Sammy
Hello.
Sammy
Julia.
Sammy
Julia
Morning.
Speaker 3
How are you?
Julia
I'm alright, thank you. How are you?
Sammy
Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. Well welcome.
Julia
Fit.
Sammy
Along to the English and Math book podcast.
Julia
Thank you very much for the invite and on it.
Sammy
Went very excited to have you here, so I'll.
Sammy
Do a bit more formal introduction, so we've got with us Julia Ann, who honestly.
Sammy
I can't actually put my finger on how many years ago I encountered her wonderful work. It was at some sort of exam again and I was like this woman is amazing.
Sammy
She knows this exam inside and out. She knows what I'm going through in my classroom trying to get further education maths students with engaged and then I just fangirled nichter resource is usual story and then he paid on the Mr Barton Podcast.
Sammy
And I think I actually got told at some point by Steve Hope, my former boss to stop talking about the podcast because I just kept mentioning it. So I.
Sammy
Like and then and then. She's at this and then she said this.
Sammy
It became it came like the other thing I ever listen to anything else this week so I may have you just listen to Julie again and so I'm delighted to have you here. Welcome Julia.
Julia
Thank you.
Sammy
I just got to explain what you do very well, but people just get the.
Sammy
Feeling that you're just wonderful at math.
Julia
Oh shucks.
Julia
I'm completely embarrassed and completely blushing, and completely embarrassed here.
Sammy
Okay, don't be because when he appeared on that Mr. Boughton Podcast, It was quite possibly career changing for me forever.
Speaker 3
Sammy
She knows what goes on in my classroom. She must be able to stay inside my room.
Julia
Yes, it was a popular podcast as well, so obviously hit a nerve with quite a few people and then most of my work. You know it does come from practical experience of some RCN aggressive kids. Sometimes it just doesn't.
Julia
Don't get the point. Don't see the point. The relevance of it and it is possible to change hearts and minds definitely.
Sammy
Absolutely so was also the same question Julius, I'm going to ask you what is your most memorable lesson?
Julia
I'm all I would have to say it was. I used to team teach at Colchester Institute with auto engineering and welding and.
Julia
I think for me the best maths lesson I ever ever saw ever observed as a younger teacher was the auto mechanic.
Julia
When they did a patent laying so they were they had a sheet of steel and they were laying out patterns for body parts with percentage. You know trying to minimise percentage waste.
Julia
I'm an answer me that the way the guy just explained it, all practical. The boys were enamoured, generally was boys in that class.
Julia
You know they were just on board with it because it was so relevant and pertinent and made a hole he presents, but it was all maths.
Julia
It wasn't vocational little really. It was all Messi could have delivered the same session.
Speaker 3
App.
Julia
Without a car at all.
Julia
But it was just brilliant and then just the way that he did it and it was just very straight forward and very adult and.
Julia
In the way that his language was there, you know nothing was easy, nothing was just considered easy and he was that he was an elderly vocational Scottish tutor, so he just took no nonsense from them and it wasn't listening behaviour management as well. But it was.
Speaker 3
Facebook.
Julia
Yeah, really, really, really.
Julia
Good to be part of that process.
Sammy
I think that's the hate something that Holly and I have talked on. Another episode in that. Very often we're always looking to vocational areas for work and they in bed English and maths.
Sammy
Yeah, but actually we like to embed vocational in our English and maths lessons. Are you know that that's where the magic happens is when we're all singing from the same hymn shape.
Julia
Definitely.
Julia
Definitely, and anyone who knows me knows I hate the word embedding because for me that means as I had read it.
Speaker 3
Julia
Closing so don't embed it. Enhance it causes massive as masses of it there already. So make it even better than it already is. There is no vocational route.
Julia
Um, that doesn't contain a huge element of maths and English, so to say we're embedding it means you also pushing it down, and you know, that's that's the etymology of the word, isn't it?
Julia
Pushing it down and kind of squirrelling it away. Well, no, we should bring it to the full because you can't do the job without having those skills.
Sammy
Well, there we go, got English embedded there, and I say embedded.
Speaker 3
Sammy
Again.
Sammy
This podcast with some English, which is always the.
Sammy
Pitfalls of any maths teachers in my.
Sammy
Experiences were gonna squeeze some aggression.
Julia
Yeah, definitely well. It's just naturally there isn't. You shouldn't have to squeeze it in anywhere, it's it's just naturally part of what you do in any.
Julia
College course tomorrow morning.
Sammy
Well, I don't think I like that.
Speaker 3
Sammy
Because I argue the same when people say to me I can't do math in my lesson, it just it just doesn't happen, yeah.
Julia
Yeah, yeah, and there's this big cultural thing. It is everybody's in a college or in a training provider or the school.
Julia
Sixth form is everybody's problem. If you've got students that need help with their maths or their English is everybody's issue is everybody's problem. It's not isolated to the GCSE maths team or the functional maths.
Julia
Team it's everybody's issue. Everyone should be challenging it and you know, I've worked with number numbers were hundreds and hundreds of vocational staff over the years and an part of their issue is that they don't even know what the the maths curriculum is.
Julia
So asking them that embed or enhance the maths, they've got to know what the curriculum is. So my first message would be to give the mall a set of Corbett Maths revision cards.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Julia
Like you say that visible curriculum or they know what it is and actually they've got the skills then to be able to upskill themselves so this.
Sammy
That's a great.
Sammy
Okay.
Julia
Yeah, it's you know it there. There's a lot of fear. There were going some of avocational teams that and they also tend to teach the way and I'm I'm generalising there tend to teach the way that they were taught, and that's not always appropriate as you know, for some of our learners they need a different approach. Different methodologies, yeah.
Sammy
Yes.
Sammy
Well, this is a combat brings mental Watson. I wanted to talk to you about but just something on that one either.
Sammy
Doing maths in vocational areas. At my former college they were always astounded when I said if you could just start with a bit of rounding every time there's a number, can you just ask them to round it to one significant Figure 1 decimal place and I'm just stretching challenge that another lie about what can't they just do that?
Sammy
Yeah.
Sammy
Sammy
Learn the ****
Julia
Yes, yes, I know it's you know that they can't embed something unless they know what the curriculum is. In the same way that you can't put Megan Teague welding into your classes and lessons actually know what that is and how to do it as well. Making take welding is quite good now.
Sammy
Yeah.
Sammy
I can imagine here with everything, so something that I took from this Mr Bomb podcast I refer to and I will pop it in the description for those that I wanted to listen to.
Sammy
What I'm on about is something that you said that has always stuck with me, which said that math is hard and they need to recognise that there's a struggle to be had, and also that they done it before. So if it looks and feels the same, we're going to get the same result.
Julia
Absolutely, absolutely right. So if you look at the national numeracy.
Julia
They've got to value the qualification. Have the belief that they can do it this time around with you. Maybe that second or third or fourth time. And also they've got a part to play. It's not something that just happens to them. They've got to put some effort in for themselves and we can't just repeat what happened at school or wherever they've been previously because we just get the same result. So if you think about a 1617 year old who's come to college and an adult learners who's coming back into education.
Julia
I've seen enough mass to get a Grade 4. They've seen enough mass to get a great vibe, it just they can't do it all.
Julia
Ohh, I'm so it's all revision. It's all about revision. That's that's what this our Post 16 work is. It's all revision and building on the work that they've seen an practising another again, I'm filamentous practising until they can't get it wrong, not practising until I get it right, just and then moving on practising so much fluency is is huge, just practising till they cannot get it wrong. So yeah, lots and lots of work to be done by the student as well.
Sammy
Yeah, and that leads me on to then you're an wonderful five hours if you wanna just explain what those are people.
Julia
Yeah, so we mapped in AQA asked me to map it into all of their resources. So if you're an AQA centre you've got access to it. It's a revision based curriculum and it's one that I worked always worked for me.
Julia
The five R's are. It's about daily maths and that's something I'm building up an even more now. A little bit of mass everyday, so boat building this practise influence suit in the first hour is 5 minutes, about 5 minutes of recall.
Julia
The AO one factual stuff. The easy stuff, the times tables. The simple calculations. 5 minutes of recall of information at 10 minutes of routine math, so things like Corbett Maths, five a day, things like just mass bread and butter.
Julia
A jumble of maths because in the exam.
Julia
Go get questions you know, not following any particular hierarchy. They will get a jump math. So so 10 minutes of routine maths, 15 minutes focusing on one topic. One of those high high performance topics. The ones that we know frequently occur high frequency topics rather 15 minutes of 1 topic, just just focusing on the topic. Not doing any exam questions. Just revising the topic, then repeating so another 10-15 minutes of repeating.
Sammy
Full
Julia
The topic, but just with exam questions and an looking at exam questions and answers and seeing if you can marry the two together.
Julia
And the last bit, and I think this is going to be huge going forward is Are you ready for the exam so the last one is ready just focusing on exam technique because again look at cheap examiners reports know what they can't do.
Julia
Particularly Welland do that and share that information with them. If you think that the cohort that's going to come to us in September, they haven't done a public exam since their year six Sats that you that's going to be huge for them and we know they make numpty errors. We know that they don't even start some of those.
Speaker 3
Watch.
Julia
Big problem solving questions.
Julia
So there's a huge amount we can do an exam technique, and again, that's not part of the mass curriculum. It's just about knowing how the things are marked.
Sammy
Yeah, and I think what's important to stress in in this approach is at no point are you teaching to the exam because you're teaching a mix of the topics, exam technique and then looking at the topic in detail and then practise in the topic.
Sammy
And it's like a a wrap around care of looking at the top it yeah, but making sure that they are getting exam reading week by week by week.
Julia
Say my Pythagoras lesson would look like anything like what happened at school. It would start up with a photograph.
Julia
I've got this mathematical hooks tablet which is free to everybody, is very popular, so photograph of the design of the Civil park space design and you've got the path going straight forward.
Julia
You've got then turn right to go off to wherever, but everyone takes the shortcut across the grass because they save.
Julia
Save a bit of walking. That's Pythagoras in action, so that would be the start of liquid aguas. Lesson would look very different to school. I'm not repeating, and I'm not just focused on the exam results. I want them to understand it.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Sammy
Yeah, and I think they think the Hawks had black and again I put that in the show notes for everyone and the hooks paddler is something that that came with me because there was an argument at the time when you came up with the whole squad or when I don't know whether it's when you came up with it, but it's when it came into my life was that people were saying no, you need to step away from doing gimmicky thing.
Sammy
And then I arrived with this hoax paddler and everyone. Right now we can't. We can't. It's a gimmick. No, this isn't a gimmick. This is different to a gimmick. It is visually representatives where this match happens in the real world.
Julia
Absolutely.
Speaker 3
Apps.
Julia
Absolute starts up for discussion. It said it's gonna get them interested coz it you know some of them are funny.
Julia
Photographs is a picture of an American baseball team and on the back of their T shirts it was done for π day.
Julia
So once got the number 3, the next ones got 14 and so on, and I don't give them any prompts at all. I do it with masses of teachers now to show them a model how you can use it.
Speaker 3
Who's is it?
Julia
I mean, what can you see? What's that number? You've seen that number before? What is it? What is it in?
Julia
Again, three and a 14 and 15. They do, you know it's just seeing things differently and it comes back to that point.
Julia
About revision revision revision it. Seeing it differently. Second third, fourth time around and hooking them in with something that old. And it's quite interesting. How does that?
Julia
Look, then yes, it does work for me anyway.
Sammy
I think it definitely does work, and that I've been inoculated centre had been an Edexcel centre, had been a Nokia Centre and back.
Sammy
So I'm not actually changed College in this time.
Sammy
Who I am, yeah.
Sammy
Am yeah.
Sammy
Sammy
I just played out.
Julia
It should just be about good math, shouldn't it? Shouldn't be about the awarding body that you use. It shouldn't be, but it's about this. But it's about the support you get from them. Is NIT and the resource is that they provide?
Speaker 3
You're right.
Julia
Well.
Sammy
Yeah, and I think that the issue then comes it when you do change it, somebody's that you you do find teachers end up teaching to the exam because it is slightly different and although the Max hasn't changed the way it represented in the exam has changed the light.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Sammy
The multiple choice questions don't care, and one in the car in the other and teachers get too focused on that sometimes and think you know I'm just going to sit with them and just go through some papers just so they know how the paper looks and feels and then it.
Sammy
Who's that? That's Lily?
Julia
Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's you know, working on exam technique. What you know is very favourable for them in allsorts of other areas of you know things that they're going to face on their on their study programmes. So working on exam technique has a lot of other benefits as well.
Sammy
It's like theology. Remember the star?
Sammy
Questions and these have said conclusion at the bottom.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Julia
Yeah, absolutely.
Julia
Functional maths questions hidden in the trees and embedded into.
Sammy
The juicy fruit and vegetables.
Sammy
Embedded oh
Sammy
Oh
Julia
So it makes mad, doesn't it? But yeah, you can't do that problem solving unless you've got a really.
Julia
Be good fluency. You know you've got the fluency of you always make analogies with with driving. You know you are fluent or driving a car and you don't have to think about it.
Julia
You just do it and you re active new responsive. You know playing football you have to practise the skills.
Julia
That's exactly the same, but the students have to have to do some work for themselves outside the classroom. They can't have had any opportunity really to succeed. Less they do that they have to take. You know, it's not something that happens to them.
Speaker 3
Sammy
No completely completely. So tell us you mentioned that you bought the five hours an with a question what weather the five hours at now what are you doing with the five out there?
Sammy
Yeah, same here.
Sammy
Julia
We had a massive research trial underway and then covert hit, which again nobody's fault whatever but we were trying it because we knew that there was something significant impacts in a couple of centres in a big centres that we tried it with.
Julia
So we wanted to find out the EF sponsored it with the AOC which was fantastic. Big big trial going on and it halted because of covert obviously.
Julia
I am so I then because everyone was kind of online looking to deliver stuff. I I moved it to five hours online so it's now available.
Julia
I've just gone to someone else for some funding for it so it maybe watch this space. It may be that we have a big free offer coming up.
Speaker 3
Hello.
Julia
That's my intentions with it, but at the moment I've worked with Emma Bell and with integrated the Focus 15 approach that she has, which is brilliant.
Julia
Grimsby Centre for Excellence there.
Julia
We've integrated it and it's an online offer now for receipts for functional maths, so you can have a tablet that will give your students work to do on a Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday and Friday.
Julia
It's all very very lots of games, puzzles, videos, things for them to read, exercises that mark themselves so it enables the student with no usernames and passwords, just a pin code to get in and do some maths. There's no excuses, at least half an hour everyday.
Julia
I'm a good primary pathway as well, which looks really quite interesting. Developing a homemade pathway as well, because it's just about good maths and fun maths and and that's with the purpose for the.
Julia
For the the actual kind of age set is suitable for year 11 as well. For some I don't like the term catch up maths, but just the sort of good maths, but in a in a variety of media and using public using tablets and mechanism. So it's it's going great guns at the moment, but as I say.
Julia
Is it?
Julia
Sammy
Left
Sammy
Yep.
Julia
An yeah, we might have some news in a couple of weeks. Fingers crossed.
Speaker 3
Sammy
Well, I'll tell you what I'll get in touch with Emma today.
Sammy
And I'll book him around for a few weeks and we'll see we'll.
Julia
Yeah.
Sammy
See if we can finish this choreo.
Sammy
Yeah, she's a.
Sammy
Julia
Superstar so yeah, and it's it's nice that we work so well together and have integrated it. Yeah, so yeah, that's where we are.
Sammy
But I think that's true for all math teachers, I think everybody.
Sammy
Just at the moment there's just such a collective buzzin FA about everyone working together and sharing, and I saw your live chat with bars as well as an I just think that this is this is the moment I think this is the moment where which making changes in anything.
Sammy
Yeah.
Sammy
Speaker 3
Yes.
Julia
Yeah, definitely collaborating so much more. I mean, I thought March last year? Oh well, that's it. I'm done. I'm finished.
Julia
I'm gonna have to go back to school or college. Or you know what? What's where's my place now in all of this patchily? It's been, it's been superb. It really has.
Julia
As I was lucky I did a lot of work on the BBC Bitsize daily stuff. So for maths I was really pleased with the secondary stuff that we managed to get out for that.
Julia
But then since then, this constellations have come along, so I met people like Mars, met you more, had had very interesting conversations with it, with a real diverse range of people that I probably would not have met before. I didn't realise I needed chair yoga in my life until Steph Wilkinson came along.
Sammy
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Julia
An MBA PS movement is connected with with a lot more local people, so that's been really good, so I've met.
Julia
Virtually, um, so many more people. Um, cause I am a real people person. I like being out on the train and visiting different colleges and things and I was really missing it. But actually I've just got a different dimension to it. Now she's been brilliant.
Sammy
Yeah, that's wonderful. And yet will just big shout out to you. Which consulting in the ETF with AAP Connect project cause that's that's where all this is coming from as well as the JFE movement as well.
Julia
Oh yes.
Sammy
Definitely.
Sammy
Sammy
So I think I think, yeah, this. I think this is this is the change that Fe maybe didn't know it needed.
Julia
Definitely, definitely yeah. After whole heartedly agree I haven't got.
Julia
As much time for that as I would like, I think that you know there's just so much to it and it's just you know, exponentially expanding isn't.
Sammy
Idiot.
Julia
It is just brilliant, brilliant to see and and there's something other people there. You know people like yourself. Mars just took two fine examples of some brilliant practitioners doing a really good job.
Speaker 3
Sammy
But thank you, but will bizarrely, always flies this, but we've come to the end of our time, so if you could just another exit, go.
Sammy
Wow.
Sammy
Sammy
If you could just.
Sammy
Give a shout out to your Twitter handle on your website so people know where to find you.
Julia
I will do it, said Julia Smith, Rapid Twitter at Test maths, TSS man and it's fivehours.co.uk
Sammy
Lovely thank you for being with its regular.
Julia
Thank you for the invite, take care.
Speaker 3
Bye.