Setting DV and Negative modifiers is an art form

Art by Psychée"

INTRODUCTION

RULES

INTRODUCTION

"Effective setting of DVs and the use of penalties by GMs ... With some examples of tasks involving different Skills at different DVs. How and when to use penalties. How to think creatively about penalties. That sort of thing." J.Gray

That's certainly not an easy task for me here. I might have to change this post with your comments, that's not an issue, I did it in other posts. I'm certainly not omniscient, most members of this community started playing and GMing CPR long before me. They have more experience. And this topic requires it.

In D&D, I feel setting DV and penalty is a science. In CPR I learnt, it is more an art form than science, as it's a gritty world, with John Wick combat, in order to roleplay some very personal stories.

< Disclaimer : I'm going to assume you are playing it fair/challenging. Meaning it's about open dice throw and open DV. You are not fudging your Dice roll or the DVs. That's a technique, tell them to roll dice and decide after the roll what was the DV. It works fine at some table, I don't have any issue with this style of GMing. But some people enjoy the challenge as much as the story, they need open DV and open roll. GMs can have some difficulties to set those open DV or the penalties to check, that's what this post is about. >

RULES

Difficulty Values

DV09 - Simple - This is something most people can do without thinking, but which might be hard for a small child.
DV13 - Everyday - This feat is something most people can do without a lot of special training.
DV15 - Difficult - This feat is something most people can do without a lot of special training.
DV17 - Professional - This feat takes actual training and the user can be considered to be a professional, skilled in their abilities.
DV21 - Heroic - This is a highly skilled feat; one that only the best of the best can pull off. This is the level of sports stars and other highly regarded superstars.
DV24 - Incredible - This is a tremendous feat. Pulling this off would rate you among the very best of your class professionally. You are of truly Olympian mettle.
DV29 - Legendary - An awe-inspiring feat. This is something people write stories about; a truly amazing accomplishment that will be spoken of in hushed tones for years to come.

Negative Modifier Examples

Mod value - 1

Night or low lighting conditions
Have never done this before

Mod value -2

Complex task
Don't have right tools or parts
Slept uncomfortable the night before.
Under extreme stress

Mod value -4

Exhausted
Extremely drunk or sedated
Trying to perform task secretly
Task obscured by smoke, darkness

Postive Modifiers

They generally come from gear, cyberware, Role Abilities, or drugs

ANALYSIS

Definition for this post :

Base = (STAT + Skill) nothing else.
Positive modifiers = all bonuses coming from cyberwares, gears, role abilites, or drugs

DV Scale vs Base Skill

Base 10 in a skill allows you to perform all the basic stuff. (in theory)

a Simple DV9 --> 2+
An Everyday DV13 --> 4+ is risky 33% chance of failure without a positive modifier.
A Difficult DV15 --> 6+ that's a 50% chance. It's indeed difficult

Base 14 means you are a pro.

A Difficult DV15 is easy for a pro --> 2+
A Professional DV17 --> 4+ is risky 33% chance of failure without a positive modifier.
A Heroic DV21 --> 8+ that's very hard !

Base 18 you are a world expert.

A Professional DV17 --> (1.2)+ even with a small implosion.. you can do it
A Heroic DV21 --> 4+ is risky 33% chance of failure without a positive modifier.
An Incredible DV24 --> 7+ That's hard
A Legendary DV29 ---> 10+ you need positive modifier here for sure.

Don't forget that some skill can reach awesome level with very high positive modifier. Example : Perception. +2 Image enhance or +2 Hearing enhance, Combat Awareness (Threat Detection) up to +10, Boost +2. For at least a +14 positive modifier. What's easy for a Solo to spot, may be incredibly hard for another Role.

And you have Luck... that's a potentiel +8 positive modifier (even more with No place like Home).

A GM should know how high a PC can get in any skill. And you have dedicated post for that :

Skill Positive modifiers - by u/Infernox-Ratchet (Hi choomba !)

Setting DV

In theory, setting a DV involves determining the difficulty of a task in absolute terms. We have a benchmark scale to help us. I will not give you a recipe to follow, because setting DV is also part of your GMing style. But I will give you some food for though. Remenber that setting DV in CPR is not a science, it's an art.

Type of checks

Planned check or Improvised check. Improvising a check and setting a DV on the spot can be a difficult task and it's easy to mess up because of the time pressure. On the other hand if your screamsheet is well made, you have multiple path to reach the end of the story, and you did plan different investigation checks in order to give the relevant information to your players. So, if they choose another path, which they always do, you have your backup plan for them in case you badly setup the DVs for this improvise path they are taking.

Number of PCs rolling the same check

Library search, Perception, Conceal/Reveal, etc... every PCs can roll at the same time. The more PCs you have, the more chance of a 10+ they have. I'm not telling you to set insane DV here. Just don't forget that the greater the number, the greater the likelihood of success. Some games ask for a leader to do the roll with bonus provided by other. It's only 1 check for the group, the other check are just for complementary bonuses.

Criteria

Realism : You want to set a credible DV, else your players gonna think you are fudging in disguise if the DV are really low. And it's also part of the immersion for some players.
Cool : CPR ruleset is not about realism, so you can also use the rule of cool in order to setup a DV less harder than it should be. Just because that's a cool move.
Character development : sometimes you gonna set a DV just because you know they will beat it, but there is a tiny risk... so they have to roll. And sometimes you know they are weak in this Skill and you're setting a DV high enough for them to fail. It's playing strength and weakness, that's part of the game as every character should have strengths and weaknesses.

Consequence of failure for the story/character

Death : the character gonna die if he failed. That's shouldn't happen. BUT stupid decision can lead to this kind of check. On the other hand, it's your job to tell them they are trying something quit dangerous. The player might not know, but their character might, don't plan Life or Death checks unless players are fully aware. e.g : "Take a moment to ask, “Are you sure you want to do this?’’ to reinforce the seriousness of the situation." Source : The Jacket
Wall : the PCs will hit a wall and you will have to improvise another way for them to reach the next step. That's a bad design from your part. But it happens sometimes.
Another road: It's not an issue, there are other ways to reach the next step.
Not significant: That's not going to impact meaningfully the story/character

So what ?

You should planned your checks and their DV with all these criteria in mind. The idea is to challenge them if they aren't playing their strength. If you really want them to reach the end of the Screamsheet you need multiple paths and clues they will uncover via multiple Skills. That allows them to fail one check without failing the job. Which allows you to set one DV very high even if they are playing their strength, Luck is here for that, and they can always roll a 9+. That will lead to great RP moment.

The improvised DV are more difficult to set, because you lack time, you are under pressure. Think about consequences first, then the other criteria.

Negative modifier

be careful, it's streamlined for a reason, a part of it probably to avoid modifiers calculation.

E.g : The target is moving very fast -2, there is a lot of wind -1, the light is very low -1, you have a peeble in your shoes -1, your girlfriend is cheating on you and it's bothering you enough to mess up your focus -2, etc...

That's not the intend (at least I think it's not).

In CPR, I think a negative modifier should be a one time ruling for a specific situation. It's not a new rules you gonna apply each time the situation is kinda related. I use it for dramatic purpose or to emphasized they are not prepared enough (not having the right tools is one I love the most).

edit from J.Gray comment: "I do encourage GMs to make extensive use of penalties as makes sense. The trick is only apply one GM penalty to a Check (on top of any penalties based on rules such as being Severely Wounded) and to be fair and consistent about it. If you decide dodging, after three dodges in a single round the fourth+ dodge is a Complex task and subject to a -2 modifier, make sure that is true next session as well. Penalties aren’t just environmental but help a GM enforce the style of play they want at their table. Want more heroic, less gritty play? Don’t lean hard on the penalties. Want more gritty, “realistic” play? Make use of them to modify the rules in that direction.

Importantly, do not take the listed penalties from the core rulebook as gospel. Take “doesn’t have the right tools.” If the Character has a decent tool but not the right tools (say, a tech tool instead of a full tool kit) downgrade the penalty to -1 because the decent tool is better than nothing. Meanwhile, a tool is best defined as “something you need for the job” and not literally a “a tool for repairing things.” In a social situation? Your clothing is a tool. Wear leisurewear to a cocktail party and chances are you’ll be taking a -2 to your social checks."

PLANNED DV

Telling people is fine, showing is better.

Let's fabricate a short screamsheet. (I will NOT go into details/ description. I will focus on Check, DV and Negative modifiers)

The Team

Cypher, a Solo, assassin type, specialize in Stealth, Acting, Melee, not bad in Electronic /Security, Lock Pick.
Akame, a Media with high COOL, INT, REF, specialize in investigation and social skills, Acting included, very good with a gun.
Swift, a Tech, a cat burglar, low COOL, every skills needed to break-in and steal stuff in a house. Almost no combat ability.

They are new characters (no IP, no Money). The screamsheet gonna be tailored to use their strengths. They are clever players, they didn't build a Cover Ops team to go front door guns blazing. Bad decisions or bad rolls may lead to combat. They can afford it. Still it's not where they shine.

The community where they live : "the Ring"

Few blocks in Old Japantown
Protector : Telchar, the ripperdoc who created the Ring (officially)
Gang : Bloddy Fangs, kinda guardian, still violent. with a wolf pack mentality. That's the one and only gang in the Ring. Very territorial.
Fixer : Jacky

The Job

The Disassemblers , a small gang from the Old Japantown (outside the Ring) is trying to expand his territory inside the Ring. The BF aren't gonna let that happen. A bloody war is coming. Jacky, the Fixer, is tasked by Telchar to find a crew to deal with that issue before it explode.

Jacky wants the PCs to stop the incoming war without talking to Fenrir, the BF's leader. He is very territorial and not willing to back down a bit. This approach already failed. Now it's time to solve this issue on the other side of the coins : The Disassemblers. Whatever method they choose, Fenrir mustn't suspect any involvement of any kind. He is adamant about this restriction. They also have a short amount of time to solve everything one or two days ... at most.

Fixer's Intel :

Disassemblers : 10/15 members (in fact 20)
Leader: Bonekeeper, a big bulky black american ganger
Lieutenant: Smoke
Area : a few blocks with the adress of their HQ (Old Japantown)

Phase 0 - Analysis

Obvisouly killing the head of the Dissassemblers should do the trick. But your players shouldn't make such a bold move without more intelligence.

Deduction DV13

"Guys, don't take any decision without gathering more intelligence, the situation is fishy, they are only 10/15 members and the Bloody Fangs are around 50. Furthermore, Fenrir, the BF leader is very violent and vindicative, he will not show any mercy, that's a well known fact. Why would the Disassemblers do such a move ?"
That's an "Everyday" analysis for any edgerunner. I'll ask for the check only if the players are already planning the assassination without any analysis. No modifier here.

Phase 1 - Passive Intel

They don't have a lot of time, so I asked them to choose Library search or Streewise both of them will take hours. And they can roll Local expert as it's only a check to define what they already know.

If they don't have Local Expert (Old Japantown), they can roll with a Negative Modifier: -4 "knowledge can't popup from nowhere directly into your brain, either you know or you don't". Still, it's close to them, and they might have heard something, that's kinda a luck check with such a Negative Modifier when you don't have the skill.

Local Expert is a very specialized skill, you need Local Expert (Old Japantown). But if you have it, it's very easy and reliable.
Streetwise allows them to find underground people that are willing to sell a bit of information, DV are harder than local Expert and it cost some eddies
Library search is the all purpose skill for gathering intel, but the Old Japantown is a Combat Zone, and part of the area is not connected to a Datapool. It's not the best skill here.

Of course non of the players have local Expert (Old Japantown) because it's a "waste of IP/creation point". Well, I disagree, Local Expert 3 + INT 8 + Apps (Ziggurat City Database) 1 = 12 that's enough here to get good Intel (Difficult DV15) on a 6+ (50% chance). And if they need it... Boost can add +2.

There is very low probability for 3 PCs to fail (6 check in total). Consequence in case of failure ? None, because all these informations can be learned during the Active Intel phase.

The idea behind it is also to promote Local Expert to the players. It works well IF they are settled in a specific area.

Phase 2 - Active Intel

It's up to the players, there are multiple ways to get more Intel.

Surveillance of the Dissemblers building

If they choose an abandoned building nearby : Stealth check will set the DV of the gangers Perception check. Negative modifier applied to Perception : -2 as it's a complex task to spot a stealth expert in a far away building while not being very vigilant (ganger are NOT professional sentinel).

If they choose to impersonate a combat zoner passing by and/or tripping under drugs: Acting check which will set the DV of the Human Perception check of the opponent. Negative modifier applied to Acting : -2 not having the right tools, if they don't have "baglady chic" clothes or ripped/trashed clothes.

You must tell them they need to spend at least 24hours. --> Endurance check (see CRB) for sleeping in the street unless they do a rotation but that may lead to more Stealth checks.

Failure, they are spotted, a combat will happen if they don't run away + Disassemblers are now aware something fishy is going on.
Success - Intel : They are Scavengers, mostly Basic Tech stuff... but also corpse. Nobody dares to approach their area. Bonekeeper has a female girlfriend, their relationship is heated, they witnessed an altercation between the both of them. The couple sleeps in Bonekeeper flat, top floor (5th) + there is a way to enter stealthly with a grapple gun on the side of the building. Smoke is quit young and contrary to Bonekeeper he doesn't sleep in the building.

Tailing Smoke

Stealth check which will set the DV of the Perception check of the opponent. Negative modifier apply to Stealth : none, the Solo have holo-clothes and can change outfit at every corner of street + Techhair + ChemSkin + Different glass, scarf, and hat. He has all the tools needed for shadowing someone.

Complementary skill: Acting DV15 - in order to roleplay a combat zoner, a different one every 10 minutes.

Failure, you are spotted a confrontation will happen if you don't run away. He will try to understand who you are : threat then violence.
Success - Intel : Smoke lives in an apartment in a near building, protected by the gang. An old lady live with him. Further investigation will reveal it's his mother. He had an altercation with a japanese combat zoner during the tail. Smoke is obvisouly very racist against Japaneses (that an important piece of intel).

Interrogating a Disassemblers

They need to isolate and capture one of them --> Sleep dart is the best bet for this specific crew. Group Brawling and choke works also very well. After it's done, Interrogation time is coming.

Resistance D/T check for the Dissasembler which will set the DV of the Interrogation check for the player. Negative modifier applied to Interrogation : -2 because of the intense loyalty all the gangers have for their chief. (I want them to feel the gang atmosphere, Bonekeeper is a charismatic leader, a grumpy one.)

Failure, you get small amount of intel (yes, threatening the life of someone will get you some information whatever the result of the check. But not the most important one) : he loves women and cheats a lot on his girlfriend. She is aware of that and very hot tempered, which leads to frequent dispute.
Success : same than above + Bonekeeper suddendly changed (not smiling, harsh, moody) after a meeting with a Tyger Claws named Takeshi + Smoke doesn't agree with the invasion plan and doesn't understand why, nobody does.

Break-in at Bonekeeper's flat

Stealth check which will set the DV of the Perception check of the opponent.

Negative modifier applied to Perception : -2 as they are not vigilant at all.
Failure = spotted = combat or chase.

Athletics DV13 to climb the side wall of the building.

Negative modifier -2 if they don't have a grapple gun. That's easy to climb, less easy to do it quietly. Complementary skill : Stealth.
Failure = someone is aware something is going one.

Perception DV17 (Professional) to spot a hidden camera in the corridor leading to the appartment.

Seems hard ? It should be easy for the Solo (CA 4 in Threat detection and Base 12 in Perception), if the Tech is alone... that can be more problematic.
Failure : there is a record of the players

E/S DV15 against the camera (standard DV from the book is DV9 )

Failure : there is a record of the players
Success : The player knows it's a very hardened camera. But he is a Tech, TECH8 + E/S 6 + Techscanner 2 + Field Expertise 4 = 20. That's child play for him. Even a 1 isn't enough to stop him.

Lock Pick DV17 (Professional) : Bonekeeper doesn't trust his gang members for security and he prefers analogic security

It's a 1 minute task.
The Tech has a Base 14. That's not an easy one.
Failure : you need to use strength

He can restest with a Luck point, an assist (complementary skill) or by taking his time (this one is NOT recommended here). BUT with a -2 due to a stressful situation as their is noise coming from the stairs.

The Solo can try it, Base 12 that's harder for him AND Luck is not "worth it", he has only 3. Character creation is about choice. You can't have everything. With Luck 3, you lose the capabilities to reverse the odds for 1 test per session. (it's neither good or bad, it's just a choice).

Optional : Force entry

This one is interesting, you could go for an evaluation of what does it takes to break a sturdy door. That's very subjective and depend of many factor.

DEX + Athletics, but you need to take into account the strength of the character. if the Tech is alone... that's gonna be impossible BODY 4. If the Solo is here too, BODY 8, and has a Base Athlectics of 12. He is a muscular man without being superhuman and he knows how to apply his strengh. But the door is sturdy. Meaning it should be difficult even for him.

--> DV 17 (50% chance) which is Professional. Negative modifier -2 if they don't have a tool like a crow bar and -4 for trying to do it secretly. Meaning even with a tool, and a complementary check (help) from the Tech, he has 12 -4 +1 = 9. That's a 9+ to succeed. I'm OK with this odds. First of all he has Base 14 in Lock Pick. A 4+ will do the trick. If he fails, the second test requires a 6+ which is again very doable for him (50%).

If he failed to Lock Pick a door while playing on his strength, I have no pity playing on a weakness after that. He can use Luck point. And the Tech have a lot of them.

Positive modifier +4 : linear frame Sigma OR you can set an array of DV depending on BODY. Because Athetics is under DEX that's one way to factor in the strengh in such a check.

Failure : a boostergang will come to check what's going on. And they likely not being able to enter for now. That's not a problem
Succeed : That's the 9+ roll effect ! Yeah ! I beat the odds ! I'm such a king. You've got one happy player... and the door is now open.

Conceal/Reveal to search the appartement, check DV15 Hidden compartment (cargo/cuber hotel DLC)

Failure : Nothing. You can retry by taking your time. As it's a long process tell them someone might come sooner or later. Perfect opportunity to give them the loot if they succeed and to start a chase.
Success : A chip - 5x Smash - An excellent quality VHP (500eb)
Chip content : Lot of photo of him with women in diverse activities (clear enough for you ?). Latest entry a Japanese female called Lumi, she wears Tyger Claws colors (when she wears something) + an archive of a recent message coming from Takeshi adressed to Bonekeeper: "I know what's you and Lumi are doing. We need to talk before I spill everything to her brother. There is something you can do for me." (when someone is blackmailing you, having proof can be useful later)

Phase 3 - Planning and Execution

You can't really prepared for all possibilities as it depends a lot on the information gathered.

Bonekeeper

They can kill Bonekeeper (ambush in his appartement / Snipe / Whatever) : effective, but Fenrir (BF leader) gonna investigate, he is suspicious because nobody knows who did it.

They can confront Bonekeeper. If they display enough power and knowledge about the situation at hand, he will tell them he doesn't have any choice, unless someone flatline Takeshi.

Persuasion check DV15 (Difficult) He is willing to trust them and will pay them to do it (1000eb / personn). If they don't have enough knowledge, don't even bother to make a Persuasion check.

Negative modifier : -2 "Don't take me for a fool" - only applied if the PCs are lecturing him or take a "I'm better than you" stance

If the players manage to kil Takeshi, Bonekeeper will be free and will stop his suicidal invasion of the Ring. For the record Takeshi is a "good" guy. A TC lieutenant trying to protect his community. Killing him will solve everything for the Ring. And players will make more money. But the community protected by Takeshi will take a hit as he replacement his not a kind hearted one. That's more chaos in Old Japantown.

Smoke

They can show pictures of Bonekeeper and the Japanese Tyger Claws + message of Takeshi to Smoke

Persuasion DV13. It's easy (Akame, the Media, is base 14 in Persuasion), because he is a racist and he doesn't agree with Bonekeeper decision to invade the Ring.

Now he knows why and he is angry. He will kill Bonekeeper. Fenrir will not suspect anything. They gain a contact : Smoke.

Confrontating Smoke without any proof might end-up badly, he is loyal. Not Persuasion check will bend his will here. Don't authorize to roll. Persuasion IS NOT a Vampire the Mascarade Domination or Presence. Sometimes, without the right angle, it just doesn't work.

Bonekeeper official girlfriend

They can show pictures of Bonekeeper and the Japanese Tyger Claws to the official girlfriend. No roll, she is hot tempered and him cheating again with a Japanese AND a TC! That's too much for her. He will kill Bonekeeper. Fenrir will not suspect anything.

Hito the brother of Lumi (the TC mistress)

Find out who is Lumi's brother, Show pictures of Bonekeeper and the Japanese Tyger Claws. Persuasion DV13. Again it's easy, because he is overprotective and he already suspects something is going on. He will kill Bonekeeper. Fenrir will not suspect anything.

Takeshi, the TC lieutenant pressuring Bonekeeper

They can find out who is Takeashi if they only have his message. Library search DV15 (he is an official employee of TC Guardian gumi, easy to find). Local expert 13 (he is well know to be a good guardian in the Old Japantown). Streetwise DV13 (he is well know to be a good guardian in the Old Japantown). Else they know about him because they interrogate a ganger and he said a Tyger Claws named Takeshi.

Then they can have a chat with him. Persuasion DV17 (professional).

Negative modifier : -4 if they don't have pictures of Bonekeeper and Lumi + Takeshi message to Bonekeeper. Without the right "tools" it's difficult to pressure him into backing of. Even with "tools" that still requires a good negotiator because he is pressured by the upper echelon to do something against the Bloody Fangs.
Positive modifier (rare) : +2 if they threaten him with a bad article (Akame is a Media). Tyger Claws are still legit as a guardian corporation, image/face is important. This one allows a retest as the PCs bring something new to the table.

Mixing stuff

For example, they can confront Bonekeeper, kill Takeshi and then sell him out to Smoke.

Conclusion

As you can see, no DV21+, BUT some negative modifiers can reach -6 (-4 and -2).

ON THE SPOT

That's when high DV might be set. Why ? Because you players always try some weird stuff under the cover of "it's cool". I'm not against the rule of cool. But sometimes that's too much. That's why I'm not against setting high DV. If they want to do cool stuff... go spend some Luck.

On the spot is also about creative way to inflict Negative modifier. Because you never know what's going on in your players heads.

You describe a scene in a warehouse and there is a barrel filled with hydraulic fluid. A player wants to use it to slow down pursuers, that's -2 to the Athletics check due to slippery floor.
After hacking the guard Agent, the players make it ring for a distraction. -2 to the Perception check "you are not doing your job right now"
a PC is trying to obtain some intel through Bureaucracy in the Town-hall, with a RCL patch in his jacket. -4 to the Bureaucracy check "the employee doesn't like Red Chrome Legion" but you don't tell the player why ,unless his PC managed to succeed a Perception check to get the quick glance at his patch.
4 mooks and 1 lieutenant are focusing fire on you -2 to your Evasion checks due to extreme stress. (used against a base 17 Evasion with hardened mook TN12 and 1 lieutenant TN14)
You want to jump from your car to the raffen shiv car ? Ok that's an Athletics check DV 13, in the absolute, it's not hard. -1 First time, -2 under stress, -2 cars are moving erratically. Base 14 - 5 = 9. You need a 5+. Have you got any Luck left ? Or do you wish to reconsider ?
You just dealt the final blow to a ganger with a hypurrburst from your best gun, Hello Cutie MicroCutie. Two other gangers saw you, and now you are showing them the weapon. while asking "Want some ?". OK... roll a Facedown. Negative modifier for the gangers : -2 "I don't want to be killed by a purring gun". (That was an example by your non-official Sanroo Hello Cutie fireams representative, me.)
You are trying to convince a guy that he can find his soulmate. Persuasion DV13, he is willing to be persuade. Negative modifier : -4, your beloved girlfriend dumped you yesterday evening via your garden page "You're no worth my time, loser. Adios".
You are trying to persuade StackBorn via a discussion on a garden page about Elflines Online rules/homebrew. Persuasion DV9 as your point is very easy to get. Negative modifier : -10, StackBorn has another opinion and is kinda stubborn. (this one is dedicated to u/Sparky_McDibben and u/Sverkhchelovek)

CONCLUSION

I don't have any secret recipe for you. But the preparation phase is a moment which allows you to think. Use it. The more you spend time designing your checks, DV and Penalties, the more you will be effective for "on the spot" decision.

Negative modifiers are a great tools, because the task at hand might be easy, be the situation is not. That's very important for me to separate these two parts. That's also important for the players. They need to know you are aware that the task is not that hard in the absolute.

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