Embedded Files
A conversation between Ibrahima Wane and Ousmane Faty Ndongo
A conversation between Ibrahima Wane and Ousmane Faty Ndongo
scroll down for french version / version française en bas
Ibrahima Wane: Ousmane Ndongo, you are a literacy and computer graphics technician. You were a layout artist for Jaay doole bi, a left-wing newspaper, from the early 1980s. You have also worked as an editor and on the layout in several experimental publications in Senegal. But you had already heard of the Kàddu experience in the 1970s, something that probably marked your life in one way or another. Can you think back to your relationship with this newspaper and its promoters?
Ousmane Faty Ndongo is a technician in alphabetisation and an infographic. As a young militant maoist in the 1970s, he was a loyal reader of the journal Kaddu. Ousmane F. Ndongo was a graphic designer of different journals in the 1980s.
Ousmane Faty Ndongo: To talk about my relationship with Kàddu actually means to talk about the influence that Pathé Diagne had over me. The first time I read the Russian author Gogol’s The Overcoat was in Pathé Diagne’s Wolof translation Mantoob seytaane. That is to say that if I became interested in national languages, or more precisiely in Wolof, it is largely thanks to Pathé Diagne. After reading Mantoob Seytaane, I became interested in his other writings, especially his anthology of poetry in Wolof. So, gradually over time, I became interested in everything Pathé Diagne published in Wolof. When I learnt that he was publishing a newspaper in Wolof with Sembène and their group, I did everything to get a hold of it. I was often accompanied by Cheikh Ahmet Tidiane Guèye, who has passed away. Afterwards, Guèye would spend more time with the Kàddugroup on a consistent basis. I would visit Sembène every now and then. I think they would also meet in the Fass district. I had been there several times, especially when the Canadians gave them copying equipment. I went there with Cheikh Ahmet Tidiane Guèye. I went to visit Sembène. In the work that we were doing with poetry at that time in our neighbourhood, in Tillène, we relied greatly on the work of Pathé Diagne as well as the various issues of Kàddu to see how we could teach people to read and write in our national languages. The fact that I’m now working in the field of literacy and national languages, I owe it to Kàddu and Pathé Diagne. I can therefore say that I am one of those who has been influenced by Kàddu and Pathé Diagne.
Wane: There was also Pathé Diagne’s Sankoré Bookstore ...
Ousmane Faty Ndongo: Agh! We would go to the Sankoré bookshop, for not only was it Pathé Diagne’s bookshop but also because it was a left-wing bookstore. Given we could find left-wing literature there, we would go there to stock up. I went there to buy a copy of Pékin Information, for example, and books that could not be found in conventional bookstores.
Wane: Kàddu, it was also at that time there was that well-known linguistic quarrel between those on the left and Léopold Senghor.
Ousmane Faty Ndongo: Agh! Yes. It was all about gemination. The most striking examples were Siggi,[Siggi written with two “g”s means “rise up” in Wolof.] Cheikh Anta Diop’s newspaper, and Ceddo (1977), Sembène Ousmane's film. Senghor issued a decree stating that no gemination could be used. Gemination, however, allows one to differentiate two words that are close in pronunciation. Scientifically, Senghor was not correct. Pathé Diagne, Sembène and the others proved it to him. They demonstrated that he had other ideas in his head that had nothing to do with science. Those working on Kàddu fought this fight. Sembène refused to rewrite Ceddo using a single “d” (Cedo). This was to cost him, for his film Ceddo was not screened in Senegal until Senghor’s departure from power. But he held firm. So, it was these people who led the fight. Had they not done so, I wonder what would have become of our languages. They embarked on this fight, with all those who were in Kàddu and those influenced by Kàddu.
DAVID MURPHY: The question of African languages, and in your case Wolof, has always played an important role in your work. Why didn’t you continue to write in Wolof after the publication of Ceddo?
OUSMANE SEMBÈNE: The language question is primarily a political matter. Above all, Africans are pragmatic. A Wolof says to himself, “I have to learn French to get a job.” That’s how it works. It’s economic factors that determine these things. Why write in Wolof if the book will be banned? Senghor was illiterate in his own language. The word “ceddo” comes from pulaar and there is germination [i.e. a double “d”, not a single “d” as Senghor argued]. There were African linguists working with us on the newspaper Kaddu and Senghor had an Austrian linguist as his adviser. We were right. Why listen to a European? This was an African matter, the word comes from pulaar.
MURPHY: But the censorship of Ceddo wasn’t simply to do with linguistics, was it? Was it not also linked to your controversial interpretation of Senegalese history?
SEMBÈNE: Not really. The film was released before the birth of the fundamentalist movement. It was before the Islamic revolution in Iran. You know, the Shah of Iran wanted a copy of the film and I turned him down. Then, when Khomeini took over, I offered them a copy and they turned me down! That’s history for you.
MURPHY: What happened to the newspaper, Kaddu, that you mentioned earlier?
SEMBÈNE: We were losing money. I put in a lot of my money to allow the newspaper to survive but it couldn’t go on forever.
MURPHY: Do you think that the language question is still important?
SEMBÈNE: You know, Francophone Africa was the most colonised part of Africa. Most of the African civil servants were educated in schools set up to train people for the colonial service. If we hadn’t gained independence, these people would have become colonial officials. Here in Senegal, we have a national languages week. That reminds me of my childhood during the colonial era when there was a colonial week. Throughout the year, we learned about French history and culture, and then we had one week of local culture. It’s the same thing nowadays.
Interview conducted 30 November 1995. From Sembène: Imagining Alternatives in Film and Fiction by David Murphy (Trenton, NJ: Africa World Press, 2003). Reprinted in: Annett Busch, Max Annas (Ed.), Ousmane Sembène: Interviews, University Press of Mississippi, 2008.
OUSMANE SEMBÈNE: The language question is primarily a political matter. Above all, Africans are pragmatic. A Wolof says to himself, “I have to learn French to get a job.” That’s how it works. It’s economic factors that determine these things. Why write in Wolof if the book will be banned? Senghor was illiterate in his own language. The word “ceddo” comes from pulaar and there is germination [i.e. a double “d”, not a single “d” as Senghor argued]. There were African linguists working with us on the newspaper Kaddu and Senghor had an Austrian linguist as his adviser. We were right. Why listen to a European? This was an African matter, the word comes from pulaar.
MURPHY: But the censorship of Ceddo wasn’t simply to do with linguistics, was it? Was it not also linked to your controversial interpretation of Senegalese history?
SEMBÈNE: Not really. The film was released before the birth of the fundamentalist movement. It was before the Islamic revolution in Iran. You know, the Shah of Iran wanted a copy of the film and I turned him down. Then, when Khomeini took over, I offered them a copy and they turned me down! That’s history for you.
MURPHY: What happened to the newspaper, Kaddu, that you mentioned earlier?
SEMBÈNE: We were losing money. I put in a lot of my money to allow the newspaper to survive but it couldn’t go on forever.
MURPHY: Do you think that the language question is still important?
SEMBÈNE: You know, Francophone Africa was the most colonised part of Africa. Most of the African civil servants were educated in schools set up to train people for the colonial service. If we hadn’t gained independence, these people would have become colonial officials. Here in Senegal, we have a national languages week. That reminds me of my childhood during the colonial era when there was a colonial week. Throughout the year, we learned about French history and culture, and then we had one week of local culture. It’s the same thing nowadays.
Interview conducted 30 November 1995. From Sembène: Imagining Alternatives in Film and Fiction by David Murphy (Trenton, NJ: Africa World Press, 2003). Reprinted in: Annett Busch, Max Annas (Ed.), Ousmane Sembène: Interviews, University Press of Mississippi, 2008.
Parler de Kàddu, c’est parler de l’influence que Pathé Diagne a eue sur moi
Parler de Kàddu, c’est parler de l’influence que Pathé Diagne a eue sur moi
Ibrahima Wane : Ousmane Ndongo, vous êtes technicien en alphabétisation et infographe. Vous avez été maquettiste du journal Jaay doole bi, journal de gauche, du début des années 1980. Vous avez également travaillé comme maquettiste et rédacteur dans plusieurs expériences de publications au Sénégal. Mais vous avez connu dans les années 1970 l’expérience Kàddu qui vous a probablement marqué d’une façon ou d’une autre. Est-ce que vous pouvez revenir sur vos rapports avec ce journal et ses promoteurs ?
Ousmane Faty Ndongo: Parler de mes rapports avec Kàddu, c’est parler en fait de l’influence que Pathé Diagne a eue sur moi. Parce que la première fois que j’ai lu Le manteau de Gogol, écrivain russe, c’était à travers la traduction de Pathé Diagne en wolof : Mantoob seytaane. C’est pour vous dire que si je me suis intéressé aux langues nationales, précisément au wolof, c’est en grande partie grâce à Pathé Diagne.
Après avoir lu Mantoob seytaane, je me suis intéressé à ses autres écrits, surtout à l’anthologie de la poésie en wolof. Donc, de fil en aiguille, je me suis intéressé à tout ce que Pathé Diagne faisait en wolof. Quand j’ai vu qu’il publiait avec Sembène et leur groupe un journal en wolof, je faisais tout pour l’avoir. Et j’étais souvent accompagné par Cheikh Ahmet Tidiane Guèye (qui est décédé). C’est ce dernier qui était par la suite plus constant dans la fréquentation du groupe Kàddu. Moi, j’allais de temps en temps chez Sembène. Je pense qu’ils se rencontraient aussi au quartier de Fass. J’y suis allé à plusieurs reprises surtout lorsque les Canadiens leur ont donné du matériel de reproduction. Je suis allé là-bas avec Cheikh Ahmet Tidiane Guèye. Je suis allé chez Sembène.
C’est pour vous dire que, dans le travail que nous faisions à l’époque, dans notre quartier, à Tillène, autour de la poésie, on a beaucoup utilisé le travail de Pathé Diagne et aussi les numéros de Kàddu pour voir comment apprendre aux gens à lire et à écrire dans les langues nationales. Donc, si je suis aujourd’hui dans le domaine de l’alphabétisation et des langues nationales, je le dois à Kàddu et à Pathé Diagne. Je peux dire donc que je fais partie des gens qui ont été influencés par Kàddu et par Pathé Diagne.
Wane: Il y avait également la Librairie Sankoré de Pathé Diagne…
Ousmane Faty Ndongo: Ah ! La librairie Sankoré, on la fréquentait parce que, non seulement, c’était la librairie de Pathé Diagne mais aussi parce que c’était une librairie de gauche. Il y avait de la littérature de gauche, et on y allait pour s’approvisionner. J’y allais pour acheter par exemple Pékin Information et des livres qu’on ne pouvait pas trouver dans les librairies traditionnelles.
Wane: Kàddu, c’est aussi le moment où il y a eu la fameuse querelle linguistique entre les gens de la gauche et Senghor…
Ousmane Faty Ndongo: Ah ! Oui. C’était sur la gémination. Les exemples les plus frappants, c’étaient Siggi, le journal de Cheikh Anta Diop, et Ceddo, le film de Sembène Ousmane. Senghor a sorti un décret pour dire qu’il n’y a pas de gémination alors que la gémination permet de différencier deux mots proches dans la prononciation. Scientifiquement Senghor n’avait pas raison. Pathé Diagne, Sembène et les autres le lui ont prouvé. Ils ont montré qu’il avait d’autres idées derrière la tête qui n’avaient à avoir avec la science. Les gens qui étaient dans Kàddu ont mené cette lutte-là. Sembène a refusé de réécrire Ceddo avec un seul d (Cedo). Ce que cela lui coûté, c’est que jusqu’au départ de Senghor du pouvoir, le film Ceddo n’a pas été diffusé au Sénégal. Mais il a tenu. Donc ce sont ces gens-là qui ont mené le combat. S’ils ne l’avaient pas fait, je me demande ce que seraient devenues nos langues actuellement. Ils ont mené cette lutte, avec tous ceux qui étaient dans Kàddu et ceux qui ont été influencés par Kàddu.
Ousmane Faty Ndongo est technicien en alphabétisation et infographe. Jeune militant maoïste dans les années 1970, il était un fidèle lecteur du journal Kàddu. Ousmane F. Ndongo a été maquettiste de divers de journaux dans les années 1980.
Google Sites
Report abuse