Episode 6 - Skylar's story

Hannah 00:00:18 Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us here to listen to our sixth episode of the syllabus for overcoming stigma podcast or what we call SOS, where we hear from real people who have real experiences with mental illness. We hope that through sharing these experiences, we can reduce mental illness, stigma in our Washtenaw county community. And if you are listening and feel like you might recognize some of these symptoms as ones that you might be experiencing yourself, we encourage you to seek out treatment and resources, which can be accessed on our podcast website in the note section of this podcast and at the end verbally of this podcast recording.

Hannah 00:00:55 Now, before I get started, I wanted to let listeners know that this episode contains content that might be hard for some including mentions of suicide. Please review the resources I just mentioned. And additionally, the suicide prevention lifeline is 1-800-273-TALK.

Hannah 00:01:16 So as usual, I just provide my disclaimer. So I'm

Hannah, as y'all know, I'm a graduate student in psychology at the university of Michigan, but the goal of this podcast is not to provide therapy or diagnosis, mental illness in any podcast, guest or podcast listener and information shared on this show is not a replacement for diagnosis, professional advice or treatment. This podcast is really just about sharing stories and the power of shared experience. So today I am really looking forward to this conversation. We will be talking with

Skylar, who is a graduate student here at the university of Michigan, in addition to many other roles, which she'll share with you and yeah. Uh, Skylar, thank you so much for being here today. I can't wait to get started.

Skylar 00:01:57 Thank you. It's such an honor to be here. I'm so excited about it. Woo-hoo

Hannah 00:02:01 Okay. So we'll jump right into it. Um, but first, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself? So our, uh, listeners can get to know you?

Skylar 00:02:09 Yeah, totally. There's so much to tell you about a therapist once told me that I only stand a shot at sobriety. If I stay busy, well, I'm busy and I'm sober. I've got three gigs at the university of Michigan. I'm a full-time LGBT+ clinical psychology lab manager, a part-time student starting to be a therapist. And I'm teaching an undergraduate course research methods in psychology. Non-academically I like to get outdoors, run hike, ski, play sports, meditate, make music. Wow. I played piano and percussion. I actually got a minor in music. I did my undergrad at Boston university and majored in philosophy and psychology. So that's another thing I do. I like to read psychological philosophy. It that's cool. Yeah. It to answer really important questions like how to live a good life. And there's a lot of great answers to that question. There's no singular answer that works for everyone.

Skylar 00:03:10 There's many answers and different ones work for different people. For many that answer to life is religion. For me is some combination of like stoicism, Daoism, existentialism. I like Buddhism too. Along with the philosophies of Nietzche. Well, he's an existentialist <laugh> well, all of this is to answer your prompt. Tell me about yourself. And the root of all this. Everything I do is a passion for mental health. I read philosophy for my mental health. I get outside and exercise for my mental health. I make music because by doing so, it makes me happy. The research I conduct as a lab manager focuses on LGBT+ T mental health. I wanna be a psychotherapist so I can strengthen the mental health of LGBT+ people. I believe that the foundation of a good life is good mental health. So that's what I've dedicated my life to. Oh, also about myself.

Skylar 00:04:06 I'm a transgender woman and that's why I'm here today to talk about gender dysphoria and, and, and depression. I spent the first 21 years of my life in the closet. And that ized me living in the wrong body, drove me insane. That's when my mental health problems peaked, but nowadays four and a half years after I came out, it takes a lot of work to maintain my mental health and the face of all the hate. The transphobia, the discrimination I experience on a daily basis is rarely overt, but it's insidious, especially all the transphobic rhetoric and the news I read about people hating me and my community. What seems like every day. I can't, I can't help, but to click on those headlines and internalize all that transphobia. In fact, a, a research paper was just published. That shows a negative correlation between media consumption and mental health amongst Trans people.

Skylar 00:05:13 I personally know that research to be true, but what choice do I have? Like, should I just not read the news and not know what's going on? I've accepted that ma that reading the news makes me mad, but I've also accepted that reality is hard no matter what. So no matter what I do or how I navigate life I'll encounter scenarios that make me mad, sad, or some other negative emotion. I've reluctantly accepted that people hate Trans people, a sizable contingent, probably over half the world hates Trans people. Our very existence is illegal in 70 countries, possibly more but brooding about that won't change that it would just harm myself. So I've accepted it. I do my best not to let it bother me. There's another stoic concept that plays into this. The dichotomy of control. It essentially divides everything we experience and to just one of two categories that which we can control and that which we cannot mm-hmm <affirmative>. And unfortunately we don't have control over most everything like, like the weather or bad people, or to use a very relevant example for college students, bad teachers. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, the actual quote about this from the stoic Epictetus says,

Hannah 00:06:39 I love these integrations. I was not expecting that.

Skylar 00:06:42 Oh yeah.

Hannah 00:06:43 We might have to do some citations in the, in the notes. Okay.

Skylar 00:06:47 Continue. Yeah. I, I love, I love quotes. Um, I've got way too many memorized. So yeah, ADA said some things are within our power while others are not within our power, our opinion, motivation, desire, aversion, and in a word, whatever is of our own doing, not within our power, our body, our property reputation office, and in a word, whatever is not of our doing. So, what this means is that we can't control what happens to us, but we can control how we, how we react to it while we can't control the world in everything it throws at us, we can control ourselves. Victor Frankel, the Jewish psychologist who survived. Auschwitz said we are no longer able, sorry. When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.

Hannah 00:07:46 That's one of my favorite quotes. I'm glad that included someone.

Skylar 00:07:51 So his point is that we can change how we react to everything. Life throws at us in order to be sustainably happy. We have to, it takes practice. Like we're practically taught that when someone does something bad to us, we should get angry, but we don't actually have to get angry. In fact, by allowing ourselves to get angry, we're really only hurting ourselves. It's a total waste of time and energy and mentally harmful to try to, or even just desire to change that, which is outside our control. My favorite manifestation of this concept, the dichotomy of control is actually from religion, but I like to eliminate the God grant me part. I'm sure you've heard this before.

Hannah 00:08:34 This is a good one,

Skylar 00:08:35 Too. I have the serenity to accept the things. I cannot change the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. So in this case, I've accepted that I will get discriminated against that I will face transphobia, but I have the courage to change what I can, my reaction to that transphobia. I don't let it get to me because if I did, then I would be letting that transphobia win. Instead I take a deep breath and move on with my life, as EPITDA says, make the best use of what is in your power and take the rest as it happens. Okay. So you've only asked me one question so far. Tell me about yourself. And I might have just given the longest, most elaborate answer the history of this podcast.

Hannah 00:09:21 You definitely said a record. I'm very

Skylar 00:09:22 Impressed. Yay. But like I gave you a very holistic answer, not just about what I do, but, but also how I think. And now I, I think, I think I'm ready for the next question.

Hannah 00:09:33 Okay, great. Yeah, that was wonderful. Actually, a bit of, um, integration of positive psychology with philosophy. Um, very nice. I think those are some good quotes that people can take away. Also, my aunt sometimes listened to this podcast and she's the one who originally shared with me, the God grant you the, um, serenity to change. Oh gosh. Now I'm gonna

Skylar 00:09:56 The serenity prayer,

Hannah 00:09:57 The serenity prayer. Correct. Um, and that one stuck with me. So she'll be happy to hear that. Yeah. Okay, great. So thank you for sharing that Skylar. Um, I'm sure you have a lot of more interesting things to share with us as well. So could you share with us, um, your story with mental illness from the beginning? So when did you first notice you're having symptoms? How did this all start?

Skylar 00:10:18 Absolutely. Yeah. Um, I should preface this with a few things. Like I just say LGBT+ B T okay. And only LGBT+ B T just because I think it sounds better than LGBT+ Q I a two S plus. Okay. Because you know, that's 10 syllables

Hannah 00:10:37 Also. So just for brevity?

Skylar 00:10:38 Yea just for brevity really. Okay. Yeah. And you knows saying just LGBT+ T plus the rest of the letters. Like, I don't think anyone who has ever said LGBT+ B T has purposely done so to exclude queer intersex or asexual people, plus there's so many more identities under the LGBT+ LGBT+ T umbrella that wouldn't get a letter anyways, like pansexual safety, sexual demisexual, gender fluid, nonbinary. It goes on <laugh>. So for any possible listener who identifies as LGBT+ T, but not specifically as lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender, I want you to know that you're welcome in this community and that your identity is valid. I should also give a heads up that my experience with gender dysphoria overlaps with depression and anxiety, it often does. Mm-hmm <affirmative> the technical term for this is comorbidity, the simultaneous presence of two or more conditions as I'll go into later with minority stress theory, the way that society treats LGBT+ BT people, inflict depression and anxiety. So I thought to give a trigger warning about that. Okay.

Hannah 00:11:44 That's great. Thank you.

Skylar 00:11:46 Okay. One last preface. This is just my personal experience. There are so many ways one can be transgender, and this is just how I am transgender. I tried so hard to convince myself that I'm not transgender because I didn't have certain things in common with other Trans people. Like, like I didn't play with girly toys as a kid, but no matter what, if you think you might be transgender, then you might be transgender. So with all that prefaced, I'm ready to tell my story.

Hannah 00:12:14 <laugh> that's great. And I just wanna say, I think that's a good kind of preface for any sort of mental illness that we discuss on this podcast, as I'm sure, um, listeners have noticed, but everyone's experience even with the same set of symptoms or disorder can be really different. So I think I'm glad that you gave that caveat in general. Thank

Skylar 00:12:30 You. Okay, great. Yeah. So my story from the beginning,

Hannah 00:12:33 Let's hear it.

Skylar 00:12:34 <laugh> my mental health problems peaked in high school and it wasn't just because I was in the closet. Being a teenager is hard for everyone, especially nowadays with social media is human nature to compare ourselves with others. That's why the happiest countries like, like Denmark have higher rates of suicide, because to be unhappy in a happy country, surrounded by happy people will make you feel even more severely unhappy. That sheds light.

Hannah 00:13:03 I've never heard that before.

Skylar 00:13:04 Yeah. It sheds light on the cliche misery loves company, but if there's not much misery, but since there's not much misery on social media, you know, people don't portray their misery. They only portray the best parts of their life, the happiest parts. And also the wealthiest parts. Like it's appalling how many people rent material goods, like sports cars should take pictures with them and act like they own them. People tend to be fake. And this fakeness is dangerous. Like, like even, even skin tone is often P fake. Like people have acne, like 90% of people in America have had acne, but you almost never see a pimple on social media. Maybe if it was more common than the mental health ramifications of acne would be less severe. So yeah, comparing myself to all the cool kids in high school made me feel inferior. Um, I just really didn't belong there, but I never really felt like I belonged anywhere.

Skylar 00:14:03 I had friends, but not really good friends. I played sports, but conflicted with a team's chemistry, the worst part was deep down inside. I knew I was transgender. It was my deepest darkest secret. And I did such a good job at keeping it a secret. I con I constructed a convincing masculine facade. I don't think anybody would've guessed, but the weight of that secret was overwhelming genders at the core of identity. So that insecurity haunted me. It haunted me. I turned to drugs like most people and, you know, oftentimes LGBT+ T people they're a super effective short-term solution, but long term they're disastrous. They can erase anxiety. Like the poet Thomas Gray said ignorance is bliss. Um, ignorance is also dangerous. Sure. When I was high, I didn't care about anything, but I couldn't be high all the time in between highs. I overthought everything. What would I do with my life? What did people think of me? What if I can't get into a good college, what's going to go wrong next. I felt hopeless and I hated myself. I jumped off a bridge, but thankfully I, I landed in wilderness therapy. I spent eight weeks hiking around the Southern desert of Utah. Not, not far from the grand canyon. I, I had a backpack so large. I could have fit inside it myself, but, but I didn't even get basic necessities, like, like a pillow green utensils.

Hannah 00:15:49 Wow.

Skylar 00:15:50 Um, when I first got there, I did not sleep. A bed of sand is not nearly as comfortable as an actual bed. I also didn't eat the slop, which I had to cook myself over. A campfire was revolting. I remember it poured rain to like, like pretty much the first day and without anywhere to take cover, I just sat in the sand and took it. I washed with reluctant acceptance as my clothes backpack. And I became drenched it's. I told myself, it's what I deserve. Hm. Hell. On earth, fitting for a retch soul on earth. It's not so much that I wanted to die. I just didn't want to keep living for the two years. Prior to that, I had washed with reluctance, acceptance as rain drenched, every aspect of my life. And after all that time, I reluctantly accepted that the storm would never stop. Nothing could make it stop. Um, amidst that rainstorm a, a wilderness guide. Read me a quote, whether you dance in the rain or SU in the rain, it will rain regardless. Why?

Hannah 00:17:06 Like that one <laugh>.

Skylar 00:17:07 Yeah, it's a great quote. But I thought it was so dumb at the time.

Hannah 00:17:10 <laugh> my high school, like senior quote was don't forget to sing in the lifeboats. <laugh> Aw, but same message.

Skylar 00:17:17 Yes. Very well.

Hannah 00:17:18 I can understand also why that would feel a little bit, um, yeah. Cliche at the time, but

Skylar 00:17:23 <laugh> uh, yeah. So, so the rain stopped thankfully, but then a few days later I saw a tarantula. I'm a rock neophobic. But at that time I was so apathetic that I could not have cared less. I told a guide who shoot it away. A few days later, I saw a scorpion. A guide told me that native American tribes would eat them. So of course I decided to as well, I picked it up by a stinger, bit it off flicked. The stinger away felt all eight of his pointy legs crawl across my T. And then I crushed it down. Brave is Gus sprayed everywhere. I vividly remember this. It was disgusting, but I swallowed every last bit of it. Everyone in the group gasped kind of like you just did <laugh> yeah. I could see that they commended my courage, but I didn't do it outta courage.

Skylar 00:18:25 I did it to feel something. Uh, the author, Nora Roberts once wrote feeling, feeling too much is a hell of a lot better than feeling nothing at all. Mm-hmm <affirmative> this experience proved that to be true. I didn't regret him. So in wilderness therapy, it seemed like every day was roughly the same. The son would wake us up. We'd cook breakfast. We'd take 15 minutes for personal meditation time during which we'd read, write, or, you know, sit in silence and meditate. Then we would hike for seemingly ever and ever. And the guys would never tell us how much further we had to go, because it's about the journey, not the destination. <laugh>

Hannah 00:19:07 Surprised you didn't add that quote in your quote lineup.

Skylar 00:19:11 <laugh> yeah. Well, when we finally dig it to our next camp, we'd start a fire, cook ourselves dinner and talk about life. And then we'd fall asleep when it wasn't raining, which, which was thankfully, most nights we would sleep under the stars. And this was in one of the darkest places on earth. So we would see a shooting star every few minutes. I had blocked myself off from feeling positive emotions, but even at that abject level of depression, I could not deny the beauty of a shooting star. I remember that first one, I saw that one small light shooting across the sky. It, it shot through the walls of misery. I had barricaded myself behind. It was so beautiful and, and I could not deny his beauty. It forced me to have a positive thought. And that was the first positive thought I had in months.

Skylar 00:20:05 It forced me to face the fact that there is beauty in this world. I was just blinding myself to it as does happen with depression. <laugh> yeah. So the next day I put more effort into my meals. I managed to cook something that I actually recognize as tasty. The next night, I took a few minutes to sculpt a bed outta sand. It was comfortable at least as comfortable as a bed of sand can be. And that was another positive thought. I carved utensils from wood. I put time and effort into making a really good spoon. I learned how to conf how to effectively configure my clothing bag into a pillow. I actively took steps to make my life better, to facilitate positive thoughts. Like, like the Buddha said, if anything is worth doing, do it with all your heart, I would elaborate upon this to say whatever you have to do, do it to the best of your ability.

Skylar 00:21:01 Even if it's just making a spoon is always worth putting in the extra effort to do it well is always worth putting in the effort to improve your life. With this realization, I found the difference between consuming a meal and eating a meal tracking with a 50 pound backpack and hiking with friends. The difference between a mistake and a learning experience and in between existing and living, I, I learned to cultivate positivity and to focus on the positive I had. You know, I had always looked for happiness, but never found it. And wilderness, I realized that you have to fight for happiness, but it's always achievable. That's why there's that cliche life is what we make of him. Mm-hmm <affirmative> well, life's hard, especially in, in wilderness, but we have the power to make it better. And no matter how hard life gets, it will always get better. Rain came, but always stopped hiking less miles, usually 11, but we always reached our next camp. Friendships developed and conversations, deepened that that desert Tundra became a remedial paradise. I stayed sober for exactly 250 days after that program. Congratulations. Thank you. But the problem was that I was in a group of men seeing cisgender male therapist. It was a place to accept many truths about life.

Hannah 00:22:31 So it was all men in the wilderness.

Skylar 00:22:32 Yeah. Yeah. They divided the cruise by gender. That's pretty

Hannah 00:22:35 Interesting. Okay.

Skylar 00:22:37 Yeah. So it was a great place to accept many truths about life, but it was not the place to accept that I was transgender. So I relapsed gender dysphoria is severe it's it is in the DSM before it, the DSM would diagnose all Trans people with gender identity disorder and therefore it would consider all Trans people as mentally ill. Thankfully that's changed. And now is gen is just gender dysphoria, which doesn't stigmatize Trans people as much because it's not chronic it's treatable. Like, like I don't think, I don't think I have gender dysphoria anymore. At least, at least not severely. Um, it's because it's treatable with surgeries and hormones and, and I've treated it with surgeries and hormones. So that's

Hannah 00:23:27 An important distinction to make. Thank you for sharing that. Also, I just wanted to let our listeners know that the DSM, I know you and I know what the DSM is, but the DSM is the diagnostics statistical manual. And this is what we use to diagnose disorders. So gender dysphoria, which Skylar is talking about today, just like depression, those are both in the

Skylar 00:23:43 DSM. Yeah. And the DSM is controversial, but you know, it's kind of the best we have.

Hannah 00:23:49 I think we're all on autopilot to say that, but yes, it's the best we have.

Skylar 00:23:53 Hopefully maybe one day something will replace a DSM. Like the hierarchical taxonomy of psychopathology is, is very promising. But right now we use the DSM and it, the DSM classifies or diagnosis, Trans people with gender dysphoria, which I actually like to think of as a medical condition, not a psychological one. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because medical interventions like surgeries, not only alleviate gender dysphoria, but they also impart gender euphoria. <laugh>, it's an amazing feeling. Almost nothing makes me happier than it. I remember the first time I mustered the courage to paint my nails. I could have stopped looking at them and smiling. They just made me so happy. They felt so right. But it took so much to get to that point to break free from all the cultural norms and toxic masculinity that barred me from, from accepting my feminine side. Oh, you're gonna ask me about stigma, right? Yep. Great. Cause I'll because I'm about to answer that question. <laugh> okay, great.

Hannah 00:25:01 Um, then Skylar, do you have any experiences with stigma that you want to share?

Skylar 00:25:05 Um, maybe at least a little bit <laugh> yeah. Um, talking about stigma explains why it's so hard to come out as Trans it's one of the most stigmatized identities. So the answer to this question, the stigmatization of transgenderism is norms. We are biologically programmed to adhere to norms. We evolve this way. It, it helps us function in groups. The, the norm adherence mechanisms in our brain create mutual expectations. They provide clear lines of proper conduct and they be, they deter betrayal, which is all really helpful for functioning in groups. So it was naturally selected for generally, this is a good thing, but when one doesn't intrinsically adhere to a norm, it can be detrimental. So internally knowing that I did not fit the cisgender norm made me feel like an outcast. Like I was weird throughout the first 21 years of my life. Every time I had the opportunity to make a wish like upon a well, a shooting star, a four-leaf clothing, birthday candles, every time I wish to be, to be content in my assigned up birth gender. As, as a male, when, when I was young, I, I wish to be a girl, but, but then I stopped believing in magic and started wishing for something more realistic.

Skylar 00:26:33 I hated myself for feeling that way for wanting to be a girl all because it deviated from the norm, but there's nothing I have ever wanted more than to be a girl. Eventually I realized that I'd rather keep wanting to be a girl for the rest of my life, thinking about it every single day, or I would actually become a girl. And I'm so happy that I did externally the cisgender norm punishes, Trans people. It motivates discrimination, transphobic laws, and hate crimes. Over two Trans people are violently murdered every month just for being Trans Trans.

Skylar 00:27:22 So there's an important concept in psychology called minority stress theory. And it highlights the ramifications of these norms. We know that sexual and gender minorities are more likely to suffer from mental illnesses. That fact has been misconstrued to purport that LGBT+ T that that to be LGBT+ B T is to be mentally ill, which is so wrong. The body of research behind minority stress theory shows why the LGBT+ mental health disparities are explained in large part by stressors induced by this hostile homophobic culture, by the harassment, mistreatment, discrimination, and, and victimization that LGBT+ T people experience in this culture. Um, minority stress theory shows that if anyone experienced what LGBT+ T people did, if anyone was treated the way LGBT+ T people are treated, they too would have the same mental health outcomes as LGBT+ T people. So the mental health issues that LGBT+ T people face isn't the result of being LGBT+ T is the result of the environment are stigmatizing environment. That's one reason why I'm so grateful for this podcast. That's dismantling stigma and normalizing stigmatized issues and identities.

Hannah 00:28:46 I love the way that you explained that, by the way, that was very clear. Um, and I think that is a point that maybe isn't always like, even though, even in the reduction of stigma that maybe we've seen over the last two years, hopefully. Yeah. I feel like still that piece is maybe missing a little bit. So thank you for explaining that to our listeners. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, I wanted to ask you next, you know, this sounds like a really challenging journey, a very long process. Um, but it also sounds like you're in a very good place now. So I wanted to ask, and I always like hearing from people. What else has been helpful for you in your life? Are there people that you've relied on for support or other things they don't have to necessarily be people?

Skylar 00:29:24 Yes, so much has been helpful. Like, like wilderness therapy was helpful, but also, you know, individual therapy. I might be a little biased because I'm studying to become a therapist, but I truly believe that everyone can benefit from a therapist. <laugh>, it's just so helpful to have someone you can talk to that bears no outside influence on your life that has no power or control over your life. Like you can say anything to a therapist and they will not judge you, unlike your Miranda rights, whatever you say will not be held or used against you, unless you wish a confidentiality agreement, which every therapist will tell you about. Um, there's really no other person in our life like this. I, I think that is really helpful for Trans people because there's so, there's so much to talk about. Gender is a complex Bihama of a concept.

Skylar 00:30:20 There's so many genders. One can be in so many ways. Each gender can look like it can be really tricky to navigate, but a therapist can help you navigate him. In addition to therapy, group therapy is helpful too. I've I've noticed an interesting phenomenon amongst Trans people that, that many of us in the earliest stages of our transition don't actually know any other Trans people. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. This is the case for me. When I first started HRT that's hormone replacement therapy, uh, for, for, for me as a Trans Trans woman, that's estrogen and testosterone, anti testosterones, sometimes progesterone. Yeah. So when I first started that I still presented as a man. I was not feminine. I, I still had that, that masculine facade up. Um, so I, I, I didn't enter any LGBT+ spaces, let alone woman spaces like bathrooms. It, it took me over a year to, to join a Trans support group.

Skylar 00:31:23 And it turned out to be the most beneficially transformative moment in my transition for the first time ever. I made friends who were not only similar to me, but also knew me for the real me for the first time ever. I had a strong, healthy friend group there's strength and solidarity. And I personally know that to be true, but unfortunately it's hard to discover that because there's not many Trans people only 0.5% of the population is Trans we're rare. I've been in Ann Arbor for three years now and have only made one good Trans friend Bailey. I cherish her shout up Bailey wherever you are <laugh>. Yeah, but I've never had a Trans professor or let alone a transition transgender classmate. Um, so the, the few Trans friends I do, I do have, I absolutely love, I, I also have a few cisgender friends who have been so helpful and so supportive, like, oh, oh, to, to, to name drop again, Amelia Alyssa Sabrina. Like these friends, like have always been by my side. Like they taught me how to do makeup and I'm so grateful for them. Uh, and, and there's a few other friends too that have been absolutely instrumental. So, so I'm very grateful for all the support that I have.

Hannah 00:32:53 That's great. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. Um, it's nice to hear about the people that have been supportive in everyone's journeys. Um, did you wanna share anything else about treatment or what that process has been like? Or do you feel like you covered enough of it?

Skylar 00:33:07 Yeah. As somebody who's studying to be a therapist, I've, I've thought a lot about what, what I should tell Trans people like, like what Trans people can benefit from hearing and primarily it's that it gets better. It really does. And it always does. Transitioning works is really effective. It, it alleviates gender dysphoria and imparts gender euphoria research has shown that not only does it reduce the likelihood of suicide, but that the further along in transition someone gets the lower, the risk of suicide gets for me making that shift from wanting to be a girl, to actually being a girl mm-hmm <affirmative> has made me happier than ever. <affirmative>. I also want people to know that it's never too late to transition. I transitioned at 21 after puberty, so I developed larger hands feet and Adam's apple, brow bones, everything. And I pass, like I've had doctors ask me all about my menstrual cycle. <laugh> I've had men wearing Trump hats.

Hannah 00:34:14 Did you say to that?

Skylar 00:34:15 Oh, I'm just like, oh, very regular.

Hannah 00:34:18 <laugh> it's okay.

Skylar 3 00:34:21 Yeah. Totally normal. Very healthy.

Hannah 00:34:24 Everything's good.

Skylar 00:34:25 Yes. Like my voice dropped, but a few months of voice feminization classes help with it. I still have that low voice that it'll never go away.

Skylar 00:34:37 That that being said, it's still hard to pass a hundred percent. I'm certain I don't pass a hundred percent, but I'm also certain that I sufficiently pass. One of my mantras is sufficiently feminine, cuz I'm not a hundred percent feminine. Nobody is a hundred percent feminine. Gender is a spectrum. Like for me, when I first started my transition, I actually identified as androgynous right in the middle of that spectrum. And I've slowly been sliding further and further to the feminine side ever since, but I'm still breaking free from my masculine roots, from how I socialized for the first 21 years of my life. That's a lot to break free from, but I have worked really hard to break free from it. And undoubtedly I have broken free from a sufficient amount of it. So although my voice is not always on point or sometimes I absent minorly do something masculine like slouch or sit with my legs apart.

Skylar 00:35:41 Thanks mom, for calling me out on that. Those things don't make me any less of a girl. You know, like sometimes CIS girls sit with their legs apart. Unfortunately though those Mo those moments do make me feel just, just not myself. Th this is actually a unique minority stressor to the Trans population invalidation. So to go, to go back to minority stress theory, there's myriad, minor stressors like for racial minorities, which minorities stress theory also absolutely applies to there's racial discrimination. I, I just read a, a research article that found evidence for employment discrimination against black women with natural hairstyles. It in, in the study recruiters consider those hairstyles to be less professional, but those were their natural hairstyles. So there's unique minority stressors for every minoritized population and for Trans people while there's a lot like getting misgendered, getting referred to at the wrong pronouns, it hurts.

Skylar 00:36:52 It hurts like hell, I've just, I've just gone through so much to not be referred to. As he, I spent tens of thousands of dollars on my transition. I spent over a hundred hours taking voice feminization lessons alone. I've taken over a thousand estrogen pills and I've, I've lost good friends all for the sake of being a she so get so to get referred to, as he makes me feel like all that effort wasn't worth it, that it hasn't been successful. That I'm still not my true self, a woman. So yeah, pronouns are important. Um, other minority stressors, bathroom discrimination over 70% of the Trans population has been denied access to verbally harassed or physically assaulted in public restrooms. So given that over 60% of Trans people actively avoid public restrooms, that statistic is way too high. Can you imagine not feeling safe in public restrooms? Can you imagine not using public restrooms? This is a huge stressor for the Trans community.

Skylar 00:38:06 Um, another, another minority stressor. The one that got me talking about minority stressors is the concept of validation or, or more accurately in terms of a stressor in validation. So, you know, by definition, Trans people identify as a gender opposite to the one they were assigned at birth. But as a consequence of being assigned a gender at birth, you're raised socialized and besieged with those gender norms. And if Trans people aren't able to start their transition before puberty like me, they'll develop secondary sex characteristics that don't reflect their true, their true identity. So personally have a small atoms apple though. I like to think of it as an Eves apple. I also have brow bones. I'm only six feet tall. My, my shoulders are proportionally a bit bigger than the average woman's yeah, but these characteristics don't make me any less of a woman. I'm a cisgender population.

Skylar 00:39:11 There's an immense amount of natural variation and all of the secondary sex characteristics that Trans women may have falls within the scope of that natural variation. And sure, there's, there's plenty of surgeries that can erase those secondary sex characteristics. Like you can get a trachea shave for Eves apples. You can get your brow bone shaven down too. That's facial feminization surgery. There's many more. You, you can even get a shoulder reduction surgery nowadays. And while all these surgeries make Trans women look more feminine, I would argue that they don't actually make Trans women anymore of a woman because Trans women are woman, no matter what. So this minority stressor invalidation it's, it's important for Trans women to know that no matter what, no matter how you look or how you act, you are a woman. Your identity as a woman is valid. Trans woman are woman. Even if someone gets your pronouns wrong, even if you haven't made any Trans any progress in your transition yet, you're still a woman. Okay. So what would I say to someone experiencing gender dysphoria? It gets better. You'll make a lot of progress with your transition and it's easier to pass to sufficiently pass than you would think. And no matter what it's worth it, it's absolutely worth it. It's a cliche to be your true self, to be true to yourself. And that's what being Trans is all about.

Hannah 00:40:51 So how else has your experience with mental illness shaped who you are as a person?

Skylar 00:40:56 Uh, it's inspired my career path. Um, yeah. I feel like as somebody who has struggled with mental illness, but emerged successful triumphant from that battle, uniquely capable of helping others. I agree. Be successful as well.

Hannah 00:41:15 Yeah. That's a, that's a good answer. I like that. Um, okay. So now kind of in the wrapping up kind of motivational phase of the podcast, what would you say to somebody who is maybe also experiencing these symptoms? Like, you know, if you could implant someone in your life at that time of your life that you were just sharing with us about, um, what would you kind of wish someone would've said to you?

Skylar 00:41:38 Yeah. You know, I, the, the main issues that Trans people deal with are, are really depression, anxiety, you know, like it, you know, it's very comorbids. So I feel like a lot of advice that's helpful for Trans people is, is universally applicable mental health advice, especially for college students. There's, there's so much, I wish I knew. And I was a college student and I'm sure that's relatable. Like doesn't everyone have something they wish they could tell their past self. The main thing I wish I could, I could yell at a 20 year old

Skylar. Yeah. Is that it does not matter what you do. It really doesn't. <laugh> okay. That that's, that's a very full statement. So let me clarify what I really mean is that it, it doesn't matter what path you choose. Yeah. As a college student, your whole life is in front of you. There are so many paths you can take and major decisions you have to make. I made many major decisions and most did not work out.

Hannah 00:42:40 Yeah. I think that's a good reminder. Yeah,

Skylar 00:42:43 That's totally okay. It, it doesn't mean that they were wrong decisions. So, so I like to share my convoluted journey in the hopes that it will help any listener feel better about wherever theirs, wind up. Okay. So yeah, there's so much you can do with a college degree. None of them lock you. None of, none of them lock you into a singular career path, which is overall a great thing, but the amount of possibilities can be overwhelming. The Danish philosophers sore in kike guard. He's arguably the first existentialist. Okay. He famously proclaimed anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. Oh,

Hannah 00:43:23 I like that.

Skylar 00:43:24 Yeah. So to interpret that quote, he meant that since there's so many different choices we can make, we can become overwhelmed with freedom. And with a college degree, you have so much freedom. There's, there's so much you can do. I, I graduated three years ago and have already done so much with my degree.

Hannah 00:43:44 True. She has,

Skylar 00:43:45 <laugh>. Yeah. You've, you've heard the highlights and now I'll share the less than highlights. I'll start way back in high school. My, my senior year, everyone was going to college. So I figured I should too. I had no idea what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. It seemed like every year I was a totally different person than I was the year before, but I had always been mu a musician. I, I was actually the number one ranked xylophone in my home state. Love

Hannah 00:44:12 That.

Skylar 00:44:12 <laugh> yeah. So I decided to major in music, but then in music school, I took a philosophy class and fell in love. So I switched to, to philosophy, but then I took a psychology class and fell in love. So I transferred to Boston university, the one school that would allow me to double major in philosophy and psychology and minor in music, in a cumulative total of four years was the perfect school for me. Um, yeah, I, I finally felt like I had found a way to combine all my interests, but still as I approached graduation, I had no idea what I would do to make money. I panicked. I, I discover that people with the same degrees as me are often hired for human resource positions. So of course I got a certificate in HR <laugh> it took four rigorous months. And the main thing I got from it was that I hate HR.

Hannah 00:45:06 <laugh> I was told the same thing. They said, you should look into a HR career.

Skylar 3 00:45:10 Yeah. You know, like it's a great field. It's just not for me or my personality type. And I paid a few thousand dollars to learn that. So upon graduation, I had no job moved back in with my parents and wondered what the purpose of those past four years had been. I found myself just one click away from flying to Thailand to teach English. When I told my mom this, she panicked <laugh> she's religious told me to have faith and convinced me to wait at least one week. Okay. And I'm so glad she did because the day after a social science research position opened up at the university of Michigan, it was absolutely perfect for me. In every way. I wrote the most passionate cover letter in my life, practiced hours for the interviews and spent the next year and a half working that awesome position I wrote code, of course, it's kind of a Trans feminine stereotype.

Skylar 3 00:46:01 That pretty much all of us write code. Oh, <laugh>. So I wrote code to help manage the world's largest social science database. I got to Polish and publish data on this database that came from top research universities from all around the world. It was really cool. But again, I discovered that it's not quite for me. I'm extroverted. So writing code on my computer all day just felt a little lonely. Yeah. Maybe a little isolating. Some people love it, but it just didn't match my personality type. Um, I also learned in this position that, that the research data I enjoyed working with the most, the projects that seemed to bring the most happiness and meaning to my life was the LGBT+ T data I got to work with. I actually got to work with a us transgender survey though, the largest survey of transgender Americans ever conducted.

Skylar 00:46:57 And I loved it. So yet again, this experience elucidated another preference. And thankfully with my newfound preferences, I found another job that was perfect for me. And this one turned out to actually be perfect for me. I'm now an LGBT+ T clinical psychology lab manager. Um, and I'm working in this position to this day. So over the past five years, I've set out on five different paths. Five of them, music, philosophy, HR, Thailand, and coding did not work out. And the failure of those pursuits inflicted existential crises and realizations. Like I'm not going to make it in HR where I just spent four months studying, what am I going to do now? So many times throughout my life, I've asked myself now I'm the honest, most truthful and best answer to that question. I don't know. And that's okay. One of the central tennis of doism is wu wei. It translates to non-doing or non-action it's about being an effortless alignment with a natural world in more colloquial terms. It's about just going with the flow. Doism highlights the harmony of nature, how nature does nothing but leaves, nothing undone and practice the mind of woo way flows like water reflects like a mirror and responds like an echo and quote <laugh>. It's like a cork in water hitting it down will cause it effortlessly will cause it to effortlessly float back up.

Skylar 00:48:40 So a person embodying wu wei. Doesn't deliberate about what they will do or how it will work out because that's not helpful. If you go with the flow and act in harmony with nature, everything will work out. If it doesn't work out, it wasn't meant to work out, which means you would then be on the path. You are meant to be on like many people. I face many serious decisions about my life, but instead of agonizing over them, I wish I had realized that whatever happens is meant to happen, that there isn't, there is not an ideal answer because whatever the answer ends up being will be the right one. So don't worry about what you're doing with your life, because you don't need to know what you're doing with your life. Just go with the flow.

Hannah 00:49:25 I am so glad that you shared that. Especially powerful for our college student population. I remember having those mini crises as well in college and yeah, I think it goes back to some of your original quotes about like you can't, you just, you know, can't control a lot of things in life. And um, maybe the time that we spend trying to control them is actually where we get into trouble.

Skylar 00:49:47 Absolutely. Yeah. Which actually makes me think of another relevant Seneca quote, amazing. We worry more in imagination than we do. In reality, I exemplified that. I worried so much about what I would do and how my life would turn out. And it turned out pretty well. So I also worried so much about coming out as transgender. I thought everyone would hate me for it, that I would lose all my friends and that it would ruin my life. Turns out everyone I care about has stuck with me and it has made my life so much better. So to back to the dichotomy of control, whether or not we worry is within our control. So to quote Bob Marley now <laugh>,

Hannah 00:50:35 Don't a little bit of a pivot.

Skylar 00:50:37 Yeah. Rastafarianism, don't worry. Be happy.

Hannah 00:50:42 I love it. Good way to end. Um, yeah. Yes, for sure. And I'm glad that you shared all those things. Uh, do you have any final parting words of wisdom?

Skylar 00:50:55 I think I've said all my quotes.

Hannah 00:50:59 Okay, great. Sounds like we relied actually a lot on the words of wisdoms of others today, which was nice to hear

Skylar 00:51:04 Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. I truly believe that we have all the answers to life. It's just a matter of finding which answers work best for you. Yeah.

Hannah 00:51:14 And it's also good to hear that. Um, when you came out, you had a positive experience from those, uh, who were already in your life. I'm sure that that would be reassuring to a lot of people who are listening.

Skylar 00:51:25 Definitely.

Hannah 00:51:26 Um, great. So as, uh, podcast listeners know, I always provide a set of resources, um, for our listeners. But is there anything else that you wanted to add on Skylar about resources that you have found useful or things that you would recommend?

Skylar 00:51:40 Yeah, like honestly I probably would not have had the courage to come out if, if I didn't find re online resources and there's, there's so many, um, like, like even Reddit, there's, there's an amazing Trans community on Reddit. Um, yeah. There's also like the Trevor project. There's a Trans lifeline, there's a Michigan Trans assistance project. Like yeah, there's, there's so many amazing resources available and, and I hope that any Trans listener will be able to Google them and find them mm-hmm

Hannah 00:52:14 <affirmative>. So you, so you found kind of most of your initial resources through online, it sounds like.

Skylar 00:52:20 Yeah, definitely. Cuz I, I did not have the courage to open up to anyone or, or ask anyone for resources.

Hannah 00:52:26 Yeah. That can be an incredibly hard barrier or step. So I'm glad that you found helpful things online. Okay. Thank you so much, Skylar. I so appreciate you sharing your story and listeners. I hope that this was in some way helpful for you today, either in curating empathy for yourself or for others. So thanks everyone for listening and have a nice day.

Skylar 00:52:45 Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here.

Hannah 00:52:50 Hi, everyone. Just popping on to share some resources. So just a reminder that the national suicide prevention lifeline is 1-800-273-TALK or 1 802-738-2 5 5 can also contact the university of Michigan hospital, psychiatric emergency service 742-936-5900. The LGBT+ plus suicide hotline, uh, of which Skylar was just referring to through the Trevor project is 1-866-4-U-TREVOR. And I'll also include this in the note section of the app. As a reminder here on campus, we have, uh, many counseling resources such as CAPS, um, in the Eisenberg family depression center. And you can also go to university health services as well. So thanks everyone for listening to another one of our episodes and stay tuned for our upcoming ones.