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April 15, 2009 at 09:46 PMĀ The discussion on another thread regarding Bach's music opens another subject area. Bach certainly autographed a large number of his works with a reference to God, but I find it odd that music which has no text (as in the sonatas/partitas discussed on another thread) can be identified as religious in nature simply because it was written by Bach. Bach certainly wrote works that were not written for the church (his gig though was as a church musician). But can we identify his instrumental works that were religious or non-religious simply by hearing their melody or harmony--or can we hear his intent because of voice leading? That interpretation can certainly leave the door open for many unintended consequences--some of which people (and some churches) are grappling with on a weekly basis. If we allow that some instrumental music can be identified as religious (or referencing God), then we also have instrumental music that is non-religious or pagan. Taking that thought process further, we then have music that must have other intrinsic qualities also, such as instrumental music that is inherently good or evil. Hummmm... slippery slope indeed.
April 15, 2009 at 10:13 PMĀ music is music. there is no christian music. no secular music. there are christian lyrics and secular lyrics. but also consider that if God created everyone in his image with the capacity to also create, then is everything not also spiritual?
April 16, 2009 at 12:54 AMĀ I know it sounds really beginner, but when I listen to music, I imagine what I want and don't even bother to imagine if it is in relation with "religion" or not. If it makes me think of something divine, it is because it is very beautiful and no more! The contrary is true also for me! :) But I know Bach did a lot of officially named "church music"
April 16, 2009 at 02:12 AMĀ This is a really fun question! You have to think about the context in which the music was written. I cannot say I'm much of an expert because it's been awhile since I read that section in Grout. However, one interesting factoid: The "C" meaning 4/4 time doesn't stand for common time; it's an incomplete circle. Composers used to use a full circle for 3/4 or "Perfect" time. It was thought that the number three was sacred (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and he will occasionally evoke this.
For example, I will be supervising an hour-long after school detention next month, and I believe that I will find a minute-long snippet of music, say something insipid and irritating from the likes of some common shallow pop "artist" and loop it incessantly for the entire hour.
April 16, 2009 at 03:51 AMĀ When I was in high school, some kids got detentions for throwing a protest. So, the teacher that had to supervise detention that day brought his old protest music on vinyl and played through the entire detention as punishment.
April 16, 2009 at 05:24 AMĀ In my late teens I was a reborn christian (nobody is perfect ;-). I played electric guitar in my church band, it was in the 70s. Then they told me not to play Santana tunes, because Santana was then a dedicated follower of some obscure guru. They argued that his music was evil. I continued to play Santana songs (to great sucess) and explained that through my christian mind, soul and fingers this evil heathen music gets transformed into sacred music, inspired by the holy spirit. This experience was one reason for me to gradually become unable to take religion for serious.
Btw, a lot of the most beautiful baroque music uses religious themes and inspiration. The music is still alive and fresh, but the spiritual background is outdated. (I prefer instrumental music, partly because many of the words used in baroque oratorios kind of offend me.) It is significant that this music makes no difference between glorifying a secular or a ("the" ;-) divine lord, it's only a matter of who payed for the composer's job. So it is obvious that the music itself contains no spirituality in whatever sense, even if there may be some elements interpreted as symbols.
April 16, 2009 at 01:14 PMĀ Instrumental music can sound like it has religious (or pagan, or folk, or martial) themes but that doesn't make it inherently "good" or "bad." Music is not about ethical or moral values or personal improvement. It's art. Art is artifice, an artificial creation which has psychological resonance with the listener but leaves the listener about as good (or bad) as before the listening experience.
April 16, 2009 at 01:58 PMĀ We could discuss the relative beauty of music: of course there is a level of subjectivity here, but we would probably be able to agree on the extremes of beauty and ugliness.
Now, because people seem to want to equate beauty with virtue, or "good", we also seem to want to equate ugly with evil. If we held to this way of thinking, then we would say this music, being beautiful, is good, and vice versa.
April 16, 2009 at 10:13 PMĀ Interesting discussion and one that I've run into several times as a Christian violinist. While definitely many composers used symbolism in music, I think the bigger questions is "What does the music itself communicate?"
For example--we would all agree that music does communicate emotion, evoke images, etc. We would not all agree what specific emotions or images a certain piece of music might evoke! However, especially among certain ages or cultures there would probably be a similarity of interpretation.
The Bach discussion probably deals more with the symbolism side, though I haven't studied that in a while. The interpretation side is the one I tend to encounter more and the one most of us seem to be talking about--a good question might be, what does this music communicate? to me, as well as to my audience (which may be slightly different things)? Once I have an idea what it communicates, can I call that objectively good or bad, or can I determine whether it's appropriate or inappropriate for my purpose.
I have a hard time making an "objective" call at least for most music (i.e. this piece always expresses something good or bad) because context and interpretations can be so variable. But the appropriateness criteria is used all the time in stores, filmscores, etc. because music does communicate; that's its premise! Now, whether a certain kind of music is appropriate to honor the God you serve--that depends on what your God (or no God) is like. And that's a whole different discussion.
April 17, 2009 at 02:54 AMĀ Can written musical notes on a page, without text, have moral qualities? Probably not. But music is a communicative, performative art. In a particular context, a performance of a piece could be said to be "good" or "evil."
April 17, 2009 at 03:13 AMĀ Gene Wie--- I have the perfect piece of insipid music for you to play for your after school detention. Its called "Shanty Town" by an artist called Mr. Scruff. Its on his album titled "Keeping It Unreal". Its a .99 cent download on iTunes. Listen to a little bit and you'll agree that it would be great for what you need it for.
April 17, 2009 at 04:42 AMĀ As I (former) High School teacher I would think that the detention kids should have their time filled with scrubbing desks and cleaning walls with really great music playing. Not some crap that they hear all the time but--wonderful inspirational music--maybe even some of the best string students could volunteer to play so that the detentionees will:
April 17, 2009 at 05:05 AMĀ Given a little more thought to the idea of "good" and "evil" I think that some music could be designed to give into the dark side of a person. Like the tattoo that you get--and hide somewhere. Could a composer or artist decide that Ok, the church is paying for all this music or i am painting all these wealthy merchants in this fresco for the church wall and now i want to throw in something really evil--because I can.
Relating to the dark side of one's nature could produce an "evil" sound. We know that some artists deliberately do not give all their work a pretty or idealized look. Do we, because it was composed by such and such or painted by this or that person--we tend to classify it in a certain way. Maybe by the standards of the majority of their work (?) What shapes our feelings about hearing a piece of music? Is it built on prior knowlege or feelings about similar pieces of music? Where were we when we heard it first? Did it touch most of us in the same way? Does our "clan" ultimately decide? Another thought. Is 'evil" music good because it is like a roller coaster or a horror movie? Something to jolt you out of your confort zone.
When I heard Adagio for Strings for the fist time it was a spiritual experience (not just an emotional experience). In Christian terminology the Holy Spirit ministered to my spirit through the music. I have found that God loves me and desires to reveal Himself and His love to me in many ways. I just wish I paid more attention sometimes.
April 17, 2009 at 11:13 AMĀ I once believed that if music came with a certain label, it was evil, but if it had another label, it was good. Then I came around to the understanding that God himself did not put those labels there. So, rather than follow the man-made designations, I thought about what it was that gave certain music the label it got. 0852c4b9a8
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