A Conversation with Harry Wu, Human Rights Advocate
San Francisco, August 12, 1997
"A barrier to freedom is China's machinery for crushing dissent: the more than 1,100 labor reform camps called the laogai. The laogai is not simply a prison system. It is a political tool for maintaining the Communist Party's totalitarian rule. Many of the laogai's 6-8 million inmates are political prisoners."—Harry Wu, 1996
Harry Wu was a political prisoner in China for 19 years, from 1960 to 1979. His personal suffering in the Chinese 'Gulag' or 'Laogai' served his desire to expose cruel injustice. He was a university student in geology. He was born in 1937; Harry’s father was a banker and was denounced as a “capitalist” in 1949. Harry was asked to repudiate his father which he couldn’t do. His family fell on hard times. Harry went to political meetings with other students. He was imprisoned in 1960 for criticizing the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1957.
He emigrated to the United States in 1985 and was an associate at the Hoover Institute in 1988 at Stanford University. He started making documentaries for British, Canadian and American TV about human rights violations such as forced labor and the selling of executed prisoners’ organs. In 1991, he went back to China to document prisoner abuse with a hidden camera. In 1995, Harry was arrested in China but released, thanks to the heavy pressure by some governments and human rights groups.
My student, Dong Fang, introduced me to his sponsor, Harry Wu. Dong fled China for political reasons, first going one dark evening by boat to Taiwan and then to the U.S.A. Dong continues some activist work and writing, while Harry Wu has dedicated his life to being a human rights activist. I first became aware of Harry Wu when some of my students asked me to support a letter writing campaign for Harry in 1995 when he was being held by the Chinese. After studying about Harry, I gladly wrote: “I wish to express my strong concern over the detention of Hongda Harry Wu on June 19, 1995 and his subsequent arrest. I’m writing to the U.S. Congress and to President Clinton, urging that the strongest possible measures be used to secure Mr. Wu’s release. He is, as Amnesty International states, ‘a prisoner of conscience.’” Harry would be under arrest for sixty-six days in 1995, with round-the-clock observance, before being released under massive international pressure. When Harry was arrested as a spy, he said: “The information I was looking for on this trip was not for the intelligence service of the U.S. I wanted information for the media, to expose where there are human rights violations in China at this time. You must understand that the Chinese Government lies all the time, to its own people, to other governments, that there are no political prisoners in China. They lied about me and to me. Communist Party members lie to themselves. Nobody really believes in communism any longer in China. They just believe in power.”
Some of my Chinese students invited me to a discussion of Harry Wu’s book, Troublemaker, in 1996 (Also we referred to Bitter Winds: My Years in China's Gulag: John Wiley and Sons, 1994. We discussed informally our ideas of community organizing. That also served as background for my questions when Harry agreed to sit with me and record this conversation the following year.
I found him to be sensitive, outraged, compelling, perceptive, indignant, straight forward in his push for intelligent activism around human rights’ issues in China, I was aware of campaign to boycott toys made by prison labor. “China is too big a market for a total boycott and some companies are honest. We want to pinpoint the toy companies where we have evidence that they are making their toys with prison labor.”
Since our fist meeting we have become friends and stay in touch. What gift and good luck to have a friend and dedicated collaborator. I truly admire his work. I’m also aware some Chinese, especially from the business community, do not support Harry.
MZC: Recently, we read excerpts from Troublemaker together. How do you consider yourself now as a troublemaker; in what sense do you consider yourself that?
HW: First of all, the title of “troublemaker” was given to me by the Communist government. In my life, I’ve received two titles from the Communist government. The first one is so-called "counterrevolutionary rightist." This was in 1957 because my opinion was not acceptable to them: I disagreed with the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I criticized a Communist government for shooting common people who were considered second-class citizens. It seemed to me that this violated international law. I was told that I didn't know about things so naturally I disagreed. The government [stopped using] “counterrevolutionary” in 1979.
Then in '95 they arrested me; in my interrogation by the chief of police, I said that I had a legal passport and that I didn't violate my visa. I didn't go into China. I was on the border. They took me in. I did no activities inside China that violated their law. If they said, well it's for a couple of years ago, then that's another story. So when they arrested me on the border, I said: According to your law, [show] me your warrant. Give me the reason. Otherwise, you can't arrest me. Because this is your law, right?
And secondly I said, there's an agreement between the U.S.A. and China. I'm an American citizen. Within forty-eight hours, you have to notify my consulate. I'm not going to talk to you before I talk to my consulate. This is international law. So I refused to agree to any interrogation. They asked me my name. Nothing. Your address? No. Nothing.
I said I want to call my embassy. And there's my partner, an American female—she also was detained for no reason at all. After about five days, finally, the senior police said, “Harry, I'll be honest with you, OK? Don't make trouble for me. I can do nothing about that. You know. I have heard from the top, from the chief, and you have to know you have the label of 'troublemaker.' I have heard from Beijing and you are the number one troublemaker.”
So I think this is an accomplishment because we do have to make some trouble for this evil part of the regime. Yes, many, many people, especially the Chinese, stand up, become straight, join with me. We fight together; we make trouble for this Communist regime. And then, we try and have a good future.
MZC: Were you frightened to be arrested again in 1995 and then being sentenced to fifteen years in prison? Did you feel support from the American and international community?
HW: I wasn’t afraid at all. I know this may sound surprising, but I wasn’t. I know these people all too well. I had more than nineteen years of prison life, so I blocked out the memories, didn’t think about it. If I dwell on the past I am weak. Of course, I didn’t want to lose my freedom, but I was calm.
I felt support both from the international and American communities. I was made an American citizen in 1994. Honestly I didn’t feel a part of the United States. I felt somewhat an outsider. But after being released from China, after sixty-six days, I felt that the people of the United States did care for me. When I returned many put up yellow ribbons and that felt very good. They cared about my freedom, my liberty to be who I am.
MZC: Do you feel part of the Chinese character is very reluctant to be a troublemaker? They tend to be politically passive—I'm talking about Chinese from Taiwan and from China—who tend to want not to get involved. Do you think that's changing, especially with younger people?
HW: Yes, you're talking about Chinese tradition. Even when I was young, my father always warned me, don't get involved with politics. Just go ahead, just study, and earn your degree and earn money. You set up a living. This is your life. Don't involve yourself with politics. Because in China, all the time, not only during the Communist regime, politics are dangerous, very dirty. That's why the people are always thinking about not getting involved so they don't get into trouble.
But, we do have to make some trouble for what is evil and hurtful to human dignity and natural rights. Let's consider: what is the trouble I made? First of all I exposed the Chinese gulag system, laogai system. Should we turn a blind eye? Should we forget about it? Should we say, we don't know about it? [Though] I was able to survive from the prison system, should I say, Well, OK, that's over? I won't involve myself in politics. To say this is dishonest. So, I exposed it, because this is a dark area in the system.
Today we were talking about Tienanmen, about the Tibetan Repression. Talking about religious suppression—if you want to expose the concentration camp system, under the Hitler Nazi system, if you want to expose the gulag system under Stalin's regime, of course you're going to make trouble.
They don't want you to talk about it, but this is something we have to think about. How many people are unjustly held in China’s prison system? Should we turn a blind eye and say, let's do business together because all the people are doing well, and China eventually will get into a democratic society. I hope so. I really wish for a democracy. But, we have no right to turn our back on innocent people. Even today we must in our own [US] democracy, remember things from fifty years ago. You know that there were concentration camps then, but today we overlook that there is a there is today a concentration camp system in China.
If a nation turns a blind eye on its past, and doesn't look at history, then it can never have a good future. Because the Communist government is responsible for a type of holocaust in China, they don't want me to talk about it. They say OK, forget it because they don't want to reveal themselves, their rule of the country, as the power center. Actually they're still doing unjust, inhuman things. That's why I make trouble for them.
MZC: Yes. Do you feel some of the practices you exposed in your book; for example, selling of human organs of executed prisoners, still go on?
HW: In 1996, there, according to Amnesty International, there were 4367 executions [in China]. Organ transplants are an indication of a civilized society. It means, we are able, using our technology, to [donate] our organs for the benefit of other people. I attach a small card to my driver's license that says that I'm going to donate all my organs for the welfare of other people. But to forcibly take and sell the organs of executed prisoners? What is that about? Most Chinese don't understand the concept of organ donation. They want to die with their whole body intact; [that is why] many people today in China don't accept cremation. But we have to get together in a civilized society and have a positive relation to organs.
But, if someone like the Indian or Filipino, sell their organs just to get money, or for food, we see it as a kind of a human tragedy. If someone in Colombia or Mexico murders to get an organ for a millionaire, I think everybody sees this as evil. But today the problem in China is what? Go about your own business, and just mind your own affairs, even if executed prisoners' organs are being sold.
The government, according to their political purpose, the so-called “revolutionary concept,” of the legal system in China, is service for Communist party. This is not the law [of] a democratic society. Just like the law under Hitler, the law under Stalin, its purpose is a political purpose. It was about control and power. In the Chinese criminal court, there are 16 crimes that carry the death sentence; nine of them are political.
The government in accordance with Communist law, arrests the people, prosecutes them, and sentences them to death: everybody knows that in this judicial procedure, nobody has a fair trial. The Communist government just says we sentence such and such to death, according to political necessity. The government arranges the execution, and then claims the right to harvest the organs after the death of prisoners. And lastly the hospital is owned by the Chinese government—the hospital and public security and the court cooperate together to remove the organ.
MZC: There's no international body trying to work some type of a law with that? Not yet?
HW: Not yet, but I think there’s more awareness. The government sells your organ in the international market, and that's in recognized international reports. 75 percent [of the world’s executions] today happen in China. Every year, several thousand. We don't know exactly. China never gives out that data.
When they sell organs to [people from] a foreign country, the central argument that we are using the waste. Human body becomes a waste? What are you talking about? What is the concept? Second [argument], oh, these people were bad [criminals]. They paid back the damage. What are you talking about? My organ paid back my damage?
MZC: They are taking organs from the political prisoner?
HW: Of course. [Is this really] a pay back to society? If this is really something like that, why do you sell them to foreigners? That's why I argue with the Chinese Communist, the so-called ‘nationalists.’ They all say China is great; we are helping the Chinese.
China has a lot of diseased patients. Why are you holding back this organ from our Chinese citizens? Why do you sell to the foreigners? Money. Money. This is why, behind the wall, a government is selling human organs. If I murder someone for an organ, for the purpose for making this money, this is crime, this is evil. And the government is doing that today. Yeah. I make trouble for them.
The real troublemaker in this is the Communist Party. They really make big trouble for their own people. They make trouble to me. Deprive my freedom for twenty years. They killed my parents, my mother, and millions of Chinese. They are the real troublemakers. Not me. But, I am honored, to have the title of a “troublemaker” with the Communist regime. We Chinese need the troublemaker to dare to speak out, dare to say no.
MZC: Forced abortions are still going on?
HW: Oh yeah, oh yeah. You can't imagine; there's a government program of 14 million abortion cases every year. 14 million. This is a very conservative number. Actually there's about twenty million. If, we just say that ten percent are forced, then a million are forced. Actually, so many of them are forced. That is oppression.
MZC: I think it's interesting you use laogai; you keep the Chinese name, because that whole system is so important to the government?
HW: Yeah. So the laogai is the most salient place for concentrated human rights’ abuses. Now some people ask me what are you doing? What is the purpose of the Foundation? I want to see the word laogai appear in every dictionary in every language, in every country. What we do know is that before 1974, we didn't have "gulag" as a word. Today “gulag” is a well-known word, and, we acknowledge the past Soviet Union political violence. Laogai deserves that kind of exposure. [The word] should be there for all to see.
MZC: “Concentration camp” is part of our vocabulary now.
HW: Yeah. You see. Why are the Chinese so mad about me? Because I'm talking about the laogai. In December 1994, the People's Congress passed a resolution to stop using the term of laogai because many of us activists are talking about laogai, laogai, laogai. It's infamous because we’re raising consciousness in the world community.
In my interrogation in 1995, the secret police asked me why I link together laogai and gulag? Isn’t that too much? He showed me my book. Why do you link them together? Because you know gulag is infamous. It’s really terrible. I said well, there's no difference. In the early 1950s, a gulag expert, arranged by Stalin came to China and helped set up Chinese laogai. Do you deny that? He cannot deny it. The [Congress] removed the word because they hate it.
Probably 20 to 30 percent of the people in China either themselves, or their parents, or their relatives, or their neighbor or friends, went to laogai. A very large number. The Communist government cannot survive without the laogai. They need it.
When I went to Geneva to talk to the International Red Cross, I said don't repeat your 1930’s mistake. Hitler invited you to see a model concentration camp. Then you wrote a report, saying well, not so bad, not so good. Actually you became a part of their propaganda. They cheated you and you can be cheated like that in China.
MZC: So they can't be just shown one model camp that they can gloss over, with the one thousand they have.
HW: Right. That’s right. Now, the other point I will share with you today in 1997 is to go back sixty years.
Today is 1937. German concentration camps. Are you interested? 1937…Yeah? Many countries blocked the Jewish from escaping. Right? I remember the whole ship loaded with the refugees to go to Louisiana; even Americans at that time turned them back. They didn’t know the horror yet. Right? 60 years ago.
How we can upgrade our information? We are not going to say we're 100 percent correct.
But, we are collecting information from different sources; that's why I go back to China. That's why I interviewed many survivors. For example, the priests (former prisoners in China). I went to Los Gatos to interview them. To one I asked how many years? Thirty years. Where you have been? Oh, in this area. There're so many labor camp. (clears throat) I spent nineteen-twenty years in prisons, camps; I've been in twelve camps. But I don't know where else there are other camps. I don't know in the east, that's why we interview the people. That is the resource. See my story in Bitter Winds or Troublemaker.
It was just a small brick, my being an activist, my organizing. I’m a small part in the effort that will bring more human rights to China.
MZC: What's your feeling about the American policy now? It seems like in our L.A. area, China's the big golden calf today. You know it's the future market.
HW: Today's American policy is to appease, same as the British appeasement policy in 1938. Short term, looking for money. This isn’t with everybody, but many are just looking for a promising market, looking for benefit.
I'm very sad Clinton says he admires Kennedy. He wanted to do something like Kennedy. What? For China, he's just looking for money, looking for self-interest. I don’t see his courage in speaking against human rights. Yes, sometimes, he speaks out against abuse of human rights, but not as called for by the abuses going on in China.
MZC: We were talking about the possibility of social action, of a boycott against some countries, companies that receive prison-made products.
HW: Particularly for America, it is illegal because since 1930, [there is] a law to not allow in any kind of products made or processed by forced labor. This is not only a human rights issue, it is a legal one. They violate the law.
We are thinking about boycotting Christmas decoration and toys also made by forced labor this coming Christmas. First of all Christmas is a time to deliver our sympathy, our kindness, our love, to other people. When you buy toys that are made by China, or the Christmas decoration made by China, and, if you're thinking they are made by forced labor; then there's a possible involvement of abuses of human rights. Not all Chinese products, of course, are made by forced labor. But when we find that some of the toys/Christmas decorations being sold now by Wal-Mart, let’s boycott Wal-Mart until it changes to non-forced-labor products.
When we are thinking about other people, sympathizing with people with sickness and delivering our love, we should now be also thinking about human rights abuses in China. OK? Thinking about the human beings in China. The religious persecution in China is terrible. You know very well how Cardinal Ignatius Kung suffered 30 years in prison for refusing to renounce his religious conviction. He's a brave survivor of the laogai.
MZC: I see you are calling for active expressions of solidarity with the men and women who are still in prison and subjected to forced labor.
HW: K-Mart imported seventy-six tons [of products] made by PLA. So we say kick the PLA out of the United States. Please let's be conscious of what we're doing. If we show the evidence, act on it.
MZC: I’d like to end by changing the tone a bit and asking you a more personal question. One of the students, who is Chinese and a Buddhist monk, asked me, if I would ask you about what gave you strength when you were in prison. He said it must have been heartbreaking to be so lonely, to be isolated. We talked about the story when you were beaten and your fellow prisoners caught a frog, cooked it and made a soup and brought you back to health.
This monk has also experienced some very terrible scenes in his native Burma. He wondered if you found any kindness, which helped you get through that time? And what is it from your experience that makes you so sympathetic and compassionate towards the prisoners that still are in that system?
HW: That is why I talk about the most important value and dignity in human beings, in human lives is humanity in its best sense of the word, being civil, being considerate, and being what we can’t always define but which we respond to. I like the word “kindness” also. You’re being kind even if you get no reward in return. That’s being human. Okay? (Harry seems fatigued at this point in the conversation, but his face is brightly animated)
We were talking about politics, talking about revolution. Talking about injustice. This can make you feel overburdened and out of balance. You have to draw from the best within humanity, its ability to love I would say. Beyond that abuse of human dignity is humanity waiting to emerge. It is natural for human beings to be kind in my opinion. In my book, there's another story when a young lady came to feed me on a regular basis. She never thought about getting some reward or how generous she was. And, she didn't think, maybe in the future we'll become millionaires or famous. Nothing. Just a selfless response to me, at the time, a human being living under horrific conditions in prison.
I was a political prisoner, nobody knows about me. There's no future in it—my family totally got rid of me so they wouldn’t be “guilty by association.” But this beautiful woman still was like my sister coming to see me. Why? Why? All the time I was in the cell, I really want to know the meaning why? I said this was the Buddha or Jesus coming to me for free, just for love. What's happening? I think it is Humanity—a human being's natural contact and feeling empathy towards another in need. I think this wanting to be good, to express natural human goodness is the fundamental element to life, you know. That’s the abiding background to my activist work, which is tough and critical, very activist, calling, along with many others, for China to respect the human rights of others.
I think that when we're talking about religious prosecution, talking about minorities who are persecuted, talking about forced separations due to being political prisoners, about organizing activities and student and workers’ movements; we need to remember the human heart and its goodness, joy and humor. That makes us stronger and supported for the fight against injustice in the world
MZC: Thank you, Harry. Many blessings for your loving service to China and to all of us.