Ep. 6: David Woo

Elaine 

Hey everyone, this is Elaine and you're listening to Cha-Tea Circle. I visited David Woo, who works as a counselor and mentor at Nanoom, a faith based addiction treatment center in Koreatown, Los Angeles, on the eve of the Dragon Lunar Year. I first met David online in May 2021 during a Zoom panel hosted by the Young Buddhist Editorial.

In today's episode, you'll hear about David's work with his organization, Burning Pride, his own journey with Buddhism and addiction recovery, as well as the need to diversify the kinds of Asian American stories in the media. In other words, moving beyond the “fancy Asian jungle Asian” binary that comedian and actress Ali Wong has talked about.

David

Thank you for having me. It's so great to see you again and I'm just glad to be here and glad to have this conversation with you. When's the last time we saw each other? It was almost a year now, right? 

Elaine

Yeah, it was at the conference where you presented a paper at the title right here, “The Noble Truth of Asian American Addiction and Recovery” and you were workshopping. It was a great reception. I wonder if you could summarize really quickly the idea behind that paper. 

David

Sure. Maybe firstly, there's this traditional approach to academics being kind of third person outside looking in approach and kind of borrowing from critical race theory, there's this idea of  the epistemologies of people of color or looking at it from an emic first person.

So in that view, if I'm studying Asian American addiction, and how Buddhism can offer a path to recovery, well, I could just maybe also share my own story as someone that's Asian American, that is an addict in recovery and is also Buddhist. So looking at how those three come together in my own life and in the lives of those that are around me.

Elaine

Because you touched on your own story, I wonder if you would tell your story in a way you feel comfortable. 

David

Sure. Yeah, I grew up in the Los Angeles area of Southern California, and a lot of that was, was growing up in Asian American enclaves, from Garden Grove to Westminster to Saguaro Valley, little parts of Chinatown here and there.

And, it was a complicated upbringing. I grew up in a converted Christian household. My dad was the first to convert in my family. His encounter with Christianity was during the Korean War. And my grandfather was abducted, never to be seen again by North Koreans. And I left my grandmother with many children to look after, including my father.

And there were missionaries, they’re Christian missionaries that were offering education and food. And that's how my father encountered Christianity and eventually became Christian. My grandma converted as well or became Christian as well. My grandmother raised me. Typical Asian thing. Dad's always working.

And as I look back, and as I've been able to reflect, Yes, she was Christian, but I would say, yes, she was also Buddhist and Confucianist, and Daoist. It was Christian, but it was also kind of multi faith, definitely multicultural. And if we were to fast forward, it's this eventual discovery that major parts of what I struggled with, it was not just me. It was for others like me as well. There's this kind of like identifiable aspect to it. 

So Thich Nhat Hanh talks about how the Enlightenment occurs when the wave realizes this is the ocean. I would primarily identify as, you know, being Asian American and an addict in recovery, right? Like this is the most kind of prominent standout things. 

The main kind of challenge I had growing up was around being different in a variety of ways. And the most prominent difference is that I'm, I'm Korean American. I'm Asian American. And then there's a difference between those two, right? Similarities and differences. Growing up around different races, black, brown, and white, and then struggling to  feel at home.

A sort of out for me was getting jumped into a gang when I was 13. And that provided a sort of sense of home. And it was a way to express what was growing into a certain person. furious anger and in certain instances of violence, it felt like a way to take back power of being perpetually disempowered.

I can reflect on it now with a different understanding. Also being Asian American, it was regardless of how I was living my life, getting kicked out of school, or using drugs at an early age, it was a mandatory thing to study and do well enough. But maybe the divide for myself as an Asian American started to happen around high school.

Comedian Ali Wong talks about the difference between fancy Asians and jungle Asians. The way I would maybe say that played out in my own life was the difference between the honors Asians and then the like regular class Asians. And I definitely wasn't in honor classes. But all the things that I suffered from, it was just kind of growing in intensity and just trying to manage that as best I can. But still on weekends still hanging out with homies it's like one foot in one foot out. 

There's this psychologist, he has this saying he says it's hard to get enough of what almost works and I think the way I was living, it sort of worked. It wasn't yet totally unmanageable. And um, when I was about 19, a really close friend of mine, his name's Michael, we nicknamed him Milk Boy, because he was always a bit smaller than everyone else, so he needed milk to grow. So that was his, that was his like, hood name. His name was Milk Boy. We were from the same gang. 

When we were about 20, we were coming back from a party in Reseda. And he got into a car accident and then was hit by a semi truck as he was trying to cross the freeway and then he died. I still try to visit him as much as I can. But maybe that was the first kind of major moment where something is happening in the Asian American community that was mostly unseen,  not considered, and not talked about, really.  

I, I eventually got clean at the age of 35. And this was as a result of me for the third time trying to commit suicide myself. I mentioned this thing around suicide because that's, to me, something also really indicative and prominent for Asian Americans, Asians and Asian Americans. For myself, the getting clean and then introduction to recovery was in a 12 step fellowship. Nanoom is a residential rehab organization, church, community in Koreatown, Los Angeles. And it houses is about 40 to 50 residents. It's Christian based, and they have regular services.

Elaine

And how long have you been a part of the organization? 

David

I've been part of the Nanoom family for about nine years now.  And before I even came to Recovery, my dad had mentioned it. Like, hey, maybe it'd be good for you to go and check into Nanoom. But at the time, just the idea of this place It was just not something at all I was interested in.

So I'd been to other traditional, you know, American rehabs. And, um, it been, I got clean and it was such a rare thing to see an Asian American. There was, there was a fellow that was like, “Hey, I have a panel. Would you come participate?” And it's here. I ended up being Nanoom. And then as it turns out, my dad was roommates with one of the founding pastors when she was in college back in the late 60s, 70s. So it's just this whole kind of, you know, um, the creator finds a way, you know, to, to make these things happen.  

So we started this Sunday meeting  and it was just two of us and, you know, the number doesn't really matter, but point being is, you know, now there's not a seat empty because we've, we've grown over the years. And then for us as Asian American seeking recovery, yes, this is a Christian faith based organization, but it doesn't mean that it's only for Christians, but I mean, if we were to kind of look at that, right? There's a particular verse that says for “Whosoever does unto the least of my brethren you do unto me.”

And so there's this kind of core message that we're called to serve those that are the least seen, the most marginalized. And I think  as an Asian American, this is a space, not just this Nanoom, not just this meeting. But Burning Pride, it's for those that maybe… 

Elaine

…feel the least seen and the most marginalized.

David

Yeah, yeah. Because what manifests when that, when we experience that, that's when addiction, self harm, or whatever it is manifests. And I remember one of my first meetings, it was a round robin format. So there's maybe about 50 folks in there.  Mostly what we would call newcomers, new to recovery–myself also being a newcomer. And for myself in this, kind of first encounter to this new world and new fellowship, it was in many ways, just an extremely uncomfortable experience. 

So there's about 50 folks, it's in a dark room. Everybody gets about a minute to share whatever's going on. And I'm the only Asian person there. And then I'm also incidentally, seated towards the end. You know, someone could have, like, stripped me naked, and I'd feel just the same amount of uncomfortable in this situation. And so I'm just, I'm sitting there, I'm listening to people share and there are white folk talking about just extremely private things about their addiction and struggles to recover.

And I just was sitting there thinking this is so against everything I was raised and yeah, this was it's just just this idea of openly talking about what I'm going through was It's so extremely foreign, and I just couldn't believe that this is, this is something that I need to participate in. 

But then, eventually, we were able to find each other and get into a sponsorship relationship.  And with that man, it was quite intimate, and he's someone that I still talk to today, and he's a near and dear person in my life, right? 

And I think that's kind of the point of recovery, and that's the point of what I'm now trying to do with Burning Pride is I think as Asian Americans, we're still…like this podcast and this amazing work you're doing Elaine, it's like we're called to sort of pioneer these spaces that we didn't have for ourselves, right? And that's a burden, but that's also an honor to do so. It's so hard to find cultural spaces for Asian Americans in recovery.  So that's the point of what we're trying to do with Burning Pride. 

Elaine

Can you share with folks what Burning Pride is exactly and where you are in the process of developing Burning Pride?

David

Sure. So we're Asian American and BIPOC Buddhist Fellowship. We host regular group meditation and recovery oriented meetings in Chinatown, Los Angeles, similar to how 12 steps function or other recovery fellowships function. A major kind of discovery in my own journey in 12 Steps, as it relates to just kind of being able to practice a Buddhist path to recovery, the principal understanding that these aren't self help processes.

We cannot recover alone. 

Elaine

The communal aspects of recovery. Maybe, um, we haven't touched on this theme yet, but if you could share a little bit where Buddhism fit in for you in this whole journey and what Buddhist principles that you're drawing from for Burning Pride or how it helped you in your own process.

David

There's this podcast, there's this idea that meditation has like to become 10 percent happier. And for myself in my recovery, it was to become maybe 10 percent less miserable, right? Before I became a 12 step member, I kept hearing about mindfulness, this beneficial practice.  And then also there was, there was, um, I think, kind of burgeoning research around what they call mindfulness based relapse prevention.  

I remember thinking, wow, this sounds a lot like Buddhism, right? But then there was so much mentioned about mindfulness, like very rarely, if ever I was like, Oh, they are, this is Buddhism. Right? So it's just like this repackaging of something. But then again, though, the difference– 

Elaine

…minus all the ethics and Asian people and–

David

Exactly. Right now it's been repackaged to fit into to conform into this individualistic self help practice, right? It becomes a shell of what it really is. 

My first encounter with meditation was when I was in martial arts growing up, taking karate or, or whatever it was at the time, and then Qigong, different  encounters with training or traditions. So in my own recovery, when I was, um, you know, I had this, what we call, um, post acute withdrawal.

It was just impossible. My brain felt like it was just Swiss cheese. It was impossible to focus. My whole life was such a struggle just like menial activities were so extremely challenging, right? That's when I began to take meditation as this kind of daily regimented or prescriptive practice and sure enough it worked. It was a doorway to more. 

So with Burning Pride, it's not just myself. It's others. Okay, this is what works for us and we only keep what we have by giving it away. Maybe the mission of the fellowship now is to share what we've been so freely given, as the saying goes. Of course, this can maybe go into the Mahāyāna practice of Bodhisattvayāna, right? This is the way to awakening. 

Elaine

I know that you made this documentary film called Get Jumped In. And I myself am a screenwriter and filmmaker. I love the arts. I loved your documentary. And it was about your friend Chester Chang who died suddenly due to gang violence. And I was wondering if you could share the process of making the film and your intentions for the whole project.

David

First off, thank you for watching. Here's the thing, right? It's like even talking about, about gang banging or gang involvement, it's a bit tricky because we, we went to certain places and did certain things. And was he gang involved? It's um, it's a bit tricky to say. In any case, Chester was murdered and I also knew Chester because we went to college together. 

And maybe the most challenging thing is, was getting gang members that I knew that were Asian to appear on camera and talk about things. So this goes back to even my encounter with our, you know, my initial encounter with 12 steps and being at that meeting. It's like, we tend not to be, you know, talk about what's going on, which is interesting because it's changed so much, especially in today's like, the tendency to just peacock and social media culture now.

So, you know, I have a good amount of experience working in black and brown gang re-entry and recovery spaces. And for Asian Americans, that's really lacking. And there's wonderful efforts today. But back then when I was trying to make this documentary, it was just near impossible. 

And then another challenge was, uh, that I've still encountered to this day with the research I'm doing now is, uh, why Asian American? Why does that, why does that even matter? You know? And then, and I remember I was talking to Chexing Han about this and yeah, she's so cleverly and poignantly points out just even asking that question.  

There are so many things around his murder in my life that remained unprocessed and I was struggling with. And speaking of addiction, you know, I was under the influence for a majority of the making of that film. I did my best, but you know, that's I got into this motorcycle accident during the making of that film.

My grandmother, who I mentioned, she was 97.  And she was the Matriarch. She was the heart of our entire family.  This experience of moving to Southern California. And she was dying. And  my sort of solution at the time, the challenges of getting around Los Angeles was to zip around on a motorcycle, trying to visit my grandmother when she was in the hospital.

In a car it would take maybe an hour and a half. But on a motorcycle I could get there in 30 minutes. I would commute to school like that too. And one day I was riding down La Brea, splitting lanes, and then this, this truck, it's real hard to, when there's traffic, it's real hard to kind of make these unprotected left turns. So he made a left turn and then slammed into me, and then I flew into this like house or yard or street.  

Yeah, so. I, I messed up my shoulder and then it required surgery, but  there's too much going on. And I remember too, so our dear grandmother was, was dying. So I remember I shared none of this about what happened with my, definitely not her, but my whole family. I didn't tell anyone in my family. Yeah. It was just like, just this sick sense of, it should be about her, not me, just like over self effacement and inability to kind of acknowledge, you know,

Elaine

…your own suffering. 

David

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And plus at the time, quote, unquote, pain management was really a thing. Yeah. So getting opiates was just significantly easier than it  is today. So it's a lot cheaper to use heroin. And that's how it became heroin. 

Elaine

Wow. 

David

And then my grandma passed and… 

Social scientist, Tim Kasser talks about in America, this, this, this sort of these, these junk values. Yeah. And then how do we look at these junk values through an Asian American lens, right? So this idea of success, it's like, if we can just get to this, this, if we can become successful, then that's, that everything our parents sacrificed for, it was worth it, right?

Whether getting into a really great school and graduating, getting a great job, making money.  And then for me, it was like, Oh, I need to, make this film and then continue as a filmmaker and…

Elaine

…that was your path to become a fancy Asian.  

David

Yeah, there you go to like yeah break through the doors right like hey, I'm here.

Elaine

Yeah.  Made it. 

David

Yeah, exactly But there's also the struggle it was yeah, it sounds really kind of condemning but it was phrased as these junk values.  Yeah, there's that, right? There is, there are things that need to be talked about as an Asian American and things that we went through. 

That's another thing, right, that we were kind of mentioning earlier. It took a while to kind of hear and understand that there's a difference. Yeah, ethnically, I'm Korean American, but racially, I'm Asian American. And that's the difference there, right?  And then so, working in, or growing up with and working with black and brown folk, Yeah, I'm not Chinese and I'm not Chino. And like having to, over and over, you know, that'd be just like this thing, right? 

Elaine

People would misidentify you. 

David

Just over and over again, right? And then it's like, why does that matter? And then, you know, we can even pull from 12 Steps, right? So, there's also this tradition, and there's a third tradition, where it says, in the context of whatever fellowship we're in, we're just that.

For instance, if it's a fellowship around addiction, there's this tradition that protects, the third tradition that protects and says, when I come to these meetings and these spaces, I'm just an addict seeking recovery. I'm not an Asian addict, or whatever it is, or white addict, or black addict. And what's the purpose of that?

Well, it's to say that, hey, you know, maybe there's an obvious, you know, perceivable difference about me, but please recognize me as someone just like you first. And then from there, we can kind of move forward and get into like deeper waters, right? 

So if I'm seen and why does that, why is that so important? Well, it's like, it's, um, not only are we kind of first seen as different as perhaps a foreigner. And then we're also on top of that misidentified. And then, and then as someone that's Asian American, and, and and as we're kind of trying to, you know, share these stories, it's like for myself and with Burning Pride, it's like, I don't think it's a fair expectation for other races to recognize us as what specific ethnicity we are, right? 

But perhaps we can get to a place. Can, can we just be seen as Asian or Asian American? Can we be recognized? Yeah, we're racially different. And that is significant. Yeah. You know, so…  

Elaine

I guess what I'm hearing from you is, especially in a situation where you're going for a community based on a common goal, recovery, for instance it's a bit jolting to enter that community and be misidentified as something other than what you're there for first. 

David

Exactly. 

Elaine

Because it immediately creates this distancing effect. And it's like, yeah, I can see, you can see me as different, but can we meet as the same first and then we can get into those deeper conversations.

David

Yeah. Yeah So there's this recovery saying when someone new comes into a space. Yeah, this happens not just in 12 step fellowships, but other spaces, you know, the saying is “welcome home.” So it's like, Hey, you know, to someone, Asian Americans, like, “Hey, welcome home by the way. Where are you from?” Right. And like, you're not from, you're not from where I'm from. 

Elaine

So it's like recognizing someone, but then also recognizing that there's no difference to the way that's first welcoming them instead of saying, Hey, you're not Asian. From here. You're not like me. And yeah. 

David

So for instance, um, I can't tell you how many times it was just assumed that I live in Koreatown and it's just, you know, it's just so odd to me.

I've never lived in Koreatown. Right. Not because I'm avoiding it just because I've just lived elsewhere. But, you know, that's, that's, what's been assumed like to this day. There's, you know, folks assume that I, it's just so odd to me. Like, why is that a thing? You know, I don't, if there's someone's like, I think the other kind of identities and 12 steps, like someone's black, Brown or Jewish.

Like, I don't want to assume if someone's Jewish, I don't immediately think they live off of Fairfax, right. Or whatever it is, or if someone's, you know, black or Latin X, like, I don't assume that they're from a specific, as in the Latin accent, I'll just assume they live in East Los, East Los Angeles, right?

But then, again, it's just, it's not so much just the stereotype, but it's like, this lack of understanding. 

Elaine

There was that funny anecdote you shared with me. If you would share about the filming of your documentary and one of  the pieces of advice that one of your professors gave you, I think. 

David

I see. A lot of Asian American studies for myself, it felt like growing up, it felt really like, it didn't feel so socially relevant at the time. What felt socially relevant was in terms of race was learning more and more about the black experience racially, right? 

Elaine

I remember that was the same for me in my undergrad as well. 

David

When I was making Get Jumped In, it's like I had to explain with maybe limited understanding myself why it's important to make a film about not just gangs, but Asian American gangs.

And then yes, where there are Asian American gangs and it's a significant issue. Not all faculty, but there was a number of them that just really just, it was such a strange thing–the film I was trying to make. Yeah. They understood the tragedy of Chester being killed. But around the Asian American identity thing, it was not well understood.  

And so they would try to be helpful. Some of them and what you're mentioning is like trying to find locations when it's a film, right? It used to be visual. So it's like oh, where could we possibly go to to shoot or film right and cinematically portray Asian Americana? So yeah, there was I remember I was in I think it was shooting dailies and there was a professor during that class session and then his suggestion was “There's, up the street, there's a Panda Express.”

So he says, hey, “wouldn't it be great if you go to this, maybe go to the Panda Express and ask them for permission to shoot,” right?  And, uh, yeah, I just,  that was something that I would hear.  

Elaine

I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm chuckling from it. You know, there's a way that humor helps me too. 

David

Of course. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's like so ridiculous.

It's so funny now. Right. But then at the time I was just…

Elaine

…At the time, you're speechless. 

David

I was speechless. Yeah. And hey, I love eating at Panda Express. Yeah. Personally, it's like, that's, that's true Asian American food. Yeah. Uh.  

Elaine

What I really appreciated in the film was you reflected a perspective which I haven't heard much about, which is the suffering of Asian American men specifically. And if you could share what forms of specific suffering that Asian American men face, which I think could be different from Asian American women, for instance. 

David

This is tricky, right? We're going to venture into, we're going to go there. Yeah. Yeah. We kind of talked about this. 

Elaine

We can, we can play around.

David

And yeah. So this is, so my,  uh, my first film, the first thing I ever shot,  and this is like, you know, our first semester in film school. Yeah. It was about, it was about an Asian American man that prowls the streets looking for white male Asian female relationships. Yeah, and then he like, he follows. 

Elaine

I like the premise of this film.

Yeah, and then he follows the Asian, or the white man home. Yeah. And then in the film, and then he murders the Asian man. 

Elaine

The white man. 

David

Yeah, yeah. That was the first film I ever made. And yeah, there's, there's a lot to like maybe unpack there.  And, uh. 

Elaine

How was it received?  

David

Yeah, that's another thing. When I would submit some of these films to like these festivals, it would not get into any of the Asian American festivals. Right. But it would get into, uh film festivals that, you know, are mostly organized by, like, black folk. So, yeah, so that was my first film, and I mean, that's kind of, you know, this was made, I don't know, 2005?

Elaine

Mm hmm, mm hmm. And that phenomena has only exploded even more since then. 

David

Yeah, so I don't, I don't have the specific statistics, but there's a growing popularity subreddit where it's kind of, you know, they point out these issues. Right? But then the point being is for myself, it's like this persistent otherizing and emasculating of Asian American males, right? That's been so unfortunate. 

I remember I, I took this class with professor Todd Boyd and it was on blaxploitation. And this film by Melvin Van Peebles titled Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song. I remember learning about this film and it basically, it's like this revenge story, this black male character, main character, he just goes around the city and just exacts revenge.

And he sleeps with a bunch of white women. It's like him kind of snapping back to like, the subjugation he's experienced as a black male. So I think that my first film was sort of like, kind of like that. 

Elaine

Yeah, you know, an expression of that rage through art. 

David

Yeah, exactly. And then so this film Melvin Van Peebles, he makes this film and I don't know he spent like maybe ten thousand and then made a hundred thousand. Yeah, that like ten times profit is incredible. Like those are incredible margins for film, right? So Hollywood seeing that there's money to be made. Like this became the start of the black exploitation era of film. 

And then also the reason that it made money, there's a legend around, um, the film hit theaters and then Huey Newton, one of the founders of the Black Panther Party, he sits and he watches the film and he leaves and then he comes back and fills the theater with Black Panthers, right? And then it becomes like this mandatory thing that they all have to, they have to watch this. 

Right. And I think I, Asian American, like we're waiting for that moment. And for me, uh, Beef. Or whatever it is, like, it's definitely not it. 

Elaine

I did an interview this morning with, um, Abbas Ratani, who helped found this, uh, platform called Mipsterz, so Muslim hipsters, it's like a, yeah, it's like a digital online platform and it's amazing hearing how much, like, Muslim creatives come together for each other. I couldn't help but feel a little lost cause I was like, I don't think I've ever had that with any community. 

David

I hear you. Yeah. 

Elaine

But that's the sore point I guess for what I was just asking you about too. Like with the, sometimes what is called Asian American, like I understand the way that you're trying to use it to valorize maybe a particular kind of story and identity that hasn't been reflected. 

But in the media and often what is celebrated as Asian American or promoted, I haven't personally felt very included in those spaces or very seen. And so I wonder, what kinds of stories would you hope to reflect more? What kinds of stories would you like to reflect more?

David

So at U. West I'm pursuing this doctorate and we can fortunately put together what's termed a community based project. So the paper that was presented, it's going to be a book. Yeah. And it's going to be our stories. This is not just my own, but again, the way of realizing it's the ocean, right? Yeah. Something's going on here. And you know, it's not just me, others and these stories, they deserve just like any other story to be shared.

Yeah. The first time I'll say presenting this, that paper, was it “The Noble Truths of Addiction,” which will just, yeah. Right.

Elaine

At APPARI. 

David

Yeah. So it was the experience for myself, right.  And it's not necessarily a call out, maybe, maybe in the spirit of a call in. Like, I remember, uh, this is touching upon even what you were saying, right? It's like the average attendance for any other of the presentations. I mean, there was a lot of people there. Yeah. It was about like 30 or so folks per presentation. But then for our part on Buddhism and addiction for myself, Asian American addicts in recovery. Um, there was about like five people and most of them were like involved in the presentation. It was just like the least attended out of all of them, right? 

And look, these, these things aren’t personal, but it's just, it just brought up and reminded me of like, when I was trying to make films about Asian American gangs. It's like, this just, just not really interested, right? 

There was a moment when, uh, Better Luck Tomorrow was made and it kind of broke into mainstream, but in even that maybe it's changed, but there was no direct acknowledgement that this was the murder of Stuart Tay. Then it was also from the perspective of someone that, you know, heard about it or grew up with knowledge about that, but it wasn't in this like first person account, you know, and then, so even growing up, looking for films to watch that kind of spoke to us as, as Asian Americans, myself and my friends, it wasn't Asian American films. It was Asian films that we'd watch, right? 

So for us, it was like a cultural phenomenon for us. This is like during the import scene during the 90s. We all knew quite intimately the Young and Dangerous film series that came out of Hong Kong. It's about a bunch of Asian gangs, gangsters, young Asian gangsters. We'd all watched it over and over again. And, you know, for me, it wasn't much in terms of like Asian American content. 

And so even today, it's like, It's like the pervasiveness of this whole model minority thing. It's like, not just how we're viewed, but then also, you know, speak on my own experience as well, how we view ourselves. It's like still trying to be this good Asian, so to speak. Or, you know, you mentioned the fancy Asian, but I'll call it like this honor roll Asian, whatever it is, right?  

Elaine

And then, uh, and the forms of suffering depicted are the honor roll Asian forms of suffering. 

David

So I think maybe the, the primary barrier, if I could speak as somebody that's kind of also trying to tell these stories is that one significant barrier is that Asian Americans of the other prominent racial groups our suffering is that we don't recognize that we're suffering. That seems to be a big challenge. So these stories that You know, with the film, or even with the research I'm doing now, it’s just to say, hey, you know, we're, we're here too, and we'd like to take part.  

Elaine

How does the theme of home, or not having a home, fit into the book that you're writing? Or in the stories that you're reflecting? Are you seeing that come up in people's experiences, or whatever you're recording?

David

Yeah. So I would, you know, just like we're on one of our initial conversations, you were maybe saying that it seemed like I have real deep roots and  in LA, Los Angeles. But, you know, I would say another marker of this Asian American experience is that like nowhere really felt like home, you know, so a real dear friend whose entire life has been dedicated to working with young gang members and primarily in the Latinx community. His ties to Boyle Heights–it's so  special to, to witness and, you know, to be with him or just, you know, a lot of us kind of jokingly, but truthfully, we, we, we call him the unofficial, he's like the mayor of Boyle Heights and that's such a special thing. 

But you know, for myself, where's home? Like nothing, none of the neighborhoods I grew up in,  it's like, uh, have I really ever been back to? 

Elaine

Yeah. It was the same for me. Yeah. 

David

And so many of my close friends as well. Maybe the closest thing that I've seen amongst my friends groups is San Gabriel Valley as this like, home, or this hood, right, that they identify with.  But then this is also something we were talking about where um, maybe the closest thing was, was uh, returning to Hawaii, which just felt like this kind of, the only place in the entire world where it's, it's English speaking as the language. And then it's also a majority Asian American or mixed. 

It's not just the felt experience, but how we were perceived as this whole, this, this perpetual foreigner experience. And then, so even in the, a lot of the Asian American spaces, it's like, it's the ones that could effectively kind of deny their own real like, you know, Asian American-ness are the ones that seem to do quite well. And then therefore, that's the status quo of Asian Americana. And then it's like, yeah, it just, I could just say, it just, it doesn't represent me. Yeah. You know, 

Elaine

Do you feel that Buddhism has helped you find a home in any way?

David

Yeah, so with Burning Pride and hopefully what we're trying to build, it's not just in Buddhism, but it's just recovery spaces as well, like meeting these recovery spaces that, okay. For instance, it's, uh, invariably if we're in this mixed, mixed race, usually what mixed race meeting or space looks like, it's just maybe one or two Asians and the rest, you know, there's other like prominent majority, right?

So in these other meetings. If in the sharing portion, if there's like even a pause in the speaking,  that uncomfortable silence, it's like it needs to immediately be broken, right? And usually it's someone that's white that's like, “Oh, Hey, you know, no one's talking. So I'm going to, I'll go first, right?” But then like, when we have our Asian American meetings, it's like, we're much more comfortable with that silence and we'll just wait. We'll just wait. And eventually someone will speak, but there's these longer pauses that seem more culturally appropriate. Yeah, it's just how our meetings go. That's another example I mean, that's something specific maybe culturally that we need in order to feel comfortable and be willing to participate. 

So a specific maybe recovery practice in 12 step recovery is get phone numbers and use them to meet other addicts in recovery get their phone numbers and give them a call. And then for Asian Americans, it's like I have dear friends that I'll receive chapter length emails, but to like, hey, uh, just to get a random phone call, it's like impossible to do so.

And I have so many friends where they're just so uncomfortable just like talking on the phone, that it's become like memefied. This whole really discomfort with just one-on-one connection communication, right? I get it. Like I had that thing too. So again, like the specific effort of what we're trying to do is: we do this because our lives depend on it.

It's not something that it's like this self-help practice that I'm going to try on New Year's Day as this resolution, right? It's like, no, we need to do these things because our lives depend on it. And then maybe we're kind of, you know, more willing to step into the discomfort of it all. 

Elaine

I guess what I hear from you, thinking back to what you were saying, these culturally specific places or practices, is it helped to have a space dedicated for Asian Americans. 

Because it allows, for instance, even in speaking, right, a shared understanding that there isn't the presumption that people jump in or more comfort with silence, probably that comes from, you know, the home life or being with your parents or, you know, just having silences in other spaces and it becomes a habit just like in with other people, they learn from their communities or families where they always have to fill the space, right?

But then there could be probably an uneven, I don't know, like if I would call it a power differential or just, it could come to inhibit someone else's participation in a space if those who end up being the most vocal or, you know, they take up all that space. 

David

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, so exactly. So myself and others, you know, so I'm also fortunate enough to, to mentor other Asian Americans seeking recovery. When we go to these spaces, we'll be accused of, why are you so quiet? Right? Like that, that comes up again and again. And it's not just in recovery spaces. It'll just, just the experience of growing up Asian American, right? And it's, it's not necessarily that we're quiet. We're just maybe different. And that difference,  I think, you know, it should be better understood.

Elaine

Yeah. So it's interesting what you're doing, because I feel like for myself, I've tried to purposely be more vocal because I don't see many people like myself vocal. And then I, it's almost like I get more frustrated because then I wish more people who are similar to me or look like would be more vocal, but then there's no, so I'm always trying to play at, or maybe it's because of the space I'm in or, you know, whatever it is in academia or other spaces where I'm like, I feel this, I need to push myself to say, or be present, otherwise I disappear, right? Yeah. But then it's a very lonely endeavor because it's taxing. Also, if you're more introverted like me, it's taxing, but then there aren't others like you to back you up ever. 

David

So, and I think that's, that's another part of the experience is just, just, just living with and experiencing that loneliness. Yeah. And that's also, you know, like I would kind of frame in that lack of home, like not having this home. I remember the, first time, you know, I think it was like my first break up  in high school. I remember trying to talk to my mom, which is an understandable thing, like you want to talk to your mom.

And I remember her just saying, oh, just, just do good in school and not that I was blaming her, but it was just, it's like hurt on top of hurt, right? So we have these experiences and it's like, am I tripping? Is it just me? Or is it, there's something going on?  I think maybe that's kind of what you're getting at. 

Elaine

I was wondering if you could also share upcoming projects, aspirations, anything you would like to address that hasn't been addressed or that you hope our broader community of listeners might address in their conversations afterwards?

David

Yeah. I think, I believe it's Joseph Campbell. He has that quote. It's that “The great privilege of a lifetime is to become who you really are.” I think this touches on, you were saying how you try to be more vocal because there is that stereotype or there's that cultural tendency. And I get that. Like I kind of experienced that myself, but at the same time, it's like, is that who I, and I'm just answering for myself, right? It's like, is that really who I am? 

And I've worked for a number of organizations where that is part of the culture and in social media as well, it seems to be the case, right? The sort of like peacocking as they call it. And that's just, that's just not me because of these various cultural cinemacan traits.

It's, it's, uh, you know, the main thing of course that we're hoping to do for Burning Pride to open its meetings to. Any Asian American that made it need a fellowship, right, of understanding and covering folks. So that's really it. And then also for my, myself and my own practice, there's traditionally maybe heritage Asian Buddhist spaces here in Los Angeles or in the United States.

And then there's a lot of white Buddhist spaces and there's some BIPOC communities. And I know there's others making that effort, but it's like, hey, we need a home as well, a place where we can kind of be understood and understand. 

And then, you know, I've been in spaces like in the Soto Zen tradition  where, uh, it's like a sea of white people, right? And I'm the only Asian American. It's just a really uncomfortable experience, yeah? And not that they're intentionally doing anything, but it's just clear that this is not for me, right? I wouldn't be in this kind of space in the other, any other area of my life.

And then I've been in, you know, plenty heritage spaces where you know, I have a number of tattoos and I look a certain way so I don't really fit that either. It's like this, it's like, where can we just go and just be ourselves? And that's good enough. That sums up the experience in Buddhism. In our practice of Buddhism. It's like this inherent Buddha nature. And then as it relates to Asian American, it doesn't matter what we've been able to achieve, at the very core of who we are, we've always been good enough and we don't need all these other extras, right? And I think that's maybe the real kind of  revelation that we seek.  

And that's the struggle. It's like, right? It's not just, I'm sure it's not just myself, you know, my, my folks saying, “Hey, we sacrifice so much. So make our name proud and do X, Y, and Z.” Right? “And then things will be okay.” And I've been in therapy a number of years and a traditional Western, you know, um, therapists might say, Oh, that's codependency. But I call that just growing up Asian American. Right. It's not codependency. Like wanting these parents, like wanting so much for their kids, right. It's something else. Right.  

And, um, so yeah, maybe our work isn't to see it to its completion, it's just to do our part as best we can. So yeah, and that kind of circles back, it's like, Buddhism for me, it's just, yeah, I mean, meditation has been a really important practice. I really appreciate all the attention, that mindfulness has gotten. And then for myself, it's in being in recovery.

But there's so much more that speaks to me as well, right? And I don't foresee that I'll ever be, uh, someone that's chanting The Lotus Sutra, but hearing the Heart Sutra in not just English, but in Korean, in Mandarin, or in Chinese, in Japanese–it's really special to be able to hear that, you know, and experience that. Because at the heart of it, it's this journey of being not just Buddhist, but Asian American Buddhist.  

Elaine

Thank you very much. For sharing your story and your time  with us today. Thank you kindly. Happy Lunar New Year, everyone!