Sammy
OK, so welcome along to the enm booth and today's guest is the wonderful Catherine Cookson, who very proud today has become a friend since lockdown, and in one of these wonderful words where we've never actually met, but we feel like we know each other really well and Catherine is an awesome and inspiring math teacher constantly innovating. Tick Tock is her new media man. I'm excited to find out more and so welcome Catherine.
Kathryn
Thank you, thank you Sammy lovely to meet you well only to not meet you.
I.
Kathryn
Yes, in a strange place, isn't it? This locked down but yeah, met some really lovely lovely people.
Sammy
Yeah, we have the cat. Will we start with the same question? Tell us about your most memorable lesson.
Kathryn
Well, um, probably my most memorable lesson was when I just started started out with doing my research on the thinking environment and.
Kathryn
What and how I would actually put that you know, to those learners and I actually, I was actually doing a cover lesson for this particular lesson, and.
Kathryn
I was thinking I was a bit. I've always get anxious about it because it's a new way of working and whenever you're doing something you it's always of course is that causes me anxiety anyway, so it's it's.
Kathryn
It's what what sort of response is you gonna get from those learners? And there were a lot of level one groups of properly from ungraded through to grade twos and.
Sammy
Google.
Kathryn
And so so first we started off with a stack of cards which I gate, which I let them choose from. They could choose the an their names of even Primorje Square key factors. And then I gave them. They're in a sort of horseshoe already, and so gay that they had a choice to take those and then ask them to choose their a memorable number. And we only we can only choose two and we chose 7 and 25 now.
Kathryn
Kathryn
Kathryn
There was a bit of fun about history this class coz I I talked a couple of them in the previous year.
Kathryn
One was particularly not particularly nice, and the other one was. It was really lovely and what happened was.
Sammy
Full
Kathryn
Another student came anyways. It's Catherine. It's it's teacher Catherine Coz I've been another Catherine in the class and lovely and it taught him three years.
Kathryn
Before so he ohh yeah.
Kathryn
Like Catherine, you know he.
Kathryn
Said he sat and sat down.
Kathryn
All were doing so called time because I.
Sammy
Have always liked that.
Kathryn
Full time this it was really funny but he he put on those other learners who have less.
Kathryn
You want me so interested because he was interested in me? Coz it coz he was trying.
Sammy
Yeah.
Kathryn
To chat with everything you know.
Kathryn
So that was interesting, but it was the I actually went through the components of the thinking environment that breach, appreciation, attention and we had to take it in turns to speak and then they will have to say something about that ain't one of those numbers.
Kathryn
So we chose 725 and talk about it. They have multiple what that meant and then you could see their thinking and each other listening to each other.
Kathryn
In case and they're able to recreate them in the circle, the one that was.
Sammy
What?
Kathryn
Oh, it's about passive aggressive, so they believe she decided she didn't want to say anything, but she kept interrupting others get so I know he asked about Olivia so she was.
Sammy
If you could.
Kathryn
She actually turned it. Some, turned her around in in the learning and then they went off in pairs to talk about angles and and what they want in their going round trying to find the answers.
Kathryn
And Oh my God it what difference and say my starting point on for angles was really really strong because we had all the information that they had in their hair.
Kathryn
Adds that they did in one minute, so an sort of talks to to each other and then at the end I got them to do an appreciation. So love each other and I did it with a learner and and she said at the end.
Sammy
Black
Kathryn
Because I was, I was my recent of an equal equal with her. I say so total that mommy issues with English and how difficult I found it and have difficulty find reading the questions even now and she said oh I said, how did that feel for you? The lesson just I really like talking to you.
Sammy
Oh
Kathryn
It's a nice and everybody, so everyone out skipping.
Kathryn
It was just amazing.
Kathryn
And that was due to thinking environment processes, so yeah.
Sammy
Oh, that sounds wonderful. So just finished, says he might not be familiar. Could you just give us a brief overview of the thinking environment and what it looks like in a classroom?
Sammy
Why is lettuce did that?
Kathryn
So getting them to school speak in turn without interrupting an. Sometimes they find that difficult, so they might, you know, get a wooden spoon and hold it.
Kathryn
If you've got the wooden spoon you allowed to talk and so so they go round and turn and they missed their turn, that that's better missed and they can't, you know, have another turn. Although this other girl seemed to think she could.
Kathryn
Kathryn
And to be honest, I let that go because you know, she just heard talking have vocalising and verbalising maths meant so much.
Kathryn
Tell me because I knew what she'd been through before.
Kathryn
Am I just some so so you can walk so you can work in pairs where you're just talking about what you're thinking, but you you take it in turns to speak so you can either give them a minute each to speak and then not allowed to interrupt each other an and then all they can just say now what do you think?
Kathryn
And they go take it in turns to say what they think. And then you're not allowed to interrupt into, as you say.
Kathryn
Or do you think? And that's probably the most important aspect there. There's No Fear of interruption, so even if they pause.
Sammy
Yeah.
Kathryn
You still thinking and they can then say what they want to say so.
Sammy
I think that's the thing, isn't it pulls.
Sammy
Giving them that.
Sammy
Time pulls that bit from the back of their mind, but they might not have got till otherwise. Yes yes.
Kathryn
And and we've been doing it in as a collaborative thinking spaces with with other teachers and Anne, but this was sort of my task to do it with the students and it was really scary.
Kathryn
You know, then, and I had to sort form some sort of measure to that as well.
Kathryn
Because it was part of my research project.
Kathryn
I created measure and in the end that that in itself was really interesting and I used some of those anecdotes like I really liked listening to you or you know that things like that and but the the the key was.
Kathryn
I used the incisive questions and that really and we did private interviews with the students where you saw the firm asking them what is it that stopping you from learning? How about maths.
Kathryn
Hello.
Kathryn
Kathryn
The office this year have been very different to the answers last year. The answers last year were.
Kathryn
Ohh yeah, it's me.
Kathryn
I've I've stopped myself from learning maths and you know they were taking responsibility for themselves this year. Had quite a few people, not it's not being part of my research, but I still wanna use the questions you know where it's been COVID cave would stop me or so that you know whether it that's an excuse or that has genuinely stock them. I don't know. You know we didn't get that far because I didn't go into depth.
Sammy
Yes.
Sammy
Sierra
Sammy
That that I'm not fascinating, though, isn't it? Because I think I've had stopped a lot of things, but I can imagine if I was a learner coming to college and I've not sat my GCSE, I probably would say that covered it stopped me cause I don't think I had a fair chance to sit my exam.
Kathryn
The.
Kathryn
Definitely, and I think it has affected a lot. Lots of people, but there's a. There's something about an intimacy.
Kathryn
On line with ****** especially is 1 to one that you can. You always write write on the computer with them and yeah, and then you know that they can see what you're saying, whether it was in the classroom, you you don't know this thing.
Sammy
Yes.
Kathryn
What you're saying? You know, because it's there's a big space between you an at the student and the and the whiteboard or whatever it is you.
Kathryn
Here.
Kathryn
Kathryn
Using an that can be quite as of yet I don't know it just thought about that the other day when I was with the students and there is a little bit of incidence. Intimacy isn't there getting, you know, when you're right up close to the computer with them.
Sammy
Yeah, I think there's something in that I think in the classroom as well, but that if you do have math anxiety and the learners you've just described to me, we would call them you to choose unclassified to great tunes.
Sammy
And generally they do have a lot of maths anxiety, and if you're in a room with twenty other P.
Kathryn
Sammy
Paul Young anxieties of already heightened so you probably were engaging contributors much, whereas if you're online, I'm certainly finding that unable to connect with them a lot more and help them with their anxiety.
Kathryn
He definitely.
Sammy
It's fascinating, so tell us about your research and you've mentioned it a couple of times. How did it come about?
Kathryn
Well, we're doing this support the centres for excellence maths we I'm one of the researchers at Weston College and last year I decided to do the thinking environment. Nobody ever researched that in the classroom.
Kathryn
So I'm not the findings on that were immense. I mean the reactions we had from the students from using this, and I really notice it when I'm asking them incisive questions at their their change, their change of behaviour towards you.
Sammy
Hello.
Kathryn
But before it's a yes or no right now and I I'm I'm to blame for that when I do tutorial with them, I'll come on now we need look. Let's look at your target yet you need to do that last year target.
Kathryn
And go away, you didn't.
Sammy
Bored.
Kathryn
I don't let them speak, you know, and then with the incisive questions you just stop talking and you let them speak and.
Kathryn
You can hear the change of their tone and they actually open. Goodness me, they they can actually talk and Lucy's sister sayings like and actually it's my mum and dad, they really support me. Could you speak?
Kathryn
To them it's like my God.
Kathryn
They they're able once they articulate themselves, they're really able to tell you, but they they find that difficult to articulate themselves.
Kathryn
Kathryn
Sammy
And yeah, I think it's funny.
Kathryn
Sorry.
Sammy
No, you find. I think it's an interesting point that that.
Sammy
They do struggle to articulate themselves and then they struggle to articulate their challenges in that as well.
Kathryn
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yeah, and I think as soon as.
Kathryn
That able to articulate themselves in this process of doing rounds where they get into a regular actions of talking really does help them.
Kathryn
And even reflecting now on that, I don't do that enough now in the in the lessons they I try and talk to everybody when they come into the classroom, we or online. But I don't do enough of this.
Kathryn
You know making them feel uncomfortable and it does make them feel uncomfortable, but they have to start feeling uncomfortable to get comfortable again.
Kathryn
With their math, yeah.
Kathryn
No, I I make.
Kathryn
Yes.
Kathryn
Kathryn
You guys, it mean, I don't know.
Sammy
I don't think it's made. I think it's it's.
Sammy
Uncomfortable, this comes from the.
Sammy
Realisation of weather app with Emma.
Sammy
It's not that they're uncomfortable with their markets, the uncomfortable Ness that they realise how far away from whether he should be with their maths, maybe.
Kathryn
Yeah.
Kathryn
Yeah, yeah, so I'm so yeah it said it was a difficult one to measure because it. What's the measure, you know?
Kathryn
Were you know the the results at the end of the day that that's what the colleges want, the you know you have.
Kathryn
You had increased results. Well, I probably had a bit more engagement, but has that has that related to results? You know, not on this small scale. No, but hopefully the longer term.
Kathryn
You know that that's the outcome, isn't it? May be a better attendance.
Kathryn
And.
Kathryn
You know, that's that's what you know, that's that was last year's project anyway, but this year's project I've been doing the ratio table, so I've been.
Kathryn
That's where the tick talks have come from.
Kathryn
He's saying concrete and to to sort of establishing what what is the problem? How can we put that into a ratio table?
Kathryn
What's and I could open ended question contact contextualising it and then looking at solving the problem using that.
Kathryn
Ratio table that you've created.
Kathryn
So I've been working on that with with lower grade learners and that's been tough too because you realise their proportional reasoning.
Kathryn
They haven't. Many of them don't have that, and to recognise that in the 1st place is difficult to finance through even the starting points we have.
Sammy
All.
Kathryn
We're having to bring back for those lower attaining learners cause they're thinking they're telling me or I sort of get it. But there not really understanding how they.
Kathryn
What is ratio tables all about? Proportional reasoning is all about, and that's the bed of maths, isn't it?
Sammy
Yeah, I think there's something in that as well in that.
Sammy
You have tried to make it real life and relevant for them, and it's still not hooking and sticking and so where.
Sammy
Where did that? Where did that gap happen and how has how has their maths been able to continue with that gap per day?
Kathryn
Well, I suppose it hasn't, it's it's a. It's a. It's like that foundation that's not there. Then it just bricks keep coming crumbling down and they don't know how to cap whenever they feel they're never going to be good at it. Possibly I don't.
Kathryn
So.
Kathryn
Kathryn
You know you would like to carry on with this research because it's so interesting to see that, and it's almost like saying Ohh, God has this failed.
Kathryn
Has this research failed or no cause I was just speaking to my actual research. My research tutor about it and that's it's not about failing it.
Kathryn
It's something you found and that's that's a true finding and it's irrelevant finding Tuesdays when she got back yet steps to.
Sammy
Fat
Kathryn
To find the what really is needed for those learners on the ungraded scales.
Sammy
Yeah, and I think for our ungraded learners in further education you know they they have failed and I always say to my learners who I I have.
Sammy
I have two to four grade learners this year now, so you haven't failed because you achieved a grade. You know you just didn't achieve the growth that you needed to progress, but I think for those ungraded learners, there's so much work to one pick there.
Sammy
If you have failed and we need to now start from the very beginning and build everything back up again.
Kathryn
But that's quite tough, isn't it? When you're in there in an environment of used shoes?
Kathryn
Well, how do you separate those when they can't hardly count? You know, that's tricky.
Sammy
Yeah it is. It completely is an I think there's something in as well. I saw a tweet today as well of the.
Sammy
It was someone's tracking table for students that have been at times tables and I'm not interested in the age of the learners, but what I found fascinating was that in the tracking of the learners during the times, tables are absolutely fine. Everything in their files and their nine times tables until they got to 4 * 9.
Sammy
And it was something on the symbol in there in about.
Sammy
They can do it if it by Broughton by repetition.
Sammy
But when you ask the question outside of it, the application of that knowledge just isn't there and it how do we? How do we build that knowledge other than doing repetition and it? It's really tricky both.
Kathryn
Yeah yeah and then and then I think this.
Kathryn
Is where the mastery approaches coming in where they're trying to use the manipulatives.
Kathryn
Using context manipulative, so they've got something to hook onto and hooks that it's so important they have missed those hooks when they're young.
Kathryn
Yeah.
Kathryn
Kathryn
Yeah, I'm trying to build on what should have happened in the primary school an I did see it really good website the other day at that was amazing for primary school and I like to do a little plug here because.
Sammy
Yeah.
Sammy
Worker she can I start TV, show it with me to fight.
Kathryn
Oh yeah, yeah, that's the one. Oh well, can't find it now. But anyway, I couldn't believe.
Sammy
Will put it will put it in the discount don't.
Sammy
Worry, we'll put the link in with description.
Kathryn
No, I thought I found it. Hang on it. It's starting points now.
Kathryn
Yeah, and they primary these primary maths.
Sammy
Yeah.
Sammy
Kathryn
Resources are really.
Kathryn
Good, well I thought they were because I love colour and an eye.
Kathryn
Minecraft, I thought would have been meaning.
Kathryn
He didn't need it.
Kathryn
Yeah, so I might have had that when I was younger.
Kathryn
I'm not that not realised because I've got the hooks already, you know, but those learners it's amazing, isn't it?
Kathryn
To not have that, but they they could do with going back to those simplistic questions. Where have you got you got manipulative sort of red and yellow?
Kathryn
These ones, positive ones negative and they cancel out each other to get zero really liked that.
Sammy
I think that's it.
Sammy
I don't think that's just the lower grade learners as well. Certainly all my learners negative numbers often. Often our concept that is just so challenging, especially when you come to the operations of the men.
Sammy
They come to within further education with every trick in the book. So 2 + 2 negatives make a positive.
Sammy
Are smiley faces are triangles and Fe teachers. We have to know all these things to piece together their knowledge of where they've come from as well.
Kathryn
Exactly and dismantle some of its own, unfortunately.
Sammy
Yeah, I gotta Brooklyn's about fractions in the inherit kissing Play crossover cross multiply. Tick the box.
Sammy
All these methods that we then have to learn to then be able to let you sit on pick it. Sometimes when it's not quite concrete in there.
Kathryn
Yeah, definitely.
Kathryn
Lee
Sammy
So tell us about your tick tocks then how how did they come about.
Sammy
What made you try to stop?
Kathryn
Well, it was part of the research really. I was thinking and that got taken over a bit by my other.
Kathryn
Another part of the college wanted to do the social media.
Kathryn
But I still.
Kathryn
Used it, I still wanted to do that.
Kathryn
If it was.
Kathryn
Kathryn
It talks in mine and because it gives some relevance to what the lesson is. So after a lesson I might just do a little tip talk about the lesson.
Kathryn
I'm not sure how much they're looking at it.
Sammy
Boo.
Kathryn
But enjoy doing it and it's like.
Kathryn
A revision of what we've done, and I've used a ratio tables in them as well, so trying to sort of well, I've got them walking around the college and we mentioned how far it was round the college estimated it was 500 metres around and how long would that take them to go round? And then we developed the ratio take.
Kathryn
People about how to get to the speed instead of using speed and distance overtime. I just created this ratio table and then I put it all in the tik T.O.K for them as well so it just gives them another something else to love.
Sammy
Wow.
Kathryn
You know, so I took photos and and so they can see the relevance of what I'm doing and and how there you know you know so I can see their responses to it, but um.
Kathryn
Now I'm still mad.
Sammy
Shut up.
Kathryn
Sammy
Yeah, I'm not building those Connexions following you are connecting their learning to the real world, and you are connecting their learning to their social media world as well.
Sammy
So I think it's really exciting that you trying it. I think it you play with your braver than me coz I'm I'm a bit quiet on the video.
Sammy
I never spent.
Kathryn
In videos out there, but actually when it's your you doing it and you know what they've done already in the class, there's nothing like you doing it.
Kathryn
I miss when I tell you what when, why I went into a bun cover lesson among I couldn't stop looking at them because he always crashing talk if they had it like it or they don't like it, so some of them.
Sammy
Yes.
Kathryn
It's awful.
Kathryn
Kathryn
You know it's a bit like the.
Kathryn
Silent video, I don't say anything in there, but they can.
Kathryn
See it happened yet, so you know I'm developing.
Kathryn
I made toast in the day. Well yesterday I made some toast and I would have been doing fractions.
Kathryn
So I thought why I'm gonna do this. I'm going to actually do it with them in front of Maine and I thought, well, I'm gonna make a lot of.
Kathryn
Toast and ruin it so.
Kathryn
And then cut the pieces into into court. You know, so that the IT was 1/4 plus 1/3. So I created equivalent fractions and you have to look at my tik T.O.K.
Kathryn
Sammy
Wow, yeah that sounds amazing.
Kathryn
Yeah, yeah yeah. Whether it was or not.
Kathryn
Wondering how it helps them without adding fractions, but it's just using not using tricks. It's using proportional reasoning rather than true.
Kathryn
Thanks to to get them to understand where why you add fractions together in that way. And yeah, it's getting to the bottom of the Cos.
Sammy
Rap.
Kathryn
Otherwise, I'm not gonna understand any of it cause I don't know the difference between the multiplying the ad. Otherwise they do the same thing.
Sammy
Yeah, absolutely, it's got.
Sammy
It all sounds fascinating. Do you want to just give a shout out to your Twitter handle and you tick tock?
Sammy
Handle so people can find you.
Kathryn
Yeah, it's at cooker one. Or is it something that Catherine Cocker one, my Twitter?
Kathryn
And I don't know what my AM.
Sammy
You don't know you take. This will pop it in the description to people sometimes yeah.
Kathryn
Hello, thank you, thank you.
Kathryn
What?
Sammy
No thank you. Thank you for talking to us today.
Sammy
Catherine, it's been lovely to catch it.
Kathryn
Anna has yet indeed, and I'd like to.
Kathryn
Interview you one day.
Sammy
Will.
Sammy
They will say alright, Kathryn, thank you very much. Have a great day.
Kathryn
Yeah thanks a lot. Sammy bye bye.