Link here to Togo's reply to the 5 point "evidence" here
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn You need to present strong evidence as to why when I have a can of coke and a pepsi in front of me I cannot consciously and freely choose whichever can I want. And remember even Libet thought there may be such a thing as a conscious veto before an action is taken.
It has been shown that there is an unconscious physical activity
That there is "unconscious physical activity" is not evidence against my ability to consciously choose whichever drink I want.
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, neurons and networks, that process information based on input and memory which is reflected in conscious form when a conscious response is required. Gazzaniga, Hallett, Delgado, etc.
Of course neurons and networks cause conscious deliberation and conscious deliberation alters brain networks and the behaviour of neurons. This does not negate my ability to consciously choose whatever I want.
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And that it's this underlying activity that determines 'your' conscious behaviour, 'your' selection of Coke or Pepsi,
What is wrong with - brain causes conscious deliberation, conscious deliberation causes changes in brain, brain causes conscious deliberation, etc etc.
Where is your evidence, or even the logical step, that because underlying activity is a factor in the choices I make, conscious deliberation is not a factor? Can't they both be factors that cause behaviour?
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As 'you' only experience the conscious report, this conscious/unconscious divide gives 'you' an illusion of conscious agency.
You say this but where is the evidence that conscious deliberation is just a "report". What I seem to experience is my own conscious involvement in the choices I make.
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Originally Posted by penn You say this but where is the evidence that conscious deliberation is just a "report". What I seem to experience is my own conscious involvement in the choices I make.
Not only a report, but also a reflection of the condition of the brain, its information content and physical connections.
Conscious thought as a 'report'
Experiments on split-brain patients reveal how readily the left brain interpreter can make up stories and beliefs. In one experiment, for example, when the word walk was presented only to the right side of a patient’s brain, he got up and started walking. When he was asked why he did this, the left brain (where language is stored and where the word walk was not presented) quickly created a reason for the action: “I wanted to go get a Coke.”
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn You say this but where is the evidence that conscious deliberation is just a "report". What I seem to experience is my own conscious involvement in the choices I make.
Not only a report, but also a reflection of the condition of the brain, its information content and physical connections.
Conscious thought as a 'report'
Experiments on split-brain patients reveal how readily the left brain interpreter can make up stories and beliefs. In one experiment, for example, when the word walk was presented only to the right side of a patient’s brain, he got up and started walking. When he was asked why he did this, the left brain (where language is stored and where the word walk was not presented) quickly created a reason for the action: “I wanted to go get a Coke.”
How is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report? The patient never chose to get a coke so it's not a report of any underlying activity of someone unconsciously choosing to get a coke.
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When patients with this disorder are asked about their arm and why they can’t move it, they will say “It’s not mine” or “I just don’t feel like moving it”—reasonable conclusions, given the input that the left-hemisphere interpreter is receiving.''
Again explain how this is evidence that conscious deliberation is a report? You can't just paste material and expect others to try and work out how you got to your conclusion.
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In 1966, Delgado asserted that his experiments' support the distasteful conclusion that motion, emotion and behavior can be directed by electrical forces, and that humans can be controlled like robots by push buttons.
So what? He's overriding the normal operation of the brain. Why is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report?
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT Not only a report, but also a reflection of the condition of the brain, its information content and physical connections.
Conscious thought as a 'report'
Experiments on split-brain patients reveal how readily the left brain interpreter can make up stories and beliefs. In one experiment, for example, when the word walk was presented only to the right side of a patient’s brain, he got up and started walking. When he was asked why he did this, the left brain (where language is stored and where the word walk was not presented) quickly created a reason for the action: “I wanted to go get a Coke.”
How is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report? The patient never chose to get a coke so it's not a report of any underlying activity of someone unconsciously choosing to get a coke.
Where do you think the idea to get a coke came from?
Why do you think that it wasn't a choice?
Where dso you think your desire to get a drink comes from?
Where do you think your will to get a drink comes from?
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Originally Posted by penn Again explain how this is evidence that conscious deliberation is a report? You can't just paste material and expect others to try and work out how you got to your conclusion.
The information is all there, Gazzaniga outlines the nature of the left hemisphere narrator quite well.
It's nothing too difficult. The brain is provided with input, which its neural systems process and form a conscious representation of that information, perception...including your desire for a drink and the conscious will to get yourself a drink, which is selected from what is available, and based on past experience, memory and current input, physical condition, signals from organs and glands, etc. Information processing conscious and unconscious...the bulk of the activity being unconscious.
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Originally Posted by penn So what? He's overriding the normal operation of the brain.
No, he is not. What he is overiding is the means of input. Instead of input entering the system via the senses, the system is stimulated directly.
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Originally Posted by penn Why is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report?
This provides insight into how the system functions, and insight into the source of conscious will and conscious behaviour.
It shows that conscious will is not paramount, it is not 'free' - conscious will comes at the end of a cognitive process, whether the behaviour is stimulated 'naturally' by input via senses, or 'unnaturally' via direct stimulation of neural structures.
Either way, conscious will is not the driver of the show. That is the point.
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn How is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report? The patient never chose to get a coke so it's not a report of any underlying activity of someone unconsciously choosing to get a coke.
Where do you think the idea to get a coke came from?
Why do you think that it wasn't a choice?
Where dso you think your desire to get a drink comes from?
Where do you think your will to get a drink comes from?
Hold on, you said the patient was manipulated into walking. When asked why he "quickly created a reason for the action: “I wanted to go get a Coke."
How is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report? The patient neither made a choice nor deliberating over anything. You are just posting stuff and hoping some of it will hit the target.
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It's nothing too difficult. The brain is provided with input.....
The difficulty is trying to figure out how you think this experiment leads to the conclusion you claim, that conscious deliberation is a report. Explain how you get from A - B because I don't see it and if you can't make it clear it is perhaps because you don't fully understand the leap either.
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No, he is not. What he is overiding is the means of input. Instead of input entering the system via the senses, the system is stimulated directly.
So he's overriding the means of input? Again why is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report?
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This provides insight into how the system functions, and insight into the source of conscious will and conscious behaviour.
It shows that conscious will is not paramount, it is not 'free' - conscious will comes at the end of a cognitive process, whether the behaviour is stimulated 'naturally' by input via senses, or 'unnaturally' via direct stimulation of neural structures.
Either way, conscious will is not the driver of the show. That is the point.
Please explain how pumping electricity into the brain leads you to the conclusion that conscious deliberation is a report?
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT Where do you think the idea to get a coke came from?
Why do you think that it wasn't a choice?
Where dso you think your desire to get a drink comes from?
Where do you think your will to get a drink comes from?
Hold on, you said the patient was manipulated into walking. When asked why he "quickly created a reason for the action: “I wanted to go get a Coke."
Err, where did I say the patient was ''manipulated'' into walking?
Penn. please get it right...input is not 'manipulation'
Please read the article again.
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Originally Posted by penn How is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report? The patient neither made a choice nor deliberating over anything.
Penn, consciouness itself is a report of the information the brain has gathered from its environment and filtered through various systems before conscious perception of that information is formed. Conscious deliberation is one aspect of that activity. Without the underling neural processing, there is no 'conscious deliberation'
If the the conections are not happening, there is no 'conscious deiberation'
If the connections are faulty, 'conscious deliberation' is muddled or irrational.
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Originally Posted by penn You are just posting stuff and hoping some of it will hit the target.
The irony is too much for me.
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Originally Posted by penn The difficulty is trying to figure out how you think this experiment leads to the conclusion you claim, that conscious deliberation is a report. Explain how you get from A - B because I don't see it and if you can't make it clear it is perhaps because you don't fully understand the leap either.
What part of ''rather than conscious will it is the physical condition, the wiring input and memory content of fhe brain that governs conscious behaviour'' do you not understand?
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Originally Posted by penn So he's overriding the means of input? Again why is this evidence that conscious deliberation is a report?
Please explain how pumping electricity into the brain leads you to the conclusion that conscious deliberation is a report
Delgado may have been overiding the senses, but Gazzaniga was not, but either way, how can any form of conscious perception and behaviour exist without the preceding input? It is all information processing and report.
Input precedes conscious perception of the input. That is how physics works, that is how the brain functions.
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Originally Posted by DBT Without the underling neural processing, there is no 'conscious deliberation'
If the the conections are not happening, there is no 'conscious deiberation'
If the connections are faulty, 'conscious deliberation' is muddled or irrational.
This is your evidence that conscious deliberation is a report??
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT Without the underling neural processing, there is no 'conscious deliberation'
If the the conections are not happening, there is no 'conscious deiberation'
If the connections are faulty, 'conscious deliberation' is muddled or irrational.
This is your evidence that conscious deliberation is a report??
You ignore the studies, the evidence, and focus on the outline? Nice one penn.
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn This is your evidence that conscious deliberation is a report??
You ignore the studies, the evidence, and focus on the outline? Nice one penn.
The fact that you cannot explain how the the articles and studies show how conscious deliberation is a report, implies you don't actually know how they show it is a report.
You expect other people to figure out how you get to your conclusions, and when anyone asks for clarification more articles appear. Maybe in your own head you have some vague idea how the articles backup your claims but you cannot express it.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT You ignore the studies, the evidence, and focus on the outline? Nice one penn.
The fact that you cannot explain how the the articles and studies show how conscious deliberation is a report, implies you don't actually know how they show it is a report.
For heavens sake penn, what do you think conscious perception is based on? What do you think thoughts and feeings are based on?
Does it all just pop out of a vaccum? Is consciousness based on nothing at all?
What have I been saying about the cognitive events that provide information for conscious perception, thought, etc, and precede consciousness formation itself?
That interaction of input and memory is what is being presented in the form of conscious perception, that is the information that is being 'reported' to perception.
It's a no brainer.
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Originally Posted by DBT Does it all just pop out of a vaccum? Is consciousness based on nothing at all?
Why do you keep asking this? I and other posters have countless times agreed that conscious deliberation does not pop out of a vacuum, and have agreed that without memory or any self awareness or awareness of the world (input) there would be no ability to deliberate because there would be nothing to deliberate about. NO ONE DISAGREES ON THIS VERY OBVIOUS POINT. But you then conclude from this that conscious deliberation is a report and also think it must be self-explanatory why it must be a report, when it is not. I don't think you can actually explain why conscious deliberation is a report, which is why you post so many articles and hope they explain it for you.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT Does it all just pop out of a vaccum? Is consciousness based on nothing at all?
Why do you keep asking this?
To get an answer from you? To get some idea of what you think 'free will' is in terms of ''consciousness'' and neural activity?
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Originally Posted by penn I and other posters have countless times agreed that conscious deliberation does not pop out of a vacuum, and have agreed that without memory or any self awareness or awareness of the world (input) there would be no ability to deliberate because there would be nothing to deliberate about. NO ONE DISAGREES ON THIS VERY OBVIOUS POINT.
Don't bring ''other posters'' into it, penn, they can speak for themselves. The rest is all good and fine, but then, typically, you contradict yourself every time you imply that 'your' conscious decisions have a degree of autonomy from the underlying neural activity. They do not. Nor do I remember you ever giving a reasonable description of free will, only examples of conscious behaviour - ''I can choose too get a coke''
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Originally Posted by penn But you then conclude from this that conscious deliberation is a report and also think it must be self-explanatory why it must be a report, when it is not. I don't think you can actually explain why conscious deliberation is a report, which is why you post so many articles and hope they explain it for you.
What is a ''report'', if not a presentation of information?
What does the brain do, if not generate, form or present some of its information (input and memory), in conscious form?
It's a no brainer, penn.
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Originally Posted by DBT This is very simple;
3) Conscious will, an expression of the underlying neural activity of infomation processing, has no independant ability to choose.
Of course it is very simple to say conscious deliberation is a report or an expression of underlying activity but you haven't yet explained how you got to this conclusion from the evidence you have posted. Don't keep saying it's obvious, because clearly your inability to explain why it is obvious implies this is not the case.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT This is very simple;
3) Conscious will, an expression of the underlying neural activity of infomation processing, has no independant ability to choose.
Of course it is very simple to say conscious deliberation is a report or an expression of underlying activity but you haven't yet explained how you got to this conclusion from the evidence you have posted. Don't keep saying it's obvious, because clearly your inability to explain why it is obvious implies this is not the case.
But I have, many times.
How many times have I given a sequence of events; beginning with input and ending with conscious action?
What do you think... that it is ''consciousness'' that makes decisions?
That it is ''you'' that makes decisions?
If so, how?
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn Of course it is very simple to say conscious deliberation is a report or an expression of underlying activity but you haven't yet explained how you got to this conclusion from the evidence you have posted. Don't keep saying it's obvious, because clearly your inability to explain why it is obvious implies this is not the case.
But I have, many times.
How many times have I given a sequence of events; beginning with input and ending with conscious action?
Yes you have listed a sequence of events, but you have not explained how the sequence makes the - deliberation is a report - claim true. You then say it's obvious, or it's simple, and expect others to figure out what you yourself are struggling to explain.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT But I have, many times.
How many times have I given a sequence of events; beginning with input and ending with conscious action?
Yes you have listed a sequence of events, but you have not explained how the sequence makes the - deliberation is a report - claim true. You then say it's obvious, or it's simple, and expect others to figure out what you yourself are struggling to explain.
I think I've said enough to show that conscious perception appears to be a virtual representation of the brain's immediate information state, and that the imagery of conscious perception, the objects and events of the external world, represents a combination of sensory input and memory, which in turn enables the brain the ability to perceive and to recognize its environment, form a self identity and respond to its challenges..
As sensory inputs and processing and memory correlation, etc, precede conscious perception of that very information by microseconds, and perception appears to be based on that very information...is it not reasonable to assume that conscious perception is a form of conscious report of that information?
Why would it not be?
What do you think consciousness is 'composed' of, if not a culmination of this interaction of information?
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn Yes you have listed a sequence of events, but you have not explained how the sequence makes the - deliberation is a report - claim true. You then say it's obvious, or it's simple, and expect others to figure out what you yourself are struggling to explain.
I think I've said enough...
...is it not reasonable to assume that conscious perception is a form of conscious report of that information?
I do not think it is "reasonable to assume" conscious deliberation is a report if you cannot explain how you get to this conclusion from the evidence you've presented.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT I think I've said enough...
...is it not reasonable to assume that conscious perception is a form of conscious report of that information?
I do not think it is "reasonable to assume" conscious deliberation is a report if you cannot explain how you get to this conclusion from the evidence you've presented.
So you keep claiming, even in spite of the fact the term is commonly being used in reference to the matter of information processing and consciousness formation.
You also miss the point that words are merely the symbols we use to reference objects and events in the external world.
I could as easily use the word conscious 'representation' of information, and often have. The word is not the actual thing, and as words cannot concisely represent the article they refer to, they must necessarily fall short.
Your error lies in focusing on the use of this word or that word and totally missing the point.
As I've shown, it's not as if I am alone in using the words 'report' or ''representation' - and nobody else appears to have any difficulty in understanding the intention of the use of words in these articles, only you, apparently.
I suspect that you want to seize onto any small thing that appears like a weakness or a flaw and worry it to death, no matter how trivial it may be. After all, that is all you can do. You have no other options.
You say that you agree with my descriptions of neurology, and that noone is disputing my descriptions, but sadly, you can't apply this to your concept of 'free will' - nor can anyone else - either implying that physical neural activity itself is 'free will' - or else some form of duality.
As neurons are information processors, and as cells don't appear to possess 'free will' - and duality implies the action of a 'soul' or something else that's untestable, either option is absurd.
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn I do not think it is "reasonable to assume" conscious deliberation is a report if you cannot explain how you get to this conclusion from the evidence you've presented.
So you keep claiming, even in spite of the fact the term is commonly being used in reference to the matter of information processing and consciousness
No you continue to make a claim you cannot justify. A fact you are trying to ignore.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT So you keep claiming, even in spite of the fact the term is commonly being used in reference to the matter of information processing and consciousness
No you continue to make a claim you cannot justify. A fact you are trying to ignore.
As you can see, the terms 'report' and 'representation' are being used in the field of neuroscience in reference to cognitive processes and consciousness formation because these words are the closest thing we have in terms of language with which to represent this form of neural activity. It's not perfect, but there ya go...deal with it.
Is this too difficult to grasp? What exactly is the problem?
Do you think that the brain's conscious representation of information is simultanious with input, propogation and prossessing? And therefore cannot be described as a conscious 'representation' or 'report' of that information?
Is that what you believe?
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn No you continue to make a claim you cannot justify. A fact you are trying to ignore.
As you can see, the terms 'report' and 'representation' are being used in the field of neuroscience...
Is this too difficult to grasp? What exactly is the problem?
You know exactly what the problem is. What's difficult to grasp is that you continue with this charade.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT As you can see, the terms 'report' and 'representation' are being used in the field of neuroscience...
Is this too difficult to grasp? What exactly is the problem?
You know exactly what the problem is. What's difficult to grasp is that you continue with this charade.
Charade? Penn, that's just a sad effort. I post examples of how the terms 'report' and 'representation' are being used within the field of neuroscience, and go to some length to explain how and why language and its symbology (words) is inadequate to properly describe these processes, and this is all you have to say? It's hopeless.
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn You know exactly what the problem is. What's difficult to grasp is that you continue with this charade.
Charade? Penn, that's just a sad effort. I post examples of how the terms 'report' and 'representation' are being used within the field of neuroscience
No-one asked you to post examples of the term "report". I know that you know that you've not been asked to post examples of the term "report".
Continue with your charade.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT Charade? Penn, that's just a sad effort. I post examples of how the terms 'report' and 'representation' are being used within the field of neuroscience
No-one asked you to post examples of the term "report". I know that you know that you've not been asked to post examples of the term "report".
Continue with your charade.
I don't know what you are banging on about.
The last thing you were on about was consciousness as 'report' - and it's this use of terminology that I tried to explain to you.
If there's something else you had in mind... well, I'm not a mind reader. You need to be more specific.
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn Continue with your charade.
I don't know what you are banging on about.
If there's something else you had in mind... well, I'm not a mind reader. You need to be more specific.
<edit>Just from this specific thread:
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#231 penn:Yes you have listed a sequence of events, but you have not explained how the sequence makes the - deliberation is a report - claim true. You then say it's obvious, or it's simple, and expect others to figure out what you yourself are struggling to explain.
#233 penn: I do not think it is "reasonable to assume" conscious deliberation is a report if you cannot explain how you get to this conclusion from the evidence you've presented.
#247 Togo: The basic problem, as it has been for (literally) years now, is that you're making a claim that you can't back up. There have been various forms to this claim, most recently that consciousness is a mere report, but they all boil down to the same thing - that consciousness has no effective role in decision making.
The question becomes why you can't back up this claim. The accepted means of backing up a claim is to cite some form of evidence or statement that is agreed, and then show how that demonstrates that your claim is correct, and rival claims incorrect.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT I don't know what you are banging on about.
If there's something else you had in mind... well, I'm not a mind reader. You need to be more specific.
I feel like I'm addressing a naughty child. Is there no limit to your intellectual dishonesty? Just from this specific thread:
That's bullshit penn.
My usage of the term 'report' in relation to cognitive processes and consciousness is exactly what I explained.
But instead of responding to my explanation you simply chose to go with your ad homs.
You have no case, and you know it, so you resort to insults. It's a poor effort.
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Originally Posted by DBT You have no case, and you know it
Just from this specific thread:
Quote:
#231 penn:Yes you have listed a sequence of events, but you have not explained how the sequence makes the - deliberation is a report - claim true. You then say it's obvious, or it's simple, and expect others to figure out what you yourself are struggling to explain.
#233 penn: I do not think it is "reasonable to assume" conscious deliberation is a report if you cannot explain how you get to this conclusion from the evidence you've presented.
#247 Togo: The basic problem, as it has been for (literally) years now, is that you're making a claim that you can't back up. There have been various forms to this claim, most recently that consciousness is a mere report, but they all boil down to the same thing - that consciousness has no effective role in decision making.
The question becomes why you can't back up this claim. The accepted means of backing up a claim is to cite some form of evidence or statement that is agreed, and then show how that demonstrates that your claim is correct, and rival claims incorrect.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT You have no case, and you know it
Just from this specific thread:
Penn, why don't you address the explanations that I gave for my usage of the terms 'represention' and 'report?'
Why do you ignore whatever I say and simply keep asking the same questions over and over?
Shouldn't you be addressing my replies instead of ignoring them? Isn't that the nature of a discussion?
Go back and respond to what I've already said.
Here, I'll make it easy for you;
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Originally Posted by DBT For heavens sake penn, what do you think conscious perception is based on? What do you think thoughts and feeings are based on?
Does it all just pop out of a vaccum? Is consciousness based on nothing at all?
What have I been saying about the cognitive events that provide information for conscious perception, thought, etc, and precede consciousness formation itself?
That interaction of input and memory is what is being presented in the form of conscious perception, that is the information that is being 'reported' to perception.
It's a no brainer.
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Originally Posted by DBT What is a ''report'', if not a presentation of information?
What does the brain do, if not generate, form or present some of its information (input and memory), in conscious form?
It's a no brainer, penn.
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#202 penn: The fact that you cannot explain how the the articles and studies show how conscious deliberation is a report, implies you don't actually know how they show it is a report.
#206 penn: But you then conclude from this that conscious deliberation is a report and also think it must be self-explanatory why it must be a report, when it is not. I don't think you can actually explain why conscious deliberation is a report, which is why you post so many articles and hope they explain it for you.
#227 penn: Of course it is very simple to say conscious deliberation is a report or an expression of underlying activity but you haven't yet explained how you got to this conclusion from the evidence you have posted. Don't keep saying it's obvious, because clearly your inability to explain why it is obvious implies this is not the case.
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Originally Posted by penn #202 penn: The fact that you cannot explain how the the articles and studies show how conscious deliberation is a report, implies you don't actually know how they show it is a report.
#206 penn: But you then conclude from this that conscious deliberation is a report and also think it must be self-explanatory why it must be a report, when it is not. I don't think you can actually explain why conscious deliberation is a report, which is why you post so many articles and hope they explain it for you.
#227 penn: Of course it is very simple to say conscious deliberation is a report or an expression of underlying activity but you haven't yet explained how you got to this conclusion from the evidence you have posted. Don't keep saying it's obvious, because clearly your inability to explain why it is obvious implies this is not the case.
What is a ''report'', if not a presentation of information?
What does the brain do, if not generate, form or present some of its information (input and memory), in conscious form?
1) It is the physical/informational condition of the brain that is reflected in the outward behaviour of the individual, his or her conscious will is a consequence of that physical/informational condition.
2) Information is processed by the brain as an interaction of inputs (external and internal), and memory, in turn producing conscious behaviour, including conscious will.
3) Conscious will, an expression of the underlying neural activity of infomation processing, has no independant ability to choose.
4) Conscious will is determined by the physical/informational condition of the brain.
Consciousness as representation of information processing;
Objects and events in the external world ->input of sensory information of objects and events ->propogation of this information throughout the neural networks of the brain-> conscious perception of that information emerges in microseconds ->conscious feelings and emotions emerge ->conscious thought and deliberation emerges in response to the stimuli of input and perception ->followed by a conscious impulse to respond (the conscious will to act) -> the action is consciously performed.
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn #202 penn: The fact that you cannot explain how the the articles and studies show how conscious deliberation is a report, implies you don't actually know how they show it is a report.
#206 penn: But you then conclude from this that conscious deliberation is a report and also think it must be self-explanatory why it must be a report, when it is not. I don't think you can actually explain why conscious deliberation is a report, which is why you post so many articles and hope they explain it for you.
#227 penn: Of course it is very simple to say conscious deliberation is a report or an expression of underlying activity but you haven't yet explained how you got to this conclusion from the evidence you have posted. Don't keep saying it's obvious, because clearly your inability to explain why it is obvious implies this is not the case.
What is a ''report'', if not a presentation of information?
What does the brain do, if not generate, form or present some of its information (input and memory), in conscious form?
1) It is the physical/informational condition of the brain that is reflected in the outward behaviour of the individual, his or her conscious will is a consequence of that physical/informational condition.
2) Information is processed by the brain as an interaction of inputs (external and internal), and memory, in turn producing conscious behaviour, including conscious will.
3) Conscious will, an expression of the underlying neural activity of infomation processing, has no independant ability to choose.
4) Conscious will is determined by the physical/informational condition of the brain.
Consciousness as representation of information processing;
Objects and events in the external world ->input of sensory information of objects and events ->propogation of this information throughout the neural networks of the brain-> conscious perception of that information emerges in microseconds ->conscious feelings and emotions emerge ->conscious thought and deliberation emerges in response to the stimuli of input and perception ->followed by a conscious impulse to respond (the conscious will to act) -> the action is consciously performed.
You posted the above a week ago. It didn't explain then, it doesn't explain now.
Togo's reply here.
What is anyone suppossed to make of the fact that you cannot explain how the articles and studies you post show how conscious deliberation is a report? If you continue to make a claim you cannot substantiate then you are trolling the forum.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT What is a ''report'', if not a presentation of information?
What does the brain do, if not generate, form or present some of its information (input and memory), in conscious form?
1) It is the physical/informational condition of the brain that is reflected in the outward behaviour of the individual, his or her conscious will is a consequence of that physical/informational condition.
2) Information is processed by the brain as an interaction of inputs (external and internal), and memory, in turn producing conscious behaviour, including conscious will.
3) Conscious will, an expression of the underlying neural activity of infomation processing, has no independant ability to choose.
4) Conscious will is determined by the physical/informational condition of the brain.
Consciousness as representation of information processing;
Objects and events in the external world ->input of sensory information of objects and events ->propogation of this information throughout the neural networks of the brain-> conscious perception of that information emerges in microseconds ->conscious feelings and emotions emerge ->conscious thought and deliberation emerges in response to the stimuli of input and perception ->followed by a conscious impulse to respond (the conscious will to act) -> the action is consciously performed.
You posted the above a week ago. It didn't explain then, it doesn't explain now.
Another sizzling argument for the affirmative, penn.
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Togo's reply here.
What is anyone suppossed to make of the fact that you cannot explain how the articles and studies you post show how conscious deliberation is a report? If you continue to make a claim you cannot substantiate then you are trolling the forum.
You two just need to read more carefully, if as Crick and Koch say, that ''the function of the neuronal correlate of consciousness is to produce the best current interpretation of the environment---in the light of past experiences---and to make it available, for a sufficient time, to the parts of the brain which contemplate, plan and execute voluntary motor outputs (including language)''.....why do you think that it cannot be said that neural systems are providing a report of their immediate information state Consdering that this is how it is commonly expressed in many papers.
Penn, your objection is just a smokescreen. And you are playing a dirty game by snipping out or brushing aside my replies in order to cover the fact that you have no case. You only have dirty tactics at your disposal, you cannot describe free will in terms of neural activity, or in any other way except as Togo said, as a subjective experience.
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Ok,penn let's have a look at your own case for free will.
I have repeatedly asked you for a description of free will in terms of neural structures and their activity.
Your latest effort is this;
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Originally Posted by DBT penn, don't just say it!! Give your description of free will in terms of cellular function! Provide evidence for your description.
That's all I'm asking, an actual case for your idea of free will.
A1) ''My description would be similar to yours. Compatibilism is defined as acting without compulsion.'' - penn
Not a relevant answer, but shows that at this late stage you still did not understand what compatibalism entails.
A2) ''Rather than repeating a description we both agree on (minus this confusing idea of conscious will as a report??) you need to show that our behaviour is never compelled.'' -penn
This also avoids my question, you are putting the onus back on me.
A3) ''Libertarians believe that determinism is false therefore our actions are not determined and so free. To disprove this idea you would have to show determinism is true, which you cannot.'' - penn
Getting even further off track, rather than answering my question and providing a case for your propositions, you again throw the burden onto me.
A4) ''To disprove this idea you would have to show determinism is true, which you cannot.'' - penn
Again, no description or argument forthcoming, instead you ask me to justify something that apparently has no bearing on my question for you, to provide a case for your own propositions.
A4) ''You need to present strong evidence as to why when I have a can of coke and a pepsi in front of me I cannot consciously and freely choose whichever can I want. And remember even Libet thought there may be such a thing as a conscious veto before an action is taken.'' - penn
Avoids providing anything that might appear like evidence or a description for his own propositions. Instead, yes, shifts the emphasis back onto me.
A5)''You need to present strong evidence as to why when I have a can of coke and a pepsi in front of me I cannot consciously and freely choose whichever can I want'' - penn.
Here's something at least, penn shifts the burden again but suggests that his belief in free will rests on his subjective perception of making conscious choices, still not expaining his proposition in any detail, yet alone in terms of neurology;
''nueral activity at work IS the "internal representation". -penn
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Originally Posted by DBT Ok,penn let's have a look at your own case for free will.
I started writing a response to your post but decided against as it all it would do is allow you to avoid justifying your unsubstantiated claim.
You claim conscious deliberation is a report. You claim the evidence you've posted shows this is true. You continue to claim this while being unable to show how this evidence backs up your claim. This implies you've no idea how it backs it up.
You have two choices:
1. explain how the evidence backs up your claim, or
2. drop the claim.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT Ok,penn let's have a look at your own case for free will.
I started writing a response to your post but decided against as it all it would do is allow you to avoid justifying your unsubstantiated claim.
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Originally Posted by penn You claim conscious deliberation is a report. You claim the evidence you've posted shows this is true. You continue to claim this while being unable to show how this evidence backs up your claim. This implies you've no idea how it backs it up.
Hilarious.
I have provided examples that show you that the terms are being used in the way that I used the terms - 'representation' and 'report' (neuroscience).
I have given examples of 'report' - now for conscious 'representation' of neural information states;
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Originally Posted by penn You have two choices:
1. explain how the evidence backs up your claim, or
2. drop the claim.
It's all been explained before, both by me and in the articles that I've linked.
I've gone to some length to explain to you the relationship of words (symbols) to objects and physical processes.
These terms are commonly being used in reference to the matter of information processing and consciousness formation.
Again, you miss the point that words are merely symbols we use in reference objects and events in the external world.
Rather than 'report' I could as easily haave used the word conscious 'representation' of information, and often have. The word is not the actual thing, and as words cannot concisely represent the article they refer to, they must necessarily fall short of the mark in some way.
As I've shown, I am alone in using the words 'report' or ''representation' in reference to neural activity and its correlates, conscious perception - nobody else appears to have any difficulty in understanding the intention or the use of these words, either by me or in articles, only a select few apparently. And you and I both know why that is.
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Originally Posted by DBT It's all been explained before, both by me and in the articles that I've linked.
I've gone to some length to explain to you the relationship of words (symbols) to objects and physical processes.
You have NOT explained how you conclude, from the articles, how conscious deliberation is a report. You have once again posted articles and then left it for others to somehow work out what you yourself cannot explain.
If I'm wrong instead of posting more articles explain HOW the article show how you reach the conclusion that conscious deliberation is a report.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT It's all been explained before, both by me and in the articles that I've linked.
I've gone to some length to explain to you the relationship of words (symbols) to objects and physical processes.
You have NOT explained how you conclude, from the articles, how conscious deliberation is a report. You have once again posted articles and then left it for others to somehow work out what you yourself cannot explain.
If I'm wrong instead of posting more articles explain HOW the article show how you reach the conclusion that conscious deliberation is a report.
Penn, it's self explanatory. These articles do not seek explain the term 'representaion' or 'report' over and above their usage, the do not give explanations because the terms are explained in the course of the given descriptions.
Penn, have a good look at this description of conscious 'representation', from the article;
''However, we suggest that it might be convenient to refer to the contents of consciousness (that is, phenomenal consciousness) as mental representations; mental entities that can stand for things in the outside world, and can usually be reported. When I remember something I have a mental representation of a past event. When I imagine something I have a mental representation of something that could occur in the outside world. When I perceive something I have a mental representation of something currently in the outside world. To say that we are conscious of something (or aware of something) is equivalent to saying that we have a mental representation of something.''
Now, penn, what is so difficult for you to understand?
Competent English speakers generally know what the word 'representation' or 'report' means. But anyhow here we go.
In this context;
rep·re·sen·ta·tion
1.the act of representing.
2. the state of being represented.
3.the expression or designation by some term, character, symbol, or the like.
4.action or speech on behalf of a person, group, business house, state, or the like by an agent, deputy, or representative.
5. the state or fact of being so represented:
re·port –verb (used with object)
11.to carry and repeat, as an answer or message; repeat, as what one has heard.
12. to relate, as what has been learned by observation or investigation. - Dictionary.com
Good so far?
Now to various forms of neural activities, sensory inputs, propogation, neural information processing, etc, which are not conscious but contribute information for conscious activity, conscious representation.
The term 'conscious representation' is used for several reasons. One reason, convenience. Another being, that as the preceding neural activites and events are not conscious, nor for the most part do they become conscious, but when information becomes conscious, this form of information has qualities that are distinguishable from the preceding unconscious activity, input, propogation, processing.
The distinction is this conscious form of information is not being presented or experienced as ions flowing flowing down pathways, neurchemical production and release, changes in the shapes of proteins, neurons and pathways, but as a largely unbroken series of subjective images, sounds, smells, trees, houses, cars, other people family, friends - it's an internal representation of the information the brain receives from the external world via its senses, propogation and processing, hence its is a conscious 'representation' of the information provided by the preceding activity, information gathering and processing, and through this activity making some of this information available in conscious form, therefore this conscious form may be described as a conscious 'representation' or 'report' of previously unconscious information.
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Originally Posted by DBT
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Originally Posted by penn You have NOT explained how you conclude, from the articles, how conscious deliberation is a report. You have once again posted articles and then left it for others to somehow work out what you yourself cannot explain.
If I'm wrong instead of posting more articles explain HOW the article show how you reach the conclusion that conscious deliberation is a report.
Penn, it's self explanatory. These articles do not seek explain the term 'representaion' or 'report' over and above their usage, the do not give explanations because the terms are explained in the course of the given descriptions.
Penn, have a good look at this description of conscious 'representation', from the article;
''When I remember something I have a mental representation
When I imagine something I have a mental representation
When I perceive something I have a mental representation"
Now, penn, what is so difficult for you to understand?
Conscious rememberings, imaginings and perceptions are not conscious deliberations? Please explain where the articles address the actual point I'm asking you about.
To be fair I think I am asking you for something that you cannot produce. The problem is you keep insisting that you do have evidence to back up your claim, but you consistently fail to produce it, so what am I supposed to do? If I drop the whole thing no doubt you will continue, as you have done, to make this unsubstantiated claim.
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT Penn, it's self explanatory. These articles do not seek explain the term 'representaion' or 'report' over and above their usage, the do not give explanations because the terms are explained in the course of the given descriptions.
Penn, have a good look at this description of conscious 'representation', from the article;
''When I remember something I have a mental representation
When I imagine something I have a mental representation
When I perceive something I have a mental representation"
Now, penn, what is so difficult for you to understand?
Conscious rememberings, imaginings and perceptions are not conscious deliberations?
A memory entering one's consciousness is not a 'deliberation'
A conscious perception is not necessarily a deliberation
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Originally Posted by penn Please explain where the articles address the actual point I'm asking you about.
The article does that.
''However, we suggest that it might be convenient to refer to the contents of consciousness (that is, phenomenal consciousness) as mental representations; mental entities that can stand for things in the outside world''
penn, exactly what part of this explanation do you not understand? That it is convenient to refer to the contents of consciousness as mental representations?
Why is this simply concept so difficult for you to understand?
Can you explain why?
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Originally Posted by penn To be fair I think I am asking you for something that you cannot produce. The problem is you keep insisting that you do have evidence to back up your claim, but you consistently fail to produce it, so what am I supposed to do? If I drop the whole thing no doubt you will continue, as you have done, to make this unsubstantiated claim.
Penn, to be fair, I think that you have no desire to understand what I and others are saying (articles) because of what having to understand implies for your unsupportable position.
Again, what part of it is ''convenient to refer to the contents of consciousness (that is, phenomenal consciousness) as mental representations; mental entities that can stand for things in the outside world''
And in fact, why would they not be mental representations?
How can our subjective conscious imagery be anything other than the mental (virtual) representations of things in the outside world?
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Originally Posted by DBT ''However, we suggest that it might be convenient to refer to the contents of consciousness (that is, phenomenal consciousness) as mental representations; mental entities that can stand for things in the outside world''
Again, what part of it is ''convenient to refer to the contents of consciousness (that is, phenomenal consciousness) as mental representations; mental entities that can stand for things in the outside world''
Are you serious? You are saying the above quote leads you to the conclusion that conscious deliberation is a report, or even conscious deliberation is a "mental entity that stands for something in the outside world"??? How exactly? What are you saying, you can picture a dog therefore conscious deliberation is a similar process to imagining a dog?
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Originally Posted by penn
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Originally Posted by DBT ''However, we suggest that it might be convenient to refer to the contents of consciousness (that is, phenomenal consciousness) as mental representations; mental entities that can stand for things in the outside world''
Again, what part of it is ''convenient to refer to the contents of consciousness (that is, phenomenal consciousness) as mental representations; mental entities that can stand for things in the outside world''
Are you serious? You are saying the above quote leads you to the conclusion that conscious deliberation is a report, or even conscious deliberation is a "mental entity that stands for something in the outside world"??? How exactly? What are you saying, you can picture a dog therefore conscious deliberation is a similar process to imagining a dog?
Where did conscious deliberation come into it? It's another issue altogether.
We are talking about mental representation...but being about a day later I suppose you've forgotten that. Just wait till Togo comes along, the point of the 'discussion' will be become any damn thing, quantum, determinism, random events...
Now let's get this straight, penn. While typing up your replies you in fact perceive a computer in front of you, right?
So what do you think, penn? Is the object you perceive in front of you, your computer, an external object that is being mentally represented by the neural activity of your brain, input and memory, recognition, etc...or is this an actual object situated inside your head?
What do you think, penn?
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Originally Posted by DBT Where did conscious deliberation come into it? It's another issue altogether.
We are talking about mental representation...
What do you think, penn?
For days I've been asking you to explain how the articles you post lead you to the conclusion that conscious deliberation is a report and you have the gal to post the above?
Do you want to continue with this ludicrous charade or do you want to address the question?