Talking about 'Pomona'
with Alistair McDowall (Writer) and Ned Bennett (Director)

AMcD: So I guess- How do we start talking about the show? At the beginning?

We did it in Cardiff first. In an earlier version.

NB: It was a commission for their inaugural “New” season.

I was at the National Theatre studio, working on another play. And I got an email from the Royal Court saying, do you want to do this thing with Royal Welsh College. It was a co-commission. And I probably wouldn't have done it, to be honest, but I already had the idea for the play, and I thought it would be funny to do it at a drama school.

(Laughing) Really?

No more thought put into the decision than that. Most of the good decisions I've made have been because the idea of doing something seemed fun to me, or daft or something, you know.

Do you mean funny because it's an intense play?

I hadn't written it yet, but I knew it was going to be a strange, nightmarish kind of thing. And I thought the idea of doing it in Cardiff with some students would be fun; sort of a funny place for it to appear. And also, I knew that the casting would work quite well- I wouldn't have to change it. Because the deal with those shows is you have to have evenly weighted parts.

Yeah.

And I knew it was going to be an ensemble, so I wasn't going to have to twist the play into something else to make it fit, if you know what I mean.

Do you remember reading it the first time?

Yeah. I remember loving it and being completely baffled. I remember two things specifically that made me excited- seeing how the dots are joined-

It opens with everyone dying, basically, doesn't it? And then you find out how they ended up that way by the end.

Yeah, exactly. And then a character becoming a seagull.

So we started in Cardiff. And then as part of that season it went on at The Gate.

Yeah. That was a very joyful experience.

I think we both have fond memories about working with those guys in Cardiff, because they were such a nice bunch. And so we did it there. And then I didn't really think it would go anywhere else to be honest, I thought that was probably it.

I totally assumed it would because I thought it was such a special play.

But I didn't necessarily think I'd be involved.

I think a lot of people just thought it was quite odd, which it is, I guess.

But then we heard the Orange Tree wanted it. Which I think is because Guy Jones [the Orange Tree’s Literary Associate] saw it, didn't he?

Oh, right. I didn't know that. He saw it at The Gate. Yeah, that makes sense.

And then he passed it on to Paul, who was about to take over the Orange Tree.

How well did you know the Orange Tree before we went there?

I'd been there on a school trip to see The Caucasian Chalk Circle.

I remember the very particular vibe of it being intimate and in the round.

I knew about it because of being a theatre nerd and seeing it mentioned in the front of plays, particularly international plays like Michel Vinaver. And Martin Crimp having started there. So I knew it as a place where some cool things happened, but I hadn't actually been there, I have to confess. But when I went I thought the space was really nice. And perfect for the play, which was written to be done in the round.

Paul was very clear in saying that the ideas we were having for the production were going to feel quite different to the building. For starters, the pit hadn't been used much at all.

We lowered the stage.

Well- there was a hole in the middle of it. Georgia Lowe’s design used the big rectangular hole in the middle of the stage to create essentially a giant drain. There was a scene where literally buckets of blood were thrown in and got mopped up, or washed away, I can’t remember.

Georgia and I came back three years later with Branden Jacobs-Jenkins’ play An Octoroon. We pulled up the floor and used the pit again- this time filled it with water. A lovely thing was that Iain Mackintosh- the architect of the Orange Tree- was also the architect of the Cottesloe (now Dorfman) at the National. When they were designing the new Orange Tree in the seventies, it was touch and go as to whether they’d include the pit. And then they did. And so apparently Mackintosh was very pleased to see it used in both venues when we later took An Octoroon to the Dorfman. Georgia describes the Orange Tree as the perfect storytelling space. And I think that's absolutely right. You can have a show like Every Brilliant Thing, where it's one person standing in the middle of the space telling a story, and it’s completely captivating and transporting. You can also put a drain in the middle and everything becomes disorientating and strange.

It’s also a fun space in which to place a lot of movement as the actors are on top of the audience- for Pomona and An Octoroon they were literally jumping over their feet.

Yeah, a lot of running around in Pomona.

There’s lots of life or death situations, and people being chased, and then the company having to do complicated costume changes in blackouts. The Orange Tree can do incredible blackouts- the space becomes terrifying.

It got very dark in there, for sure.

I remember thinking it was quite flexible, sort of deceptively so- you wouldn't have thought it really when you started working there. But there were lots of opportunities to spring scenes on the audience from unexpected places.

Yes, the combination of the full blackout and entrances at each corner means you can jarringly jump cut between scenes- and the size of the space means it can be done pretty quickly.

It was really fun making the show there. They were a really nice cast, and because the building’s quite small, you got to know everyone who worked there pretty quickly.

There was an amazing, positive spirit to the place. Stuart Burgess [Technical Manager] was phenomenal- we'd ask him if we could set the middle of the stage on fire, and that lunchtime, he would be in the car park trying to find a way to do it. We were a relatively young creative team, with a relatively young cast- we felt very supported.

It was nice feeling that everyone was behind it. Paul, Sarah [Nicholson, Executive Director at the time] and Guy in particular were always around. Which was especially helpful after the first preview.

Do you remember the first preview?

(Laughing) Why would you bring up the first preview, Ali?

I think it's fun to talk about it. If this is supposed to be us talking about how the Orange Tree was a nice place to work and everything. It’s probably the best example we can give.

A great example.

Because the first preview- which wasn’t down to anyone's fault-

But the first preview was a bit disastrous, wasn't it? For a variety of reasons.

What I would say is, when you've got a play that is nineteen scenes and twenty transitions- We had not yet found its flow.

That’s a nicer way of putting it.

The bottom line was, it dragged. And a play like that, it doesn't work if it feels like it's on the backfoot.

I don't want anyone reading this who was involved to think I'm having a go or anything- Because it wasn't because it was someone's fault.

Right.

But it was a complicated text. And we had complicated tech, and we were pushed for time...

We were being incredibly ambitious. And we were trying to lean into some of the genre stuff in there. And that's difficult on stage.

The cast were great in that they were really a tight unit. I remembered feeling they were a crack squad even from the beginning. So it wasn’t down to anyone messing up or anything.

I thought it was my fault. That first preview finished and I left the theatre, and I thought I'd written a play that just didn't work at all. I felt I’d inflicted this broken thing on everyone, and it was entirely my fault. I really thought it was knackered.

I stayed behind to do notes, and you were staying at mine- I remember getting home and finding you sat very still. Like you'd arrived in the house and just stayed in one position for two hours.

I've got a photo of us on that night- because then you came in and sat probably equally still. We sat up till about three talking about it.

And well, what were we going to do, give up? All we could do was keep going. And that’s where Paul and Sarah’s support was massive. And no one made us feel like we'd got something wrong. It was just- Well, that was the first preview. Now we keep going.

And that crucial period between the first preview- which was also the dress rehearsal - ! - was a process of layering in more and more sound, music and light. We had a few days to find the rhythm of going in and out of each scene and how this shifted the atmosphere and clarity of the story. Giles Thomas [Sound design and composition] and Elliot Griggs [lighting design] worked around the clock with Becky Flisher [Deputy Stage manager] and her team. Polly Bennett [movement director] worked closely with the company cutting and adding set pieces and detail, drawing together the visual language of the piece.

I remember the press night being almost euphoric because of the trajectory the show had been on over the previews- it was a bit better, then a bit better, than a bit better- And then the press night was a strong show.

We always said we wish we'd filmed the blackouts with a UV camera, because the level of teamwork, in the sense of, not just having to make complicated entrances and exits out of a massive hole in the floor, and a half meter gap between audience members, but also a cast member having to help another cast member with a costume change whilst not being able to see anything-

It demanded of us and the building a synergy which was really thrilling, and it felt like a bit of an adventure doing it.

And even though I did feel like it would probably be on again after those shows in Cardiff, I didn't see it going to another three venues.

It’s always mystified me that it did so well, because it's so strange. And it really is quite grim. It's got a worldview that I don't entirely relate to anymore, being a bit older now. Something a little nihilistic about it. But saying that, I don't think it's entirely bleak. I think there’s a bit of hope in there. But it’s amazing to me that people are still doing it. I feel very, very lucky.

I couldn't have predicted that at all. Do you remember Derek [front of house manager]?

Yeah, he would gleefully tell us how the audience was responding- whether they loved it or hated it.

He was amazing. Sort of cheering it on.

That's the thing about a venue like that is you feel like you're going into someone's house. You're being greeted and looked after.

A great theatre and a nice place to work.