Math Justice League Blog

April 2024

The Conversational Hierarchy: Be A Builder, Not a Seagull!

Dear Math Justice League, 


You’re all set for your math lesson. You’ve introduced a high quality math question, created flexible groups, and had students restate the question. You send your students off into groups confident that they’ll succeed. Everything’s going great until you check in on your groups. 


In the first group, one person takes over and does all the work. A second group just sits there with no one suggesting ideas. A third group is constantly talking over each other and can’t come to a consensus. 


What’s going on? 

You did everything right. Right? 


For years I just expected kids to be able to talk productively with each other, especially in non-controversial subjects such as math. But, especially now as we come out of the pandemic, we can’t take it for granted that students have the skills to hold productive conversations. They need opportunities to reflect and build these skills. 


For me, that comes in the form of mini-character lessons that I’ve organized into what I call The Conversational Hierarchy. On the first page of his novel Anna Kerinina, Tolstoy famously wrote that “all happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” 


Years ago I decided to analyze the ways an unhappy family–in this case, a classroom–breaks down. I created characters that kids could relate to, and who were causing the breakdown. The first four characters I created were the ones shutting down conversations. 


The next three characters are not shutting down conversations, but they’re not contributing much, either. 


Now we get to the characters that help foster productive discourse: 


Now, return to your groups. That first group, where one person takes over and does all the work? You’ve got yourself a Dictator there. That second group, that just sits there–it’s a warren of Reluctant Rabbits (who may be afraid of being judged). Then you have the Seagulls, constantly talking over each other. 


As fun as it is to put a label on the problem, however, it’s just the first step. The challenge is to introduce these characters to your students in a non-judgmental way. It’s critical to realize that these characters are not essential traits; they are actions we have control over. They are choices we make. At some point, for instance, we have ALL been Seagulls, crying out to be heard.  We have all been Dictators and bossed others around. But we can all be the Builder, too!


I usually introduce the characters by talking about myself–about times when I have been a Seagull or a Dictator. And it’s often my kids who point out that I can float around like a Butterfly. (It’s pretty obvious when I’m wandering around the room, pulling out my hair as I search for those papers I had just a second ago…) 


The key point is that we have control over what character we play in the conversation. We get to choose whether to interrupt, Seagull-like, or whether we cheer on someone else’s great idea. Labeling these behaviors and personifying them as characters can backfire if someone gets the idea that they are always, say, a Dictator. But, once students can say to themselves, “I need to be less of a Judge and more of a Builder,” your classroom conversations will take a step forward. 


So as you launch your next class conversation, have your kids ask themselves – who will you be today?


In Crew,


Nate Gibbs

Sixth Grade Math Teacher

Genesee Community Charter School 

About the Author

For the last twenty-six years, Nate Gibbs has taught in all sorts of schools–public, private, and charter–in four different states. He currently teaches sixth grade at Genesee Community Charter School in Rochester, New York. 

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