Art Reviews

Stephen Goodfellow at Bastard Gallery, 422 Willis Ave. Detroit, Michigan May, 1978

Stephen Goodfellow came to Detroit in 1975 from England and completed his MFA at Wayne State University in 1977. The following interview is in conjunction with an exhibit of his work at The Sustard Gallery, a name that Goodfellow cored to describe the space that he's arranged for his own exhibition. Goodfellow was interviewed by Diane Spodwet on March 20, 1978 at The Bastard Gallery. The following was approved by Stephen Goodfellow.

Where were you born?

I was born in South Hampton in South England. I was only bom there and then moved to Nigeria with my family and stayed there two years and got malaria. I lived most of my life in Denmark: Danish is my first language.

Okay. You're going to have a show at The Bastard Gallery. 

Where we are now.

Which is the old Willis Gallery on Willis street, not to be confused with the old Willis in the Fisher Building. What gave you the idea to use this space?

Basically you gave me the idea because of the Alternative Space. I just took it one step further. Instead of working through any organization, why not do it yourself.

Which makes more sense to you?

Well yes, because having been the Director of the Artist Guild for a year, I learned a lot about organizing a gallery. I would say to anybody, anybody who has got anything in their work that is worth exhibiting, you can do it, you can put up your own exhibition, anytime, anywhere. After this exhibition, this isn't the last - this is only the beginning. I plen next year to try somewhere else, not necessarily this city. I would like to find something in Chicago. I'll find the contacts, an old vecant place and I'll move in there. I'll somehow somewhere scrounge it up, put up posters - I'll do the whole works all over again and then I'll try somewhere else, and somewhere else.

So you're not thinking of the possibility of connecting up with an established gallery?

No. I don't know why. I'm just responding to my feelings. how I feel at the present. I feel bad about wanting to go to a "respectable" gallery and sit there and whine, and say, "Gan ! have a show?" Maybe it's too much pride. I know people who like my work so I'm going to do it myself. It brings the price right down. The only person I have to answer to is myself, there is no commission. There may be 10% for the work I'm putting into it, the money I'm spending putting the place together.

Are you going to be sitting here the whole time?

Yes, it is going to be up two weeks. I want to be available to people.

Why this space rather than a cheaper space, like a studio show?

This cheap. Henry Normile who owns Cobbs Bar literally gave it to me. I hadn't originally thought of using the Willis Gallery. I looked at other spaces all around. It's sort of strange being in the Willis Gallery knowing it had such a long history. I sort of feel the ghosts here.

This has memories for me too. One of my first rejections... 

Really?

Yeah, sitting right here. Yeah, exactly right where I'm sitting now.

You got rejected?

Yeah, I had a video monitor set up right here and they were all sitting there, and they all laughed at it.

It's a rotten world isn't it? If you set up your own space, no one is going to laugh at you. The only person that is going to laugh at you is yourself; there's no one to put judgement across to you. At the Artist Guild I hated to put judgement across to people. I was more sure of myself then of what I thought was good and what was bad. I was only looking at black and whites then, and as I get older, I see only grays. 

As you get older? It's only been one year.

Well, it's been one hell of a year. That's not a pessimistic outlook. I think I've learned something from that. If I see something and I like it, it doesn't have to have any logical background. If I just like it, it's good enough for me. I like to be as honest with myself as I can. I'll never run a gallery again or be an art director again.

You mentioned earlier that you are working on two series: the Discord Series and the Tarot Series.

Yeah, or the Tarot Suite. There are two different approaches in them. There is more freedom and the imagination is less restricted in the Discord Series. The Tarot Series imposes a certain discipline in that the hands and the faces, although they are not exactly what is on the card, are in the same positions. And these cards are the major arcana in tarot cards. I've only learned this recently; there is a major arcana and a minor arcana. The mystical element to me is super- fluous. I'm not into tarot cards or readings. History has always had a powerful affect on me. Tarot cards go back pre- Egyptian, they go back to Symarian and I have such respect for something that has been around and still used, and still being used by an increasing amount. The cards change, the images change. This is the Marseilles pack which I think was done in the 15th century, but the symbols of what they mean hasn't changed for thousands of years, and that's baffling. This concept is still alive and breathing in Detroit and around the world.

Getting back to the images of the series, I look to the pack. or the image of the cards for inspiration. For instance, how do I feel a magician would be today. The magician today would be someone, perhaps, who would be a modern alchemy who has got wierd instruments around him...

I saw it as a woman.

It could be a woman. It's entirely up to you.

But you're not saying it is or isn't. Some of these images are definitely men and some are definitely women... a beard... obviously it is a man.

Yes, right. I leave a lot open to interpretation to the individual person. In that sense, I'm pretty vague.

What about the cloth on the head in the artist as "Fool" in this drawing.

That is a very practical thing. When I draw I stand back and look, and put my hand over my head, and so I get chalk all over my head. I don't know if you've ever seen this but you take a handkerchief and you tie a knot in each corner and you put it on your head. It's real comfortable and it doesn't get in the way. You can throw it away afterwards. So, I don't have to wash my hair every time I work.

We haven't mentioned the medium. Maybe we should talk about it.

Yeah, chalk. There are many different types of chalk. I love chalk. I like working with chalk. I feel more comfortable working with chalk then most other mediums I've tried. It seems to flow naturally for me. A paint brush I have to dip: it's an interruptive process. Chalk is a continuation; I can just sit there; I can hold three or four pieces of chalk and I don't have to dip anything away from the image. I can keep my eye on it while I work.

I always thought of you as a printmaker.

I'm not a printmaker, I'm an artist. The reason I went to school was not to be a printmaker or a painter, it was to learn all of those things so I could put them to my own use. I don't feel any pride in being a printmaker or an oil painter. I use these things, they don't rule me. I rule them to my advantage. 

How many drawings will you have in the show?

I think twenty-three, if I can make it in time. If you'll notice almost each one has a pyramid in it. I look at the pyramid in the same way as the Tarot cards. I'm particulary interested in the pyramid with the eye in it, like the dollar bill. I haven't found anyone who has given me any reasonable explanation for what that stands for and yet it's such a magnetic symbol. My personal feeling about this pyramid is that it is very evil. I don't know why, it's just that every time I look at that symbol, it gives me the chills. I see it standing for authority in many ways. I don't have any particular political ties or political inclinations, but I don't like being told what to do.

When I first walked into this space, these things were talking to me as something very specific about Detroit and I was wondering if they were about Detroit. Of course, they could be any city, but you were not born and raised here, or in this country.

I think Detroit has had an influence on me. I would like to say that's apparent but I haven't consciously tried to put that into the work. They are all human figures and I hadn't done figures until I came to Detroit; in fact, not until about two and a half years ago.

But the figures seem to be tough guys rather than.... 

Some aren't bad. If you had asked me if this had anything to do with social commentary, although I don't want to be classified as such, in a way I would have to say yes, in a vague sort of way.

What about the caricature type of images.

That's very easy to explain. That's the way I dow human beings. As you can imagine, being in an academic progen have been under attack for doing it this way, it evolved this way, the lines I use in it, the way I project these people.. comes from within me.

You could draw the human figures.....

Yeah, sure, but i would be terribly bored by it I did it back in foundation course but they could have been done by a thousand people

Do you believe that an artist.....

No

....that an artist who draws the human figure must know first how to render it anatomically correct before interpreting it?

No, I disagree with that. I think it's a useless performance. The only resource you should take from is within. I have a marvelous gift: forgetfulness, I have seen a lot of my Miends destroyed because an instructor will say something about their work, and they will remember what the instructor said, I don't have that problem. I'm sincere, I'm not an insincere person if an instructor says to me, you do this, and you do that, and you bring this out here," I listen and go, "wow, he's so right, what he says makes sense," and go away and fill forget it. I think that's a blessing in some ways because my work doesn't become someone else's idea, but what my idea should be. I'm not trying to be everything to everybody, I'm just trying to be myself. And I hope that you'll be yourself and not someone else's ideas of what you should be

You have a framing border drawn on the work

That's a recent thing. All these pictures are going to be without fames, you'll notice the glass around the one. They will not be framed unless have control over the frame. tale lack of control, Frames seem so final and depersonalized as if the artist made a statement which can be stuck inside a general statement, namely the frame. I want to get away from that I start all my work building these fames

You make the frames first?

Yean, I make the fames and then I start my work. I look for instance at the...keep forgetting the names of them...the "Informer" you look at it you will notice it is the same as the fame that is around it.

Oh yes, I thought it was a woman

Okay, it's a woman.

Well, I thought I saw a breast

Where?

Here.

It could be a sagging shirt; okay, it's a breast. There are men informers and there are women informers

I really don't think that framing is so noticeable.

No, it's not supposed to be; It's not the important thing. The frame is incidental. The framing sets the mood I have to work in. in if you have white walls and a white piece of paper you stick on the walls, it's just another continuation. So what I did is to build this structure around it before I started, working inside it. I support them to the hilt because I think they're good, and that's why I like them.