MM commented:
I plan to see Urumi when it releases on DVD (unfortunately they don't get anything but mainstream Bollywood movies where I live), but I was interested by your comparison of it to Asoka. Just from that one song video, the similarities to Asoka were suffocating to my mind. It's as if Sivan can only make the same film over and over again, or at least the same type of film. So, what was astounding in Asoka felt repetitious and robbed of its meaning in Urumi. I didn't even need to see the video of Roshni Se, because I remembered it well enough to immediately spot the same shots in the Urumi song. :( In addition, I could also spot the same weapons and the same kalaripayattu teams as were used for Asoka. Truly depressing.
I was going to ask how many of Sivan's films (as either cinematographer or director) you have seen, but you mentioned at least four, so I want to ask you, don't you think he uses the same visual style in all of them? Some of that lovemaking in the Urumi song was exactly the same as in Sivan's film The Terrorist, which again mirrored many aspects of Dil Se - in visuals, not story.
So you can see that I'm somewhat disenchanted with Sivan by now. I'm glad you still find his images breathtaking instead of boring. Have you seen Raavan/Raavanan? Same beautiful forests, gorgeous waterfalls, shots like paintings. It all produces a big yawn for me. In fact, the only film I can think of where Sivan didn't indulge in all these trademark shots is Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani, for which he was cinematographer. So at least he is capable of doing something different.
I don't know if I'm making any sense. My complaint about Sivan isn't that his films aren't beautiful. They are, but in service of what? To make the film itself a work of art, I think that visual beauty needs to be in the service of an overall narrative or point, and I don't think it is, very often.
BTW, about symbolism in Asoka - it's best to be wary of interpreting symbols across cultures. What did you think Asoka smearing "white" ash on his face signified?
hari commented:
I havent seen Urumi, so i cant comment on that movie. But i unfortunately saw Asoka.
While the visuals were great, i thought the movie was boring. So clearly Santosh Sivan has failed in delivering in that respect. Another reason the movie sucks for me is that it stars Shah Rukh. He simply could not look convincing in the period film. He looks and acts like Shah Rukh in every film (except Swades and a few others). In Asoka you can add bad haircut to it. The war action sequences were not convincing either.
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@ Dustdevil: You know, the jury is still out on that one. I was thinking about it a lot and I have to give props to Prithvi's perfectly cut sideburns (sooo very 16th century - NOT :P), but then the faux-hawk that SRK has UNDER the wig is also worthy of a mention. So it's a tie for me. :D
Guess we can't have an Aamir Khan all the time willing to grow his own hair for a role, can we? :(
@ Hari - LOL Someone's been sipping on the hatorade this morning, eh? :) Just kidding!
I know there's a lot of hate for Asoka, and I know part of that hate is owed to SRK. Guess I just don't feel the same way about it as most people. While I am far from SRK's greatest fans (in fact I do a great job at avoiding his films and particularly the romantic roles) I found him suitable for this particular one. He does still slip into his annoying mannerisms during the first half, but the saving grace was that he brings an arrogance and a bratty quality to the character that I don't think another actor would have. And it seems to me like that's exactly what the director had in mind, because I know Santosh made considerable efforts in many other aspects of the film to keep it modern and not get lost in the heaviness of a historical film. He wanted the dialougues to be fresh and snappy, he wanted to characters to be relatable, he wanted Asoka to be like every other dude. Whatever his resons were for that I'd say he has succeeded. So whether or not you are aligned with his vision, that's a different question, but for me it worked just fine.
Do I think that SRK could have done better? Yes, for sure. As I also think Genelia could have done much better in Urumi, but unlike Genelia who was completely miscast, I think SRK was a good choice, he just didn't deliver on all counts. Swades convinced me that SRK *can* acty, but it's still a mystery to me why he can't be bothered to do it most of the time. This was still a great improvement compared to all the other stuff I had seen from him before Asoka, so maybe that's why I am always willing to cut him some slack on this film. :D
Also, I was not bored for a second, even after a few rewatches. I always find something that makes me think or that pulls me in. Guess it's a matter of taste...
But I will agree on the wig and the haircut. LOL Pretty fabulous. Expect to also be awed by Prithvi's coiffure in Urumi, I don't think I had enough warning :)
Also, if the "modern feel" annoyed you in Asoka, expect it to also annoy you in Urumi during the scenes between Prabhu Deva and Nithya. Other than that, I think you may like Urumi better than Asoka, for sure it's... cleaner :)
Hey mm, I left you for last because this will be the longest reply :)
Like I said, I am aware of all the hate for Asoka, I just don't agree with most of the criticism that it got. Could be my Western mind, or it could be that I'm such a sucker for Santosh Sivan's work in general, though if it were the latter then I'd also be a Sanjay Leela Bhansali fan and that I am not. Speaking of which, everything you said about the empty beauty of Sivan's films for you, that's exactly how I feel about SLB's films. I feel that the cinematography never lives up to the empty stories. With Sivan on the other hand I see a lot more depth in his stories and I find that the visuals do complement the narrative rather than just embelishing it. Maybe I read more that I should into it but I tend to find meaning in everything he puts on the screen, nothing seems gratuitous.
I did see both Raavan and Raavanan and quite a few other films that he has been the cinematographer for and for me it just doesn't get old. Like I said it could totally be the fact that Hollywood doesn't really do this type of cinematography (except for the occasional Lord of the Rings) so for me it's always a treat to watch a movie that puts some emphasis on the visuals too. It's one reason why I love Indian cinema. But I do prefer the films where there is substance behind these great shots too and in Santosh Sivan's films I do find that substance.
Speaking of the visuals, I agree that some are recycled from one film to the other but I don't mind that as long as they have meaning. So for example watching them back to back, I was also surprised at how many elements were repeated from Roshni Se in Aaro Nee Aaro, and I read a bunch of other reviews where other similar elements were mentioned, but like I said, to me it doesn't get old so it's not really relevant that he used the same props or the same poses.
I do disagree vehemently though on the theory that he can only make the same movie. Despite the similarities in shots and poses, you will see that Urumi is a completely different type of film. I tried to touch on some of that when talking about the heroes, but Urumi is very much a perfect hero's tale (which is in complete contrast with Asoka), a revenge story set in a historical background. It doesn't have all the philosophy that Asoka does, it's much more action oriented. Also yes, this would be the fourth film I have seen from Sivan as a director, but I wouldn't even know where to begin comparing Tahaan to any of his other films, for example. So yeah, I think if anything certain scenes in Asoka were a preview for Urumi and they are expanded there, but to say that he can only make the same movie is completely out in the left field, so it's hard for me to even understand that statement enough to comment on it.
Last but not least, to answer your question, I've been known to be wrong before on certain aspects where I am lacking the cultural background, but I would be very surprised if the ash scene in Asoka was not aiming to show a hero defeated by his world getting turned to ashes, and his wish to become one with whatever was left of his loved one. And that is pretty much universal. If there was any religious significance to the gesture then yes, I have missed it, but when I was talking about that scene I was actually thinking more of how the "smeared" face appears in two scenes in the film and every time it's to show another layer of what was Asoka's personality in the beginning getting lost (or "hidden behind a mask" if you will). Of course, more than willing to accept corrections if I am completely wrong in my interpretation.
As far as Urumi goes, I would advise watching it first without too many preconceptions about what kind of movie it is. If you still don't like it, well, that's that :)
Louella commented:
I hate how you dissed Genelia. and the movie in whole.
Genelia was for me defenitely good. And Bebo's character was still deifferent. I actually planned to write my review of Urumi in the same way, I mean comparing it to Asoka but then I just though that these movies are way different, even if they seem pretty same.
Nicki commented:
I thought Asoka was loved? Or maybe money wise, it didn't do well?
It's funny you compare it with Asoka cause Louella did the same thing.
I don't know when I will buy another dvd. Okay, when Vedam offiically releases :D but I haven't watched much!
Hey Nicki, heh... as far as I know Asoka bombed at the box office and there is not a whole lot of love for it generally speaking :(
And yes, I'm not surprised that comparing the two is not terribly original :D When you watch Urumi you'll see that they are practically begging to be compared even if they are totally different films. The historic context, the cinematography, the relationships between the characters, you'll see why it's so easy to think of Asoka while watching Urumi (or the other way around depending on which one is first).
I would totally recommend Urumi on BluRay when it does come out, it's going to be worth it in my opinion. And for all we know, it may even be before Vedam! LOL 152ee80cbc
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