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Efforts to Determine the Geographical Origins of the Family.
Efforts to Determine the Geographical Origins of the Family.
Introduction and Background (David Cissell):
Introduction and Background (David Cissell):
Several approaches have been used in trying to determine the origins of the family.
Several approaches have been used in trying to determine the origins of the family.
The first was to look for early records related to the “Cecil” surname. Because of the historical importance and many records related to William Cecil, Lord Burghley it seemed that looking for these records might be more productive that than looking at the other surname branches of the family:
The first was to look for early records related to the “Cecil” surname. Because of the historical importance and many records related to William Cecil, Lord Burghley it seemed that looking for these records might be more productive that than looking at the other surname branches of the family:
One of the earliest records found was in a calendar of documents related to Ireland about 1254 and dated 15 Edward I, “Robert Fitz Richard de Crus whom Milo de Crus vouches to warranty puts in his place Henry Cysel against Nicholas Bacoun of a plea of land.” Henry Cysel is mentioned again in a similar document dated Easter 1258. [Coram Rege, Edw. I., No. 108, Rot. 51.]
One of the earliest records found was in a calendar of documents related to Ireland about 1254 and dated 15 Edward I, “Robert Fitz Richard de Crus whom Milo de Crus vouches to warranty puts in his place Henry Cysel against Nicholas Bacoun of a plea of land.” Henry Cysel is mentioned again in a similar document dated Easter 1258. [Coram Rege, Edw. I., No. 108, Rot. 51.]
Another “Cysel” is mentioned in an inquest document related to North Westmorland from 1305, “Inquest taken after the death of John, son of William de Graystoke, before Richard Cysel, escheator beyond Trent, at Appleby on the Sunday before St. Wilfrid, 34 Edward 1, by William de Crackanthorpe and others as jurors….” [The Later Records relating to North Westmorland: or the Barony of Appleby, 1932, John F. Curwen, ppg. 115-120.]
Another “Cysel” is mentioned in an inquest document related to North Westmorland from 1305, “Inquest taken after the death of John, son of William de Graystoke, before Richard Cysel, escheator beyond Trent, at Appleby on the Sunday before St. Wilfrid, 34 Edward 1, by William de Crackanthorpe and others as jurors….” [The Later Records relating to North Westmorland: or the Barony of Appleby, 1932, John F. Curwen, ppg. 115-120.]
On 10 December 1317 from Windsor, the government of Edward II enquired about a possible open position in Gascony, “For the commitment of an office to Master Ramon Cisel.” Ramon had served both Edward II and his father, Edward I. [Gascon Roll for the 11th year of the reign of Edward II, son of Edward I., Membrane 13.]
On 10 December 1317 from Windsor, the government of Edward II enquired about a possible open position in Gascony, “For the commitment of an office to Master Ramon Cisel.” Ramon had served both Edward II and his father, Edward I. [Gascon Roll for the 11th year of the reign of Edward II, son of Edward I., Membrane 13.]
A William Cecill(Scissell) is mentioned as being from Howden, Yorkshire as early as 1356.[ Patent Rolls, 30 Edward III - Part 1., Membrane 17d.] A Stephen Cecill is mentioned as being from Howden in Patent Rolls in 1406 [Calendar of Patent Rolls, pg 248, Membrane 35.] and so could well have been a son of William.
A William Cecill(Scissell) is mentioned as being from Howden, Yorkshire as early as 1356.[ Patent Rolls, 30 Edward III - Part 1., Membrane 17d.] A Stephen Cecill is mentioned as being from Howden in Patent Rolls in 1406 [Calendar of Patent Rolls, pg 248, Membrane 35.] and so could well have been a son of William.
Most of the records in this time are fine, but not all of the Cecil’s were totally law abiding. On 3 November 1391 in Westminster it was charged that Robert Cecile and others, broke into a “ park at Fenwyk, co. York, hunted therein without licence, cut down trees growing there and at Mosele, took away the said trees and deer from the park, killed five swans worth £10., at Fenwyk, and assaulted and wounded his men and servants there…” [Patent Rolls Edward III, pg 200, Membrane 17d.]
Most of the records in this time are fine, but not all of the Cecil’s were totally law abiding. On 3 November 1391 in Westminster it was charged that Robert Cecile and others, broke into a “ park at Fenwyk, co. York, hunted therein without licence, cut down trees growing there and at Mosele, took away the said trees and deer from the park, killed five swans worth £10., at Fenwyk, and assaulted and wounded his men and servants there…” [Patent Rolls Edward III, pg 200, Membrane 17d.]
From these and related records one could expect to find family origins somewhere in the area from Westmoreland to Yorkshire and possibly Lincolnshire with a concentration of the family in Yorkshire. Unfortunately, although there were Cecil families in that area, they are not a good proxy for William Cecil’s origins.
From these and related records one could expect to find family origins somewhere in the area from Westmoreland to Yorkshire and possibly Lincolnshire with a concentration of the family in Yorkshire. Unfortunately, although there were Cecil families in that area, they are not a good proxy for William Cecil’s origins.
It turns out that William Cecil’s original family did not use “Cecil” as their surname. In fact, Lord Burghley was the first member of his family to adopt that name. So what was the family’s real surname?
It turns out that William Cecil’s original family did not use “Cecil” as their surname. In fact, Lord Burghley was the first member of his family to adopt that name. So what was the family’s real surname?
In both of his Wills (1535 and 1536), William’s grandfather, referred to himself as “David Cyssell”.
In both of his Wills (1535 and 1536), William’s grandfather, referred to himself as “David Cyssell”.
David’s Godfather is normally taken to have been Sir David Philips who died in 1506. In David Philip’s Will, one of his Godsons is referred to as “Davy Seysyld”. Elsewhere in the Will, Burghley’s grandfather is also identified as “Davy Scisseld”. The Philips Will also refers to the wife of William’s grandfather as “Agnes Scisseld”. [Leicestershire and Rutland Notes and Queries, Vol II., (April 1891 - Jan. 1893), Ed. John & Thomas Spencer, pg 122]
David’s Godfather is normally taken to have been Sir David Philips who died in 1506. In David Philip’s Will, one of his Godsons is referred to as “Davy Seysyld”. Elsewhere in the Will, Burghley’s grandfather is also identified as “Davy Scisseld”. The Philips Will also refers to the wife of William’s grandfather as “Agnes Scisseld”. [Leicestershire and Rutland Notes and Queries, Vol II., (April 1891 - Jan. 1893), Ed. John & Thomas Spencer, pg 122]
Another reference to Willliam’s grandfather is in the will of Henry Welby of Mouton, Lincolnshire where he is referred to as “David Cyssell” and identified as Henry’s father-in-law. [PCC Wills, Henry Welby or Welbye, 1 Dec. 1536, PROB 11/25/605.]
Another reference to Willliam’s grandfather is in the will of Henry Welby of Mouton, Lincolnshire where he is referred to as “David Cyssell” and identified as Henry’s father-in-law. [PCC Wills, Henry Welby or Welbye, 1 Dec. 1536, PROB 11/25/605.]
There are other legal document references to William’s grandfather. One example is a court case brought by Richard and Anne Clement. In it David is identified as “David Syssell”. [Court of Chancery, 1504-1515, C 1/299/31]
There are other legal document references to William’s grandfather. One example is a court case brought by Richard and Anne Clement. In it David is identified as “David Syssell”. [Court of Chancery, 1504-1515, C 1/299/31]
After David’s death, his two sons had legal disputes in which their surnames were mentioned. One was documented as, "Court of Requests: Pleadings. HENRY VII - HENRY VIII. David Syssell of Witham {on the Hill}, Lincolnshire, v Richard Syssell, yeoman of the robes, and Thomas Chambers, Abbot of Peterborough Abbey: lands and tenements in Stamford, Lincolnshire, and the manor of Tinwell, Rutland. ..." [Court of Requests, 22 April 1541 - 21 April 1542, REQ 2/12/230]
After David’s death, his two sons had legal disputes in which their surnames were mentioned. One was documented as, "Court of Requests: Pleadings. HENRY VII - HENRY VIII. David Syssell of Witham {on the Hill}, Lincolnshire, v Richard Syssell, yeoman of the robes, and Thomas Chambers, Abbot of Peterborough Abbey: lands and tenements in Stamford, Lincolnshire, and the manor of Tinwell, Rutland. ..." [Court of Requests, 22 April 1541 - 21 April 1542, REQ 2/12/230]
There is a well-known letter from Thomas Cecil, Burghley's eldest son, to his cousin, Hugh Allington, which was written 13 Nov. 1605. In it Thomas says that his grandfather (Richard) spelled the family name as “Syssell” and wonders why his father (Lord Burghley) altered it. [A Catalogue of the Manuscripts Relating to Wales in the British Museum., Part I., 1900, ED. Edward Owen, pg 131 (Harleian Collection: [343] 374 (a) ff. 32, 32b)]
There is a well-known letter from Thomas Cecil, Burghley's eldest son, to his cousin, Hugh Allington, which was written 13 Nov. 1605. In it Thomas says that his grandfather (Richard) spelled the family name as “Syssell” and wonders why his father (Lord Burghley) altered it. [A Catalogue of the Manuscripts Relating to Wales in the British Museum., Part I., 1900, ED. Edward Owen, pg 131 (Harleian Collection: [343] 374 (a) ff. 32, 32b)]
From these few records, and there are others, we have a range of spellings including: Cyssell, Seysyld, Scisseld, and Syssell.
From these few records, and there are others, we have a range of spellings including: Cyssell, Seysyld, Scisseld, and Syssell.
What was the most likely original spelling or pronunciation for Burghley’s grandfather and thus his original family? Spelling in those days was not formally codified and what was written was often a function of the writer’s interpretation of what they heard or what they knew personally. Accordingly, the sound of the name is probably more important than its exact spelling in these records. In addition, the person who knew David the longest, and especially one who had likely known his parents would be the most likely to know the pronunciation of the original family name. In this case the most reliable source would clearly have been the Godfather, Sir David Philips. Accordingly, the best estimate for the original name is taken as something similar to Seysyld (or Scisseld).
What was the most likely original spelling or pronunciation for Burghley’s grandfather and thus his original family? Spelling in those days was not formally codified and what was written was often a function of the writer’s interpretation of what they heard or what they knew personally. Accordingly, the sound of the name is probably more important than its exact spelling in these records. In addition, the person who knew David the longest, and especially one who had likely known his parents would be the most likely to know the pronunciation of the original family name. In this case the most reliable source would clearly have been the Godfather, Sir David Philips. Accordingly, the best estimate for the original name is taken as something similar to Seysyld (or Scisseld).
Although the name Sitsilt, as in Sitsilt of Altyrennes, is often associated with Lord Burghley’s origins, because of its inclusion in the somewhat questionable pedigree prepared by his genealogists, it does not really seem to match with David Philips knowledge of the family name.
Although the name Sitsilt, as in Sitsilt of Altyrennes, is often associated with Lord Burghley’s origins, because of its inclusion in the somewhat questionable pedigree prepared by his genealogists, it does not really seem to match with David Philips knowledge of the family name.
In his Will, David Philips did leave a legacy to the rood of Deweles. This may be Dulas located about 4.5 miles NE of Alterynnys. If David Philips had been born or lived near there in his early life, then perhaps David Seysyld had been born near there as well. So even if Burghley’s family had not been from Altyrennes, there is some chance they lived not all that far away. If the Godson “Davy Seysyld” in the Will had been intended to be David Jr., and not David Sr., then this possibility would be somewhat less likely. [Notes and Queries, Tenth Series, Volume V., Jan-Jun 1906, pp 6-7.]
In his Will, David Philips did leave a legacy to the rood of Deweles. This may be Dulas located about 4.5 miles NE of Alterynnys. If David Philips had been born or lived near there in his early life, then perhaps David Seysyld had been born near there as well. So even if Burghley’s family had not been from Altyrennes, there is some chance they lived not all that far away. If the Godson “Davy Seysyld” in the Will had been intended to be David Jr., and not David Sr., then this possibility would be somewhat less likely. [Notes and Queries, Tenth Series, Volume V., Jan-Jun 1906, pp 6-7.]
Attempts to find other early records for “Seysyld” (Cyssell, Scisseld, or Syssell) has not been productive in that no records of those names exist prior to 1500. Similarly, the Welsh name “Sitsilt”, almost always a given name, appears only in documents written since the time of Lord Burghley.
Attempts to find other early records for “Seysyld” (Cyssell, Scisseld, or Syssell) has not been productive in that no records of those names exist prior to 1500. Similarly, the Welsh name “Sitsilt”, almost always a given name, appears only in documents written since the time of Lord Burghley.
The lack of paper records prior to 1500 does not mean that the family did not exist in the area. In fact, there is at least one piece of evidence for them. It is a brass plate in the floor of an aisle at St. Mary Magdalen Church at Tormarton, Gloucestershire. It honors John Ceysyll. The surrounding inscription says, "Pray for the soul of the Reverend John Ceysyll once the servant of the soldier John Sendlow (Saint lo), which John Ceysyll ended his last year on the eve of St. Bartholomew the Apostle (August 23), AD, 1493 and in the ninth year of the reign of King Henry VII. To whose soul may the most high be merciful. Amen”.
The lack of paper records prior to 1500 does not mean that the family did not exist in the area. In fact, there is at least one piece of evidence for them. It is a brass plate in the floor of an aisle at St. Mary Magdalen Church at Tormarton, Gloucestershire. It honors John Ceysyll. The surrounding inscription says, "Pray for the soul of the Reverend John Ceysyll once the servant of the soldier John Sendlow (Saint lo), which John Ceysyll ended his last year on the eve of St. Bartholomew the Apostle (August 23), AD, 1493 and in the ninth year of the reign of King Henry VII. To whose soul may the most high be merciful. Amen”.
John Cecsyll 1493.pngThis photo was taken for us by Phil Draper of Bristol, UK.
DNA Results:
DNA Results:
Given the difficulties with the paper-work approaches we think that DNA results can give some added insight to the possible origins of the family and of Lord Burghley’s branch, independent of any fanciful pedigrees that might have been created for him.
Given the difficulties with the paper-work approaches we think that DNA results can give some added insight to the possible origins of the family and of Lord Burghley’s branch, independent of any fanciful pedigrees that might have been created for him.
Not all of the people taking DNA tests know where their family branches originated, but some do. One approach is to look at the known origins of those taking DNA tests, relate them to the DNA family tree and see if a common origin is suggested. John Howells and John Gilbert have helped in attempting to do this while also considering genealogies and the known histories of the areas involved.
Not all of the people taking DNA tests know where their family branches originated, but some do. One approach is to look at the known origins of those taking DNA tests, relate them to the DNA family tree and see if a common origin is suggested. John Howells and John Gilbert have helped in attempting to do this while also considering genealogies and the known histories of the areas involved.
Genealogical research suggests that the relevant Howells family were living in Ganarew near Monmouth before 1700 and subsequently in the Vowchurch (Ewyas Lacy) area of Herefordshire from the early 1700's. The relevant Gilbert family was living at Shirehampton near Bristol in the early 1800's.
Genealogical research suggests that the relevant Howells family were living in Ganarew near Monmouth before 1700 and subsequently in the Vowchurch (Ewyas Lacy) area of Herefordshire from the early 1700's. The relevant Gilbert family was living at Shirehampton near Bristol in the early 1800's.
The related Webb family (one or more branches) appears to have had origins in Tetbury, Gloucestershire. The Word family thinks they may have lived in Llandaff, Cardiff, prior to emigration to the United States. Another family appears to have had origins in Kilpeck, Herefordshire. Another tester showed connections to Devon.
The related Webb family (one or more branches) appears to have had origins in Tetbury, Gloucestershire. The Word family thinks they may have lived in Llandaff, Cardiff, prior to emigration to the United States. Another family appears to have had origins in Kilpeck, Herefordshire. Another tester showed connections to Devon.
From what is known so far, there appears to be a concentration of family ancestry in West Herefordshire and Gloucestershire, broadly along the route of the River Wye and around the Severn estuary. We have to assume, then, that the Cecil origins are almost certainly in this area as well. Perhaps Lord Burghley’s genealogists were not that far off after all!
From what is known so far, there appears to be a concentration of family ancestry in West Herefordshire and Gloucestershire, broadly along the route of the River Wye and around the Severn estuary. We have to assume, then, that the Cecil origins are almost certainly in this area as well. Perhaps Lord Burghley’s genealogists were not that far off after all!
Work on better defining the family origins is continuing. Part of this also relates to the two family members with origins in Norway. How they came to be there is of interest. We hope addition tests and historical records will be able to shed some light on this part of the family history as well.
Work on better defining the family origins is continuing. Part of this also relates to the two family members with origins in Norway. How they came to be there is of interest. We hope addition tests and historical records will be able to shed some light on this part of the family history as well.
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