MY DEBATE WITH A YOUTUBER
New version didn't preserve colors. Partially corrected (Me and OP added)
Me : Illusion is just a word. Everything happens in the mind of The One, but for us (parts of The One 'mind') what is felt / experienced matters at the time it is happening, no matter how illusory it is (from the highest possible 'perspective').
OP: Yes Illusion is just a Word but it is a Word to descriused be that which has no real substance to begin with!The Experience of an Illusion is a Delusion! Yes it is true that a Delusion can seem to be experienced however it is still just a Delusion. For the Same Reason an Illusion is Not Real! Because it isn't REAL! No one outside of the Delusional Mind that came up with it would give a tinkers damn about it! Especially a God Thing / Magical Fucking Q Being!
Me: The One is exploring itself through us, and every experience with illusional stuff (some being created by our imagination etc.) is also part of that process. Error of experiencer occures, when we locate those illusional structures to where they have no existence (outside of one's mind). My point is to emphasize the subjective importance of experiences. They themselves are totally real, but assumptions of the exact nature of their cause(s) for example, can be very delusional.
OP: "The One is exploring itself through us, and every experience with illusional stuff (some being created by our imagination etc.) is also part of that process." First of all You are attempting to Define All that is far more then I am. Which given how you want to claim that it is all an Illusion makes me wonder why you trust your own Delusions?It doesn't really matter what Label we wish to put on All that Is. Since doing that is only for Our own Benefit. It's not as if some Thing would care!
Me: "...why you trust your own Delusions?"
I don't have knowledge. I have only speculations. In that light, evidences are obviously not included in my assumptions, nor they are meant to be here. Just a food for thought or food for laughter. Food for thought is what I prefer to create though. "How things are" is my point of interest. "Being right" -urge gets pretty much replaced by that motive, but even that doesn't guarantee anything.
OP: What makes you so Pompous as to THINK what is RIGHT for YOU is RIGHT For Anyone Else?Perhaps Life and Experiences are Personalized to what the Person needs to learn! Which means Everyone would need to find their Own Way!Do You REALLY want to TRUST the ideas of others? Even if you go by what we Scientifically Test you are still TRUSTING the Tests were done correctly and the Result Honestly Reported!
Why do you DANCE on what is Real? When Reality could ALL be an ILLUSION!
Me: First question is totally pointless, as I don't have that kind of intellectual narcissism and blindness in my system.
Trusting scientific or religious authorities is not independent thinking.
I don't care if all is an illusion, as long as I have interaction with it. It's the same thing with free will. As long as there is a sense of free will, I should use it, be it an illusion or not.
OP: You don't care if you are Deluding Yourself? Yet You claimed ""How things are" is my point of interest. "Being right" gets pretty much covered by that motive". IF Everything is an ILLUSION then how is your Interacting with an ILLUSION (A HOLOGRAM) Real? What you are interacting with is a Projection of Light-waves that only Appear solid to the limited senses we have!
How is this showing an interest in HOW THINGS ARE? It is only in How they APPEAR!
How is this BEING RIGHT if it is an ILLUSION?
Me: My "being right" means "I'm right, you are wrong" -type of thinking. Truthfulness is more important for me than that.
This illusion is seemingly very complicated and interesting for me. When parts of that illusion (me for example) interacts with its other parts, illusion is perceived as real. There seems to be laws and partial solidity within that illusion, which makes it seem common to many perceivers. Otherwise it would be pointless (if not impossible) to talk about it with other beings inside this illusion.
OP: You are DANCING Like a Christian around the Subject and using DOUBLE TALK to act as if you are fucking smart when you are Oblivious to what EINSTEIN had said about REALITY!
"Reality is an Illusion albeit a persistent one!"
If You want to act as if NOTHING is Real and it is all an ILLUSION then WHY are you wasting your time & Mine TROLLING You Tube?
Does it bring you Joy to act as if Nothing Really exists yet You seem obsessed with that NOTHING so much you want to CRAM it down everyone's throat?
Me: You can see my motives how ever you need or decide to see them. If you want to waste your time with my comments, it's you own business. You can block me any time with
reason or without.
"Does it bring you Joy"
So you think that our motives in sharing ideas are very different?
OP: If you want to call it an Illusion then you are simply doing WORD GAMES to try and Avoid something. Most Likely Personal Responsibility for Your Actions!
After all if Everything is an Illusion then why should how you treat others matter?
Frankly I have No interest in your level of Self Deception!
Me: Using illusory free will is exactly and precisely taking responsibility of all conscious actions. Not acting according to it would be like saying; "well, I didn't have a choice as everything just happens how it happens out of necessity". You are misreading me over and over again.
OP: FREEWILL is an ILLUSION if Everything we Perceive is an ILLUSION created by the Mind!
Additionally How does FREEWILL factor it with people that are GENETICALLY Predisposed to Certain behaviors or Medical Conditions?
How does FREEWILL fit with ones Parents? Ones GENDER! Ones Sexual Orientation! Ones SKIN COLOR?
There are SO MANY things in life where Freewill simply Doesn't Fucking Exist!
Me: "Freewill simply Doesn't Fucking Exist!"
It may very well be so. Huge amount of variables that affects to our urge to do something, are hidden from us. We "own" that urge, which is then felt as free choice. Pigment and gender are not even in the area of free will illusion. They appear before we have illusion of free will in our mind, in which it appears. I still prefer full usage of it when ever that illusion is experienced.
OP: Again Why are you Dancing around what you really want to say? Either say what is on your mind without the Dance of Bullshit of Shut the Fuck Up!
Your Choice!
Me: I don't spent time "dancing around". I tell what I mean using my limited vocabulary and space.
From your videos, I got the impression of thick-skinned guy. That's not the case. Mocking is fine, as it's not my shame, but I'm not going to consider my every word for minutes in order to not piss someone off. It just doesn't work, so...
"...Shut the Fuck Up!"
After what you said about me, you may not be the one who tells me what to do, but the outcome is exactly what you wish; me shutting up.
LATER:
OP: If Everything is an Illusion WHY do You continue to respond to an Illusion?
Why do You care at all about ANYTHING? If it is all merely an Illusion?
What possible value is there in anything if Nothing is Real?
These are the Essential problems with trying to base a life around the idea brought forward in Quantum Physics of Reality being an Illusion!
We are Experiencing it!
So regardless of if it is Ultimately Real or just based on our Perceptions IT MATTERS TO US HERE AND NOW!
Dipshit!
No editing after this for now
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Me: For me, it doesn't matter if our interpretations are illusory, as experiences are real. This was the point of my very first comment according to your Einstein quote. How many times I have to repeat it until you get what I mean? Experiencing is what we have, and it's totally and profoundly meaningful, so "caring about" follows from that kind of thinking rather naturally don't you think?
OP: Considering I am using LOGIC what I have said is Perfectly reasonable and Provable!
While what you are claiming is Subjective, Delusional and loaded with massive Double Talk!
"Contradict ... Double Talk"
I talk about illusion AND experiencing of it.
One who denies the importance of experiences inside this illusion is STUPID, period. Experiencing is very real (even in the deam state), when(*) notion of illusory nature of everything is very shallow and theoretic assumption in my level. Some may see it more profoundly. Experiences are catalysts for growth and sometimes causes of (temporary) regression. Attitude is the key. So, lets use our sense of free will.
* pitäisi olla 'whereas' (kun sitä vastoin)
"Experiences are catalysts for growth" Only if the Experience itself is REAL! Experiences in a Dream State don't mean a Damn Thing as we don't put any Stock (Belief) in that Reality!
What We Believe helps to shape how we Perceive Reality to be!
Even if a Belief is False that. False Belief will cause a False Perception of Reality!
However IF You maintain the ILLUSION idea then WHAT IS THE FUCKING POINT?
I am really tired of you chasing your tail on the Illusion Bullshit!
Illusion = Not REAL
"I am really tired of you chasing your tail on the Illusion Bullshit!"
Oh yes of course. This is my last message here. Only non stubid one I assume.
"Only non stubid one I assume" WTF?
Are You Attempting to say STUPID and Failing?
OMG!!! I made ä mistake! How can we carry ön now?
You have done it too, so relax. ツ
You are still asking questions, so are you tired or not?
You've been making one Mistake after another from the moment you began!
You have just Finally Admitted to One!
Perhaps this can be a step in further Enlightenment!
How many you have admitted?
An Illusion is an Image that Doesn't EXIST! You Can't Experience that which doesn't Exist!
DRR DRR!
A Dream is Not necessarily an Illusion but another State of Mind! It is Possible that during Dreams we Astral Project and Experience another type of Reality!
If there is anything Gained from an Experience then it can't be an Illusion otherwise the Experience is a Delusion of the Mind!
There also can't be Freewill with Illusions as there is Nothing Tangible about an Illusion as it Doesn't Exist!
Everything that is perceived, exists in some form of energy. Otherwise subject is not perceiving. Parts of the whole sees other parts from limited perspective, which is strongly defined by the structure of the organism through which perceiving happens. We don't see "the true nature" of objects, but filtered (illusory) version, according to the structure of our sensors for example. This all should be quite obvious in your level of intelligence.
Yet Another CONTRADICTION!
"Everything that is perceived, exists in some form of energy. Otherwise subject is not perceiving." VS "The One is exploring itself through us, and every experience with illusional stuff (some being created by our imagination etc.) is also part of that process."
Which is it Numbnuts?
Is Everything Real because it is Energy or is it an ILLUSION?
IF you wish to make this Claim then Explain how you KNOW what things Really Are!
"We don't see "the true nature" of objects"
"Which is it Numbnuts?"
Both. No contradiction there. Do you deny energy, subjective (illusory) point of views and reality of experiencing? Do you think that they can't exist simultaneously?
"...what things Really Are!"
How could I know for God sake? I don't have access to the point of view of The Source available right now - surprisingly.
You seem to have very strong urge to minimize the value of everything I say.
"Do you deny energy, subjective (illusory) point of views and reality of experiencing?" Energy is not Subjective! Our Perception of the form that Energy takes would be limited by the Range of our Senses!
However this doesn't change what the Energy itself is! What is Subjective is out PERCEPTION of it!
"You seem to have very strong urge to minimize the value of everything I say." Because what you are saying is worthless Double Talk! Rooted in IGNORANCE of Reality!
"Energy itself is! What is Subjective is out PERCEPTION of it! ... limited by the Range of our Senses!"
Exactly. You are using my opinions against me again. I find that hilarious and somewhat strange strategy. Language barrier? Well I don't think so.
You claimed the ENERGY is Subjective and I pointed out it is not the Energy but how we perceive it! I have Regularly said there is a RANGE of Human Senses However for US what is within that range is Real.
It is not an Illusion TO US!
You are attempting to act as if things are REALLY not as we perceive them to be but to US how we perceive them is How they are! It doesn't matter if there is More to it then we can Perceive.
"You claimed the ENERGY is Subjective"
That is certainly not what I mean. Everything that is noticed by subject is objective. Skin or eyeball is not the border of subject and objects.
"...as if things are REALLY not as we perceive them..."
Yes, that's how I see it. Although we usually perceive things efficiently enough according to our basic needs.
""...as if things are REALLY not as we perceive them..." Yes, that's how I see it."
Then upon what Basis do you claim to Define them if not on how we perceive them to be? Give me the SCIENTIFIC BASIS for your Claim!
If you have none then what you have is your own DELUSION not what is Empirically Real!
"Give me the SCIENTIFIC BASIS..."
Not really, just food for thought using one example. My right hand is warmer than left. Then I touch the concrete wall with both hands. Wall seems to be cooler to my right hand. Just interaction of processes, patterns meeting patterns without objective reference point.
I actually think that perception of shape is rather objective when visual and touch senses are combined.
"My right hand is warmer than left." How is this Established?
"Then I touch the concrete wall with both hands. Wall seems to be cooler to my right hand." Not to your Left so you are saying your left hand is DEAD? Cold Concrete?
"Just interaction of processes, patterns meeting patterns without objective reference point." Actually what prevents your hand from passing through the wall or anything else is the vibrational rate is different!
The wall is Not an Illusion!
It is Vibrationally Different
"How is this Established?"
Are you fuckin kidding me? You know that there are ways nowadays to measure temperatures.
"Not to your Left.."
How could I say "cooler" if only single sensation of one hand were used? Read again.
"The wall is Not an Illusion! ... It is Vibrationally Different"
Of course. Are you trying to bypass my point?
You really need to educate yourself on how All Matter has a Frequency at which it Vibrates!
Physical objects are Very Real! Your Double Talk is Meaningless.
If someone Shoots you the Bullet will Still make a hole in your body even though you can say, "It isn't Really There!"
Same as two cars colliding still produce the effect of twisted metal, shattered fiberglass & Injured People if not Dead People!
This is called REALITY!
You may want to return to it sometime!
"You really need to educate yourself..."
Show me my mistakes. I want - more than you think - to get rid of every wrong interpretation of reality.
"Your Double Talk is Meaningless."
Your double talk mantra is useless until you show my mistakes precisely, without adding your own interpretations to my messages, like this one: "...you can say, 'It isn't Really There!' ". Open your eyes.
Facepalm!
You are Clearly trying to use Quantum Theory as the basis for some kind of Nihilistic Mindset. Which frankly is rather Insane!
Einstein wasn't trying to say that Life should be LIVED as if is an Illusion but only pointing out the Illusion / Holographic nature of it!
If You honestly think everything is an Illusion WHY do you care about Anything? The Experiences of an Illusion would be Delusional Perceptions! As they are based on that which is False.
Your Entire Premise is Flawed!
"...trying to use Quantum Theory"
I Don't know anything about it.
"Einstein wasn't trying to say that Life should be LIVED as if is an Illusion..."
That's what I'm trying to preach like a lunatic from the beginning, plus bonuses.
"WHY do you care about Anything?"
Read the posts. I don't repeat mysel anymore. It has no effect you know.
All we can base anything on is how We Perceive it to be!
To say that our Perception of what is isn't really what is. Then the Burden of Proving that is on YOU!
You are simply trying to use ideas from Quantum Physics to act as if Nothing is Real. Probably to try and Avoid having to be Personally Responsible for what you have Done!
It is honestly No Different for you to Babble about Illusion and for a Theist to Babble about GOD! Both can't be Proven so honestly What is the Fucking Point?
Burden of proving:
I only tell MY OWN subjective assumptions. They are just a food for thought and speculation as I said before, so I don't try to proof ANYTHING.
Avoiding responsibility:
I already told my view on this one. You should probably read my comments, lolol.
Babble about Illusion:
I don't have interest in illusorizing the world. It all has been correcting your misunderstandings of what I have said. I value reality of experiencing.
"I only tell MY OWN subjective assumptions." FALSE!
You have made CLAIMS regarding life being an Illusion then claiming that the Experiences one has from those Illusions matter. However this is a Contradiction of Terms because an Illusion is a FALSE Impression of things!
Any Experience you have from the stand point of a Delusion in Perception is WORTHLESS!
You fucking Idiot!
"You have made CLAIMS"
No I have NOT. I just don't repeat in every comment that I share only my assumptions, since I made it very clear earlier.
I differentiate plain experience itself (which doesn't yet contain interpretations of any kind) and intellectual urge to understand the experience and its causes for example, which may follow the experience.
"I differentiate plain experience itself (which doesn't yet contain interpretations of any kind) and intellectual urge to understand the experience and its causes for example, which may follow the experience." Holy Double Talk! Are you a Stupid ONA Follower too? Because this is David Myatt Double Talk Bullshit!
"Double Talk!"
This mantra of yours is either empty because you don't have ability or will to see the differences in things I describe as different, or my usage of words sucks many balls at the same time.
Never heard about David Myatt.
It is Funny you claim to never heard of David Myatt (AKA Anton Long) because what you are saying is the same Double talk as is Cause vs Uncaused Cause Dribble!
Seems to be very little info about this fellow, so I can't compare my thoughts with his. I'm not follower of someone. I'm an independent thinker, but it's always very interesting to see people who share similar thoughts.
Your double talk mantra doesn't work until you give precise facts of my mistakes WITHOUT twisting my comments and putting your own thoughts in them. That's the way it is.
Oh now I Twist what you say by Quoting EXACTLY what you said!
LMFAO You are now taking the position of Christians when they are caught in a lie!
Obviously I'm referring to this; "same Double talk as is Cause vs Uncaused Cause...", but how could one notice it.
You are not very objective, but surely you are exited of your agenda of ridiculing, which may, or may not be very successful.
"position of Christians"
Don't try to put me in the box YOU made for me. It's a waste of time.
You Accuse me of Twisting what you said but i quoted EXACTLY what you said and pointed out where You Contradicted Yourself!
This is Not Twisting your Words but only showing where Your Words Contradict!
Your Clinging to Conflicting ideas and acting as if they are somehow not is Double Talk!
Another way of putting it is You Say a lot while still saying NOTHING!
I didn't make any box for you. YOU Put yourself in one by virtue of what you have said!
"You Accuse me of Twisting..."
Because you say that I deny reality, and ask why I even care about it at all.
Conflicting ideas:
My statement of reality of experience itself vs. statement of our illusory interpretations of reality? Do you think that I'm making a mistake by differentiating them?
"YOU Put yourself in one"
I don't treat people as a herd like christians, atheists etc. I take people as extremely complex individuals. That's why I don't respect generalizing and narrowing motive in others.