Episode 7 - Mikel's story

Hannah 00:00:17 Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us here to listen to the seventh episode of the syllabus for overcoming stigma podcast or SOS, where we hear from real people who have real experiences with mental illness. We hope that through sharing these stories, we could reduce mental illness, stigma in our community. And if you are listening and feel like you might recognize some of these symptoms as ones you might be experiencing yourself, we encourage you to seek out treatment and resources, which can be accessed on our podcast website, the description section of this podcast. And I will also be presenting them verbally at the end. So just provide my usual disclaimer. So I'm Hannah, I'm a graduate student at the university of Michigan. Um, but the goal of this podcast is not to provide therapy or diagnose mental illness in any podcast, guest or podcast listener and information shared on the show is not a replacement for diagnosis, professional advice or treatment. This podcast is really about sharing stories and the power of shared experience. So this episode has been in the works for quite a while, and I'm so excited that I could finally, um, find a time to have Mike on the show. Um, so Mike, a recent, um, PhD graduate from the university of Michigan, um, and he will be joining us here today. So without further ado, welcome Mike to the show.

Mikel 00:01:32 <laugh> thank you so much for having me.

Hannah 00:01:33 Of course. Um, so let's just jump right in. Um, would you mind just telling me a little bit about yourself, uh, and we can get kind of into more of the details about your journey in just a second, but maybe we'll just start with a brief introduction.

Mikel 00:01:48 Yeah. Uh, so presently, um, I think when people introduce themselves, it's often through the professional context. Sure. <laugh> so, um, presently I'm a postdoc doctoral fellow, um, at the university of Pennsylvania Pearlman school of medicine. And for those who are not, um, kind of privy to the academic jargon, the post-doctoral fellowship is kind of an in between stage of, uh, receiving your PhD. So I defended my PhD last fall at the university of Michigan. Um, but I'm not quite to the stage in my career where I'm a faculty member at an institution. So it's kind of this nebulous period of still being a trainee, but gaining independence with my research. Um, so nowadays a hundred percent of my time is committed to research, but within the academic sphere, I kind of wear mini hats, uh, very passionate about education. I've done a lot of teaching, um, yeah, very passionate about student mentorship and advocacy and, uh, but yeah, that's, that's kind of the, the general state of my professional affairs as being a, a scientist and an academic.

Hannah 00:02:48 Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Um, sounds like sure. Your students were very lucky to have you as their teacher and, um, it sounds like you found a great role for yourself as a postdoc. Yeah. Um, okay. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your story with mental illness and you can just start from the beginning. Um, typically I ask people kind of, when did they first notice that they were having symptoms?

Mikel 00:03:11 Yeah, I think, uh, probably my story is divided into two major chapters. Yeah. Um, I think, uh, it's fair to say, uh, that I've always kind of had a lower mood than

the average human being. Like I remember even as a kid, um, you know, my mom is kind of recalled at times, like the therapist that I saw when I was a young kid mentioned that I kind of see the world a little bit differently and that, that would probably present its challenges for me. But, um, in terms of kind of a clinical manifestation, it wasn't really until I started graduate school actually. And part of what makes my story unique is that my trajectory in academia's been very non-linear. Um, so I'm kind of unique in that. I actually did not obtain my PhD from the institution that I started it at. Um, I think to kind of rewind to the beginning, I can start, um, at the graduation, my undergraduate graduation, I got my bachelor's from the University of Michigan in 2014, and I started my PhD shortly thereafter at Stanford university.

Mikel 00:04:10 Uh, and I think it's fair to say, like I was quite excited and optimistic about the future. At that point in time, I arrived to California, um, feeling, you know, really empowered and excited about my future. Um, but, uh, suffice it to say things quite quickly changed in that first year of graduate school. Um, a lot of personal and professional, uh, challenges kind of presented themselves. And, um, I think there are really like two major parts of that experience at Stanford. Uh, the first of which wasn't super evident to the people around me, which was my first experience with severe depression. Um, like the first time I could actually feel it physically the first time I was really struggling with motivation. Um, you know, I was able to hide that part of my, uh, world from the people around me. Like I was still doing really well, um, succeeding a lot throughout my first year of graduate school, but really, um, having trouble on the inside.

Mikel 00:05:03 I think the thing that was pretty obvious to the people around me was my, um, obsessive and unhealthy relationship with food and exercise mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, I had kind of for the first time in my life focused on physical wellbeing after graduating college, but that pretty quickly devolved into like a really unhealthy and obsessive relationship with, um, uh, caloric restriction. And, uh, you know, I remember I had one of the early versions of the Fitbits and I was like tracking my activity, but also like obsessively tracking the things that I ate. Like I wouldn't eat anything unless I knew the calorie count on it. And I was, uh, pretty much always maintaining like a calorie deficit of like 1500 calories per day. Um, and so I lost a weight, a lot of weight really quickly, and I think that was people's cue that something wasn't, um, you know, something wasn't quite right.

Mikel 00:05:55 And I think a lot of my loved ones expressed concern at the end of that first year of graduate school that I just wasn't seeming like myself. Um, and, uh, to kind of make somewhat of a long story, you know, consumable after that first year of graduate school, I kind of had to do some soul searching. Um, it was the first time I actually saw a therapist mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, because I realized I really wasn't in a, in a community and in a context in which I felt like I was going to grow as a scientist and as a human being. Yeah. Um, and it kind of became evident to me that I was gonna need to make some pretty substantial changes in life if I was going to actually, um, kind of see through the goals that I had set for myself. Um, so because of that experience, I, I left Stanford after one year, uh, which was really hard for me because that was a goal that I had, you know, I had established very early on.

Mikel 00:06:45 Yeah. Um, and I wasn't exactly sure what was going to happen, but the universe kind of worked in my favor that I could come back to the university of Michigan and kind of continue my PhD. Like there was definitely a little bit of starting over mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but I came back to Michigan because I had loved ones there. I had a community there and, uh, it was an environment that was familiar to me. I felt like I would fit in, like that was something about Stanford. I just never really felt like I fit into the culture there. Yeah. Um, so, uh, so I came back to Michigan, uh, and I wish I could say things like improved immediately, but that's definitely not the case. Um, you know, I've, I've since struggled with depression, I still do to this day. Um, that's something that has been a pretty common theme, but pretty shortly after returning to Michigan as well, I started to kind of, um, experience periods of time in which I didn't really have language for what I was going through.

Mikel 00:07:38 I didn't really, um, I didn't have a definition for what I was experiencing, but there were periods of time in which I was kind of existing in these altered states. Um, now what I know is that I was experiencing hypomania, but at the time I had no idea what that was, but I just noticed that there were deviations from my normal normal behavior, the judgment that I was imposing on things like spending, for example, and just general behavior was, um, quite disparate from, from how I normally present myself. Uh, I'm typically a quite introverted person and I was becoming like, you know, really talkative and even having kind of grandiose like, um, perceptions of my experience in the world. Like thinking that I knew the answers to everything and that my research was the greatest thing to ever happen and that it life was perfect and it could be no other way.

Mikel 00:08:25 Um, and I, I remember like, you know, ha going through these periods of time and like having to objectively tell myself to like come back, you know, like there was always that kind of coming back moment. Um, and it wasn't really until midway through graduate school, when I decided to go back to therapy, that it was the first time someone had told me, like, you know, you experience symptoms of Bipolar disorder. Um, which was kind of a shock to me because I have people in my family who have Bipolar disorder and in my experiences, weren't like theirs. Like I, I had never experienced psychosis or any type of manic episode, but, um, you know, I definitely had these kind of, um, periods of time in which I was elsewhere and not kind of present. Um, so, um, even kind of with that knowledge, like that scared me quite a bit.

Mikel 00:09:15 Yeah. Um, I, I didn't really, I don't think I handled that information to, well at the beginning. And I went, um, about a year and a half before I actually sought out a diagnosis and, and got formal treatment for it. I will say like therapy has by far been the, probably the most helpful thing, um, for me to manage this. But, uh, things kind of came to, to a head around the time of the pandemic when I felt like perhaps I should actually seek out a formal diagnosis and try to get, um, treatment. So that was at the time I was, um, diagnosed with Bipolar disorder. And, um, you know, since then, like I've done a lot of learning myself and have tried to engage in particular ways, because I think part of the reason I didn't, uh, actually kind of acknowledge my circumstances or do anything about them was because I just, there was no awareness. Like I didn't know exactly what Bipolar Bipolar disorder was or felt like. And, um, so since then, I've just, yeah. Tried to do some writing on this and speaking out about it and hopes that others can, um, yeah. Hopes that my story can resonate with others.

Hannah 00:10:18 Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, this sounds like a long journey, and I'm glad that you're kind of in the place that you are now, but certainly, yeah. I think also it's interesting that you mentioned that other people in your family might have had, you know, Bipolar, Bipolar disorder or symptoms of it, but your experience didn't necessarily match there. So I think that's always an interesting thing for other people to hear. If they're looking for some sort of archetype of what that looks like, doesn't always look the same across people. Um, so

Mikel 00:10:45 Yeah, yeah. It was something that I had to learn as, I mean, you know, by no means I'm a mental health expert obviously, but there are just many different subtypes, right. With different manifestations and everyone everyone's experience is different. So that's been a huge learning experience for me.

Hannah 00:10:58 Yeah. Um, and I know you talked a little bit about it and so feel free to just pass on this, if you don't wanna talk more about it, but what was kind of the process of actually like seeking treatment, like for you, was it easy to find a therapist? Was it challenging? Did you have to try a few till you found the right one and you also moved, it sounds like in that process, so that might have been yeah. Extra challenge <laugh>

Mikel 00:11:19 Yeah. I think I've Al you know, I mean, I always come into this conversation by acknowledging the privilege that I have as a human being. Like I have access like being at Michigan, you know, we have really good healthcare and like the ability to reach out to a therapist, like there's a good network there to be able to achieve that. So, um, kind of logistically it wasn't challenging for me to find a therapist. I think I've been very lucky in having like really good therapists who, who we can connect almost immediately. And I, I think that was super helpful because I know a lot of people who have to go through a few at the beginning. Um, so, uh, yeah, you know, I've always been very fortunate from, from that sense. And then, you know, by having that connection, finding a psychiatrist, um, was also, uh, again, I just feel very privileged to have had all those connections, you know, made for me. So I, I have to say like my personal experience is that, um, it's been quite easy, but, you know, I acknowledge, um, you know, how the intersection of mental health and things like gender identity and race. Yeah. And all those things can influence people's, uh, ability to access therapy and, you know, to have competent therapy.

Hannah 00:12:21 Right. Right. Okay. And then once, you know, you, it sounds like your actual experience with the therapist was pretty good. It sounds like they were, they were helpful.

Mikel 00:12:30 Yeah. I mean, um, you know, I, I kind of think about things in the, like through the lens of a scientist, you know, I've had kind of, you know, interventional, like I've had interventions in life and I, I think, yeah, the, the tools and practices that I've gained from, from my therapist, particularly at Michigan were super helpful. And I think what's been kind of interesting is having recently gone through a life change to now where I'm in Pennsylvania. I actually, haven't established a relationship with a therapist, which I, I can tell like that, that, you know, that's showing itself. Like I I've, I've had a really difficult time transitioning at, um, at particular moments. And that's like something that's a taught my to-do list, especially as a recently as like establishing that relationship because not only have I found like tangible skills to be able to use in my life, but also just having a conversation. One thing that my, my therapist in Michigan always said was like separating the emotional self from the objective self. And I think like that's something that I, um, I have a really tough time getting out of her, like really deeply emotional states where I can't see anything, but the negative emotions that I'm kind of immersed in and like, um, you know, being able to impose objectivity and logic on my set of circumstances is something that I'm always, always struggling to, to do.

Hannah 00:13:41 Yeah. Yeah. No, that sounds challenging, but I admire kind of your continued work at it. Um, okay. So shifting, you know, this is a podcast about stigma. So I always

like to talk to guests about, um, you know, there's the idea of cell stigma. So the stigma that we might pose on ourselves, but also just, um, kind of how we fear that others perceive us or how they might actually in reality perceive us, which is unfortunate. Um, but did you ever kind of encounter self-stigma or other kind of general mental illness, stigma in this, um, journey when you were experiencing or when you are experiencing symptoms?

Mikel 00:14:16 Yeah, I think a lot of the stigma has been kind of driven from within, um, as I mentioned, I was pretty fearful of like even seeking out, seeking out a diagnosis and like, I, I have found, you know, uh, I have to give myself grace in that, because if you look out at kind of the cultural representations of what Bipolar disorder looks like, it's off, like it's often through the lens of someone being unhinged, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like creatively or someone who like is the aggressor. And, um, that just never resonated with me, but I always feared how people would perceive me, even, even like, even though I know that a lot of people love me. Like my parents love me and my friends love me. I was really scared to tell my parents and my friends. Um,

Hannah 00:14:58 Mike is definitely, for our listeners, very well loved by the way. And many people tell me that I should have him on the podcast.

Mikel 00:15:04 Oh, well, yeah. Thank you. I mean, yeah, but I think, and that's, that's the kind of paradox, right? Because the thing that I struggled with most was fearing that if I, if I had this formal diagnosis that people wouldn't love me. And I think at the time in particular, like thinking about that from a romantic perspective, I was like, how is someone ever going to, how is someone ever going to trust and love me as a partner, if, if I have this kind of label attached to me, that Indi that would indicate otherwise. And I mean, it's, you know, funny, like that's just so far from the truth. <laugh> I think, you know, people just value that, that vulnerability and authenticity mm-hmm <affirmative>, but a lot of the, yeah, a lot of the stigma was kind of driven by stories within, and that's not entirely true.

Mikel 00:15:44 I mean, I've never had someone kind of, at least to my knowledge profile me in a negative way, but you do hear things like I hear the term Bipolar being used incorrectly and out of context, as a means to kind of impose negative connotations on things. Right. Which, um, I've yet to really have like the, the courage to kind of confront, um, upfront. But you do, you do hear that, but I think even then, like, even though people, um, have been incredibly kind to me, there is kind of that overarching umbrella of stigma, right. That kind of consumes the spaces that we exist in. And I think that's particularly true in academia where I've been able to address these things on platforms such as this, but it's still really hard for me to even address within academic spaces. That it's something that I experience. And I think in large part, you know, like for example, last week I was having a really tough time, a lot of, you know, the racing mind kind of presenting itself and I to give a presentation in my lab. Wow. It's like, to me, that was such a disorienting and confusing and challenging experience, but it's like, I can't go into that experience. I can't go into that setting and be like, you know, Hey everyone, I'm like, kind of on the brink of hypomania. So gave up a little bit, like, I can't,

Hannah 00:16:53 You can't the way someone could, if they had COVID or COVID or something like that. Yeah. That's very

Mikel 00:16:57 Interesting. Right. You know, because it just, um, because then you're kind of setting a tone that that may kind of reinforce that stigma. Right. Totally. So, um, I, I find that that's the, the most challenging part for me is being able to kind of show up as myself authentically, but also not be influenced by that general sta that the general stigma that permeates not just academia, but, but all spaces. So it's something that still shapes my behavior in ways that I probably don't even realize all the time. Um, but by and large part, I think that that's the most, if I can like say the most important thing is like through the process of like talking to people about what I experience, like I've just found love. Like that's it. And even, even people within academic spaces, like my thesis advisor, when I was having that conversations with that conversation with him about, uh, about being diagnosed, like it was just all of, you know, people just respect that and they want, they want you to be happy and what's best for you.

Hannah 00:17:51 That's really, really nice. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, I think we've had a few people talk about definitely the interaction of like their professional lives and stigma, but I'm glad you also mentioned, it sounds like there are relationships too in the professional world, but also your kind of more, um, partnership for your romantic relationships. I think maybe a lot of people experience that, but don't necessarily share that outwardly yeah. Cause of like an extra added layer stigma maybe, but I'm glad that you mentioned that.

Mikel 00:18:17 Yeah.

Hannah 00:18:19 Okay. And my next question is kind of thinking about culture, um, which is kind of unavoidable and inherently tied to disorders and our experiences, but has your culture, or, you know, your identity has that at all experienced your kind of experience of mental illness?

Mikel 00:18:36 Yeah. I don't think we can talk about American culture without addressing toxic masculinity, right? Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, I think, you know, the, the historical expectation is that men don't talk about their feelings and don't talk about their challenges and that you're kind of supposed to put up a front and not acknowledge what people may perceive to be as weakness. I think that's an antiquated view of things that like vulnerability is weakness, but that, that's just the reality of how we've kind of come to embrace that culturally. Um, you know, and, and that's something that I've been presented with in a lot of different spaces I personally believe. And I, I think everyone would agree that academia in large part is driven by masculinity. I mean, there's just historical context to that. And, um, I think that definitely influences the way that I present myself, but also like in my personal life, one of my major passions is like ultra endurance running and, and, and like that is very much influenced by toxic masculinity, like men who are like, you know, I need to suffer to like, you know, achieve higher purpose in life.

Mikel 00:19:35 Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. So I think, um, you know, that's one space in particular that I've tried to like be vulnerable about and, and just to, um, to kind of push back on the notion that like you have to white knuckle through things because, um, yeah, I think like masculinity should be tender, right? Like it should be rooted in love and like, and, and to be tender and to be full of grace. And, um, yeah, I don't know. I don't, I don't know if we're completely there yet, but I think, um, I think there is a, a general shift, um, especially when I look out to men who are talking about, um, their challenges with mental illness, I think, um, that's helping to kind of shift the, the stage and to help create more space for, for men to actually talk about their feelings and to reach out for help and to understand that there is strength in that. Um, so yeah, I think that's the, that's the main angle by which it's

Hannah 00:20:26 Just influence me. Thank you. I, I, we haven't had a male guest on the show actually, so that's a interesting, I haven't thought about that so much in the context, you know, and of the stigma itself, like there's this trifecta, your professional life sounds like your personal life running these marathons, and then also your real experience with mental illness and how that's all kind of interacting with your kind of identity as a man. So that's really interesting.

Mikel 00:20:49 Yeah. And I, you know, I think, uh, specifically as it pertains to the ultra endurance space, like I've, um, you know, I've been able to make like really meaningful connections. You know, I, I run as part of an organization called bigger than the trail, which helps to financially support therapy for folks. But as part of that, this, you know, the founder is a, is a man who also deals with Bipolar disorder. And I think we've, you know, we've connected. That's really cool. Um, so yeah, there, there are people doing amazing work to help push back on that

Hannah 00:21:15 Narrative. That's awesome. I'll try to link that if I can figure out how to do that for sure. Okay. Um, so yeah, these are kind of some more, maybe positive questions, but kind of, you know, you definitely mentioned that people in your life for the most part sounds like were pretty supportive. Um, is there anything else that has been really helpful for you either as like, you know, it sounds like running definitely maybe has been a useful hobby to take up, but anything else that's been helpful or specific people or, or things that you found useful as you were, you know, adjusting to this reality of your diagnosis and, and what that means for you?

Mikel 00:21:51 Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty, I'm, I'm really careful to talk about running in the context of men mental health, because I think a lot of people, uh, conflate that with therapy, like people say running is my therapy, right. And as someone who is like gone, who is, who has run a lot and done a lot of therapy, the two are like in my mind, very distinct in their function and purpose. But yeah, I think I, the two, I think the two biggest things that have helped me therapy for one, as I mentioned, uh, gaining tools and skills, I think to my surprise, the most, probably the most influential thing is just having a loving relationship with like a really amazing human being, you know? Yeah. Like I, I put up a front for so many for so many years that I, I, wasn't gonna kind of open myself up to that because I, I feared not only like that, I couldn't be accepted for who I was, but I just kind of feared like how, how I would perceive that, um, in my life and it's it's role and function, but yeah, I mean, just having a partner who is just so empathetic and kind and loving and supported, um, has been yeah, quite transformative.

Mikel 00:22:56 And again, it's one of those things, like we're kind of having to do the long distance thing because that's the way academia works. But, um, it's been a, yeah, it's been a huge challenge to be apart from her for that very purpose. But I remember having that conversation, um, yeah, about a year and a half ago with my, with my therapist, the time just kind of voicing my concerns about, about starting a relationship. And she was the one who really kind of pushed me to open my, my lens on that. And yeah, as I mentioned, I just, I never imagined that having a loving and supported, uh, partnership would really transform the way that I kind of see myself. Like I'm still super critical of myself. And there are times in which I don't feel like I'm worthy of love, but I, I think that she has hoped to really push that narrative into a much more positive and accepting. So, um, yeah, I think, yeah, just having really supportive relationships is super important, so,

Hannah 00:23:52 No, that's great. That's awesome. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm sorry that you're doing long distance. Yeah. But yeah, it's definitely the way of the academic world and it sounds like you were proactive about it. Um, and that was on your radar. So yeah, I guess, yeah. I also like to ask us about just general kind of advice for others. Um, and again, acknowledging that everyone's experience is different. Um, but kind of, what do you think you might say to somebody who is first experiencing these symptoms or maybe is just been like given this diagnosis of Bipolar Bipolar disorder. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts about what you might want to say to

Mikel 00:24:29 Them? Yeah. Uh, I think the first thing is like, um, try to give yourself as much love as possible. Right. I think, uh, yeah, in my experience, I kind of automatically switch to judgment about myself and fear. And I think, um, just opening yourself up to, to being loving toward yourself and allowing others to communicate their love for you. And, and again, I, I am, I'm very privileged and that I have amazing people in my life. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, but you know, now I look back and it's, I kind of, you know, I, I question why I ever wondered whether I would receive love and support. I think just talking about it with people, um, yeah. Can be, can be so, uh, transformative and that's not even, that's not even just true about the Bipolar disorder. Like, that's so true about like my experience with Stanford as well.

Mikel 00:25:15 Like I, when I came back to, to Michigan, I was pretty quiet about that for a long time. It was really weird for me to even see people from my past life who were like, I thought, you know, I thought you were at Stanford. Yeah. You know, and I, I just didn't talk about it for a long time, but then it just started off as like a conversation here or there, and just kind of for the first time talking through my experiences and then, you know, hearing that being affirmed by someone else and saying that, that resonated with them and then becoming more open about it. And then, you know, kind of culminated in, you know, writing an article and in one of the biggest magazines in science, like, and just having, you know, just understanding the ripple effect of that. So like obviously you, that communication kind of is motivated by what you feel comfortable with.

Mikel 00:25:59 Mm-hmm <affirmative>, and that's super important to acknowledge, but if, if like, if you can just talking about it with the people who love you and then allowing that to, um, yeah, to kind of ripple out is, is important. And I think just, you know, being authentic about it and I've, you know, I've, again, I've written on relatively large platforms and have been on podcasts. And I think like, it is just the, the authenticity is what's so meaningful to me because I think just being open about my experiences, like I've just developed relationships that I never thought I never imagined I would have. And I, I think there's just so much power and vulnerability and authenticity. And, um, so yeah, as much as you can, like, just make connections with people and try to give yourself grace and, uh, yeah, and then I'm always a huge advocate for therapy.

Mikel 00:26:44 Like find someone who's, you know, trained and who's a professional and, and can help you talk through your experiences in life. And, and, you know, even, you know, I'm very pro medication too. Like I know people who have their lives have been transformed by, by psych meds. So, you know, just kind of keep yourself open to possibility to acknowledge that your experience isn't going to be, you know, uh, exactly the same as everyone else is. So, you know, tune into yourself and learn from yourself and, and as much as possible, share

that with, with the people that you love and people that you haven't even met yet. Yeah.

Hannah 00:27:16 Yeah. And we're very grateful that you're willing to share kind of this for the podcast, be that voice for others. And I didn't know about the article, but you'll have to share that with me. So yeah. I can put that there as well. It sounds like maybe there's a few articles that you've written.

Mikel 00:27:28 Yeah. A couple. And I just like, you know, some in science, some in running just, um, yeah.

Hannah 00:27:33 Awesome. Um, okay, so kind of wind down, but how else has your experience with mental illness shaped who you are as a person? And I know you've kind of addressed

this in different ways, but if there's anything else that you want to add.

Mikel 00:27:45 Yeah. I mean, I think professionally, like I wouldn't be in academic science. I don't think with the motivations that I have, if not for it, like, I'm very driven by like creativity and curiosity, but ultimately science is kind of the vehicle for me to like interesting help. Yeah. Help positively impact people's lives. Like that's why I'm so passionate about education and mentorship. Um, like I, you know, I don't wanna just spend my life doing research mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so, yeah, and I, I, that kind of is very much informed by my experiences. Like, I mean, anyone who's in academia will acknowledge that the culture of academic science and academia generally is, um, I think undergoing positive change, but is still by and large part toxic. And it's really my hope to kind of bring, you know, love and acceptance and empathy into the classroom and to, yeah.

Mikel 00:28:33 To use education as a means to like really feel like the emotional and creative growth of, of my students. Um, so it's very much informed, like what I want to get out of life, but personally, like, you know, I, I wouldn't wish this upon, like, I don't wish this upon anyone. Right. And I don't, I definitely don't ascribe to like, you know, my mental illness is my superpower. Like that's, I think that there's a lot of problems with that narrative. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, you know, I think it's safe to say, like, I don't experience joy a lot as a human being, and that's not because I'm like always sad. It's just, I'm a very critical person, like critical of myself, um, in particular, but, you know, and I think the one thing that this experience has given me of is just an appreciation and gratitude for like, when I know that I'm experiencing joy and it's not associated with like the kind of empty bliss, that's, that's part of like being in a hypomanic episode. Like I just know when I'm experiencing joy and I'm trying to get better of like holding onto that, um, for longer. Um, so yeah, I think, yeah, it's, it's shaped how I experienced the world in obvious and maybe non obvious ways mm-hmm <affirmative> and then it's really kind of shaped what I hope to do with my life, which is just to, yeah. Um, try to use education for like the growth of the whole human being, like acknowledge and honoring, acknowledging and honoring the, the humanity that is part of the student. So

Hannah 00:29:52 I love that. That's great. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so I think that's all my questions, but is there anything else that you wanted to share? I like to give guests an opportunity to just any final wording, words of wisdom that you wanna leave guests with.

Mikel 00:30:06 Yeah. I, uh, yeah, I mean, we covered so many good things. Yeah.

Hannah 00:30:10 You really did have a lot of good tidbits in there.

Mikel 00:30:13 <laugh> I think, um, you know, in my, like, in my experience of having, you know, done things like this, the one, uh, the one thing that I wish maybe I would've communicated better, or the one thing I wish people would've like written about differently or said about me differently is I think oftentimes like these things are communicated with a sense of finality, right? Like, and they use, like, they talk about my experience in the past tense. Like he overcame, or he like, you know, he persisted and it's like, I don't know. I, I come away from these things feeling like I'm, um, kind of projected in this way of like having conquered something. And it's very much still like, it's an ongoing process. It's something like I acknowledge I'm gonna be dealing with for the rest of my life. And I've gotten much better at managing it.

Mikel 00:30:56 And, you know, I'm able to extract more joy out of the world than I thought possible at the beginning, but it's still very much an ongoing struggle. And I think that's just important to acknowledge that, like, nobody really has it figured out even people who don't have mental, right. Haven't figured it out, you know, like we're all, we're all kind of on this collective journey together. And so it's just the best you can do is kind of acknowledge where you're at and to help others where they're at and, and cuz we're all kind of seeking love. So

Hannah 00:31:24 Yes, I love that. That's just a good ending and yes, I just wanna reiterate that point. That is so I think valid and important, I think that, um, the importance that is placed, some people, especially in their, you know, journeys with their mental illness is like, okay, well, you know, words will wait for you to be done with that. Or, or, and there is that kind of, um, maybe pressure to feel like there has to be kind of an endpoint, but a lot of these disorders are kind of lifetime illnesses and it's all about managing them throughout that. So I think actually taking away that pressure could be helpful as well. So I'm glad that you shared that with everyone. Yeah. Um, so thank you to Mike. Um, so much for sharing your time, um, with us today and for your braveness and sharing your story with me and with others who are listening, um, and then to our podcast, uh, listeners, thank you, uh, for listening to Mike's story, I hope that this was in some way helpful for you today, either in curating empathy for yourself or for others. So thank you very much again, Mike.

Mikel 00:32:23 Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I an amazing time.

Hannah 00:32:45 Hi everyone. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the syllabus for overcoming stigma podcast. If you enjoyed listening to Mike's story, please don't forget to leave us a rating on apple podcast or Spotify. And I'm looking forward to sharing more stories from members of the Washtenaw county community each month on this podcast. If you're interested in being a guest yourself, please reach out to me by filling out the, uh, link in the notes section of the podcast. And also in the notes section, you'll find a link to a stigma survey. And if you fill that survey out, you can be entered to win a $50 gift card. As a reminder, the national suicide prevention lifeline is 1-800-273-TALK or 1 800 273 8255 and that's available 24 hours, seven days a week. The university of Michigan hospital psychiatric emergency service is uh, available at 742 936 5900. Again, that's 742 936 5900. And I'll also be providing some Bipolar disorder specific links in the notes section of the podcast. If you feel that that information might be relevant to you. Thanks everyone for listening. I hope that you have a wonderful rest of your day and stay tuned for our next episodes.