Stuff They Don't Want You To Know

The Secret World of Chefs with Richard Blais and Hugh Acheson

File name: iHeartRadio – The Secret World of Chiefs with Richard Blais and Hugh Acheson

File Details: 1:05:00

Number of speakers: 5

Beginning of Transcript

From UFO’s to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don’t want you to know. A production of iHeart radio.

Matt: Welcome back to the show, my name is Matt

Knoll: My name is Knoll.

Ben: They call me Ben. We’re joined as always with our super producer, Paul mission control deck and most importantly you are you, you are here and that makes this Stuff They Don’t Want You to Know. This is a very special episode for us, it’s one we’ve been excited about for a while now. Today we are diving into the culinary world. And as anyone who has ever worked as a chief or as a cook in front of house or more can easily attest, there is an entirely different universe behind the kitchen doors. It’s a world and a reality that most diners and most restaurant patrons never really see. And it should go without saying but we’ll say it, the people in this world are some of the hardest working, most driven individuals on the planet. Today we’re getting a first-hand exploration of this world with help from two luminaries of the culinary universe, Hugh Acheson and Richard Blais. Thank you so much for coming on the show today guys.

Hugh: Thanks for having us.

Richard: What is up.

Matt: It’s really nice to connect with you guys in this video conference the way we’re making this recording happen right now. You both have fabulous looking homes.

Richard: Oh, thank you yeah. I really just have this stove and this cabinet behind me. The rest of the house is in shambles, but this is where I do all of my work now.

Knoll: Well what else do you need, and these are troubled times. And let me say, you also both have fabulous voices and I want to make sure that in this, our first like what is this a six-way-skype-call-bunker recording situation. I want to make sure that everyone knows who’s who so if you could each introduce yourselves just so our listeners can track who’s talking that would be amazing. Richard do you want to go first?

Richard: Hey everyone, this is Richard Blais and no one has ever said that my voice sounds amazing and coming from you that is high praise.

Matt: Alright, Hugh?

Hugh: I’m Hugh Acheson.

Matt: Yess…

Hugh: That’s it.

Matt: He’s just some guy named Hugh Acheson.

Knoll: The gravitas of that of that name and that voice alone you need not say anymore honestly. We’re all really, really happy to have you both and thank you so much for uh - I think this is our first ever two guests situation on Stuff They Don’t Want You to Know, isn’t that right guys?

Ben: Yeah, this is new for us too, but you know we’re in a time of new things and innovations. One thing we wanted to kick off today’s conversation with is the concept of celebrity, right. You know, many of us in the audience, we know you from your work in television. And sometimes there may be people listening today who are – you know I like the way you put it earlier Matt, who are even more familiar with your television work than they are with maybe the day to day food that you’re creating. How has your notoriety affected your work as chiefs? Has it helped? Has it hindered? Has it ever gotten weird?

Richard: Yeah! I’ll jump in I guess, Richard Blais here. I mean one, has it gotten weird. To be honest guys we’re on a six-way Skype on a podcast right now so yeah things can get weird when you’re a celebrity chief. I think it goes both ways right like the exposure certainly creates great opportunity, it certainly helps putting people in restaurants. At the same time it creates a tremendous amount of responsibility that you can’t live up to all the time to everyone. So, I think it’s a blessing, not much of a curse but certainly there’s ups and down’s to it.

Hugh: Yeah, I mean celebrity is such a strange – I don’t think any of us want to call ourselves celebrities, I’m just a guy who cooks. You know TV has occupied about two percent of my working life, probably even less. So, you know like writing a book, it just gives you a bigger footprint to get to clients and find customers and have a following. So, it definitely helps in a business angle but it kind of – the term kind of makes me cringe.

Matt: That’s – that’s understandable.

Knoll: It’s funny Hugh, I actually knew about you outside any of your TV work because I lived in Athens, Georgia for many years and knew about your wonderful restaurant ‘Five and Ten’ and had many friends that worked for you and so I knew of you more from your grass roots kind of work. And you really are known as being super hands-on in not only cooking and designing menus and creating restaurant concepts but also in culinary instruction. I actually have seen you do a talk at the local farmer’s market in front of like twenty people, it’s a very grass roots thing that you do. And I always really appreciate that about you and you’re all about the DIY kind of ethics of being a chief and all of these design principles, so I just wanted to put that out there. I’m a big fan and I’ve know you since you were kind of doing that stuff in Athens and I’ve always kind of followed you from that part of my life.

Hugh: Been a long time.

Richard: And you don’t want to say it but he’s obviously a celebrity chief because I can’t book the Farmer’s Market, like they’re not coming for me.

Matt: Well, this is something I want to get to, you guys. My first job I ever had was at a private club in Atlanta called the ‘Pimo Driving Club’ and it was working in a kitchen there and I really thought this is what I wanted to do. And I know there’re a lot of people out there listening who have aspirations of becoming a chief or getting into the industry in some way more-so than you know just serving drinks or food. What were the pathways you guys took to achieve that and is there any advice you can give to someone who’s looking to kind of follow in your ways?

Hugh: I mean, I would definitely advise against going into this business right now but – there’s no jobs. And there won’t be any jobs and it’s going to be a lot worse. But I got into this business because I’m the black sheep of a very academic family and at fifteen I started working at restaurants and it was the place where I felt at ease and where I could succeed and it wasn’t at school and I went to University for a while but dropped out but all through that time I’d just been cooking and you know I’d show up when I was sixteen years old working at a French restaurant and have forty year old chefs be happy that I was there working side by side with them. So it gave me a sense of inclusion and success and you know, I realized that my strange sarcastic personality and things like that somehow also allowed me to be a good leader and then mix that with empathy and honing in on technique over the years and just reading. You know, it’s also a business that is – it’s this endless fascination for me. Because I can learn about food and beverage and hospitality and design every day of my life and never get tired of it. There’s so much to learn about food. And so, when you find an occupation that really jazzes you like that every day, it’s exciting. And right now you know, we’ve all changed jobs in the last month and a half – two months. So, that’s exciting too, even in a crisis situation. Which it’s amazing to me the similarities between running a restaurant which is very crisis and triage oriented anyhow and then true crisis response. Because there’s a lot of affinities that chefs can bring to the table in that regard, to fix problems quickly.

Knoll: I think that’ a really, really good point and I’ve seen so many restaurants here in Atlanta have to pivot very quickly to this whole very carefully thought out ‘to-go’ model. Even fine dining restaurants, there’s a brand new restaurant right around the corner for me called ‘Little Bear’ that just opened right before all this stuff hit and they have exclusively pivoted to curbside delivery and they do a new menu every week and you know you can call in and make your order that morning and you can pick it up that night and it’s like seventy five bucks but it’s like a spread for your whole family and it’s something very special and it’s been really cool to see them succeed and obviously they’re doing it with more of a skeleton crew than they would have as a full service restaurant they were booked out months in advance, it’s a really popular spot but that kind of innovation is really inherent in the scrappiness of being a chef I mean they call them like brigades right like in the French tradition because it’s like you’re at war in a certain way and you have a leader and you have people you have to delegate to and the whole situation is very regimented in that way. Richard, can you speak to that a little bit. Some of your experience as to that kind of you know that can do attitude that really leads people in the culinary world to be able to make snap decisions and really kind of come through in times of stress.

Richard: Yeah, I’m going to borrow what Hugh said there for the future because I mean being – you know every night of a service of a restaurant there’s some sort of drama or a problem that has to be served I mean almost every other guest or other table has some sort of pivoting moment or situation that has to be fixed or solved. And I think again that the hospitality industry is sort of built for this and using the word hospitality there like the old sort of adage that the customer is always right has you know – really is the backbone of being able to consistently have to pivot every seemingly couple minutes. To make sure that everyone is happy, so I think that that’s ingrained in all of us. And I think that’s the other side for me, if I look at my personal story you know why did I fall in love with cooking an being a chef? It was because it was one place where I could make someone happy right away, I could see it on their face, I could see it in their smile and I got that personal gratification out of it and quite honestly now we have the ability to turn those tables in a way and make people truly happy in moments when they really, really need it you know like some curbside pickup or whatever it is.

Ben: You know, that’s well said and I think we’re hitting on an issue that’s very close to everybody’s mind right now you know, as we’re readjusting, as we’re adapting and improvising. One thing that you both hit on that really pricks my ears up is you both noted like one hundred percent, something always happens right? Every service, there’s always going to be something and that’s kind of a point that we opened with when we said, somebody might go into a restaurant and they might sit down and to them it seems like this is super easy, this is like a lazy tube ride down a delicious river you know what I mean, and have no idea of what’s going on behind the kitchen doors. So, with this in mind, are there things that you guys, as chefs and as professionals wish the average restaurant patron was more aware of? Like what kind of – for lack of a better word, what kind of kitchen secrets do you wish that more diners knew.

Richard: Well I want to let you answer this but I want to just follow up and thank you for the inspiration because definitely the Willy Wonka Chocolate River Tube Ride will now be created, at some point in one of my restaurants.

Matt: Ohh, that – that seems terrifying to me. Are you going to have the soundtrack?

Richard: We have to.

Matt: Oh God.

Richard: I’d say pure imagination is the song, but I don’t want you guys to have to pay for it.

Hugh: Yeah I mean, there’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes, I think its uhh - I think the number of people that it takes to really ensure good hospitality and full service is much more than people think. Behind the scenes it’s usually more people than people think and the amount of work that goes into it is more. People always have an assumption that restauranteurs and successful chefs are rolling in it and we’re not. It’s a very, very low margin business and has only gotten lower and you know it’s a challenging business but it’s one that people do it because they love it, but it drives some people to bankruptcy and things like that so, it’s never easy in that way. I mean outside of that I think that people generally understand. What people really do need to understand though about restaurants is their satisfaction with the restaurant, past a certain point is really all in the consumer. So if you’re a customer and you go into a restaurant and you’re in a crappy mood and you’re with your mother-in-law and a four-year old, the chances of me making you abundantly happy in a relatively fine dining restaurant are difficult, you’re stacking the odds against me. So, it’s not my job – I mean I can do my job well but the customer’s always got a part too. You know Richard brough up ‘the customer’s always right’ and I actually – I don’t really ascribe to that anymore. The customer is always right when they treat us with respect and we counter with professionalism and empathy and understanding and we provide good product and we do a good job and it’s efficient and timely. Apart from that, if a customer has a complain about that that’s you know ‘MMMM’ – you know. So I guess I’m just saying it’s, the customer has got some responsibility in this relationship too.

Richard: Sure, the customer is always right and so they’re clearly absolutely wrong.

Hugh: Right, yeah.

Matt: Hey guys, we’re going to pause for just a moment here and check out a word from our sponsor but we’ll be right back.

Matt: And we’re back, let’s keep talking with Hugh Acheson and Richard Blais.

Matt: Alright, I want to jump to something that all of us have been dealing with our whole lives as soon as you hit I guess what you would consider the adulthood marker where you could go out to a grocery store and gather all of the things that you or your family needs, to you know survive for a certain amount of time. You guys as chefs and restauranteurs, I’m assuming have spent a lot of time at grocery stores. I know for sure, Richard you’ve been at Whole Foods a whole lot just from the Top Chef episodes. But there’s you know – when we as an individual are going into a place to buy/procured food that we are going to cook the way you guys would in a restaurant; what do we need to know about where we go, what strategies we use to like do the best for ourselves for our nutrition, for our economics – like how do you make those decisions and what should we do?

Richard: Well I think a lot of those decisions – it’s kind of a tricky question because I think a lot of decisions that a chef will make is dependent on the skill and the training that they have. So, I’ll just throw one out there right away like you know not buying the most expensive cut of meat or the most expensive fish because the market has created or inflated that price and you know a braised stew with a piece of meat and some oxtails and some bone-marrow is probably going to be more delicious and probably the type of food you’re going to get at a restaurant like ours anyway. So one would be, it’s dependent on the skill of the cook so kind of tricky.

Ben: So, you might say a little bit don’t buy into the hype necessarily of even a place like Whole Foods, where all of those super pricy cuts of meat are available. And maybe there’s a little bit of marketing behind this notion that oh we can be just like pro chefs by buying this really expensive stuff. And really what’s most important is maybe educating yourself and upping your basic skillset in the kitchen rather than gleaning on buying expensive ingredients right.

Richard*: Yeah. And I would say, well first of all you know – the hype has sustained my career so let’s be careful what we say but I will say that one of the things that has been fun, and I use that word very carefully during this quarantine has been cooking at home. And, I hate to use the Top Chef word but doing the Quick Fire Challenge where you know – I found a package of sencha behind my dog food bin the other day I didn’t even know sencha still made instant coffee and a can of tuna and some white beans and a piece of celery that clearly should be in the compost bin and can I make a dish out of that, can I make it delicious? It’s kind of been fun in that sort of way, having to use all of the ingredients in your house or freezer or cupboard and that’s what good chefs and great chefs like you do anyway.

Hugh: What did you do with the sencha??

Richard: I know that because that’s a coffee connoisseur. My wife made the Dalgona, the two-ingredient coffee and it kind of went viral. She’s got a hundred thousand views on this two-ingredient coffee. It was kind of fun.

Ben: I just want to say here. Hugh, don’t think I missed this because we’re on a video call; you’ve got a diagram that you’re working on.

Hugh: Oh yeah, I’m the only moron who brings a visual aid to a podcast. But when you enter into a grocery store, grocery stores are very scientifically and economically studied as to what the layout is. You’re going to go in and walk past floral. It’s the first thing they want you to see, it’s pretty whatever and they you go into produce. But the trick is you want to stay in the exterior walls pretty much as you go around a grocery store. The inner isles are where the crap is. So if you could stay away from that except for the little scouting, sapper missions in to go get your olive oil and whatever and your flour then you’re going to avoid a lot of - really what is prepackaged and ingredients that you never should understand or probably shouldn’t be ingesting a ton of. So, stick to the exterior. But also, I think that cooking these days – and what I really want to impart to people often is; recipes are great, I love following a really good recipe start to finish but what you really need to do to cook well is envision a Lego set and you want twenty pieces, each piece is a technique and a skill in cooking. Then you can just assemble them in totally different ways each time. So, then you’re not held hostage to the snapper recipe where you can’t find snapper, the snapper is thirty two dollars a pound for fillet at Whole Foods and you can adjust to that and use something else. Because really the technique you need to know in that case is, “How do I properly sear fish”. And so, we just need to teach America those basics again so they can all have their Lego set. Richard and I just have a lot more Lego pieces than most people do. And we can cobble them together in different ways and we look upon things in a very different way sometimes in food. And that’s the exciting part about food. But buying from scratch is kind of key, I mean to me the fact that it’s very heartwarming to see the dried bean shelf totally fu****g empty because I’m like, “Wow! America actually knows how to cook beans.”. So, I was talking to Jose Andres the other day and he was like, “You know in a crisis, I go down to Italy, I give the woman a ten pound bag of lentils and I hammock and she makes food.” And he was like, “Here they don’t do that.”. And he’s got a point, but I think we’re beating that a little bit right now. So, it’s kind of exciting to see that and you know I still want people to come to restaurants, it’s kind of how Richard and I pay our mortgages but you know it’s good that people are learning how to cook from scratch again.

Richard: Yeah, one of the amazing things has been (to just build on that) is the absence of flour in every single market like even in my household – I’m gluten free until quarantine. And then all rules are gone and we’re baking homemade sourdough, there’s no flour, there’s no yeast in the stores and everyone’s is you know home baking sour – what I mean, people are not gluten free anymore. I know that some people are of course, but California isn’t.

Hugh: I mean, some people really do have allergies but ninety percent of the people who claim to have allergies no longer have allergies.

Richard: Exactly.

Matt: That’s an episode of it’s own. So, really quickly can you tell us how you start with sourdough. I know it requires a mother, how do you actually get your hands on a mother and start like the sourdough making process?

Richard: I mean, there’s a couple of recipes. At it’s essence its flour and water, correct Hugh?

Hugh: Yep, basically it’s grabbing wild yeasts out of the air so mother is more a kinship with vinegar and acetabulum bacillus and or ascorbates, this would be referred to as a starter so once the starter is activated and it’s grabbed yeast from the air, it’s going to grow and expand and at that point it needs to be fed so it’s feeding off of the flour and small additions that you’re adding to it every day.

Matt: So if you can’t get your hands on some flour you can probably make some sourdough?

Hugh: Yeah, yeast is running through the air everywhere, as we talk. Some people are yeastier than others – you can smell it on them.

Ben: That’s going to be my out of context quote for this episode.

Hugh: When they say Jesus has risen, they – he’s actually just really yeasty.

Ben: I do have a question to follow up with this. I love that we hit on home-cooking because there is a bit of uh – well there’s definitely a resurgence but dare I say it’s getting close to like a renaissance and there are a lot of people who would ordinarily describe themselves as incapable of boiling water who have now gone into their storage or wherever they kept all the kitchen stuff they got for their wedding decades ago, and they’re breaking it out and getting those cookbooks they always told themselves they were going to read and they’re actually working on this stuff. To me that seems pretty inspiring, there’s a lot of MacGyver inventiveness to it as well. But I was wondering, what are some of the things – like when you guys as professionals are seeing people try their hand at cooking at home what are some of the things you think they need to know? Like I’m picturing you guys having a camera in someone’s kitchen and being like, “Oh my God, dude what’re you doing?!”. Are there any things like that in generally you think could help people cooking at home?

Richard: I guess I could just start rattling off a few, I mean I just did a video making hash browns at home and it’s just potatoes and salt and some oil and a hot, hot pan. And there’s no trick to it, it wasn’t a fancy recipe like Hugh was saying it’s more of a technique it’s not a recipe. And people were trying it at home and you know DM’ing me about that the pan wasn’t working and really it’s not the pan, it’s not the wand it’s the magician. It is just something like letting the pot, letting the pan, letting the oil get hot enough so that whatever you cook in it doesn’t stick to the pan. It’s just the type of thing that when you’re at home smoking and you’re about to set off your fire alarm that people freak out a little bit whereas when you have the experience of cooking professionally you know the smoking point of a certain oil and that the pan is going to be okay. So, it’s little things like that where it’s more again everyone thinks they need the tool especially for me being sort of know as a gadget guy. Guess what I haven’t done in the last thirty days, I haven’t cooked sous vide, I haven’t used any liquid nitrogen – yet, and if I do it’ll be for the zombies, it won’t be an ingredient in a recipe. It’ll be to disintegrate all the zombies. So, I think some of it is just experience but now people are getting that experience. And I’ll send it over to you – Hugh?

Hugh: Yeah, I mean I think that people are – America is really intrigued with food right now. They’re trying, I call it ‘It’s the rise of the Allison-Roman Empire’ and I think that it’s good, but Americans are still morons when it comes to food. I remember when I published my first book I did like a pear upside down cake and so it calls for like four eggs in the batter and I remember having someone hand-write me a postcard saying, “It was good, but the eggshells were a little weird to get around.”. I was like, “Whatt?”

Matt: This is why it’s so important to have magicians like you guys amongst us who can provide what you guys do –

Hugh: I don’t think that’s a magician, that’s a logician…

Matt: But I guess what I mean is, I think no matter how difficult our situation that you guys are going through, that the restaurant industry is going through and the hospitality industry in general is going through. I don’t think we’re ever going to lose that need for people with your skills. I was listening to an episode of ‘The Passenger’ Hugh, where you were talking with Chris Wilkins of Root Baking Company, you were in Atlanta. And my goodness dude, I mean the reality of our situation that you laid out with him was heart wrenching just from somebody who loves food and has enough means to every once in a while eat at a restaurant of the caliber that you guys create. I guess what I’m trying to understand is, do you think there’s a version of this the way it plays out that innovation plays a huge role for people like you to still be able to get food to consumers and make a living in just maybe a different way?

Hugh: Yeah, I mean there is but I worry that that is so – shallow and basic and it loses some core aspects of what I think is most important about true restaurants which is hospitality. But we saw this coming before this I mean Richard can attest to this too I mean there are flaws in the logic of fine dining and what we do every day is – and we see it on the bottom line. And you know when we see the Sweet Greenification of America it’s kind of terrifying to a lot of us as chefs as to, is that really where we’re moving towards? Because I don’t want to go there.

Knoll: Just really quickly, in case anyone doesn’t know what you’re talking about – sweet green kind of like a Chipotle health food kind of chain, that’s like in California. Is that what you’re referring to?

Hugh: Yeah, they started in Philladelphia and they’ve gone everywhere now. And I’m not dissing them, I think they provide a good service and it’s a good product in the end; it’s just that what it lacks for me is service. It lacks the idea of a chef coming up with an inspired dish and nailing it and you know really impressing that way. So, we can come up with a lot of different ways to do really great. To-go food and stuff like that is giving people options of restaurant caliber meals to have in their home, I just don’t want that to be everything we do anymore. But I’m also terrified that American consumers are not going to want to come and gather around a bar.

Richard: Yeah I mean the big issue is that, one – restaurants and food, everyone’s a consumer of food so that’s the beauty of the business. And what we’re finding right now is the ultimate issue is that it’s one business that can’t go one hundred percent digital right, it can’t go one hundred percent online you physically need to have something in front of you, you need to put it in your body so I think that that’s the massive challenge but what Hugh was saying already is like this was already happening, third party delivery services for some of my places were you know thirty to forty percent of specific location’s business already so in one way, we’ve seen this coming you know, third party delivery, pick up to go, fast casual food. nd quite honestly through the last you know horrendous moments after 9/11, people had to adapt. Fine dinning took a massive hit, 2008 I think that’s when the single subject restaurant was sort of born after that; so I think this going to create something. I’m kind of excited although it’s going to be a challenge, I agree with you. As I’m kind of excited for at least the challenge of you know can you create some sort of restaurant experience perhaps at home. And it’s never going to be the same but the challenge itself, I find somewhat inspiring.

Hugh: It just kind of dawned on me, some of those meal prep services like Blue Apron which you know I think is an interesting idea it’s like –

Ben: Oh, hey watch out, watch out; they’re a sponsor.

Knoll: To the point of what I was saying earlier about not buying into the hype and don’t want to put any of you guys’ livelihood at risk it’s so hilarious that Blue Apron and all those meal prep services sponsor literally every podcast.

Hugh: Oh, I know, I know. But I guess-

Ben: No, no – let it fire; I want to know where you’re coming from.

Hugh: I think Blue Apron and groups like that were becoming untenable before this. Now they’re the happiest companies in the pandemic economy other than 3M* and Zoom, so it’s interesting to see how long that’s going to last…I don’t know. I mean, what is – this is going to completely change our industry. I mean I’ll come back, we’ll be okay. I’m not worried about reopening, I’m worried about six months after reopening when the landlord is still trying to lean on me because he wants do a slight uptake on rent and I’m like dude we’re doing sixty percent of what did last year, you can’t raise the rent on me because there’s nobody who’s going to open up a restaurant here. So you know, I think we are empowered right now because – what I used to hate when bosses would ever say this to me is becoming true which is – landlords need me right now; they need me. So they have to make me happier, that’s really important. But it used to be like bad bosses would always say, “There’s ten other people behind you for the job.”. It’s like, well that’s actually going to be true right now.

Knoll: No, that’s really true. I actually heard an interview on NPR today about a property owner, commercial real estate owner who’s tenants who were business owners are not able to pay rent right now and he’s like, “Okay, that’s how it’s going to be I get it, I support you; I’m not going to collect rent this month.”. But then he in turn went to his bank and the bank isn’t giving him a break, you know the bank isn’t passing on that to – I-I’m not – it’s, everyone’s getting hit but it’s fascinating to see how this is going to play out because eventually the banks are going to have to play nice, it’s just inevitable like what’s the alternative? I don’t understand a future where the banks hardline everybody and close everything down you know I just don’t see that world. Maybe I’m being naïve, I’m interested; as business owners what you guys think about how that aspect plays out.

Hugh: Well I mean, that aspect’s really interesting. I’m glad you’re speaking as a lobbyist for developers and landlords of the worlds. You have to realize that like our bottom line on profitability is a lot lower than landlords and developers. So, I just think that this needs to be a give and take; we filled their coffers, we filled their buildings with aspiring businesses that employed people and do well. You know, they need us now more than ever. And I think that they have to pony up and be willing. I’m going to lose some skin in this, I want to see them loose some skin.

Knoll: And I hope I didn’t misrepresent, that’s really what my point was. Is that eventually even the banks are going to have to lose some skin, everyone’s going to have to kind of get onboard with this chain of events you know. The banks can’t hardline everybody, the property owners can’t hardline everybody, eventually everybody in this chain has to kind of like okay, we’re in this together, how can we kind of prop each other up and help each other out.

Matt: I think the one really good thing we’ve talked about before on an episode here – the really good thing that we have here I think for humanity as a whole is that we do have a – in this scenario a common enemy that happens to be a microbe. Or you know a – a thing that is smaller than you would be able to see with a microscope and it’s affecting all of us. And it does feel like the only way out of all of this is a tremendous amount of empathy which I think we – you know as a world, as a species we could certainly use a ton more of. And this is actually a way to hopefully foster more of that and if we can achieve that we won’t have a major problem with the banks because they’re compounding interest anyway so, we’ll be okay.

Hugh: Thank you for that Kumbaya moment, I – I – yeah, we do have a common enemy in this, in COVID. And we have a common enemy, at least fifty four percent of us and the lackluster president of the United States but I don’t know. I mean, I want to see empathy, I want to see compassion, I want to see patience in people; I don’t always see it. I’ve seen some people angry driving around and stuff like that and I just want to be like, “– the **** out!”.

Matt: Right now they’re driving around angry?

Hugh: Yeah, yeah.

Knoll: They should be home, what are they doing, what are they doing!? Get inside, idiots!

Hugh: I know. Well, I’ve been driving around a lot because I’m doing meals for World Central Kitchen everyday so I borrowed a van and drive around to needy organizations in Athens, so I see a lot of stuff going around.

Ben: That’s something that’s key and I’m really glad we’re getting around to this part of the conversation because one thing that we’ve seen here in the US and abroad has been not just like a repurposing from a business perspective in the way we were talking about earlier but a repurposing for community support. Now, to a degree the stereotype about the American South is very true. Horrible things will happen here but you’re not going to go hungry because everybody is always going to be like trying to help you like throw food at you wherever you go. And what astounded me recently here in the South but in the rest of the world as well, is seeing these initiatives that kind of grew organically but so quickly where people are doing what you’re describing Hugh, they’re saying, “ Let’s make sure that people who are elderly or immuo-compromised and can’t get outside have you know if not some human interaction, they have something to eat and it made me think about how intertwined food is with community outreach. This sort of to your point Richard where you said everybody is a consumer of this. What are some like community outreach things that you guys have seen that – I don’t want to be too Pollyanna or optimistic or naïve about it but what are some things that you’ve seen or you’ve participated in that have inspired you in this current situation?

Richard: Yeah, I mean for me it’s – I mean everything’s been well documented but it’s the feeding and cooking for restaurant workers and employees you know sending food to hospitals to take care of healthcare workers. You know, Hugh mentioned earlier Jose Andres and the support that I’ve even received on my platform to get donations to World Central Kitchen. You know that’s what again cooks and chefs what we’re trying to do everyday when we’re not in a crisis is just make people happy we just turn that up a couple of levels when we have to you know bring someone joy and good food and hospitality can do that.

Knoll: Okay, we’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsor and then more with Richard and Hugh.

Matt: Okay we’re back, let’s get right back into it with Richard and Hugh.

Matt: Can we just switch gears for a second?

Knoll: Yes.

Matt: Richard, you said the phrase quickfire and I’ve always had a question because the three guys here, we’ve been on set before for various things and you know I’ve always had a question about cooking shows. So, I’m going to use Top Chef as an example just but because you guys have both had experience being on that show in various capacities. I think you could probably insert any competitive cooking show into this for this question. But generally you will see a segment where there are contestant chefs cooking their hears out for you know an elongated period of time and then afterwards there’s a whole different camera setup, there’s a whole different like feeling and area where shooting is happening. I know for a fact that that takes a long time go get right and to continue moving to shoot something like that. How do you keep that food that was just cooked furiously – how do you keep the integrity of that food moving over to some other place and then kind of sitting out and waiting as you go down the line of you know the judges judging that food.

Richard: I mean, you know there is – as a judge you’re not judging food on temperature, usually temperature is the one thing that everyone is – although different shows are a little bit different that temperature is the one thing that everyone is understanding that hey this is not at it’s optimal temperature right now so I think, that’s where you were going with that. You know people understand that it might have been five minutes or ten minutes or fifteen minutes that the food or their plate sat there before it was judged and that can affect also the inside baseball scoop there’s as a cook and a chef we know that taste changes when something’s hot or when something is cold. So knowing that or knowing the type of food to cook can sometimes become an advantage you know, I mean there’s lots of contestants myself included probably who know that like well a very cold, raw, seafood dish might be a good thing to serve right off the bat. Because it’s going to be cold, the judges are going to taste it first, it’s going to have high acidity, it’s going to sort of affect the pallet of what that judge is going to taste after this dish. So hopefully, I’m not diving too deep into the game right there but as a judge we all sort of understand that hey temperature isn’t to be considered most of the time.

Hugh: Yeah, I’ll say more I don’t work with the show anymore. Quickfire challenge starts and then it stops and then they read everybody rules and then they reset cameras and that type of thing happens all the time. There’s other strategies involved, Richard’s actually got a classic strategy which I don’t – I’ve picked up on but I don’t know if anybody else has, I don’t even know if it’s his strategy on his point. But in a scenario where we’re cooking for a lot of people and they each have to approach us for that taste of whatever we were doing and then they’re going to vote on mass later on. I’m always of the mindset that like I just want to get out as much as possible. Richard not so much because you’re never told how many you have to serve so Richard slow rolls. He’ll put one plate up, another minute, another plate up. See I’ve got twenty in front of me, I’m just like pushing it out, going crazy. And he’s like just – he’s exhaling, he’s fine, deep breath, Zen and he’s just slow roll.

Richard: Yeah, I’m the Houston Astros of Top Chef, that’s what we’re getting to right here.

Matt: Well that kind of thing is just so interesting to me, when you’re thinking about trying to make a television show and put out great food. Like that to me is always interesting, just actually how you manage the food itself.

Richard: No, I mean Hugh is breaking down a big part of the show it’s that Hugh is an amazing chef who cooks in restaurants. And so you have to sort of break yourself away from maybe the type of chef you are in your restaurant, versus the type of chef you are on whatever show it is that you’re cooking. Because Hugh was saying this right now; like hey there’s people at this event I want to feed all of them, I want to get them food, I want to make them all happy; quite honestly I could care about the three sound bites of the three people who don’t like it, I only care about the four judges that are rolling up to me in this contest. And I’m going to pay very special care to you know these four or six little bites. So, it goes deeper than even what Hugh was suggesting, not only do I slow roll it, but I preserve the four or six little bites for the most important people at the most important time.

Knoll: I have always wondered you know in all these shows where so much drama is created by the clock and the countdown and like ‘Oh no, I have to redo my batter’ or whatever all of that stuff. Is this an accurate timeline that we’re seeing? Like as a viewer, is it pretty preserved or are there moments where they cheated a little bit and stopped the clock and that gets cut out?

Hugh: No, it’s generally pretty accurate but you have to realize that the drama is created in edits. Its – there’s so many different perspectives you know, I mean a show like Top Chef has like probably eight cameras going. You’re filming much longer than you the, know whatever forty-two minutes of television is for an episode so they’ve got you know eighteen hours of tape that they’re whittling down to forty-two minutes and their angle is they want to find drama, they want to find humor, they want to find mistakes, they want to find burning completely botched scenarios; they live for that shit.

Matt: Richard, I’m trying to watch your face.

Richard: Yeah, I mean I just feel like Hugh thinks I’m a company man now that’s what I’m – all the facial expressions are that –

Hugh: No, no, no, no, no, not at all. I’ve just always been known for being totally irreverent and not giving a shit so…

Matt: That’s why this is special.

Richard: But Hugh was right you know, the timing specifically on like Top Chef it’s legitimate and you can jump cut and put some music drop in anything to make it seem pretty dramatic. But I have hosted baking shows where it get’s really exciting because you have to make a time announcement that’s like, “Alright bakers, you have six hours left.” And you’re like what there’s no way you can –

Hugh: “I haven’t even started my starter yet.”

Richard: Right, right, “I’m just going to walk over to the flower now and like if you put the right music on that’s dramatic.

Ben: So, when we’re on this point you know it’s something that a lot of our fellow listeners have always suspected and are probably grateful to get some first-hand information or as you said Richard, a little bit of inside baseball on some of these things. Because it goes to a larger point like it’s fascinating the way that in edits (like you mentioned Hugh) it’s fascinating the way that reality can be altered for broadcast you know. And I’ll say even sometimes on podcasts we see this right and podcasts are often – like in all of our podcast we’re pretty sincere and we’re ultimately trying to (God I feel so corny buy I’ll saying it) but we’re trying to educate right, at some point. And I don’t think it changes anybody’s enjoyment of shows. Now I have a personal story, you guys remember the original Iron Chef? With the guy who like snapped the bell pepper and he’s got this weird complicated backstory about why he’s making people cook with NATO and stuff.

Hugh: The Chairman. Is that the chairman?

Ben: Yes. Yeah.

Hugh: Are you going to talk about the Chairman’s son?

Ben: That’s Iron Chef America, right?

Hugh: Yeah, but that guy – he’s an actor dude. I thought he was really the Chairman’s son; he was in the Double Dragon movie!

Ben: That’s – that’s my story, I was saying like the original Iron Chef I grew up thinking that it was totally this. That there was this like Bond culinary super-villain who for some reason was driven to these extreme lengths. And you know, I wish I still thought that. Like I had no idea about –

Richard: No one’s stopping you, you can still believe in it. Like it’s okay, like believe whatever makes you feel good especially in these times. The Chairman was real.

Hugh: My belief was even one step removed from yours because you’re talking about the original Chairman, I didn’t know anything about him. I just knew the son of the Chairman and I thought he was real. And then I realized he was Billy from the Double Dragon movies. But you’re saying the original Chairman is also some kind of actor?

Ben: No, I’ve done a complete one eighty. Richard, you’ve inspired me with your advice. I’m choosing to believe it’s legit, it’s real, it’s happening, and you know what there was a brief Iron Chef America thing on TBS I was believe wherein William Shatner was the main guy. Now that one I didn’t fall for.

Richard: Although I’ve known private chefs that have cooked for Shatner and you’re not that far off.

Matt: This is what I want to get to, we had John Hodgman on the show a little while ago and he told us about having dinner at a secret society, what was it called?

Knoll: Book and Snake.

Matt: Yeah, Book and Snake secret society. Have you guys ever found yourselves either cooking for or eating in a very strange place, in a very strange world that you didn’t expect. That nobody else could really get in there unless you were you.

Ben: Have you got down with the Illuminati I think is what Matt is asking.

Matt: No, that’s not what I’m asking. I’m just asking like something strange that would be just interesting.

Richard: I have never been invited to the Ortolan party, although I’ve heard of these. You know the Ortolan, the small little bird that –

Ben: Yeah, yes.

Matt: I – I don’t know this, what is the Ortolan?

Richard: Man, you’re going to have to do some research. You guys are the experts in research but it’s a tiny bird that you’re not allowed to eat that from what I’ve heard and maybe seen once, people eat and cherish and basically eat – it’s a very small bird and they eat the whole bird in one bite and they put a napkin over their head while they’re doing it. So, there’s a – a specific incredible ritual that maybe I have seen once when I cracked a door open that I shouldn’t have in a French restaurant.

Ben: Woahh!

Knoll: There you go, there you go – yeah the napkin over the head if I’ve - if the stuff I’ve read is to be believed is to ‘Hide your shame from God.” Because it’s such a decadent act, to eat this tiny bird and it’s really meant to be something only boujiest of the boujie can enjoy. And it is in fact illegal now but it is something that was very popular I believe during the Renaissance if I’m not mistaken or at least that’s kind of when it started.

Ben: It’s to hide your sin from God, so that you don’t have to live in shame.

Knoll: That’s right, that’s right, that makes more sense. Hugh how about you? Any – any crazy behind the curtain glances at you know weird high society banquets or strange stuff that you’ve happened upon in catering or even just like you know guests on your restaurant, without naming names. Just give us a little taste.

Hugh: No, I mean not really. I don’t know, maybe I’m just living a boring existence but no it’s not really (And I wouldn’t tell you)

Knoll: You have to have at least served Michael Stipe before; can we at least assume that that’s the case?

Hugh: Uh, yes.

Knoll: Okay great.

Hugh: But he’s never done anything weird so it’s fine.

Knoll: He’s not a weird guy, he’s really nice and pleasant. And I’ve seen him around town multiple times, lovely, lovely, guy.

Matt: Well guys I think we’re wrapping up here. Is there – so both of you have podcasts out that are pretty new. Hugh, you’ve got ‘The Passenger’. Can you tell us a little bit about what’s going on with that show right now and just what it is?

Hugh: It’s a travel show, so it’s on Hiatus because nobody’s travelling nobody wants to hear about travelling. It’s a show just about places I go and what I see and what I do and where you should go when you get there. It’s like just discovering that every place you go has this heart beat that you want to find and just – I’m your tour guide.

Matt: I would just say it’s – It’s better than Hugh is selling it right now. I mean, it’s a great show I’ve listened to the episodes.

Hugh: I never sell things well.

Richard: No, Hugh’s got – that’s a classic restaurant tour then, you under-promise and over-deliver. He does it all the time, I work with this guy a lot. It’s an amazing podcast, his food is amazing.

Matt: Oh, I would just say specifically because you’re listening to this show I would recommend listening to the two most recent episodes of The Passenger just because it is a serious look at what the restaurant industry faces right now. But just keeping in mind that there are some good things out there too. But Hugh, I think you might be able to tell from this episode. Hugh, and I don’t mean to speak out of turn, but your outlook is a little bleak but it’s very straightforward.

Hugh: It’s an honest, negative perspective.

Ben: I think that’s what we need though, we need realism.

Hugh: Honest negativity, and that’s why I’m here.

Ben: Well you know there’s this thing I learned about recently or someone said, “I’m so tired of all this toxic positivity, sometimes it’s okay to just be angry about something.”. And you know, that hit me. That stayed with me - almost as much as my ill-fated appearance on your podcast Richard, FoodCourt – with Richard Blaise. You know, it’s a fantastic show.

Richard: And a great Segway.

Ben: My pall Knoll and I had a lot of fun. We were able to preserve our relationship but there were moments where our friendship was in some dire straits over our profoundly personal feelings. What is Food Court, Richard?

Richard: Yes, Food Court is my new podcast that at one point recently hit number twenty-four in the Comedy category! I waited for some like studio applause –

Knoll: No, no, we’ll put it in post.

Richard: There you go. And Food Court is where we take celebrities like yourselves chefs, actors, writers, comedians and they come on and they debate some serious, hard-hitting food like you guys did, “What’s better, beacon or sausage? Flour tortillas or corn tortillas? So real heavy-hitting, serious topics get debated on Food Court and then at the end of course, I make a decision that most people disagree with. And that is the general assessment of the show, but we are having fun doing it and thank you so much for being a part of it. Hugh, we’ve got to get you on an episode.

Hugh: I would love to do that.

Matt: Oh, you know what; I’ve put my hat in with your producer to be on the show because I like happened in on a recording a little while back that you’re making and I so badly want to be on the show too.

Knoll: It’s a lot of fun, Ben says ill fated but everyone that I’ve talked to says they think he made a better argument. I think it’s just you know I was sausage and he was beacon and I think I swayed Judge Blais with the idea that sausage is more adaptable or it’s more – more variety in sausage than there is with beacon, I think that was kind of what the kicker was. But Ben, you gave me an absolute run for my money, and I did not think that I was going to emerge victorious so I wouldn’t look at it as a negative thing at all. Matt even said he was siding with you all the whole time so just putting that out there.

Richard: It was the toughest verdict that I had to deliver because you guys, with your background and experience come in with information. Like most of my guests are just shooting from the hip and you guys came in with actual facts and I think the next time you come on the show you need to argue as a team and we need to bring in another celebrity duo or trio to go up against you guys.

Ben: Oh wow.

Knoll: I would love that; can we do Simon Majumdar? I just saw you had him on recently and I’ve always found him to be delightfully prickly, I would love to go head to head with that guy.

Richard: He is even more so now because if you go to his Instagram page, he’s not shaving during quarantine so he’s a bald man who now has lots of hair.

Ben: I’m doing the same thing actually guys, I’m at the stage now where I’m impressed when I hop on a call or something like one of the first things I notice when Hugh and Matt popped up on the video call I was like, “Wow, these guys are still shaving they’ve got their s*** together, I need to like…”

Matt: I heard that it was safer, that’s all, that’s all.

Ben: It is supposed to be but I’m going to be coming out of this looking like a character from the Old Testament.

Richard: You look like a really cool college math professor.

Ben: Oh (chuckles) thanks guys. Everyone stand on your desk okay, thrown the text book away.

Hugh: He’s got the Doctor Manhattan background though. If you stand up and you’ve got a blue penis dangling in front of you this is weird.

Matt: We’ve had a lot of fun on this episode but we do know that there are a lot of people out there who you know, are not able to work at a restaurant right now and make the money they used to make. So, just want to put this out there that the National Restaurant Association Educational Foundation has set up something called the ‘Restaurant Employee Relief Fund’, it’s something that you can both donate to and hopefully benefit from if you’re having that experience right now and having some hardship in the wake of the Corona Virus disease. You can go to REF.US to both donate and or seek assistance there and recommend you do that now if possible, please donate if you can. I know we’re going to be doing that here on our end and if you do need assistance that’s a good place to go. Are there any other things you guys want to shoutout here at the end?

Richard: You know all I would say is, just remember you know I’ll try to use a culinary analogy here but like the forest burns down every once in a while, and usually after that - morels grow. And like we are going to get through this, like Hugh mentioned during our conversation; things are going to come back, it’s going to be different but we will get through this and we will get through it together.

Hugh: Yeah, I’m more of the burning the forest down myself right now but I think that people need to realize that it’s not that a lot of us wont have trouble reopening. It’s that a lot of this industry is going to have a lot of trouble six months down the line after reopening. Unless consumers really make a good effort to do what they always have loved doing, which is going out and eating good food. One way or another, you’re going to get it. There’s going to be ways to get it, we’re going to come up with those ways in a safe environment and we just need your buy-in as eaters.

Knoll: You know, Hugh I heard a great perspective today about how that’s really the case for this notion of re-opening the country, re-opening the economy. You can’t just flip a switch, its about people and their buy-in in general. Whether it’s spending money, whether it’s going to restaurants, whether it’s going to ball games or movies or concerts again. It’s all about when are people going to be you know comfortable enough to resume that. It’s not about what the president says, you can’t make people you know just magically join life the way it used to be. So there’s going to be like a kind of a pendulum swing, it’s certainly not going to be like a rebound but I think – I like to take the stance of conscious optimism. I’m ready for that switch to be flipped and I know that I’ll be out there doing those things but it’s going to be interesting to see.

Ben: We want to thank you guys, thank you Hugh, thank you Richard so much for your time today. You know I don’t know about our fellow listeners Knoll, Matt but a I learned a lot of stuff that I didn’t know. Which is – that’s a very low bar so nobody get a real big head about that, it’s easy for me to learn new things. And we are going to call it a day but just because this episode is over, it doesn’t mean the show is over. You can find Hugh and Richard online, you can learn more about their work, you can find their new podcasts that we have talked about, do check them out. We’re not recommending them just because we’re friends with these guys, these are fantastic shows and a lot of work has gone into them. So, check them out, let us know what you think. They’re available now wherever you find your podcasts. In the meantime, you can find us in the usual places, we’re all over this internet thing. We think it’s a fad that’s going to really take off in a few years so, we’re on Facebook, we’re on Instagram, we’re on Twitter, uhhh we lost our Pinterest account.

Matt: Yeah, sorry about that guys I was inappropriately posting some things about ‘Magic: The Gathering’, the copyright thing. Yeah, it’s fine. You can find us on all those places, we’re Conspiracy stuff for Conspiracy Stuff Show. If you can call us right now if you want to our number is 1833stdwytk, you can leave us a message, you might get on the air or maybe you’ll just send a message to us and we’ll get to listen to it. You might get a call back from me, I’m kind of bored at night sometimes so we’ll se how that plays out. Right before we end here, do you guys have any open restaurants that are doing any kind of delivery or to-go right now that we could support or that people would want to support, that you’d want to call out.

Richard: Yeah, people in the Southern California and San Diego area can support ‘Juniper and Ivy’, which is doing a weekly menu and curb-side pickup as well as a couple of locations of Crack Shack in San Diego and Orange County, California as well.

Hugh: Me, no. Just to an emergency food.

Matt: Please support those restaurants if you can and any restaurant really. Like my family is trying to do take-out as much as we can afford right now just to support our local businesses, I’d just recommend trying to do that as much as you can too. If you don’t want to contact us, you don’t want to do that stuff you can always send us a good, old-fashioned email we are Conspiracy@iheartradio.com