Chasing the opportunity: an interview with a bioengineer

When family reunions turned to Zoom, it was a look into everyone's homes and their lives. An opportunity to really listen to everyone's life update, I learned that Dora, my cousin's partner, was working herself to death to develop COVID-19 tests. A woman of color in STEM at the nexus of engineering and public health, I was very honored to interview Dora for this project.

Lizzy: I'm excited to talk to you and like pick your brain. I think it'd be great to get started about your academic path, like, What did you study in undergrad? And then what happened from there?

Dora: Sure. Yeah. I'll try to be concise, because yes, that could be, you know, a very, very long answer. say so. Okay. So my academic background, I studied bioengineering at UC Berkeley. And at the time, and I think, you know, this is relevant because the field has evolved and expanded so much, which is one of the best things about, at least to me, about this field and being in it. At the time, though, it was just a very generic nebulous thing, I think, even misunderstood, and it mostly has been focused around, like genetic engineering and the human genome, which was, and is now I think, is kind of one of the, you know, biggest breakthroughs as we move into molecular medicine. But at the time, the other big thing were prosthetic limbs and things like that. So my focus was actually in biomechanical and material science, because I kind of was very interested in advancements of medicine through artificial limbs, artificial organs. So that was actually my focus as I got my degree. Now, I think if you talk to a lot of scientists, you know, you might find that this is more common than not, you end up having some twists and turns.

So that's where I started and I thought I was going to be, but actually ended up having my first internship in at the Lawrence Livermore Lab, while I was still in school, and joined their medical technology group which was focused on things like that, as well, mainly was was working with a team that was working with like, materials for transplants and organs. And there were a lot of different things going on at the time. So as a student and an intern, I had the opportunity to just kind of join different projects. And that was my intro into other aspects of bioengineering and kind of started kind of dipping my toe into more, what we've come to see as, point of care, which was like, this new phase of medicine. It's where you're going to go into the doctor's office and have these fancy machines that will be able to test you and diagnose different diseases. Underlying to that was the beginning of molecular biology, molecular medicine diagnostics. And so, just kind of stepped more and more in that direction, eventually got connected into working on developing diagnostic instrumentation, which the intent was to detect disease.

Initially, I took a stint in detecting environmental pathogens, so actually kind of in your realm, an environment where we were developing units, and testing the environment for harmful substances. So early in my career, I jumped into supporting a lot of response for Homeland Security, when 9/11 happened, you might be too young for that. But short, during that time, after those awful events, there was also a lot around bio warfare, right in those threats. And so detection along that and so, I got the chance to work on things like that. That totally shifted me away from my initial intent into more of these diagnostic instrumentations. So anyway, like I said, I could go on, right, but my point, in that, in terms of academic and career was, is that I have not at all ended up where I thought I was or where I started, which is actually a good thing. And very typical for being in this field that is so diverse and has so much opportunity to learn.

So, since then moved into developing molecular, diagnostic tests, and spent a good part of the last two and a half years developing COVID tests, and doing all of the development and validation for all of the EUA submissions for the testing, that was deployed for the pandemic, and have now moved into business development in finding opportunities with other developers for new novel diagnostic tests, mainly back into the medical realm in terms of disease, infectious disease, inherited diseases, so much more solidly into the molecular medicine.

Lizzy: Well, I think first off, I really appreciate that you mentioned like, yeah, you're not where you thought you were gonna be, because I think that, at least when I entered college, or even now, I feel like, especially my parents, or at least my dad are like, "Okay, you're going to get this degree and then have this career, and then you're just going to work your way up. And that's going to be like your pathway for the rest of your life." And I think it's definitely that was true during his time, right, but not really so much true, like, in my field, nor in in this time. So I think that's always important to remember, because I'm like, "Oh, my God, like, what, what am I gonna do?"

Dora: I mean, when I talk to students, or even people just starting out in their career, right, that is definitely a point I like to make and just kind of reassure them in that, you know, the benefit of my experience, right, having gone through it, and as you go through and it sounds you have already is that, yes, don't be afraid to shift right to try something new. Even if it's not where you thought you were going. Because that's where the opportunities come up. And that's where you will be able to continue advancing, right? For example, I had started and, not that artificial lens and an artificial organs are not still a huge very important field, right, but molecular medicine is where a lot of things started going. And where there's still a lot. So, then you have the opportunity to kind of like, "Oh, this is like the the next thing, or this is also big," and you're able to take your skills, your knowledge, and apply them there. Right, and you're right. It absolutely is a different world, too, it's not how it used to be where you just pick a lane, and you stick to it, and then you advance in that, right. And like, whatever your aspirations are, you want to be able to say, "Oh, I got to work on these things. And I can do you know, I understand environmental science, I understand statistics, understand business development," and so on, which is a much more kind of diverse set of skills.

Lizzy: No, right. Yeah, I love that, that viewpoint. And I'm convincing my dad every day.

Dora: If you need help, we can dominate. I think I think your dad, I don't know if it's a Mau thing, because I can definitely relate to it, is that they're very set in their ways. And they're right, and you're wrong. Unless you prove them right. And even so they're still not gonna believe you.

Lizzy: Yeah, yeah, I think he's just like, I'm just gonna ignore it for now. I'm like, yeah, just do that. I'll figure it out. I'm curious. Also, did you go to grad school?

Dora: No, I did not. I kind of skipped over that. So my intent was to actually do that. And that is why I actually was at Lawrence Livermore. The intern program setting you up to do grad school either at Berkeley, like one of the UCs or, you know, any, because it's this big, like, national lab and had a lot of like, academic ties. So, it's very interesting. I've talked to a lot of friends and colleagues in the engineering route, because it's so applied. A lot of the time, it really doesn't make sense to do... maybe you want a master's degree, again, depending on how you want to apply it. But usually, it's more to your benefit to just get the work experience in industry. What happened with me was that there was going to be a year or two that I had committed to continue my post internship before going to grad school. And before that year was over was when I was reassigned to work on the environmental detection systems, with Homeland Security. So actually, for about four years time, was in the frontlines. And bicoastal, between California and New York, working with folks to develop and field these things. And like, I totally discovered that, like, that was where I wanted to be, I did not want to go back in the classroom, and spend another, I don't know, three to five years getting a degree because I was actually getting all of the knowledge and experience on the job. You know, and it depends what you want to do with that degree, right? There are certain things that if, depending on where you want to go, that you really should continue and get that advanced degree, but it may not be necessary. And in my case, I just made the decision that I didn't want to continue with grad school, and instead just continued learning through different opportunities, right?

Lizzy: Yeah. Yeah, I think there's like this whole debacle, especially at UC is like, well, you should just keep going to school. But I think, as a result, you overlook the real world experience. As a student, I feel like everything's become really idealized, or like, ideally, like, I'm going to be making discoveries every day (in grad school) and you know, doing really cool amazing things. So yeah, I really hope that, you know, doing real work will be. I don't know, I'm curious about that path. So I'm excited to go to those things in a few months.

Dora: Yeah. I mean, then kind of back to again, the, "don't be afraid to change," right? I thought I needed to go to grad school, I wanted to go to grad school, and then that changed. And I was like, "Oh, am I making the wrong decision here? Should I go to grad school? I should have an advanced degree." And I mean, in my case, it was the right choice. For me, for what I wanted. And again, it means different things to different folks. What is it that you want to get out of it? You know, maybe when you're out, you're like, I'm not sure exactly what I want to do, I want to go learn more. So you know, then it probably is a good idea to continue exploring that. And, you know, advance your, your education and get an advanced degree while you're at it.

Lizzy: Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I've met a lot of people who are super passionate, and their PhD programs, or even their masters, and they're like, "I knew I wanted to do this." So I think, yeah, it depends on the person, and the experiences that you have.

I'm curious to like about where you are now, like, what the everyday is like at your job, and I don't know, new things that were unexpected that you learned in this role?

Dora: Sure. Okay, so where I am now. So I see, you know, in the last, gosh, what is this March, in the last four months, I actually took on a new position, completely different from my previous roles. I moved from being in the in the R&D function to being in the in the business commercial function. And so, moved from being more focused in leading the development side, where you're doing the technical pieces, and driving a lot of that work, to now being on more of the market and business development side in understanding kind of what is the market like, what are what are right now, the dynamics and the needs, in terms of where the technologies are going, where medical technology is going. And for my company, basically driving that strategy, and working with customers, be it academic, be it the big companie, be it startups, who are out there developing, you know, the latest and greatest in working with them to enable them, and partnering with our company, which is a huge kind of conglomerate almost, that has such a, you know, a very broad portfolio for like, different technologies that developers can use for all these new tests. So it's been actually really, it's like starting sort of new, taking all of the skills and knowledge I've gained so far in my career, and applying them into now being more of a kind of a business driver, with working with the folks on the technical side, using my technical knowledge to respond to their needs, understand what they're doing. It's very exciting because I get to work with all kinds of folks doing all kinds of new things, and seeing what's in the horizon. And it's also very international, which is another thing in terms of the field, right? Because medicine and biotechnology is so global. Right? I mean, there's, there's a lot of different fields that are like that, too. But in that sense, in, in getting getting a view into it's like, not just what we are exposed to we see in the US, but for example, you know, what are the dynamics in Europe? What are the tests that people need in Europe? What are the dynamics in China? And how does that, you know, medical technology advanced there? So I'm working with a lot more diverse teams, and very international now. So learning a lot in terms of not just the business aspect, but also that global exposure that, you know, is new for me in this new role.

Lizzy: I want to know if your outlook on just biotech and public health has changed after working through a pandemic, and you know, going through grinding out all of those tests? And if so, like, how, how has your outlook changed?

Dora: I would say it definitely has, both in kind of positive and negative respects. I think on the positive my outlook, in terms of like, not realizing just the, the capacity of being able to respond to a global pandemic. And by that, I mean, in terms of the science being so advanced for us being able to advance it so quickly. And that kind of like global, again, reach to be able to leverage all of that. So I think it's, for better or for worse, right, it's kind of shown us that there is, we should have a little bit more of that kind of connection. And hopefully, we'll be able to, we'll see how we go.

And the negative... well, or not so positive, I think it's not so much an outlook, more of like, a realization in terms of like, there's so much potential in the technology, there's so much we can do. But we still, we, we still stumble on the execution. And as it relates to the pandemic, like I remember, in those early days, when stuff first started happening was what, like March 2020, February, March, I think, when things really kind of like, came to a standstill, standstill, we were working 24/7 to do the test development and validation and scale them and do all of those things. And then it was crazy, because again, like being able to leverage that the manpower, the brainpower, the globalness of it. But then the biggest challenges were like, operations based. The public health system was not set up, and I think still there's a lot of opportunities for improvement for how to operationalize this. It was so hard to spin up labs to do this testing, mass testing. It's like how, like, how to identify how to, I mean, I think, you know, still excellent efforts, but it was just surprising into in terms of like, to me that my perspective was that our public health system has processes in place to be able to, all we have to do is develop the tests and make sure they work and make sure that they get to where they need to. And then what needs to happen will happen. But, but that's not true. I think we've learned a lot. And like I said, I think there were excellent efforts in making it happen, but I think I was, I was definitely very surprised, as to like, just how not streamlined that was. And don't even get me started in terms of the global piece of it, because that's very frustrating. Global equity, and and how that impacts, you know, like having third world countries or underdeveloped countries that don't have the same access. And again, you know, we can crank out a million tests a week, but the mechanisms aren't in place, or the, the global alignment isn't in place to be able to get them to where they need to go. To do what needs to happen to keep people safe. And make make it equitable, health wise, globally.

Lizzy: The global equity part, it's really getting to me, it's so hard, because I think people have a really straightforward view of like, science should just be, well, I don't know if this is true. This is a generalization that I'm I'm making, but, you know, I feel like, at its best, like, like you said, scientists just do science to, to crank out these tests and like, things would work really optimally. But it's like, really, to me, it's really scary to see how embeded I guess, politics and also, like, racism, and imperialism, is like really embedded in, in these, like basic public health systems and how access to like, literally basic health care, because we all experienced the pandemic is, it is just, like, so impossible to access basic health care, because of the ways that, you know, people want to hoard things. And and the US just wants to, yeah, there's a lot of this could be a different topic of conversation.

Dora: It's a whole different topic. Yeah. But you're right, kind of right. Like, you touched on the politics of it. I think another big piece is like the, I don't know how I would define it, but the capitalism of it, right? To put it mildly, in terms of like, how that that has an impact, as far as health equity, but, you know, that lack of recognition, and then it's like, you know, we're, we're all going to eventually be affected, because it's a global problem, right. So, we should all have the same access, and we should worry about these other nations, and you know, the access, and not just about like, "well, we're fine, as long as we've got tests, and we've got vaccines, and we've got whatever," right?

Lizzy: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's definitely like coming across, over and over again, at least at a micro scale at my school where, you know, teachers are like, well, we're just gonna talk about the environment like, and that's the basics, but without including, like people in the socio political environment that we've created and capitalism, like, it basically means nothing, right? Because, like, without taking those things into consideration, then it's basically useless to theorize or create and talk about all these what ifs, because this is just the reality of where we're at. And to not consider, again, equity in all of these things as a part of science at this point, I think is a little bit negligent. At least that's my perspective after living through all of this.

Dora: I have discussions around this all the time. If this is something you're interested in, you can jump in and join me and Emily [Emily is my cousin and Dora's partner]. We're constantly talking because, as a scientist and kind of like having that perspective. I you know, I would always joke and, you know, these last couple of years, made my point where I would be like, you know, we really don't understand the impact that infectious disease has on us. And the fact that it when you think about like the food chain is... we are mistakenly assuming that we're at the top of the food chain in terms of our vulnerabilities. Right? And I would joke, well, not so much joke, actually, it was serious, that viruses are actually at the top of the food chain. The joke was the zombie apocalypse kind of. But my point to that, though, is it's like if you're talking about the top of the food chain, that's a global threat, right? And so you can take that kind of gated community perspective, right? And it's like, well, we'll protect ourselves and do that. And it's just like, but that's not how it works. And you're not going to be able to keep it out. And the, you know, the pandemic. It's an example because it's like, you know, it's not over yet, right? It's like, oh, okay, we've kind of contained it. Oh, wait, no, we did it. Oh, wait, we're almost there. Oh, wait, no, we did it. Right. And like, until we start thinking about it more globally, and stop politicizing it and stop making it about capitalism, then we're... We're making it worse for ourselves. But we'll see.