Embedded Files
As is at,Sidlesham, West Sussex in private garden,still plenty to do to finish the other side and to polish and fit all the original internal brasswork that came with the carriage, make one door to relace one that had rotted out and been replaced with a door from a different style carriage and window blinds
As found at North Common Farm,Selsey May 2017
In 2017 I was asked if I was interested in scrapping the old railway carriage that had been converted into a toilet and shower block at North Common Holiday Camp at North Common Farm and will be recognised by those that stayed and worked there, the carriage was in a poor state and considered beyond repair even before it went to North Common in 80s/90s, I have several old vehicles that I am restoring but decided to put them on the back burner to concentrate on the carriage before the rot in the floor frame and roof problems got any worse
I asked the owners if I could bring it back to my property and restore it, the Bunn family kindly agreed and I set about trying to get it moved, it was sitting on a lorry trailer that had not been moved or MOT’d for 30 years when the carriage was moved there in the late1980s? I set about getting the carriage and the trailer in a movable condition but it was proving hard to get someone to move it that didn’t involve taking out a second mortage but eventually found a helpfull traveller family who would risk bringing it the 3.2 miles from Selsey to my home at Sidlesham.
Myself and helpers, anyone who i could volunteer ?? have spent about four years so far restoring it and have another few more years to go ???,i have a few other inside restoration projects to work on so flit between them as weather,money or waiting for parts/help permits-hope to have it done before i drop off my perch.
I know nothing about trains but was told a Selsey tram exibition had been held in it ,i was advised by the Kent railway people at Tenterdon to email the Vintage Carriage Trust who were very helpfull and responded with
”The carriage body is known to the Society LNWR 155, is an early sleeper carriage, later converted to a ‘Picnic Saloon’, and would have been used for hire by groups or families where it would be attached to service trains for days out to North Wales Coast or Blackpool etc. Quite a large number of these were built but very few survive. They began to be phased out as the motor car and motor bus became more available in the 1920’s and 1930’ ,
the Vintage Carriage Trust list the carriage as historically very important and unique”In 1917 the carriage and thirteen others were converted by LNWR for use in France in WW1 as General Haig’s Headquarters train. In 1927 Captain Charles Vale bought 11 acres of land and several carriages some at £25 each delivered to your nearest railway station, to Elmer,West Sussex to be converted into homes, at this time there were only 2 houses in Elmer, Farmer Brown and his pigman. From there it seems to have gone to the Lavender Line who mailed me “We sold it as restoration was beyond our means (I recall serious suggestions that it should be burnt to get rid of it!) and I am quite surprised it survives.”
If anyone has any info about the Carriages life at Selsey or elsewhere or info about Captain Charles Vale or the book he says in the newspaper article he has written or about General Haig’s use of his train whilst in France, please get in touch by email haigstrain@grumits.com
Researching librarys is not my thing but i spent several days at chichester records office trying to find any info on trains as homes locally and did find some items of interest that i have included,the first is a article with a interview with Captain Charles Vale who took the first carriage to Elmer,West Sussex in 1920
Item 1 is a Rather flowery Article in Bognor News on october 666
SUPER RAILWAY BUNGALOWS – AT ELMER
SUPER RAILWAY BUNGALOWS – AT ELMER
Elmer-on-Sea, by nomenclature of its cottages and bungalows, cliffs like auriferous alluvial and tamarisk, suggestive of chapparal and sagebrush; California in miniature, develops. And those names! Pasadena with its wealth of orange groves. Del Monte, Monterey with the glorious Del Monte Hotel, one of the loveliest spots in America. Santa Barbara with the old quaint placid Spanish mission so familiar to picture-goers. Coronado del Mar, so assured, so in keeping with the spirit of the days when Los Angeles was called by the, all compelling fervour of faith of the Franciscan fathers, Le Reina de Los Angeles.
A new semi-circular road, Coronado Drive, leading out of Elmer Road, which it rejoins at its further extremity has been completed recently. Out of this new road leads another to the site, adjoining the shore, for the proposed swimming pool to be 130-150 feet long by 35 feet wide. This will be a covered-in concreted tank, tide filled, the water trapped, and steam heated. Grass lawn tennis courts abutting on the Drive are being laid down. With a passing reference to the cottages of English and American type, each standing in its own garden, railway carriages in various converted designs with or without added roof, one passed on to see the three railway coaches which, prior to their removal here, were used respectively by the Prince of Wales, Princess Mary and the Duke of Sutherland. These coaches built by the London and North Western Railway in pre-war days at a cost of from three to four thousand apiece, are a marvel of adjustment of railroad travelling to luxurious and comfortable housing conditions.
Mr Vale acquired them (he informed the writer) from the Railroad Company as they stood, complete throughout, so that on entering the doorway the visitor at once apprehends the apt ability of the furnishings and fixtures to the maximum of commodiousness and comfort in a minimum of space.
Tables are attached to the sides of the cars on a flap to be raised when not required. Chests of drawers, cupboards or a lounge also are built into the sides or corners, leaving the centre free for a middle table or large easy chairs.
The car throughout is electrically lighted, either from overhead or side lights, and also steam heated its whole length, from self-contained lighting plant and heating apparatus.
In the culinary department a small kitchen, scullery, pantry with refrigerator and store for comestibles provide for alimentary requirements. Bedrooms and a bathroom with hot and cold water and a let-down hand basin add to the amenities – all these fittings heavily plated. Water for the kitchen, bathroom, etc., is supplied from a copper cistern in the roof, felt lined to prevent freezing, holding 250 gallons. Sliding doors or grilles here and there are used to economise space. The cars as representative of the acme of British skill in coach building are extraordinarily well finished. The metal fittings (Mr Vale says) are solid brass or copper throughout, screws and all, either plain or oxidised. In one of the cars there is a panelling of marquetery work, running the length of the reception room on either side, and one end, which is exquisite. The designs are either baskets or flowers, or trailing sprays. Very few can do such work at all nowadays and quite likely the cost of each of these floral panels was from £20 to £40. The door panel on the far door, facing the visitor as he enters is an especially fine example of the art.
The woodwork generally is of polished mahogany, beautifully fitted, as are all part of the coach, to withstand vibration. Settees, chairs and lounges, are upholstered in Morocco leather. The doors and windows are fitted with a special draught proof interlocking arrangement, and the blinds are of silk tapestry. Electrical fans recalled the fact that March winds herald summer and what a very pleasant place one of these super cars would be in which to spend “that month by the sea”.
Item 2 is HOW HAIG’S TRAIN GOT TO ELMER - Bognor Regis Post – 10 October 1964
HOW HAIG’S TRAIN GOT TO ELMER - Bognor Regis Post – 10 October 1964
There are several bungalows at Elmer made up of railway carriages.The most well-known, on the main road opposite the Beach Estate is “Marechal”, built from four carriages of Earl Haig’s train in which he planned the campaigns and tactics of the 1914-1918 war with Marshal Foch, and in which the Armistice was signed.The bungalow is up for sale and some of the fittings of what was Haig’s own coach have been removed and were auctioned in London this week. These historic mahogany fitments consist of a map table,a wardrobe to take greatcoats, a drawer to take headwear, a chestof drawers and a bookcase. The present owners of the bungalow are Mr. and Mrs. H.C. Page of Ealing, who bought it in 1951.In the vicinity of “Marechal”, built into other homes, are more of the ten carriages of Haig’s train, excepting the one which the Armistice was actually signed. This, I believe, stayed in France.In addition, there are bungalows containing Royal carriages from trains that once carried the Princess Royal, the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Sutherland.How did a train that had heard the rumble of the Flanders guns come to its final rest near the soft sighing of the sea? It’s a long story, but here’s the gist of it.The man responsible is a jovial sprightly character, aged merely 81 and now living at Fishbourne. He returned home from America, he told me, where he had been yacht-master to a railroad millionaire, George J. Gould, and came to West Sussex when the war ended. His wife has a relative locally.Inventive and speculative, he decided to settle by the sea and bought a railway carriage from Eastleigh, which he erected on a £5 site at Pagham beach—where, as far as he remembers, there were only two shacks in 1919. Having built this home for about £30, he was immediately asked if he would sell it, which he did, for £100.
This meant a search for another site, so he roved east past Bognor, and down the long lane to Ralph Brown’s farmlands. Here was just Elmer farmhouse, pasture, crops and a coastguards’ station.Farmer Brown let him have three acres. From Lancing railway carriage works he obtained two small carriages and made them into a cosy little home, named “Monterey”.Throat trouble put his wife into hospital at Chichester and when visiting her one day she said “have you read this?”It was an advertisement in a magazine called “Surplus”, dealing with ex-Services material, offering for sale “a palatial train suitable for potentate”.Fired with enthusiasm, he inspected the train at the L.N.E.R. sheds at Wolverton, Bucks. The price was £14,000. Sir George White, the chairman told him the fittings alone cost £6,000.After six months’ negotiation, the offer that Capt. Vale eventually made was £1,400 and this was accepted. Furthermore, he already had a buyer for some of the carriages, for he had a caller at his Elmer bungalow who was looking for a similar seaside abode. This was Lady Pauline Davis, ex-Lady Mayoress of London. When he told her he was going to buy a train, she said “I’ll come with you”.Capt. Vale’s description of Haig’s train arrival at Bognor in 1920 and its transference to Elmer Farm is like the happenings in a Mack Sennett comedy. The L.N.R. men had warned him that Bognor Station would never have a crane strong enough to lift the 10-ton carriages off the bogeys.His Navy know-how conquered such obstacles. From Portsmouth he obtained reels of wire cable as thick as a half-crown. With this the crane was strengthened. Hydraulic jacks lifted the carriages and he placed them on one of those conveyances for carting tree trunks.It was winter when the creation of Elmer began.He and his brother-in-law laid sleepers over the wet field and the carriages were hauled into place by hawser and tractor. One carriage fell over into a hedge and had boughs sticking through the panelling. After righting it, they slid it along Elmer Lane.Lady Davis had chosen the four carriages she wanted for “Marechal” – two were sleeping coaches for Haig’s staff, with baths, and the others were the kitchen and Haig’s own carriage.Chance now took a hand, resulting in Capt. Vale obtaining an 11-acre field (now Elmer Beach Estate) from Farmer Brown for about £1,200 for more carriage-bungalows.In his early life in the Navy, he had been appointed as messenger to the Duchess of York (the future Queen Mary) on a world cruise. In her dignified way, she was very kind to him and he had seen her once or twice in later years.While building the Haig train bungalows, he visited the Imperial Institute of London with his daughter. By coincidence, Queen Mary was due there on a private visit that afternoon with the Princess Royal. She saw him, nodded in recognition and later sent for him.She was interested in his venture at the seaside and after listening to his story, asked whether he would be interested in some old Royal train carriages, also housed at Wolverton.Once more, Captain Vale did a deal with the railway men, and down to Elmer came Princess Mary’s carriage, the Prince of Wales’ carriage and that of the Duke of Sutherland.This was in 1922. Princess Mary’s coach went to make part of a bungalow almost opposite “Maréchal”, and the Prince’s coach was taken by Sir Henry Shepherd, a High Sheriff of London. The Duke’s went into what is still, perhaps, the best example of rolling stock architecture at Elmer, “Santa Barbara” on the Beach Estate, which was Captains Vale’s own home.He gave these residences Californian names, such as “Passadena” and “Ventura” in memory of his American days.Today, though the Elmer he created has a percentage of brick in it now, it is still an amusing surprise to come across picturesque carriages that wondered off the rails, like “Bohemia”, or “Santa Marina”, to an enjoyable journey’s end in the roaring twenties.Captain Vale left Elmer in 1925 to try his hand at building orthodox houses. Even then, he was experimental and the round house with domed ceiling and tunnel to the beach that he put up at Rotingdean received world-wide publicity.
He has written his life story. It is a fascinating yarn. If he can find a publisher, he has another idea. The royalties shall go to a children’s home.
ELMER’S BEGINNINGS – Bognor Regis Post – 24 October 1964
My recent note of Charles Vale’s recollections of building the first Elmer bungalows from railway carriages in the early 1920s has brought more memories of those days from Mr. K. Hopwood of Main Drive, Middleton.Like Mr. Vale, his father has spent years in California in such places as Santa Barbara Pasadena and “a small village called Hollywood”.“We were on holiday at Felpham”, recalls Mr. Hopwood, “and when out one day, we saw a bungalow in Elmer Road called Santa Barbara. My father wondered who could live there and on making enquiries we met Mr. Vale. This was the start of our connection with Elmer and, with help from Mr. Vale, my father built a bungalow and named it Pasadena. Others which my father built and named were Avalon, Maritima and Santa Monica”.The Santa Barbara bungalow erected by Mr. Vale is now called Sea Breezes. One other pioneer bungalow, built by Mr. Vale’s brother-in-law, Mr. Moxon, was called Corona del Mar originally, and is now Anchusa.Since those railway carriages came to rest, Elmer has grown out of recognition.“It is hard to realise”, says Mr. Hopwood, “that at that time, between Elmer Sands Estate and the Yapton Road, the only houses were Rose Cottage – then known as Hunts Corner – Church Cottage, occupied by Farmer Brown’s cowman and shepherd, High Kettle Cottage and Elmer Lodge, now Jubilee Parade. Southdean was several derelict seaplane hangars, shortly to become the “New City”.
25 YEARS AGO – Bognor Regis Observer – 5 October 1989
The Bognor Regis area is to lose one of the most prized relics of World War I with the sale in London of Earl Haig’s mahogany map table. At present it belongs to Mr. H.C. Page, a London company director, who has kept it at his week-end bungalow at Middleton. The bungalow is built from four of the carriages of the train in which the 1918 Armistice was signed. The map table was used by Earl Haig and Marshal Foch to plan many of the campaigns and tactics of World War I. The train from which the Middleton bungalow was made formed part of the Allied Headquarters and was moved up and down the line.
This page shows the layout of the 14 carriages that made up the Headquarters train.Our carriage is number 11,Office and Bedroom for chief clerk-i think the train would have been in this order,the order of importance to Haig-Drawing is From Railway Gazette September 1921
Vintage Carriage Trust details of carriage
LNWR 155 Sleeper First (later Picnic Saloon) (body only) built 1888
Present Location
Sidlesham
County Location
West Sussex
Designed For
LNWR
Build Location
Wolverton
Diagram number
(5), 76
Type
SLF
First Number
155
Later Numbers
5155 11
Present Number
None
Gauge
4ft 8 1/2in
Wheel Arrangement
Body only
Original Underframe
No
Original Bogies/Wheelsets
No
Additional Notes
Converted 1909 to 3rd class Picnic Saloon. 1917: General Haig's HQ train in France; back to LNWR 1920; Grounded 1921 at Middleton-on-Sea as dwelling. Body P 1988: Isfield until 1996: Enfield, then caravan park in Selsey as shower/toilet block. Two inside partitions survive. Relocated to Cockaigne Fields, Sidlesham. 09/23: restoration now well under way.
Grid Reference
SZ 85108 97645
External Structural Condition
Satisfactory
Internal Structural Condition
Satisfactory
Underframe Condition
Not Applicable
External Finish
Satisfactory
Internal Finish
Fair
Degree of External Originality
Some replaced/reproduced material
Degree of Internal Originality
Some replaced/reproduced material
Degree of Underframe/Running Gear Originality
Not Applicable
Degree of External Authenticity
Good
Degree of Internal Authenticity
Fair
Degree of Underframe Authenticity
Not Applicable
Rarity
Unique
Historical Importance
Exceptionally Important
Storage
Open
Operating
No
Survey Date
27/05/2008
Surveyor
Kevin Stroud
Photo Date
27/05/2008
Photo by
Kevin Stroud
At Risk
No
Date Record Last Updated
28/10/2023
Both ends of carriage were in poor condion,the end with no door being a bit worse-the end door from the carriage had been removed and used to make a internal partition for shower room and toilets and the entrance to the carriage boarded up
Condition as found at North common farm
Rot in Oak floor frame now sitting on 4 x 2 inch box steel sections-the rot was caused mainly because the carriage was sat on 3/4 plywood sheets,we jacked the whole carriage up on 16 Acrow jacks and pulled the rotten ply out,then lowered it on to the lengths of box steel,this will i hope give enough through ventilation to stop any rot
Underneath of 1978 Registered Artic flatbed Trailer
Carriage sitting onAcrows and wood 4x2,waiting for the long job or preparing the large amount of splicing that was needed-i cut up used oak 4 x 4 fence posts that i had collected from a local fence company who were kind enough to leave out for woodstove use but if put through a big saw made good splicing material
6 - Pre-Group Passenger Coach
Record No: 32607
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Owner:
Unknown
Number(s) Carried:
Website:
Previous Number(s):
5155, 11
Location:
Selsey
Number as Built:
155
Address:
Northcommon Farm, Selsey. SZ 853944. nr Chichester. PO20 9BH?
County:
Sussex West
Name Carried:
Website:
Previous Names:
Origin:
Type:
Design:
Gauge:
Livery:
London & North Western Railway
Bogie Sleeper First
Webb SLF
Std
Blu
Statistics:
Builder:
Works Plate / Year
Diagram:
Lot Num:
Status:
Wolverton
/ 1888
D5
Body Only
Pre-Preservation History:
Delivered to the LNWR. Converted in 1909 to Picnic Saloon Third to dia D76. Used in 1917-20 as General Haigs HQ train in France. Withdrawn in 1921
Preservation Movements:
ex mainline, to Middleton-on-Sea 1921, to Isfield 1988, to Selsey after 1996
Other Notes:
Used as Shower/Toilet. By 2018 this had been moved by the owner to their nearby farm at Sidlesham to be used as a summerhouse.
Article from The Railway Gazette 1920
SPECIAL TRAIN FOR THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF IN FRANCE
By the courtesy of Mr. A.R. Trevithick, Carriage Superintendent of the London & North Western Railway, we are enabled to reproduce herewith some photographs with particulars of a special train designed and built at the company's works to provide living accommodation for the Commander-in-Chief of the British Army and his staff in France. We also reproduce a diagram showing the arrangement of the vehicles comprising the train, prior to it leaving England. After its arrival in France the train was re-marshalled, but, generally speaking, the diagram represents its make-up fairly accurately.
On April 10, 1917, the London & North Western Railway Company were asked to provide a train of 10 vehicles for the purpose referred to above. Five of them left Wolverton on May 5, and the remaining five on the 12th of the same month, so that the complete train of 10 vehicles was provided in a month from the date of the order, A further request for four additional vehicles was received later, and these were fitted up and sent out on July 20, 1917.
As shown in the diagram, coach No. 1 comprises a dressing room, bedroom and sitting room for the Commander-in-Chief; No. 2 is a bedroom, bathroom and office for the Chief of Staff and his assistants; whilst Nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 are cars giving sleeping and office accommodation generally. No.6 has an assembly room, and this is placed next to the Officers' Mess Car No. 7.
No. 8 is the kitchen car, and this also contains the electric lighting set and accumulator room. No. 9 is a car for officers' orderlies , servants etc. No. 10 provides more sleeping accommodation, chiefly for junior officers. No. 11 gives a large office, and an officers' bed and bathroom. No. 12 is a telegraph and telephone vehicle, No. 13 is a stores van, and in this is fitted a small locomotive boiler for providing the steam to heat the train when standing, while No. 14 is just an ordinary brake van for stores and other implements.
With the exception of the telephone vehicle and the two brakes, the whole of the cars were converted from 42 ft. by 8 ft. 6 in. bogie picnic saloons, which were taken from stock, and happened to be so arranged so far as lights and doors were concerned that they lent themselves very well to the scheme without a deal of structural alteration.
The train is electrically lighted by a petrol driven lighting set, steam heated by the locomotive when running, and by a boiler fitted in the brake and stores car when standing, and is fitted with the Westinghouse brake.
The telegraph and telephone car was fitted up with the necessary instruments, etc., by the engineering staff of the General Post Office, but the vehicle itself and all furniture, counters, etc. were provided by the railway company. There is a telephone and bell communication throughout the train, and means are provided and cable carried on the telephone car for connecting up to any telegraph and telephone system in proximity to the train.
The interior painting is principally white enamel, while the exterior is finished off in a lead colour. The ventilation has been studied, and there is an ample supply of fans and roof ventilators, while all the drop lights are fitted with louvre and gauze that can be used in opening when lights are dropped.
The fitting up and dispatch of a complete train of this description in the short period of time mentioned above was a matter reflecting very considerable credit upon the London and North Western Railway, their Carriage Superintendent, and the works organisation at Wolverhampton.
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