Landon Morikawa! Landon was in my first PBL group back in MD1 and has since been an awesome classmate and friend. Welcome to the podcast, Landon!

Landon: I appreciate you guys having me on. What's up guys, my name is Landon Morikawa, I'm a first-year medical student here at JABSOM. I was born and raised here in Hawaiʻi, grew up in Mānoa, I went to Punahou and graduated from there in 2014. Went to Seattle University for undergraduate, graduated there in 2018, then immediately after that I did a Master's program at Loyola [University] Chicago, just the one-year thing there and then I took a gap year and now I'm here at UH JABSOM, so yeah, awesome, thank you so much for joining us today!

[Deciding on Medicine - 01:22]

Anna: Let’s get started with some questions! So as someone who grew up with family in medicine, did you yourself always know that you wanted to be a doctor? Or did you ever consider any other careers?

Landon: Interestingly enough, I don't necessarily think it had much of an influence at least when I was younger. I guess I did grow up in my dad's office and he would show me a lot of like “gross” things, and so in a sense it almost scared me away. But I think my biggest influence was, I have a brother with disabilities and so actually kind of just growing up with him showed me a lot about what it meant to kind of be in another person's shoes and whatnot, and it was cool to have that parallel with you know seeing my–both my parents are actually in medicine–so it was easy to kind of put like two and two together and it's kind of what motivated me to end up here. Fortunately, i'm on that path so far.

Anna: Awesome your family is probably very excited that you're here at JABSOM.

Sarah: So going back to your experiences with your brother, do you mind sharing what you learned from those experiences?

Landon: Yeah, so definitely like lifelong-worth of experiences with him, but Logan's my older brother, he's three years older. I have three older brothers but he's the one right above me, and so because of that we kind of did everything growing up together and he has disabilities. It's kind of the type where you wouldn't necessarily suspect it at first, but he does kind of have hearing problems, some of his social skills are a little underdeveloped; but that said, I grew up next to him, he was like my best friend and so every time we did something, I always had to consider you know is he going to be okay, is he going to, you know, does he need any special precautions or something along those lines. So for example, we did boy scouts together growing up and it was cool to be able to see him go ahead and do stuff on his own, but also I was a support system there for him. I'm kind of like a safety net in a sense and I think just developing that frame of mind that whatever i'm doing, i'm always considering, you know, is it okay for him. It's something that you just learn to apply to relationships throughout your life, not only with your family but with friends and whatnot and I think it kind of for me, it's kind of just been present at every step. So in terms of my personal statement and whatnot, it was primarily based on Logan and so that's definitely a unique situation for me, but something i'm super grateful for. And it's super cool because he's a chef now, so yeah.

[Attending College in Seattle - 04:15]

Anna: That's really awesome. So how did you end up deciding on Seattle for college?

Landon: I gotta think back for that one. Okay so I graduated in 2014 and I think when I

applied to schools, I knew I wanted to stay on the west coast, I wanted to be close to home. But I did have the fortune to be able to, you know, go to the mainland, I know that's not always the case for people. But I did still want to be close to home and what I kind of found was like going to a private university, they provided more like scholarship and aid as opposed to maybe some of these bigger public universities, especially as an out of out-of-state kid, and so I applied to a bunch of smaller private universities on the west coast, and I knew for me I just liked the vibe of being in the city, I just kind of like that upbeat like this is where it's at, this is the place to be kind-of-vibe and Seattle just has so much to it. I knew it was an attractive option, so they did give me like a solid scholarship so that played a role in it, but I knew the school itself was a solid school in terms of pre-med and whatnot. I think for my graduating class at Punahou, there were like 24 kids–which is kind of insane–just going to this one college. And so yeah, even though it was smaller, you know I thought I was going to be going to a Pac-12 school like as a little kid because I wanted to cheer for the football teams and whatnot. I was lucky enough though to have a buddy who went to UW and so I could kind of get that Pac-12 experience if i wanted to just up the road, but yeah I was super glad I went to Seattle... and I think, Sarah, you went to UW right?

Sarah: Yeah, I went to University of Washington and one of the reasons I decided to go away for college was that growing up in like a rural community, a small community, I kind of wanted to see like what's the city life, what's the mainland about, just to get a whole different experience and so I thought that University of Washington kind of fit my ideas and so it also had a really good Bioengineering program, which is what I was most interested in at the time. But I also did not go to visit it–just google images, all the google maps, that's all you need, don't go, save your money. It was a great experience!

Anna: Yeah I actually went to UW myself, but I had a very different start to my college career from most people. So I went to UW only for the first quarter of my freshman year, it was crazy because it was my top school when I applied to colleges and I was so so excited to go to UW– I had visited so I didn't do what Sarah did but I did visit and I loved it and Seattle was a place that I kind of grew up in because I did have family there. But during my first quarter at UW, I kind of ended up having this feeling that I was not in the right place and I didn't feel maybe as supported as I had wanted to starting out in college, so I ended up facing a choice between returning back home to Hawaiʻi or going somewhere that I had my sister living as well as a lot of my friends, they were living in Orange County in California. And so I kind of didn't want to give up on, you know, learning that independence that you get after moving to the mainland from Hawaiʻi so i ended up choosing to go to Orange County and I started out at Orange Coast College before transferring to University of California, Irvine so it was just a really good learning experience because it was definitely different from everyone else's pre-med experience going to three different colleges, but it developed a lot of my independence and also trusting myself because obviously it still worked out and, you know, changes may come during college but you can still get back to being on your path to medicine or wherever else you're trying to go. So I don't regret, you know, making that decision, it was the best choice for me too. But it's, it's interesting that we all were in Seattle at least for a point in time! I definitely miss Seattle too, I absolutely love Seattle, it wasn't like anything about the school, just personal decisions.

Landon: Yeah, unfortunately she's a big Seahawks fan which is a…

Anna: I know, I am a Seahawks fan! Which is why I was extra excited to go to Seattle! (i'm still a Seahawks fan if anyone's wondering).

Landon: It's a shame hahaha

[Interest in Finance - A Unique Talking-Point - 08:53]

Anna: How did you decide on your major and actually your minor too when you went to college?

Landon: Good question, so I would say when I started undergraduate I actually wasn't committed to pre-med and I was still a pre-major at the time, so I didn't know what I wanted to do, I was kind of in between medicine and finance actually. So very polar opposites there, but i think when eventually I had to figure out exactly what I wanted to settle on, I realized like in the long term, I wanted to be able to have that interaction with people and be able to help people and that's what drove me to pre-med. That said, I started off in biology and then I realized like, “oh I don't want to take all these botany courses” and whatnot so I ended up actually getting a recommendation from one of my advisors and so I ended up in cellular and molecular biology which sounds fancy, but it's really just biology minus plant stuff. Yeah and so that was cool and then I still had that finance interest so fortunately, I only had to take like I think it was six courses at Seattle University to fulfill that. It was super interesting because it was totally different from science but it's also a super good talking point for like interviews and whatnot because it's kind of something unique, I think most med students don't have a finance minor

Anna: Yeah did you end up bringing that up or did the interviewers ask you about the finance degree?

Landon: I want to say most of my interviews, it came up at some point, not by me but by the interviewers and it's cool because I was able to speak to it in terms of medicine too because–whether we, you know, want to accept it or not–a lot of medicine is like money and business and stuff and so kind of having that background and just having that general understanding of how stuff works is super useful. And I think being able to portray that to interviewers who are asking questions is something that may come off as, I don't know, impressive–or at least I hope that's what it sounded like!

Sarah: I think what's good about going to college and kind of going on this medical pathway too is that you can have interests outside medicine, right, so for you, it was finance. So what specifically about finance got you that, like the spark or that passion for it, to get a minor in it? Because when I hear finance, I think yeah money, so what about that got you excited?

Landon: I'd say it was actually the last class I took in high school at Punahou. It was called money management and it was taught by this old guy, Mr Gross, but he was like super, I don't know, he just introduced us to everything about like different ways to make money and it was just so unique to me because at that point you're not taught anything about money and you do realize like “oh this is going to be kind of important later in life.” And so I think I was just fascinated by that and it was so new to me and so I didn't want to rule it out as like a potential career option. And you know at the same time too, like i'm sure for anyone listening, you're going to have a bunch of friends in business and so it's like another–I don't know if it's a hobby–but it's another talking point and a point of interest that you can like discuss with friends and whatnot. So it's always going to be relevant, it's a lifelong skill, and if you know me, i'm super practical so I was like “oh this can be applied regardless if I go into it or not.”

Anna: That is a really good point though, I know a lot of students who attend medical schools that offer dual degrees, they end up getting an MBA, that's a really popular degree because, like you said, it is a business so it's good to have that knowledge going into it.

Landon: For sure, yeah, I wish I would have done an MBA but yeah, that's alright, yeah, yeah that's a future problem

Anna: Concurrent residency and MBA haha

Landon: Oh yeah, yeah, no problem whatsoever.

[Learning to Balance - 13:08]

Anna: So you've also mentioned to me that you've had both medical and non-medical jobs during undergrad how did you balance that with school and you know all the other extracurriculars as a pre-med?

Landon: Yeah so that was a challenge. At least at the start, I definitely didn't have an answer. When I started undergrad, I was really open to a lot of different things. I was trying to, you know, live the college life, I was joining clubs left and right and that became really overwhelming, unfortunately like my grades took a hit because of that, so for me it was really [about] understanding how to prioritize and that's tricky because it's a question that everybody has. So I was able to reach out to a lot of advisors, mentors, other doctors that i'd worked with previously and they just let me know what things I should be focusing on if i was serious about a career in medicine and so that meant prioritizing things such as volunteering which i made sure to always have some sort of volunteering option throughout undergrad. [Also] I did know I wanted to make money because I wanted to be able to support myself and not have to rely on my parents at least not for like the meals and whatnot, and so I could have worked a bunch of hours like upwards of 30, but I kept it at like 10 to 15, and it's kind of hard to do because you're, you know, I want to work but I need to focus on school. Fortunately my position was pretty simple where I could do work [and] I could do homework during work, so if you can do that that's a huge plus. I actually worked at the gym and so it was like, it was a lot of office work so that's why I could pull up my laptop and do homework if i needed to. But on top of that yeah making sure that I get in the hospital to whether that's just volunteering or shadowing doctors that was a priority as well. But I mean I think if you ask most pre-meds, there's not a secret formula that you can like hit on right from the beginning, you're gonna have to realize okay I need to cut out some things, I need to prioritize this and it depends from person to person so it might feel like super junk to have to cut out something but if it's messing especially with your grades like it was for me like you really need to make sure you're cognizant of that and talk with your advisors. They're super helpful, it's never a bad conversation.

Anna: Yeah, well it's obvious now meeting you in medical school that you're really good at balancing school with hobbies and enjoying life and extracurriculars as well, so do you think learning how to prioritize during undergrad really helped you with that now?

Landon: Yeah absolutely, I felt like undergrad was really a kind of self-reflection process, i think for the first time in my life it was because when you grow up in like high school and stuff you're still trying to figure yourself out but you're kind of living in the moment. And maybe like the real world or whatever is not that apparent to you and so once you get into undergrad, you have to realize like okay I need to figure out what i'm gonna do with my life. You really have to understand who you are, what brings you joy in life, what is most important to you, and so undergrad was just a process of me understanding how to best approach those questions, how to answer those questions the best I could. And so I was able to prioritize and fortunately– I appreciate the compliment, Anna– but I guess it's like carrying over into med school. So yeah balance is super important, I know applying for med schools can seem like hell sometimes but always remember to give yourself a break, go exercise–even though Anna doesn't believe I exercise hahaha–

Anna: hahahah yeah, it’s debatable–

Landon: Hahaha yeah but yeah, never get too caught up or like do your best to not stress yourself out because they could definitely get the best of you.

[Deciding to Attend Graduate School - 17:29]

Anna: Awesome, great advice! So after undergrad tell us more about what you did next and how you decided to go to graduate school.

Landon: Yeah so graduate school was, I would say it was a necessary step for me. It's one of those things that some people might see as like a shot to their ego in some senses, and maybe that's what I thought of it at first, but my situation when I graduated from undergrad was… because like those first few years I was kind of screwing around maybe not the best student, my cumulative GPA wasn't as high as I wanted it to be and i knew it was on the lower end of like a competitive medical student. So I had done some work with a doctor and she became my main mentor and when I talked with her, she was straight up and she was like you probably need to go to some sort of post-bacc program to kind of show med schools that you do have what it takes to succeed with the more difficult curriculum in medical school. You know deep down, I felt like I had what it took but obviously like the GPA speaks for itself so I applied to a bunch, or maybe not a bunch, maybe like a handful of [graduate] programs and I wanted to make sure I wasn't spending too much time or money on the programs. I mean they are expensive but I chose this one-year master's program at Loyola Chicago specifically. I chose that one because it was kind of one of the oldest programs and it's, I think that one had like a 90% matriculation rate after you graduated from that master's program and it was really cool because it was only one year, eight classes, and I got to go to Chicago which was totally different. I had never been more east of or more east than phoenix so totally new environment. Met a lot of great people and that was where I like totally locked in on school. I'd never tried harder before. But yeah I performed better than I ever had and it was, it was super cool because not only did I develop more just knowledge about science and whatnot, but I developed way better study habits just learning how to be independent and understanding how I can best succeed in school. So not only was it just to help bump up my GPA, but it really was helping to develop and further progress my study abilities and it's translated to medical school in a sense where I feel a lot more I think comfortable even if the material is a little harder because the jump from undergrad to med school can be steep in many cases. So yeah if you're in the position, i'd say where you feel like your GPA is low and maybe it's the reason holding you back, definitely look into these post-bacc programs and you can always ask me questions too because it might seem like something you want to avoid in some cases, but it can be really beneficial and yeah so don't be afraid to look into that.

Anna: For some context would you be comfortable in sharing what your undergrad gpa was and then your grad gpa?

Landon: Yeah, so undergrad, I graduated with a 3.60. I would say though like after sophomore year, I had like a I think it was like a 3.30 something and so that was kind of the breaking point for me where I was like alright, you need to figure something out here because actually in high school, I was one of those like “oh, you know, I can get by without having to study too much. I think yeah, [high school to college was] just one of those transitions that i didn't take seriously. And so I worked to get that 3.30 up to a 3.60 which I mean, I don't know, it may not seem like that big of a jump but like oh my goodness, I can't believe how much harder I worked. Then yeah when I went to grad school, I knew I had to really do well because it was essentially a bat on myself like you need to prove to med schools that you can handle it and so I was able to 4.00 there. I definitely don't want to bring that up too much but I think it just, if anything, I think it's important that for you all who may be, you know, like in a difficult position or feel like you're struggling and may not have the best numbers, like there is a way that you can improve. And if you have the drive, if you have the real desire to get into medicine like go to a Post-Bacc, strut your stuff, you know you gotta really commit to it. And so there's always hope even if it seems kind of grim like after your senior year which it was in my case.

Sarah: Yeah I think what's good too is that, you know, even when you reach that end of your undergraduate education, you can still continue on, like there's always going to be options besides i'm going to apply to medical school straight out of college and take your chances. There's options to go into industry or get a job or you can go through like master's degrees or Post-Bacc programs, so don't just stop at undergraduate goals but think of the broader picture too.

Landon: Yeah absolutely, one more thing to say to that is like– i'm not sure exactly what UH’s Post-Bacc programs look like, I will say that a lot of the ones that I researched were more either midwest or east coast and they're usually one to two year programs. And so depending on what you want to do, you can look into that, and like I said you can always email me with questions but in all likelihood it's probably like spending a year on the east coast which may seem crazy but it's a super cool life experience, especially if you went to UH, you might have just grown up here and been on the island your whole life and so going to the east coast is, it's quite the switch, but it's a super good just growth experience.

Anna: It's nice to know that it's only one year, one or two years too. Right, you’ll have time to come back.

[Returning Home & Choosing JABSOM - 23:58]

Anna: So that kind of goes into our next question about the decision to move back home for medical school. Was it– it seems like maybe it was an easy one or did you always plan to go to JABSOM?

Landon: So the way my application worked was after my master's program, I graduated in may of 2019 and I ended up applying that following cycle, so I had a gap year actually and that gap year, I came back to Hawaiʻi and I worked at Straub [Medical Center]. I was fortunate to kind of find this new position, it's with the bone and joint clinic right there at Straub. It was a research position where we were able to help out with data collection and and also get involved with writing papers, so it's a super good opportunity (I can talk about it more later) but yeah, so once I came home for that, it really kind of solidified to me like I want to be back home [for medical school], JABSOM is number one. That said because I was kind of applying with the mentorship from my past program, I applied probably to like 25 schools initially, which sounds like kind of crazy and I wouldn't say that that's like a number you should necessarily shoot for, it was just, that was my program's recommendation. Another perk to doing a program is like they have so many connections to med schools so a lot of those 25 schools were midwest schools that were affiliated with Loyola, and so in that sense I knew I had like a shoe in, to some extent, at those places. I did end up cutting down that number after secondaries to maybe like 18 or so but JABSOM was number one. Obviously family’s here and so that was huge. Expense, I mean even though we don't want to admit it, money is huge and being able to get in-state tuition compared to paying some astronomical price elsewhere like makes a huge difference unless you're crazy smart or a crazy applicant who has you know great extracurriculars and is able to get a scholarship, that's amazing too, but for me being at home, just it made sense on every level. And I love it too because now that i'm at home with the parents–even though moving back in was a transition–i'm super grateful for my mom's meals, my dad's advice all the time and yeah i'm able to spend time with Logan all the time so that's super cool.

[Getting Involved in Research - 26:38]

Anna: Shifting gears a little bit, can you tell us more about the research you've been involved in and kind of what projects you've worked on?

Landon: Yeah, so I think I first began in research, I want to say the year after my freshman year of undergrad so this is back in 2015. I was actually here, back home in Hawaiʻi. I was fortunate to kind of find the Hawaiʻi Pathologists’ Laboratory Summer Student Internship program. I don't know if it currently is still around, but there are several programs. I know there's one with HPH that you can explore as well but these are super valuable because as an undergrad sometimes it's difficult to find research. I mean it's always difficult to find research but more specifically like clinical research is sparse. You would have to kind of know a doctor, which is kind of hard to develop that connection. But through the [Hawaiʻi Pathologists Laboratory Internship], I was able to link up with a pathologist and I was able to work on data collection and we ended up writing a paper. It actually started off with a poster presentation and that turned into my first first-author paper and so that was something super cool to say I did as a, I think I finished it in my sophomore year of undergrad. After that I knew I wanted to do research at the school itself at Seattle University and so I actually developed a great relationship with one of my biotech professors, Dr. Kaiser. And he was super great because he was super down to let students into his lab and help out with stuff, so that was a different side of research where it was more bench work and so that's when I was pipetting and it was totally different than sitting in front of a computer like looking at chart data. But it was great, it was great because it just diversified like what research was to me. And then I mentioned before briefly, I did come back during my gap year to work at Straub, specifically the Bone Joint Research and Innovation Division and that was super cool because we did spend a lot of time on excel sheets and charts like reviewing data but we were really able to kind of polish our paper-writing skills and whatnot and for me that was cool because I have a particular interest in like Sports Medicine, Orthopedics, and because it was bone and joint like everything was relevant to my interests. So even though you look at a science paper and you're just like this looks disgusting, when it's actually something you're interested in, you're a lot more excited to read it. And so for me I realized like oh, you know, this is especially–to write about it too–it was a lot more engaging because I did have an interest in Sports Medicine. I think most students know this, research is, I think sarah was mentioning this earlier, that you're either on one side of the spectrum, [you] either love it or you hate it and so it's not necessarily for everyone but if you've never done it before I definitely encourage you to give it a shot, because to be able to say that you were part of a project that maybe helped a physician come up with a new technique or something like that is pretty cool and when you google your name on the internet it'll come up to it's not just some like google image from when you were really young.

Anna: Awesome, well like you kind of mentioned, it can be really difficult to find projects to get involved in and that was actually something I struggled with in undergrad. Personally I did not do any research in undergrad–which I do not recommend to pre-meds, it's definitely like the minority who don't do research in undergrad [as pre-meds], and like Landon mentioned it's a really good experience for you to have and that way you can also get involved with research during medical school–but just going back to the difficulty of it, do you have any kind of baseline advice for undergraduate students trying to get involved in their first project?

Landon: Yeah, for me it was scary to say the least, I've always been a very independent type of worker and so reaching out to ask for a research opportunity was outside my comfort zone. I kind of took the advice of people who are a little bit older than me, they just said you need to develop a good relationship with at least one professor, so hopefully you know you've taken a number of like undergrad courses. For me, I was able to find Dr. Kaiser at the end of my sophomore year and I knew I clicked with him from the beginning and so I made sure to take another class with him, talk with him outside of class just to develop a rapport, and then at that point I was able to express interest in pursuing something maybe more research-oriented that I could, you know, really get my hands into and so what's great about it is, a lot of your college professors are actually already doing research on the side and you might not even realize it. And so I found with most cases like your professors will be happy to take you on–obviously it depends on what school you're at and maybe certain teachers might be working with a lot of students already and whatnot–but it's never a bad idea to ask. I just highly highly recommend developing relationships with professors because it's good for opportunities, but also for letters of recommendation down the road. And so yeah even if it's your senior year, it's not a problem because being able to speak to any type of research experience is going to be valuable and it may come up in your interviews too.

Sarah: Yeah thank you for sharing that. I think when it comes to research, it's definitely not just you work in a research lab, you're pipetting fluids, you're culturing cells; there's more to it like I think even one of our classmates did research on bees!

Sarah: And so fast forwarding and as you're kind of reflecting back on your experiences, which one do you think was like the biggest challenge or the most impactful?

Landon: That's actually a really good question, and I say that because like each experience was different and so it presented like their own unique challenges, but i think I would probably say that very first thing I did over the summer with the Hawaiʻi Pathologists’ Laboratory was most challenging because I had never done any clinical work whatsoever and I didn't know like all the details in a chart and whatnot, and on top of that, I was responsible for basically writing the whole manuscript and then having it like, you know, I submitted it to my PI and she just edited it like crazy and i'm like oh great and so that was just for me, I think it was just surprising to see how much diligence and how much hard work it takes to do research, but it makes you appreciate when you do get a final product, you're super proud of it. And yeah so I mean that was just something that I think was a big step for me and that was at a point too when I was kind of iffy if I was going into medicine or not, but to kind of be able to say like I did this, my name is on this, it was like, I don't know, I was super stoked about it.

Anna: Nice and that was the beginning of so many more research projects for you too!

[Mentorships & Advice - 34:40]

Anna: Awesome, well you've talked about a lot of mentors that you had throughout the whole process–undergrad, graduate school. Overall, what was the best advice that you've gotten?

Landon: I definitely got a lot of great advice from a lot of different people, but I think as I reflect back at the whole application process and even just going through undergrad, I think–I mean this might sound cliché but–just really staying true to yourself is extremely important. You know you're in a process where first of all, you're trying to figure yourself out so maybe that's like not easy to figure out to begin with as like a whatever 20-, 21-year-old individual or whether you're 21 or 30, you know a lot about yourself and things that bring you joy, things that you're strong at, maybe things that you're weak at and you need to be like honest with yourself because when you go through this application process, it's a reflection of who you are and this is not a time to like be like BSing anything. You'll find that when you write secondaries and your personal statement you're really going to have to reflect and so it's a great time to really put yourself into words. And when you go into interviews you'll realize like they might ask unique questions that you've never heard before but you want to be sure that you're giving honest answers and interviewers can tell if your story is consistent or not or if maybe you're just trying to like you know BS something. So I think knowing yourself, knowing your story and speaking true to that at every point of the way, it's only going to help you and not only for med school or applying to med school but just throughout life with any relationship you make or any job that you end up pursuing.

Anna: Yeah that's actually really good advice that in a way I kind of also got, and it's like you said, it's kind of cliché or kind of weird to hear from someone like “know yourself” because obviously you know yourself but really it means sit down with yourself, think about all the experiences you have as you're applying to medical school and really understand why you did those, why you chose those experiences, and what you learned from them and that's gonna help you a lot with your, not just your written applications but like you said, also the interview so yeah great advice.

[Closing– Thank you, Landon!! - 37:10]

Anna: Well that pretty much wraps up our episode for today. Thank you so much, Landon, for joining us!

Landon: It was a pleasure, you guys are the best hosts ever!!!

Anna: And thank you so much, Sarah, too for all your help today. We will be including Landon's email on our website and then we're also going to include a link to one of the summer research opportunities that we have here in Hawaiʻi. Thank you so much again for joining us

on JABSOM Journeys!

Primary Host: Brendan

Secondary Host: Anna

[Intro]

Brendan: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of JABSOM Journeys! I'm Brendan, and here with me is my co-host, Anna

Anna: Hi everyone!

Brendan: We're going to be interviewing Maveric today. Maveric is one of our best classmates and is going to have a really interesting story for us today. She went away for college, spent some time on the Marshall Islands doing research and then also is going to touch a bit on being Hawaiian in medicine and things like that. So Maveric, why don't you introduce yourself?

Maveric: Hi everyone! My name is Maveric. Just a little bit about me I grew up on the west side so a lot of my hobbies kind of stem for that. My dad was a big influence on me and I played a lot of sports growing up, did a lot of ocean activities so surfing, spear fishing is pretty huge in my life.

[Columbia University & Engineering - 01:13]

Brendan: Cool, thanks Maveric. You mentioned that you grew up on the west side and then attended Kamehameha for high school before going to the mainland for college. What made you decide to take that step?

Maveric: Oh good question! Yeah I didn't have any family who actually went away for college on the mainland and really even in high school I wasn't one of those big honors/AP kids. I actually did a lot of basketball and that was kind of my focus. Just having fun.

I eventually ended up doing this summer research class that got me really into science and doing science fairs which then got me into this internship at the cancer center and I went down this whole path of science and STEM and that's when I was first exposed to college on the mainland, because a lot of the students that came from the science research program ended up going to pretty big-name schools that I had no idea about anything like that. So that was pretty much my inspiration for applying to Columbia, where I eventually did attend. It was really just a chance to explore anywhere outside of Hawaii. I grew up here, raised here, didn’t ever really move. So Columbia was definitely a big culture shock. People always told me it would be really cold and then I didn’t really believe them until I realized what that meant, what being cold really meant.

Brendan: So you didn’t really experience the cold until you got to the mainland and specifically New York?

Maveric: Oh yeah, everything Hawaii was the exact opposite way. I couldn't see the total expanse of the sky, that's what I remember the most. It got dark really quickly, things like that. But overall Columbia was a dream.

So when I entered Columbia College, I got wrecked my first year. I think it was just a new environment, where everything was so competitive and I was doing a lot of reading and writing, which is not what I was used to. And so I was like, “dang, I really need to boost my GPA”. And I didn’t feel like I was super passionate about anything that I was really learning at the time. And then I did this engineering internship on Maui over the summer and got really into it. When I got back to school, I decided to transfer to the engineering school. And people were like, “You’re crazy, Maveric! No one does that! People only transfer the other way!” So I was prepared for my GPA to get wrecked even more, but at the time I wasn’t interested in medicine so I guess it didn’t really matter. I was just more interested in learning something new and I’m so glad I did because engineering I think was more my fit. P-sets over essays all day, you know?

[Impactful Research in the Marshall Islands - 04:45]

Brendan: All day, all day. So then how did you focus back into medicine? You went off on this engineering tangent and then…?

Maveric: So I did biomedical engineering, so somewhat related to medicine in a sense. But again, I didn’t have any doctors in my family and I wasn’t exposed to any medicine really even in college. So what exposed me was my research.

Anna: Ooo, what was that?

Maveric: I did research on 3D printed blood vessels up at the medical center, but it was my first exposure. Then I got into something called the Columbia K1 project. It was this cool sounding project of students going to the Marshall Islands doing radiation research from the nuclear tests that were done there post-WWII. I always heard about it growing up in Hawaii, but never really thought anything of it. I was like yes, totally, I want to do this. So the next summer I went to the Marshall Islands for four weeks with a group of just undergraduate females in STEM and it was the most amazing experience of my life. The Marshall Islands for one is super beautiful. The research was really fun and it was really serious. I mean, we were taking gamma radiation measurements on the island, taking sediment core samples and collecting fruit and measuring the amount of radioactive isotopes in it.

So I was engrossed in this super interesting activity, but maybe about three weeks in, I started realizing that we didn’t really have that much of a connection with the people who were living there. We were in the northern Marshall Islands, it’s a pretty isolated community of about like 200-300 people on each island. We just realized that we should communicate with the community a bit more. And doing this is what kind of segued me into realizing the real meaning of the research and the impact it could have. So maybe fast forwarding a bit, the realization of the complexity of the Marshallese public health situation, diabetes and obesity and their huge incidence honestly felt really close to home. It’s exactly what was happening in my own Native Hawaiian community and something I’ve always looked at but never really took to heart until I was directly visualizing and seeing it.

Brendan: So did you being from here and having a Pacific Islander background allow you or prompt you to have a different perspective on that research trip?

Maveric: Yeah, no exactly. I think just having that perspective, that background kind of made me view it in a different way. For me it was really important to get the research back to them because I think that it would be an oversight if we didn’t do that. And so I actually did go back and get the publication translated into the Marshall Islands’ language. I’m not really too sure how helpful that was, but I got to present it to the Marshallese president. So yeah, that experience was really meaningful for me, just realizing the importance of health and connecting with people. So my focus kind of transitioned from engineering into medicine.

[Transitioning to Medicine & the MCAT - 08:48]

Brendan: Great, then that transitions nicely to our med school prep section. How was your transition from engineering to medicine? Was it hard to switch over?

Maveric: Haha yeah, I kind of had to catch up on all the pre-med stuff in like two years. I really had to crowd it in. I came back the summer of my junior year to UH to take organic chemistry, I did all the volunteering at the hospital and then did my application actually right after graduation. Actually, I took my MCAT a week after I graduated. I can definitely tell you don’t do that. And then wrote my application that summer.

Brendan: Wow, bold. And so, did you always feel that you were going to come home? Did you ever think about staying in the City?

Maveric: No, once I decided on medicine I knew I wanted to come back to Hawaii. The primary reason I wanted to come back was for the public health complexities, the social determinants of health and all of that specifically focused here on Native Hawaii and and Pacific Islanders. So for me, it was like there’s one school that I really want to go to.

Anna: And now you’re here!

Maveric: Yeah! And I’m really grateful for that.

Anna: You know you mentioned that you took the MCAT right after you graduated which seems crazy to me, but do you have any kind of tips for how to balance finishing school with MCAT prep?

Maveric: It definitely was a challenge, I’d recommend everyone take some dedicated time to study for the MCAT. But I knew I didn’t want to take more than one gap year so that’s kind of why I rushed everything.

[Connecting with Mentors - 13:18]

Brendan: Impressive. So moving on, given that you didn't have family in medicine or a background in medicine, and especially given that you came into this journey late, how did you plot your path forward? Did you have mentors or get tips from others?

Maveric: Yeah definitely my friends in college really helped speed me up on what I needed to do to be an applicant for medicine. So definitely them and also my research mentors were huge, connecting me with people coming back here in Hawaii. I also volunteered at Queen’s west, where I met a general surgeon who allowed me to shadow him and he connected me to another general surgeon named Dr. Merrill Bear, who actually inspired me to pursue surgery. So yeah, I don’t think there was anything special to it. I think I just got really lucky honestly with who I was able to connect with and just their willingness to help me. The biggest challenge was just the compressed time frame. I really loved engineering and wanted to put my hundred percent towards that, so that was a priority for me, but I also needed to be competitive enough to get into medical school. So having those two things in mind I think helped drive me forward. And finally, just having a good support system, even if they weren’t all in medicine, was huge. I mean, I didn’t have any family in New York, but I had a lot of friends that I consider my family there and they have been a huge help and always provided tremendous support.

Brendan: I’m impressed that you managed to do that in such a short period of time. I did all my pre-med stuff in like two years, but my first two years in college when everything was easier. I don’t know how you managed that so late.

[Being Native Hawaiian in Medicine & Honua Scholars - 16:10]

Brendan: Anyways, I wanted to circle back to a topic we had discussed earlier, and that’s being Hawaiian in Medicine. I think that the work you did in the Marshall Islands is really interesting, really impressive but it really does speak to the challenges that some members of our community here face and the difficulties that someone coming from outside may have in understanding the people and culture, and feeling out the limitations of how much they can really contribute. Can you talk about what it means for you to be Hawaiian in medicine and how it has affected your plans for the future?

Maveric: Yeah, deciding to do medicine at Columbia my junior year was tough in the sense that I also just didn't know who to look up to. I didn't know any other Native Hawaiians in medicine at the time and I guess there's just no one at Columbia who I felt I could really connect to in that sense, so that was particularly difficult for me. And then coming back home I think also was just a huge help because I was able to find mentors here who at least were from here and kind of understood the background that I was coming from. So that struggle of finding opportunities in STEM, I'm definitely incredibly lucky to have been exposed to the opportunities that I have been but I also understand that not everyone had that, especially from Kamehameha Schools. So that's why when I came home one of the things I really wanted to do was promote that and be someone to kind of expose that world of STEM to other Native Hawaiians and other underrepresented minorities. So me and two other Columbia graduates started this program called Honua scholars in which we've recruited over 30 Native Hawaiian graduate students in STEM. They're in various graduate schools around the country and majoring in things like engineering, astrophysics, medicine and computer science and we try to gather pretty much people from every field to be a mentor. So now students can come to us and our website and sign up for tutoring or mentorship. In fact we're going to have our first event where we're going to have a panel of speakers who are native Hawaiian and they're talking about their experience just how I am right now: what inspired them, how they were able to come from maybe a background that wasn't necessarily STEM but be in the place that they are now. And I don't think a lot of people know this, but I think now especially in our generation there is just a huge number of Native Hawaiians who are pursuing science fields and I think that's just huge, and I think this platform gives them that opportunity to kind of share how they've gotten there and hopefully some younger students can learn from us, our journeys, our mistakes and what they can do to also pursue whatever they feel their passion is.

Anna: That's incredible and we'll definitely put a link to the website she discussed in the description of the podcast. You know, I’m looking at your website right now and I can see that you guys are making a huge difference and are going to have a lot of impact not only among pre-meds, but also just a lot of people here, so that’s awesome.

Brendan: Yeah and as many people as there are in STEM now, maybe in 10 years it'll be even more hopefully.

Maveric: That’s the hope!

[Balancing Academics & Hobbies - 20:38]

Brendan: So I wanted to return to you, a bit more personally right now. We know that you have a lot of hobbies and interests and are, generally, a very interesting person even outside of medicine. So why don’t you talk a bit about how you are able to balance all these life activities with all the academic stuff you do? How do you find the time to be a real person?

Maveric: That's a good question. I love surfing, I think that was a huge bonus of coming back to do four years of medicine. So I try to schedule time in for that and I’ve also been trying to teach a lot of our classmates here, which has been super fun. I think like six or seven of us have bought wave storms and we’ve been taking it out and going to like White Planes. It’s been a nice breather for me. I’ve also been going spear fishing a lot now that I’m back home and been going with my dad sometimes. I’ve also been picking up sports again, intramural-kind sports and things and that’s been a lot of fun. But yeah, I think just making sure you schedule time in to do the things you love. And at the end of the day, I don’t want to look back and be like, “Oh man, I didn’t get to do my hobbies or pursue the things I find enjoyable.” There’s only so much studying you can do in a day and we’re only going to get busier, right?

Anna: Haha true, true. So are you someone who designates like every saturday morning or something to do only fun activities or do you just kind of take it week to week?

Maveric: Oh, I’m definitely a week-to-week person. It's really just spontaneous and depends on how far behind I am that week in studying or my homework.

[Advice - 24:23]

Brendan: Yeah, it’s never a matter of if you’re behind, just how far haha. So before we close out, do you have any last advice you want to share with our listeners?

Maveric: Yeah my freshman year someone told me that my GPA would never be competitive enough for medicine, like straight up. But I'm here in medical school so don't let anyone put you down. Really everyone has a different path and you don't have to be perfect all the time. And you don't have to be interested in medicine from day one. College is a time, I think, to explore what you're interested in. So take the opportunity to just do exactly that, pick up hobbies that you never thought you would do and go to student organizations that would put you out of your comfort zone.

Anna: I'm so glad that you brought up that topic. You know having that low GPA and people just looking only at that and thinking you're never gonna go to medical school. But once you're in medical school you realize how many people have been told that, myself included, and that's also another reason why we really wanted to start this podcast. So thanks for that.

Brendan: Yeah, yeah. I was always told that it’s better to be interesting than perfect.

Well thank you, Maveric, for being such an interesting and wonderful guest and thank you, Anna, for co-hosting and doing all the legwork for this podcast. We’ll see everyone in the next episode!

Primary Host: Kellie

Secondary Host: Brendan

Legend: GI (Gastrointestinal), UCLA (University of California, Los Angeles)

[Intro]

Kellie: Welcome back to another episode of JABSOM Journeys! I'm Kellie and I'll be your host for today alongside Brendan.

Brendan: Hey

Kellie: So today we have a very special guest coming from California: Miss Katie Liu

Katie: Wow thanks guys! Hi everyone, my name is Katie. Like Kellie said, I’m from California and went to UCLA for undergrad, where I majored in microbiology, immunology and molecular genetics. I also got a minor in food studies

Kellie: Wow, I didn’t even know that was a thing!

Katie: Yea, it was actually really interesting. I just took classes about food related to English and one class we just read a bunch of cookbooks and analyzed it from a female perspective and then another class was more scientific, we had a science project and mine was to determine if the number of folds in a pie crust affected how flaky your crust is. And so I baked a bunch of pie crusts for that class.

Brendan: So what’s the best way to bake a pie?

Katie: Honestly, the number of folds doesn’t really impact that much. It was more about the butter.

Kellie: Wow, why are we in med school?!? I feel like I should be a food scientist instead!

Katie: Dude I honestly thought about an alternative career food scientist. I wanted to work in those like impossible burger, those kind of food labs.

Brendan: Was that your answer to the interview question: what would you do if not medical school?

Katie: I actually never got asked that question, but it would have been!

[Asian Heritage in Indonesia, Cambodia, Singapore - 02:08]

Kellie: We mentioned that you are from California, but I know you have some strong ties to Asia, specifically countries like Indonesia, Cambodia and Singapore. Would you be able to talk a little bit about that?

Katie: Definitely. I was actually born in Singapore; my dad’s family is from Cambodia but they kind of escaped to Singapore during the war. So, I don’t really have strong ties to Cambodia, as it’s not the best memories for my family. But with Indonesia that’s where my mom is from and most of my mom’s family is still there. And so, growing up I was super lucky in that I basically spent all my summers in either Singapore or Indonesia visiting family. That definitely impacted not just my cultural background but also that I’ve been able to see the world and kind of have a more global perspective from a fairly young age. I think being so young and not knowing how fortunate I was to be able to travel to all these places. I was definitely very sheltered you could say, or just like unaware of a lot of things at the time. For example, when I saw all the poverty in Indonesia it was kind of like, “Oh that’s just how it is here”. But then as I got older, I started to notice that it’s not just limited to specific regions of the world and there’s so much need everywhere and that’s kind of something that I started to consider when I was thinking about medicine.

[Tying it back to medicine / Hospital Volunteering - 03:54]

Brendan: So when did you transition into medicine then? Because, you know, a lot of what you said about the global perspective and kind of seeing the shelteredness around you brought you in that direction, but there are so many other things on that path as well.

Katie: I would say that I had a pretty strong influence from my family. You know, I don’t really have a doctor in my family, and everyone wants their kids to be doctors. But also, my freshman year at UCLA I did this hospital volunteering program that was the whole summer for 16 weeks, eight hours a day, four days a week and I was just in the hospital the whole summer. I think that was the first point where I was like: “Ok this could be something that I could potentially see myself doing”. I was really exhausted by the time I left but I really enjoyed all the patient encounters that I had. Just being able to meet people who are in such a vulnerable state and be there in such a unique way where people will just open up to you about so many things that they’re struggling with. When you are in the hospital you kind of get to connect with people on a different level. And then you also see the doctors come in and out and do their thing and just see the huge change in the patient’s lives. You see someone who wasn’t able to feed themselves or get out of bed or literally do anything on their own and to see that recovery process I think that kind of sparked my interest. I wanted to see the science that goes behind this recovery and see that flip side of medicine.

Brendan: So you’re like: "I want to be a good person and oh look the hospital is cool”?

Katie: Yeah, I guess you could say that. I think after the hospital experience I had an appreciation for the volunteer based and patient interaction aspect of medicine, but not necessarily the physiology of the human body. So I went out and looked into other experiences, such as scribing in the ER in east LA my sophomore year of college. While there, I really saw what physicians do on a day-to-day basis, how they go through their differentials, how they make their decisions and the different things they order. It was very different from my previous experience, as I wasn’t allowed to touch a patient or even come close to them, it wasn’t in the job description. So it was very analytical and learning about the science of medicine whereas the volunteering was more of the human side of it.

Kellie: Are you interested in going into emergency medicine?

Katie: Yeah, I mean I had a really good time in the ER, I feel like I really enjoyed the critical aspect of having really sick patients come in and making those major choices in a short amount of time. I feel it fits my personality, but I’m defiantly not set on it. There’s so many other specialties and other options that I don’t really know much about.

Brendan: Well we’re in the GI unit right now, so maybe you can tie it into your food science background!

Kellie: Oh yes, your love for food! Everyone should go follow Katie’s food Instagram (@katie_the_foodie_food).

Katie: Haha yes that’s my food Instagram that’s been super unsuccessful over the past five years and if anyone has any food recommendations let me know! I’m always looking for new places.

[GI Research at UCLA - 07:51]

Katie: But I actually did work in a GI lab at UCLA and we basically looked at the role of the microbiome and the role it has in all the GI diseases, so inflammatory bowel disease that we’ve been talking about in PBL, colorectal cancer was a big project I worked on. We also did liver cirrhosis and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and tried to see if there were certain microbes that have associations with their presentation. And so GI has been really fun because it’s interesting to learn about the actual pathophys of all the patients that I’ve been collecting stool samples from.

[Application & MCAT - 08:46]

Kellie: Wow that’s so cool! So moving on to more of the application part of this, did you have any struggles or anything that you felt made that process difficult for you?

Katie: Yeah, I’m actually not a great test taker, so I signed up for the MCAT my junior year and then decided that I would take a gap year. And I think deep down I knew I wasn’t ready for it. So I actually paid for it and never showed up. And then I was like, “I’m going to do what everyone else does and study really hard during the summer between my junior and senior year and get a good score than just be done with it. And um that didn’t happen. So I had a benchmark goal that if I get this score higher I’ll be fine and then I got one point below what my benchmark was and I was like so mad but at the same time because I had set up that goal for myself I did end up retaking it. But I was struggling a lot because I was taking all of my last year upper divs, which was probably not a great way to schedule it, but oh well. And I was still working as a scribe full time and doing my GI research lab and studying all fall semester.

Kellie: Wow that sounds so hard.

Katie: Yeah, it wasn’t great. But I think it definitely forced me to study every second that was available and then I decided I was going to have fun after my MCAT so I booked the test in Chicago and the just hung out there for the next week. Luckily everything worked out and I got what I wanted, exactly what I wanted not a point higher or lower. So in the end I probably studied for that technically three times, so that was not fun. But everyone goes through it.

Kellie: Yeah, everyone goes through it. So if you’re out there and you’re struggling just keep going! I know it sucks, but you can get through it!

[Decision to come to JABSOM - 11:53]

Kellie: So now comes decision time. Can you talk us through the whole process of how you ended up in Hawaii and at JABSOM?

Katie: Yeah so people would always ask where I wanted to go to medical school and I would always tell people I wanted to go to Hawaii. So a back story: when my family moved from Asia to the United States they actually moved to Hawaii. So my parents went here for undergrad and all my uncles went here and worked here for 10 years and then decided to go back to Asia. That’s why I was born in Singapore. But I guess Hawaii’s always been a place that my family at least knows, because no one really came to visit us much in California but in Hawaii it was always a tie back to my whole family and my extended family. So I’d always be like Hawaii, why not? And also, when I say I want to go to Hawaii no one’s ever like, “Why?”, it’s always “I want to go too!”. But then in all seriousness I was applying, and I remember someone saying that it’s basically impossible to get in if your out of state and there are these rules and I remember looking it up and being like, “Hey, I don’t meet any of the requirements!”. So I didn’t think I’d get in. I just applied without ever really expecting anything. And then I actually got an interview and even then, the interviewer was really nice but also set me up saying that they don’t really take a lot of out-of-state students so even if I was really great it has nothing to do with me. And I was like, “Ok, I guess I definitely didn’t get it”. So I just made the most out of my trip, went ziplining with my mom. And then I was on the waitlist for a really long time. Then I emailed the school and told them that if they let me in I would definitely come. But I was basically set on going to another school that I had gotten into, and I even reached out to a girl to room with her and was getting excited to go to this place. Then I got an email on the drive back from LA to Irvine saying that I got into JABSOM and almost swerved my car. I was super excited and then I texted that new friend that I was sorry, but I can’t pass up on going somewhere I’ve wanted to go to since high school. I just knew that this was where I wanted to go.

Kellie: Wow it’s like you manifested it.

Katie: I spoke it into existence.

[Plans after medical school - 15:17]

Kellie: Oh my god. Okay and then moving forward again, where does future Katie see herself?

Katie: Good question, well first of all living in Hawaii has been awesome. We go surfing and hiking and it’s honestly a constant reminder of just how fortunate and lucky I am to even be here and be able to go to medical school in such a beautiful place. And everyone’s always saying that I must not be studying at all but rather just going to all these places. But you know, we bury ourselves in MEB (medical education building) for a good majority of the week and then we get to explore all these different places which is just so cool. I’m definitely taking advantage of every second. In terms of going back to the mainland – it’s so weird to call it the mainland, I always called it the continental U.S. – I think for residency yea, it’s good to get the exposure to big cities. I think I’m a big city kind of person, so a place like Chicago, LA, New York, somewhere where there’s a lot of things happening, especially when we’re training and trying to see all the different types of illnesses and diseases. But returning to Hawaii is definitely something I always consider. It’s so nice to be here and everybody here is so nice, and it’s been a very community culture and family oriented which is something that’s really important to me.

[Culture of Hawaii - 16:58]

Brendan: Do you find some parallels with your Asian background growing up and being in Hawaii?

Katie: Yeah, definitely I feel like in LA it was more individualistic I guess you could say. Most of my friends were close to their family but I don’t think not like they are here in Hawaii. It’s been very nice; I don’t feel out of place at all. I feel like I’m where I’m supposed to be.

Kellie: Yeah, no one would know you’re not from here.

Katie: Except when I don’t understand certain words. It’s been weird to come in with so many people already knowing each other or being like literal family members. I came in naïve and kind of expected that we’d be all new and making new friends. And then I’ll be having a conversation with someone and they’ll be like, “Oh yeah I know that person, we went to kindergarten through high school with them.” So I’d just been telling them how cool this one person that I just met is and you already knew all about them. And I guess a lot of our parents are very involved with JABSOM and I didn’t really grow up with a lot of doctors around me, no one in my family and none of my friends really were doctors. But yeah, it’s never something that I feel weird about or out of place about.

[Uniqueness of JABSOM’s curriculum - 18:53]

Kellie: So JABSOM has a big emphasis on leaning about social and behavioral topics and learning about different ethnic groups and the challenges they face, as someone who didn’t grow up here how important to you personally are these topics?

Katie: No I really really think it’s important for that to be in our curriculum. I’m glad they kind of force it into us, it’s really important, especially in medicine when you’re trying to connect with the patient, a lot of it does come from my culture and ethnic background and how comfortable they are with you. So as long as you try to relate to them in any way or just know a little bit of something about their culture, maybe be able to say that you really like that food they make, it’s always a good connecting point with your patients. If they trust you, you can help them in the best way so I definitely support what JABSOM’s doing in terms of that.

[Struggles as an out-of-stater - 20:10]

Kellie: As an out-of-stater, not to label that or you in any way, I just feel that this is such a cool opportunity for our listeners to get your perspectives on coming to a school that has very specific nuances, because it’s so different than the mainland. I guess did you have trouble adjusting, not only to the way that everyone knows everyone but also some of the alternative things and culture? Has that been an adjustment period for you? And then moving forward, would you have any advice to an out-of-stater who may be considering coming to JABSOM?

Katie: Yeah, I think definitely pronunciations of things, that’s been a major struggle. But in terms of looking into alternative medicines or traditional use of island herbs or plants, I actually grew up with a very similar medicinal background. I never too an ibuprofen until I went to college, when we were sick my mom was always taking Chinese herbs and medicines. Even in my cabinet here I brought with me our Indonesian herbal tea. I literally don’t know what’s in it, but that thing works miracles. It’s actually really a big part of why I wanted to come to JABSOM, one of my talking points was using eastern and western medicine and combining that here, which is something that they emphasize in our curriculum and share with us. I think it’s really important to not only focus on western medicine but also to realize the validity of other traditional cultural practices. It kind of goes back to what you’re saying about our patients, it’s important to recognize if they are more comfortable with using alternative medicines or if they want to try western medicines. Just being aware of the different options and providing that for your patients is also very important. I actually took home one of the plants that was supposed to help with mosquito bites and it’s growing so well! I hardly water it and it’s just growing so well compared to my basil!

Kellie: And you’ve been using aloe a lot recently, right?

Katie: Yeah, aloe vera

Kellie: It’s aloe, get it right! [Editor’s note: listen to the audio, Katie says it wrong and Kellie is a bully]

Katie: But yeah, I actually have a pretty bad cuts and bruises from trying to be active and like baking, but I’ve been putting it on and it’s been working really well.

Brendan: So what are the most obvious weird things about Hawaii?

Katie: I don’t know, because I feel like someone will say something to me that I don’t understand and I’ll just not even realize they’re talking to me. The other day someone said to me “Jon Ken Po”, which I guess means rock paper scissors, and I didn’t know what that was. I also don’t really understand sometimes if people talk in pigeon really fast, but we don’t really have people in our class who talk that way, at least not to me because I wouldn’t understand. But yeah, sometimes I feel weird when I want to say like “Brah” or something. I feel it’s just like not quite accurate or correct and just makes me sound more foreign. I also don’t know when to like throw or not throw the shaka and like all the rules, like tight or not tight, which way to turn it and all that.

[Editor’s note: At this point we explain to her how to do a shaka. Kellie is less of a bully here]

[Hawaii and “Eh, what high school you wen?” - 24:42]

Katie: The other thing is the big emphasis on high school here. I mean I don’t understand it, well I kind of do I guess. If you go to the same high school from kindergarten to 12th grade and then there’s only like two schools, I guess it seems like it’s pretty big. Although even though a lot of our classmates went to the same high school not everybody was super close friends or anything like that. I guess I don’t find it annoying, I just don’t have anything to contribute. When people ask where I went, I went to University. And then they get all confused, like wait are you in college or in high school and I’m like, “No, it was called University Highschool, it was in California”. But yeah, I can’t imagine what it would have been like growing up here, but no one ever makes you feel out of place. People here really are very welcoming and super nice and I feel like being from out of the state gives me more talking points to share with our classmates. I feel like we’re all new and we have different experiences. Some people are like what do you have, what do you know about other places.

[Med school experience thus far - 26:09]

Kellie: So we’ve talked about hiking and baking and the beach a lot, as well as your job experience and application. How would you describe your medical school experience so far?

Katie: Well starting med school in the pandemic was interesting, I feel like I got to know a lot of my classmates on social media before I really got to know them in person, which you know has its perks, but also sometimes social media isn’t always what it seems. But I would say in the beginning of the year I definitely gravitated more towards whoever was actually on campus, which was not very many people. So I got to know those people and I’m really fortunate to be rooming with someone who is also out of state so I never felt super alone or homesick or miss my family too much. I actually haven’t been back to California since I moved here and then now as everyone’s vaccinated and we’re opening up now I feel like I don’t even get a second to study because I’m just always seeing everybody on campus. And everyone’s trying to talk or plan all these different things, I feel like our class is very physically active and play a lot of sports. I’m not good at any of them and I have all these bruises to prove it -- I pretty much provide comic relief. But at this point it’s been really nice to get to know our classmates through all our different sport activities and then for the people who don’t really play sports its always food. I feel like I’m always going out to eat. And JABSOM also has an interest group, I don’t know if you’d call an interest group that does like art and music…

Kellie: Yeah, it’s called JAM!

Katie: I would say art and drawing and that type of stuff is not my forte, but I did grow up playing piano and violin. I played viola for a hot minute and tried to teach myself the guitar, but I genuinely think my hands are just too small for them.

Kellie: You love ukulele!

Katie: This is true.

Kellie: Not that you connect with the ukulele

Katie: I don’t, but I’m just gonna say ukulele

[Laughter that makes more sense if you were there]

But yea, music has always been a big part of my life. I played instruments growing up and was in the orchestra, but I mean I didn’t bring my violin with me and I really only know how to play Hannah Montana at this point, so it’s not like classical. I wish I could play classical, but I can’t. And then on piano I would usually just play pop songs at home anyways. So I’m not great at what I like to do but I love to do it anyways. [Editor’s Note: Sage piece of advice right there]

[Last pieces of advice - 29:22]

Kellie: Great! Other than that, I guess we just have our last parting words. Katie, do you have any last piece of advice that you want to give to our listeners?

Katie: Yeah, I would say don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t do it or that you shouldn’t do it or that you should take an easier route if you know that is something that you want to do. I’ll give an example: my major at UCLA was microbiology, immunology, and molecular genetics. Basically everyone told me, “If you’re pre-med you shouldn’t do that because it’s a GPA killer. The classes are too hard and it’s not going to work out well. Just choose a major that all the other pre-meds are doing.” But I really enjoyed microbes and learning about that unseen world and so I stuck through it. And yes, it definitely impacted my GPA, I got some pretty low grades on some of the upper divs, but I really enjoyed it and so it didn’t feel miserable when I was going through my major. And it felt really relevant that I was learning things that I enjoyed, so that’d be my first piece of advice. My second piece of advice is to make sure you like what you are studying and if you feel like you’re drowning or need to take a break, do it! It’s totally ok to take an hour off to go on a run or surf with your friends of just do something fun. Don’t feel like you need every single second to be doing all these things. Medicine is a long haul; an entire career and you need to make sure that you are taking care of yourself too.

Kellie: Yeah, the work never ends. We can attest to that being in med school right now. I think you always want to just build healthy habits because this is what’s going to carry you. But I just want to say thank you so much to Katie for joining us today and thank you so much to Brendan for co-hosting.

We’re going to leave Katie’s email up on the website so if you have any questions or want to talk, feel free to email her. And don’t forget to fill out our feedback survey if you have any comments or suggestions. Otherwise thank you so much for listening [/reading] and see you on our next episode!

Legend: TA (Teaching Assistant), PBL (Problem-Based Learning), JABSOM (John A. Burns School of Medicine)

[Intro - 00:12]

Shirley: Hi everyone, welcome to our final episode of season one! We hope you enjoyed our interviews with our classmates and can appreciate the diversity of their past.

[Sarah’s teaching experience - 00:21]

Sarah: Since this is our last episode with all of us as hosts we wanted to take some time to reflect on our experiences as pre-meds and how they helped us survive our first year of medical school. So, I can start. In college, I tried to look for a lot of different teaching positions because I was really interested in education at the time. And so I was able to become a TA for one of my bioengineering classes, I was a grader for another class. I also was able to work with one of my good friends from college and we kind of held a and taught our own class to help freshmen kind of transition into college. And from all of those experiences it really gave me a better understanding of what are the best ways to communicate or share knowledge with other people and this has been especially helpful transitioning into medical school. Here at JABSOM since it's a PBL curriculum and PBL is problem-based learning so it's where every week we have multiple cases that we have to go through as a group and we pick out different things that we might not know a lot about whether it's like the disease pathogenesis or maybe like the implications of different health policies and trying to figure out, okay well let's divide up all of this all of these things that we don't really know and come back the next day and really share what we learned to our group. So I think pulling from these teaching experiences I was able to come up with different ways to try to make learning as interactive as possible especially since due to COVID everything transitioned to being online and so it was definitely a challenge trying to figure out, “Okay how can I make this concept into multiple questions that can probe their deeper understanding or how can I present this information in a way that it's going to stick in their minds that when we take those exams that it can come to your mind quickly?” I think another thing too is that with having this interest in education I didn't realize that it could actually be put into some kind of leadership position in medical school and that there's so many opportunities for leadership and so during my time here during this first year I was able to get elected as a curriculum representative where I get to participate in curriculum meetings to discuss ways that we can improve what we're learning in medical school. So that's enough about me. How about you, Shirley?

[Shirley’s Medical Mission & Mentorship - 02:54]

Shirley: Thanks Sarah! I also really think that teaching skills are important for medical school learning especially since we have the PBL curriculum. So for me, during my undergraduate years something that was really influential was when I went on a medical mission trip to Nicaragua and being able to help patients in need especially in those really rural areas and while I was helping these patients I found that something that was lacking was our capabilities to help all of these people because of a lack of resources. So things that I saw were like lack of multivitamins wound care supplies and even eye correction glasses since many of these people had vision loss and so that really moved me and when I came back from that medical mission I really felt like I needed to do something about it and so i reached out to the materials and management director of a major hospital in the area and we were able to work together to create a program where we can repurpose some of these supplies that would go to medical waste for a greater good. And so when transitioning to medical school, I realized that the skill of being able to take initiative on something you really cared about was an important skill to have. Since we transitioned to online learning there were a lot of challenges that came about and something that I realized that there was a gap in mentorship and so that's why i came to create the JABSOM Journeys podcast because of all these COVID restrictions and physical distancing along with not being able to have visitors on campus, this really affected pre-medical students and their ability to access medical mentors and to learn more about JABSOM or medical school in general. And so having this great platform to tell our stories would help future medical students navigate their path to medical school. And through these experiences I learned that having these skills would be beneficial for creating change in the future as a physician. You know once you're out of the academic environment it's going to be up to you to make decisions on your own and take on the responsibility to help your community. We're doing this not only because it feels good and we're helping people, I think it's our duty and responsibility to do that for our surroundings and the people around us. So yeah, what about you, Anna?

[Anna’s Work Experience & Time Management - 05:28]

Anna: Awesome, well your experience in LA was obviously very impressive and we all appreciate you taking the time to start JABSOM Journeys. It's been a really fun experience this past year. Okay as far as myself, so I was pretty busy in undergrad; on top of academics I did work one full-time job where I was the manager of a team of like 30 employees and then towards the end of undergrad I added on a second job where I was also tutoring and so just working two jobs as far as well as going to school and then doing all the pre-med extracurriculars, it really forced me to develop some good time management skills as well as organization skills. I feel like that's really allowed me to do well in medical school. So now as a medical student, of course there is a lot as far as academic stuff but, I'm someone who loves to take advantage of all the extracurricular opportunities like the interest groups, I'm also part of women's clinic, I'm part of a couple of research projects and so being able to have the time to do well in academics but also for all of those other opportunities was really important to me. And then it also allowed me to understand when I needed to take a break from all of those opportunities so making time for myself as well as time for my hobbies. I think all of those experiences just really developed the time management that allows me to do that. But yeah that's enough about me. So what about you, Kellie?

[Kellie’s Peer Advising Experience - 07:01]

Kellie: Thank you, Anna! I i definitely didn't do as much as you did in undergrad, but one thing I did do was I spent some time as a peer advisor where I would help council students who are interested in pre-health careers and formulate an academic plan with them, talk about the whole application process for graduate school, and so what that provided me was a lot of time to spend working with people one-on-one and I think that's where I developed a lot of interpersonal skills, how to kind of build trust build rapport, and just talk to people for an extended period of time one-on-one. I think that has translated really well for me in clinical skills and doing patient interviews, having the soft skills to talk to people and get them to tell you their story on their own terms. One thing I learned from that job also is to show statistics or show facts rather than telling people bad news so in terms of like as a doctor, if you ever need to tell patient like you know you need to watch your weight maybe we need to watch your cholesterol blood pressure things like that i think rather than just accusing them or telling them things maybe just showing them the impact of what these health problems can do later on. So I think having this experience was really helpful in me feeling comfortable talking to people one-on-one and building their trust from the start. But enough about me. I will throw it to our last but not least co-host, Brendan.

[Brendan’s Networking - 08:41]

Brendan: Thanks Kellie! Yeah I think that you know Kellie’s pre-med stuff definitely comes through when she's talking to patients and other people. For me, I think you know one of the most important things I did was kind of just hang out around a lot of people in medicine so a lot of residents, some fellows, some attendings and some other you know even non-physician people in healthcare and then kind of just seeing how there are so many different paths even within medicine even within healthcare, right. The diversity of journeys doesn't end when you get to medical school, in fact it actually probably branches out even more as you can kind of personalize your career and your life to kind of fit your goals and what you really enjoy who you are, right. So some physicians you know really prioritize being the best clinician they can possibly be, they really focus on making sure the person that they are talking to has the best possible experience and some of them are really focused on you know finding the next great drug or finding the next great therapy to really help a lot of patients some people focus more on populational systemic things. And to me just hearing all their stories seeing all their different paths and the kind of thinking about reflecting on you know where I might fit in that really helped me when I got into med school. You feel confident and exploring the things I want to do and not caring about necessarily things I don't and then really prioritize my own path.

[Closing - A Hui Hou - 10:37]

So that's it, that's it for all of us! We'd like to thank you for joining us in our inaugural season of JABSOM Journeys. What started off as a way for us to talk story quickly became a way for us to get to know our classmates and really showcase their journeys as a whole.

Kellie: So lastly we hope these stories have given you insight into our experiences getting into and while in medical school as well as provided hope to some of you out there to continue on your own path. It has been a pleasure gracing all of your podcast sharing platforms. Sending you lots of finger hearts!

Anna: So as one chapter closes another one opens. We will actually be introducing a fantastic group of new hosts who will guide you through a new season of JABSOM Journeys. So see you next time on...

Everyone: JABSOM Journeys!