Transcript
Hollie
English and maths based mining Tony Barnes and this week I'm joined by the Fabulous Johnny K.
Jonny
Hello, how are you?
Hollie
Hello I'm good. Thank you how are you?
Jonny
Very well, all the better for being described as fabulous his first time for everything.
Hollie
Wow, you are we.
Hollie
Spoke about this already, but I'm you know I'm a huge fan so I was fangirling when there when you agreed to come on.
Jonny
Very much.
Hollie
So.
Hollie
When do you just want to?
Hollie
Give a brief introduction about yourself training.
Jonny
Yeah, at all. For those who've unaware of May or what I'm about or away or anything like that. My name is Jonathan Kay. Johnny K.
Jonny
I'm head of teaching them and then assessment at Newcastle College in the North East. Formerly head of English and Maths today at a couple of colleges and their leading, this expert for one of the main example.
Hollie
Fabulous thank you. So I'm I'm gonna start in strong with a question because I'm sure that you've seen quite a few interesting things in your time where you been teaching. So can you pinpoint a most memorable lesson that you've had?
Jonny
Trade in war.
Jonny
Most memorable for good of the father realised flexible 11 of either so used to I used to work in a secondary school and secondary school trained and I was I was teacher of English. Probably the most memorable lesson of Arthur was joined school on supplier. Worked abroad for a little bit. Join the school on.
Jonny
Yeah.
Jonny
Hollie
Could be anything good or bad.
Jonny
Reply I've got a permanent job and there was a classified ad maybe 2-3 supply teachers saw them through the end of year nine as the way then and then right the way through year 10 and there were groups are borderline kids. There were lots going on outside the classroom. Last lesson I had with him where we did. We did some sort of recap on Jekyll and Hyde and smashed everything that I throw at them and then ended the lesson. It was like we had a solid 5 minute party of sort of cupcake.
Jonny
Cakes and fizzy pop and all that sort of thing, so probably not the most professional answer that you've had an will just.
Jonny
I think this the endearing memory if taken them on the sharing going on this journey with them and Dan really seeing the progress in the mushrooming that stuck with ever since.
Jonny
I think.
Hollie
But I think that's what is fat, isn't it? You know it. This is what we were about as teachers, which is being part of the learner journey.
Hollie
Whether that's you know their own journey from starting at school, all starting at college into supporting them towards the end of it where they may be.
Hollie
Change career path, but for us it's seeing that development and that understanding in lessons isn't it?
Speaker 3
Jonny
Yeah, and I think I used to sort of bump into them every now and again. You know I was getting public transport to and from work and then I want to holiday couple years ago and bumped into one of the train station and he had an apprenticeship where going to Rolls Royce, Anne and I was just so sorry for that.
Speaker 3
Wow.
Jonny
I was pathetic, like. I mean I was. I was nearly in tears. That was sort of talking.
Jonny
To the wife afterwards.
Jonny
Really sort of business grade for now, so that's probably the best and probably the the worst one. When I was actually thinking about the other day, I tried to do some sort of sensory lesson.
Speaker 3
Simple.
Jonny
I was training and I was. I thought we really good idea if it would get loads.
Jonny
Things that the students would have a play about waving in sort of, um, another feed another go off and sort of like mystery box style and then do some writing.
Jonny
Some portraits and creative writing on it. And I had, so I think I had like wet pasta suppressed the past. The same boiler been left to cool, I'd leaves and I had Jelly in it like the pastor went all over the car, but the Jelly was all up the wall.
Speaker 3
Oh
Jonny
And then the men all at the end, said, you know, those leaves, that yes, you did. You did wash them, didn't yet cousin or do I need to?
Jonny
And apparently it's like dead animals like urinate on it. Kids can be poisoned for came away like I might kill someone.
Speaker 3
List.
Speaker 3
Oh God.
Jonny
Be class.
Hollie
Top tip, if you're gonna bring losing guys you know, make sure you.
Jonny
Wash them. Just don't bother believes so this.
Jonny
This was like the car crash opening to TMI. TMI teaching career, which I'm sure your listeners a are absolutely.
Jonny
That's the reason area.
Hollie
That's it, that's a really interesting thing to do though, like I've never done that.
Hollie
I'm taking things in a sensory.
Hollie
I've never even thought to do that for a creative writing lesson. That's that's really good idea.
Jonny
Or choose I would choose.
Jonny
Carefully, the items that you take. But yeah, the leaves the Jelly in the pasta as much as it was a good idea.
Jonny
In practise, the cleaners were not my friend for a while after that.
Hollie
They thought the thought of just arrested the classroom again. See, you know anxiety.
Hollie
So Johnny, you've got a lot of exciting things coming up. You've got a book coming out soon.
Jonny
I have yeah books called improving English and maths in further education. Practical Guide available wherever you would buy a book. Amazon Waterstones.
Jonny
It's through open Uni press. It's available on their website as well and comes out on the 25th of May.
Hollie
And what was the inspiration behind that book? I know we've discussed it a little bit, but for the listeners, what? What kind of things can we expect to see?
Jonny
And the probably inspiration beyond. I've been very, very fortunate to work for some inspirational people in my time and also work alongside them as we talked about a guy called Jamie, Tom and were trained with the Newcastle Uni many years ago.
Jonny
Jenny Webber, nan. Just people like that way you read the book and you're getting that little burst of Siri but you're also getting that practical approach that you can put into your lesson.
Jonny
Just in a couple of minutes you also you see something on assessment or feedback or question and within a really short space of time you're able to to use those strategies and your teaching gets better and kids learn more and you know you say more progress and are able achieve just that little bit more support.
Jonny
So I think it was reading those books in thinking, you know, I'd love to be able to do something like that, and that's been a long term thing. And then, as I say, work, I'm assuming the inspirational leaders.
Jonny
That I've worked with and alongside over the last couple years I've been very fortunate. They've got some fantastic ideas and I've been able to steal them, so it was.
Jonny
It was really put those ideas together in and talking about you know what can leadership look like in English and maths.
Jonny
What teaching strategies can you use? What in things for teachers, things, for leaders, and things that can be applied very quickly that I have seen and work with people who have seen very quick improvement.
Hollie
And I think it's a really exciting to read actually, but I think it's teachers we we always looking for new things aren't, well, you know we know what things we've tried and we are always looking for new things.
Hollie
And I think that when they're quick wins, teachers can really resonate with the more Cartland because they're just able to quickly glance at something and use in the classroom.
Jonny
Absolutely, and I mean, I've worked for a couple of gaffer who regularly talk about.
Jonny
The low hanging fruit you know go after the quick wins go after the low hanging fruit and then some of the big things will take care of themselves.
Jonny
Obviously, not always, always be saying rate today. There are much improved on what we say for GCSE and functional skills pass rates each year, but I think just with, well, maybe always looking for that silver bullet you know for that for that big massive remedy that's going to come along and it's going to resolve loads of problems, whereas the reality is if you just doing the basics, well, everything.
Speaker 3
Jonny
So there you will see improvement. You will see progress.
Hollie
Yeah, can consistency is key is in it for love for learners. In Fe you know routines and rituals are huge.
Hollie
People tend to argue no. Roll their eyes when you say them, but actually for a lot of our learners this is there any kind of consistency or regular thing happening for some of them in their lives?
Hollie
So being able to come into college and know that it's a safe place or coming in knowing that they are going to have a really great lesson in an English classroom and could be the silver lining.
Jonny
Birthday yeah absolutely. And I think FA more than anywhere else.
Jonny
I've said this many times. So many people Fe is more about relationships than any other sector in education or out.
Jonny
And then then I've ever come across. It is absolutely about getting annoyed. Students get to know what makes him tick, getting to know specifically how you can help them.
Jonny
Trying to undo those misconceptions and just figuring him out. And if you consistently open up. I mean, even if you know if you as a start, even if you consistently bad, at least we've got a good starting point.
Jonny
You know what I mean? We can move on from that. Then we can. We can learn to be consistently.
Hollie
Yeah.
Jonny
Also, I think outstanding practise really is just being good every single day, and if you consistent you'll be consistently.
Speaker 3
Hollie
Yeah, and and I agree.
Hollie
It is all about relationships. I think when I first came to this sector, I was thinking, you know this, this is gonna be great.
Hollie
The kids will be bit wild easy astic cover, but now was quite naive to think about. The set was coming into and I quickly learned that relationships.
Hollie
Where were the key to being successful and it's it's about having the right balance, isn't it? The balance of knowing how to engage students know when to come down with discipline at the right times.
Hollie
As you know, we can't just constantly throw things out into the disciplinary process or the you know, the consequence system, because for a lot of our learners, that's no good.
Hollie
You know that's.
Hollie
That's just no no help towards them that they're just going to work through an air. Their time at college or that year in a negative light and.
Hollie
We're not will not be inflexible then are we? And then that doesn't help to develop the.
Hollie
Relationships that we have.
Jonny
Yeah, absolutely. But then at the same time, if you don't properly deal with challenging behaviour orders in the class or switch off so it's about knowing how and when to manage behaviour in in the right way.
Speaker 3
Jonny
And a big big chunk of the book is about that, not just in terms of students. When we say challenging behaviours, because I think it's about, you know, finding out why won't it ahead of English and maths in the first post that I have the role.
Jonny
An we work to develop a process that wasn't just sort of punitive. It was a celebratory as well, and there were lots of stages that investigated the behaviour before a final decision was made.
Jonny
So we use things like panels. We spoke the parents we spoke to children. We formalised all that and we saw people down and said, you know you, you keep exhibiting this behaviour.
Speaker 3
No.
Jonny
Why is that? What can we do to support you to stop it? And it's you know things would come out.
Jonny
The students would say, actually, you know when I look at the page all the letters are jumbled up and you find out.
Hollie
Yeah.
Jonny
Get a 1718 year old. Junior will tell you for the first time they told anybody in the life I think I'm.
Jonny
Selecting and also I've already struggled to sort of keep attention because this is going on and we were able to keep more students in the building in the classroom and focused on it as well as offering the rewards for shoes as well.
Jonny
So yeah, and lots and lots of good stuff. Hopefully that fancy Nick over the Earth. It's in the book.
Hollie
And when you know when we're talking about these types of things, I think we.
Hollie
This is different perceptions I think from for maybe different people within within the sector. But we do have. I do feel like we have to give our learners Crediton ownership because they were training them to be adults, aren't we?
Hollie
You know they still require some support in, you know. People say well, they're only 16, but we have to start that process of giving them ownership of their learning, giving them ownership behaviour and working through that and asking those questions. What while? Why asking them, you know, not necessarily.
Hollie
Ring mum and dad. You know why? I think he's doing this that could be part of the process, yeah?
Hollie
But what, why you know why is this happening? And I think that you're right that there are a lot of things that come out within those honest conversations that they haven't come out at school.
Hollie
And I think that because they're treated more like an adult when they get into college and there's that separation, they're more likely to speak towards like adults and open up and someone think. Well, actually this is my next or my only chance that I might be able to redo this again, whether it's English or Everett, it's, you know, restarting on a fresh page at a new place.
Jonny
Yeah, well, I mean, for me it's it's. I think it's about making sure that you've got a consistency in approach an.
Jonny
I think it's also about communicating what your expectations are, but also explaining why, and that's probably the biggest difference in terms of behaviour management that you'll see from the school or college is.
Jonny
It's just sort of understood generally in schools, for writer, for wrong. If a teacher says that someone is going to happen, it just happens because the teacher said it, and that it.
Jonny
Where is in Fe that they required and sort of feel that they need that little bit of expectation and the sort of if then.
Jonny
But then if you do this, then this alarm. But if you don't do this then this alarm. So I'm going to give you the freedom, but there would be the consequences if you do something you know you shouldn't do.
Jonny
And by the way, will look at what the rules should be together and will clarify that together. And if you do the things that are right and if you do the things that we agree that the things that you should be doing, these are the rewards that you'll get.
Speaker 3
No.
Hollie
Do you think that we we reward learns enough?
Jonny
Anne.
Jonny
It's a bit I would say yes, we do reward them enough in terms of praise in terms of the.
Jonny
Sort of the words that we use in the actions that we use. I think so throughout the sector, I think were very complimentary about our students.
Jonny
Think positive towards our students in terms of maybe the way that they would like to be rewarded. Not always.
Jonny
And part of that is money. Part of that is funding, but I think you'll find that the world over and something something I talked about in the book of you talk about the sort of the figurative Steven of ideas is also the very physical statement of items from location areas, which I'm I'm saddened.
Hollie
Yeah.
Jonny
Stealing of item.
Jonny
Jonny
Probably a little bit disappointed to admit here that I've done, you know, talk to your heads of vocational areas and sort of Satan.
Jonny
You know when they go to trade shows when they go to conferences, when they go to the any sort of events will get freebies will get.
Jonny
I'll still get scissors forget hammers will get spirit levels and just aware that I I got round it when I was running that department.
Hollie
Yes.
Jonny
I say it in the book just wants those things in. Just say you know you mind if I have these things from you an just use those to reward. These students have been been excellent.
Jonny
Excellent over the last few weeks just to say well done son, I've got this this time.
Jonny
And they will be over the moon and all the joy and also link. Yet to that positive experience that the sea in the vocational area.
Hollie
And yeah, start sailing linking vacation areas, showing that you're working across curriculum, which is a huge thing, isn't it? You know, depending on how your your college works in terms of the dispersion of English and maths.
Hollie
And that can also kind of stop that cross cross curricular building of relationships with other people in the college community content.
Jonny
Yeah, yeah, and it's again, I'm sorry it's all about the book was just getting stuff out and about because.
Jonny
A lot of the times for students, whether it's true or not, structurally, where it's sure not logistically in the way that you work in the buildings that you work in.
Jonny
Students have a very, very clear separation between vocational areas in English and maths, even if they're doing trigonometry in engineering. Will say that is engineering and the warmth.
Speaker 3
Speaker 3
No no.
Jonny
Why is maths so to breakdown those barriers? Sometimes you physically gotta get out and about, so we, you know, we said go into lessons in induction lessons and source a like if you do in English or maths.
Jonny
This is what the crack is. This is what you'll be doing and This is why you'll be doing it and we're going to support you and help you, and you're in a room talking about English and maths in a positive light with your engineering colleagues or hairdresser travelling tourism colleagues in the same room in an instant link is made and where we could we try to get out and support in those early sessions when you know when you're going through enrollment weather in the workshop, whether they're in the salon.
Hollie
****
Jonny
And you just get in. And I mean from my perspective, I'll be honest. My experience was amazing. Absolutely full of myself. I wanted the couple of joinery lessons.
Jonny
And I was terrible, and all of the kids were better than us at it. But then when they came to the English lesson a couple weeks later, there was sort of all this.
Jonny
You know, there's that, that guy in the relationship was was there before that even ended in English classroom, so I think you know, get out about an embedded that way.
Speaker 3
Little.
Hollie
Yeah, it's interesting. Say that had the exact same conversation with trigonometry with with a colleague from for maths at another campus.
Hollie
And she's saying, you know the chooser saves me that can do trigonometry here, but when they come to me.
Hollie
They can't do it, and I say well is it? Is it that they can't do it or is it that they are not motivated to do it?
Hollie
Or is it that they can't see that they can't do it? You know, really trying to breakdown that that that process of maybe why they can't do it? Or is it? You know, don't say ignorance because it is probably not ignorant.
Hollie
So I sent you know if this is where actually taking maths and English into those areas where maths and English are being covered could be really beneficial.
Jonny
Just learned helplessness. If you know of, I don't think I'm going to be able to do it, so I'm not going to try, but I think it's again.
Speaker 3
Next
Jonny
It's about getting people together because sometimes what we don't think about is the move at a primary school teacher who teaches.
Jonny
A certain mathematical equation or or some sort of grammatical construct in English. The teacher one way, then go up with secondary school and they teach it a different way and then will come to Fe, where the English lecturer will teach you 3rd way and then the vocational lecturer, my teacher the 4th way.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Jonny
So they might have been thought trigonometry two or three different ways, so I think it's just it. Certainly we do this at Newcastle is getting English and maths stuff in a room on a regular basis with the vocational teams and.
Hollie
Yeah.
Jonny
Ask these questions of unity only teach trick. How do you teach this? I'll be a tape stuff and you know this is our teacher.
Jonny
Do you want you want my resource? You want my PowerPoint and making those resources for vocational areas and you get a bit. You get a bit more buying an it enables a collaboration that that helps to support young people.
Hollie
Yeah, I was just thinking about, you know, um, people answering an analysis quest.
Hollie
Instead, it comes as no impede or petrol or he L you know and how many times you have to breakdown that barrier. As you know we tried to like diminish acronyms. This year we were talking and saying actually we need to stop the acronym in and teach the teachers killer different way because they getting confused. And even if you are trying to drill into them you know this. This is the way it should be done. Follow my method. There still gonna follow a different method if it's been ingrained for them for the last 3-4 years. Another teachers done it.
Jonny
Yeah, yeah.
Hollie
Or is this what teaches at college as well?
Hollie
Different teachers at college, at different techniques of.
Hollie
Of teach him.
Jonny
And I've got to talk about in terms of that consistency, and I think that's more than anything else that's wearing this from us.
Speaker 3
Send
Jonny
Teachers have gotta do all extras or practitioners and I'll go by different different titles across the sector. But we've got to do is just take what's been before and strip it back was very Coren.
Jonny
Just start there. An Becky. Becky would on on Twitter, came across an method that I don't know whether she championed, but she certainly being probably the.
Jonny
The most vocal about spreading it was what, how and why and it just. It's just very simple questions and just strips back because he you find sometimes where students spend then actually or less China laying the acronym and not actually enough time applying it or giving you opportunities to see whether they can use it.
Hollie
Yeah, yes email.
Jonny
I used to want me will seem like a forest and all those sorts of things I did. I did a bit of supply work years and years ago when I was at school and they had a thing called prom shaped frogs.
Hollie
Yeah.
Jonny
And every we let us stood for summit it was like 1314 however many letters it actually found you with. You will spend in like the entire term, getting them to memorise. What prime shape Frog stood for, and they could use a similar in the good News certification. And it was it was just madness distributes.
Speaker 3
What?
Speaker 3
Behaviour.
Speaker 3
Wow.
Hollie
Yeah it was interesting. I was in a in a conversation a few weeks ago with practitioner called Stacey Solomon. When we start talking about command verbs and the variations of them across curricula as well.
Hollie
Because they talk to analyse it Jesus here then when they step into maybe a BTEC business it has a completely different explanation or they're being taught it in from a different angle and then they go into two different modules.
Hollie
Let's say in business and then they are taught to analyse in two different ways and actually we really need to have this holistic approach of putting that all together.
Hollie
Don't we have, you know, trying to identify that they can do it and myself and a colleague ended up talk about it at work and we're trying to build that an hour hour.
Hollie
I swear we want to put on a session which brings in all those maths and English skills where they are covered and then link them to the different curriculum areas.
Hollie
Because if they're doing it at distinction level in, I don't know games what what is there? The problem stopping them from analysing in GCSE English?
Hollie
What can I do it there and not here? But they're doing it such a high level, so it's about showing that then working skills together and like you saying that that's the consistency, isn't it? Linking up everything together as a cross college approach?
Speaker 3
Each.
Jonny
Yeah, it's an. It's an, it's difficult and it takes time. But I think once you get once you get a framework this rigid enough for everybody to work with.
Jonny
Input flexible enough that people still have a bit of freedom. I think that's when you know you really start seeing the results, but it's about putting that time and sitting down with vocational leaders, vocational managers and vocational staff and just saying, you know, actually can you. Can you deliver me a sort of a 20 or 30 keyword?
Speaker 3
Hello.
Jonny
List of things that you'd like me to cover. Can you? Can you deliver me the sort of content that we could potentially cover as Welland?
Jonny
Whether that is just a list of words or whether it's going into engineering and saying you know, can I have a text that I'm I want to use a text of engineering to answer another paper.
Hollie
Yeah.
Jonny
One question three, one of them structure work around that. Can you give me something and just instantly you relevant to reinforce what happened in that lesson you get that little bit more buying.
Speaker 3
Hollie
Absolutely. Do you think things need to change for him? English and maths at college?
Jonny
Hey I would say it is a very broad question because it's.
Hollie
Yeah it is.
Speaker 3
Different.
Jonny
In so many areas, you get people, as you say, the structure of it. You get people while teaching the same building. You'll get people who spread out through Yorkshire, for example. In some of the bigger colleges have got 5000 English GCSE Resetters you'll get people who are embedded within department. You get specialists. You'll get people like myself, outcasts from secondary. You'll get us as we talked about. You know you'll get people who come over.
Jonny
From vocational areas, a painter and decorator, or worked with you doing so with three hours a month, then opening asked him if you like to take it and he became a full time athlete.
Speaker 3
Right?
Jonny
We have
Jonny
Jonny
He was a hell of a teacher, so I think too much change in certain areas might alienate or isolate some of those people.
Jonny
I think the certain things that we could all agree we need more often. I think we need 3 hours a week for functional skills.
Jonny
I think we need additional funding which is true across the piste for everywhere in education. I think we need more specialised in more specific places to have conversations.
Speaker 3
Jonny
As we were talking about.
Jonny
You know, as you say, for second renal tests and stuff they've gotten every driven towards primary and secondary lift drive an excellent resource, but it's it's through the name itself.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Jonny
You can tell you not mainly little chair with bitter language, not really driven towards FA, so I think we need more official support.
Jonny
If you like you know the ETF to give us these spaces, and then it's a maybe provide the funding for these spaces.
Jonny
I think as they already do, but I think just I think they need an injection of cash to be able to to.
Hollie
Yeah.
Jonny
Ready.
Hollie
So it always starts with with money. Doesn't know a lot of the changes. You know, a lot of the reasons why we can't move things forward, or whether that's in college or as a sector all.
Hollie
Comes back to money, doesn't it?
Jonny
Just money in time. Morning time will fix every problem. I will say that I mean as you and all the jobs and the work that everybody does with insect is absolutely phenomenal.
Hollie
Yeah.
Jonny
But I think everybody in every sector could do with a bit more money in a bit more time, but I think they see the biggest, the biggest changes. I think that's what we need.
Speaker 3
Hollie
Thank you very much Johnny for your your time today. We've come to the end of the the podcast. Would you like to come to share your Twitter handle? And also when your books coming out as well?
Jonny
It is yes, thank you very much for Twitter handle ask Johnny Care Teacher. I've got a website that are sporadically blog out as well. The reflective teacher.co.uk and I had the book.
Jonny
Anne titled Improving English and Maths and further education of Practical Guides will be out on. I think it's a Tuesday, may the 25th.
Hollie
Ohh very soon then fabulous thank you so much for joining me today Johnny on the English mass graves and hopefully we'll chat again soon.
Jonny
Thank you very much for having us.
Speaker 3
Speaker 3
Thanks.
Speaker 3