Transcript of interview with Robert Casteels (conducted by Gavin Lee), 2 April 2017, 4 pm, at his residence
Robert is a Singapore-based composer, conductor, educator and pianist. Born in Belgium, he moved to Singapore in 1995 and obtained permanent residency in Singapore in 1996. Robert subsequently obtained Singapore citizenship in 2007. Prior to living in Singapore, Robert spent his time in Brussels working as a conductor of contemporary music and as freelance composer but soon decided to focus on conducting. Upon arriving to Singapore, Robert felt that Singapore provided him the opportunity to explore music of diverse genres, more so than Belgium. Robert deeply respects the music of Western composers like Bach, Debussy, Ravel and Bartók. However, he is also extremely fascinated by the instruments and music of Asian countries and has incorporated instruments such as the đàn bầu from Vietnam, the gamelan, and Chinese instruments. He feels that by considering the timbre of the instruments, it is possible to successfully combine instruments of different countries together. Additionally, Robert thinks that if there is research and knowledge of the ethnic culture and the instrument, as well as an explanation of the compositional process, he can avoid neo-colonialism. Robert pays extra attention to introducing contemporary works before they are performed, as the introduction helps the listener to better understand the thought process behind the composition of the piece and therefore better appreciate the music. Robert is surprised that there are not more Singaporeans using Asian music and culture in their works, as Singapore is a diverse nation of many ethnicities. However, Robert notes that younger composers these days are increasingly tapping on Asian music and culture in their compositions and have reached a level of comfort in doing so. On the effect of globalization on music, Robert feels that social media has had a positive impact on the way music is listened to, making it very convenient for people to listen to a diverse range of music. However, he feels that a negative consequence of globalization is the dilution of individual national identity. On the other hand, globalization has led to the proliferation of the individual musical languages of today’s composers.
“So, here in Singapore, I found myself incredibly free because I could do a concert of early music, then I do something with Gamelan, then I do a piece that includes in the program one Karlheinz Stockhausen composition and I think that there wasn’t a pigeon-hole blanket like in Europe.”
“And so that’s how I start to combine these instruments – absolutely not because I think it was politically correct, but I thought that I had new inspiration, new ways of expressing that, and that’s how.”
“So that’s why I can combine these instruments, which sometimes startle the audience or the players, but for me I didn’t think I was experimenting. For me it was just logic – I know that instrument “A” can do this; it fits in the piece, so I just bring this instrument in because it exists in Singapore.”
“So that’s how I composed a number of pieces, what, sometimes they are labelled as “fusion music.” And Elegy to the men you don’t meet ev’ryday is an example of fusion music between Chinese and Western music. And L’(autre) fille aux cheveux de Bali is an example of that with some Gamelan and also had a few Western and a few Chinese instruments.”
“Then in Singapore, on one hand there is energy, and there are sometimes more financial possibilities than in old Europe, but the level of the musicians is not the same.”
“So, those made me think also, “It’s not only the player, but who is going to listen to this?” I never thought about that when I was doing avant-garde music, and then when people were listening, they thought that it was very weird, very avant-garde-like.”
“I can’t start arguing that, “You know, you should really hear real avant-garde,” because that’s irrelevant for the listener. He lives somewhere in the ecosystem.”
“So, Sonata Profana was, I think a clever way to solve the problem of unplayable, avant-garde music. I wanted to do polyrhythms without writing very complex rhythms. So I had a massive orchestra: I divided it into three with three conductors.”
“About my Gamelan music at that time, I’ve had some pretty negative reviews, really that it’s nonsense, that it’s horrible, it’s meaningless. So that’s fine, it makes me smile.”
“So sometimes I have pieces that, that if you just listen to them, it’s hard, certainly the first time. But when you see it and you have this sound distributed in the space, and a little introduction, it makes the listening experience completely different.”
“I have learned to be very careful with my introductions, whether they are verbal, or whether they are written. For the same piece, exactly the same piece, if I speak about the structure and the proportions and some symbolism, people tend to react after they listen.”
“So it is very important, I have learned to in a way be emotional – tell the people what it is about emotionally and disregard totally, any informed vocabulary, especially PhD jargon. I don’t like academic proper terminology, because then it creates an obstacle for the listener.”
“For Sonata Profana, it is about regeneration and about nature, and so for that particular piece, the poem of Professor Thumboo was printed in the program. But then I felt I had to explain to the audience, because honestly they wouldn’t be able to make out, is that here and there, there is a solo of an instrument that is based on a verse of the poem.”
“But Debussy, Ravel and Bartok, it has actually never really changed already when I was an adolescent. These were for me the “half-Gods;” Johann Sebastian Bach being “God.” And I still have a very strong affinity with the music of Bach.”
“And then I explained, it works – you understandably are skeptical because when you see a vibraphone, by connection, by performance to certain audio and works, it becomes a part of a certain tradition.”
“So I totally understand that intellectually that clashes, because how do we expect the uninformed listener to make connections? And why it works? Because I stripped these instruments from their cultural origin, and so that becomes a metallophone, it can do this.”
“And then, sometimes I think how come it is so obvious, that I don’t understand why there are not more Singaporean composers that are doing this. But, I notice now that the younger generation – for them it’s normal.”
“The musician, once he accepts to do a job, to do a concert and is playing the part, it also goes quicker for him. And then he has more time than the audience because he has the whole rehearsal process to get used to. But he already comes with a positive mind, unless he would really only do it for money.”
“And so then they listen and they find my music Asian. So I am really startled because I’m just thinking that I am myself. I’m not trying to relate to a certain culture.”
“And then of course, I cannot imagine how it would have been if I would have stayed in Europe and developed as a composer in Europe. It doesn’t mean that I would not have done fusion music here and there, but for sure, it would have been different from here in Singapore.”
“It’s true that in Singapore, globalization is part of the fabric. And if you don’t live here as an expatriate, if you live here like a person in the local community, and have to deal, and want to deal with the racial diversity in Singapore, then you also breathe and eat that racial diversity.”
“At the same time, globalization means that at the click of a mouse, I can literally listen to such a diverse range of music from Patagonia [region in South America] to Alaska if I just know where to find it. But it is also because it is so easy to listen that I think sometimes it is also just “Listen and go.””
“But, still, when I go to a concert of new music in Singapore, or I go to a concert of new music in London or not, it’s not as globalized as one would think.”
“If everything would sound the same everywhere, I think that’s terrible. It’s like losing biodiversity, the equivalent of losing species of plants and animals.”
“The younger generation in Singapore, they have reached a level of comfort in – should I say appropriating or not – or just using the vocabulary of the different cultures you have here. It’s not a big deal anymore.”
“Yes, and it’s not always taking an instrument out of the culture, but also a culture sensitivity, or a story or a theme. They have in that respect, I think the post-colonial hangover, I think, is truly over.”
“So, first of all, the đàn bầu is a Vietnamese national instrument. The equivalent doesn’t exist in another Asian culture, whereas all the other instruments, you can see they are from China.”
“And for the đàn bầu, I flew to Ho Chi Minh to work with a đàn bầu player six, eight months before, to really know the instrument. Because I am thinking, when a đàn bầu player receives this score, if it’s badly written, it is bad to think intuitively what this neo-colonial vibe, nonsense is.”
“That, I would say that I do my research, even if it would be for bass clarinet, and I don’t know enough, I would do my homework and know what can the bass clarinet do; likewise what can the đàn bầu do.”
“So, point number two, I win it from it, but I think they also win from it. That’s my hope. That was the same with Indian and with Gamelan, I never used the instrument in such a way that it’s offensive in the culture.”
“So I’m careful because an instrument is also a potent symbol, like in gamelan, you don’t step over an instrument. You don’t, and the way you arrange the instruments is important. I actually respect that, so the people who then watch would not be offended.”
“I have the hope – maybe it’s the arrogance – but the hope to think that that culture also wins something out of it. It’s clear for me that I want to respect, and I work to know so that I wouldn’t provoke, or disrespect by ignorance.”
“And I convey a message, so that I can dispel in advance a possible feeling of accusation of neo-colonialist recuperation.”
“I would, for a young composer, as you also acquire the technique you acquire the experience, how to put people together, how the whole piece looks, because you can compose and it stays in your drawers at home. You also progressively find your voice, and the syntax and the grammar that goes with the voice, the vocabulary that you are developing.”
“Unconvinced I always find a solution in other art forms, not when I am stuck in my own composition – little musical world.”
“And, when you are stuck or when you are stung by another tradition, the solution is then to think, to go and analyze, to do research, to know so that you – and especially I think nowadays there is no excuse of not researching before you are – either you are quoting, or you are taking an art form, or you are taking a way of thinking – you have to know what it is really. So that you avoid perverting, you avoid recuperating something in another direction that goes against where it comes from.”
“So there must be knowledge. It’s fair to the culture and it also makes you think, be more solid, be more focussed, and it will also protect yourself.”
“Like in any time and place, a society where there is no new music, or a society where the expression of art forms are only the art forms of the past is a society that is dying out.”
“And so, for the listener, rather than trying to understand, and analyze – I think for that there are musicologists to do that very well, and historians, and even they need some distance – the important thing is just to be open-minded, to let it come over you, and to experience it.”
“And enjoy it, and sometimes not enjoy it, but not be inhibited by notions that there has to be a whole body of knowledge to appreciate that. And that it is normal that it's startling, it has always been like that and it will always be like that.”
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