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How do you do a podcast? We don't know but we think it goes like this. Welcome to Out of Phase presented by Portland State Production Services. A weekly music podcast and quasi-variety show, Out of Phase is dedicated to bringing music discussion and education to the Portland State community.
Not only do we have Out of Phase but we are also working on a brand new podcast that will interview local names in the sound and music industry. Names Like Jackpot Studios, Revolution hall and many more.
Stay tuned for more information !
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Transcriptions of each Episode will be down bellow!
Transcriptions of each Episode will be down bellow!
Out Of Phase Episode 1 : Baseball Music
Out Of Phase Episode 1 : Baseball Music
Out of Phase Episode 9 : He is the Nasty One
Out of Phase Episode 9 : He is the Nasty One
Out of Phase Episode 14 : Drew's Album Review - Complex by Montaigne
Out of Phase Episode 14 : Drew's Album Review - Complex by Montaigne
Out of Phase Episode 14 : Drew's Album Review - Complex by Montaigne
Out of Phase Episode 14 : Drew's Album Review - Complex by Montaigne
Out of Phase Episode 15: SUMO
Out of Phase Episode 15: SUMO
Episode 15
S: Storm
A: Ashley
D: Drew
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[music playing]
D: The album Divididos Por la Felicidad by Sumo is Argentinian Punk New Wave.
[music fades]
D: Hello, everyone, and welcome, again, to another episode of Out of Phase presented by Portland State Production Services. New name, same bullshit. Which I think needs to go on our, like, work shirts now.
S: That would be the best catchprase.
D: Wouldn’t that be fantastic? Today I am obviously your host Drew Häfner. And today I'm joined by two friends of mine, two co-workers- Ashley Placeck and Storm Garrison. Hi, guys.
A: Hey.
S: Hello.
D: We totally weren't talking before this, so- hi. We weren't having a conversation.
S: No, not at all.
D: So natural! So today we're talking about kind of an interesting- kind of a deep cut and out of my purview for certain. We're talking about a band called Sumo and mostly talking about one of their albums called Divididos Por La Felicidad. To check real quick, I do not speak Spanish, do either of you speak Spanish at all?
A: I am not fluent, but I can say I'm like an intermediate Spanish.
S: I'm not that advanced. I took half a year of it in middle school and I've been- well, I've been around people who do speak it, though, quite a bit. So I don't understand it at a high level. But there's lots- I mean, it's close to English, so there's lots of words, a lot of context clues I can kinda understand.
D: Yeah, I'm just putting it out there that, like, I do not speak Spanish and I do know how to pronounce Spanish. I do not know how to pronounce Spanish. Aside from just being around Spanish speaking people here in Oregon.
S: Can you roll your r’s?
D: I could, but I'm not going to because I think that a white person who doesn't speak Spanish rolls their r's pretty fucking bad. I will not be doing it in this episode. Also- if we were talking about an album where all the song titles were in French, we would be good because I can speak enough French that I would be fine, but I do not speak French.
S: So, I had a friend who was, who was self-admitted Mexican and could not. Could not. Well, he self admitted that he could not roll his r’s.
D: Oh, I was like, why did he self-admit that he’s a Mexican.
A: Oh. (laughs)
S: No, I phrased that weird but he was Mexican and he told me he couldn’t roll his r’s.
D: Amazing. OK, well yeah, that's just my way of saying that, like I probably will pronounce things incorrectly because it's not a language that I speak. But one of the things that I think is really interesting about this album is the fact that a majority of it is in English. So, this was not a pick of mine or Storm’s, it’s something that Ashley came across. So I'm wondering, Ash, if you could tell us about the band, how you came across it, because it's really interesting and all of that. Just give us some background. Some context.
A: Yeah, I'll give you the deets. So, basically, a couple of months ago, I was kind of like, I should get back into Spanish. And I started taking lessons with this lady from Argentina. And she was like, talking to me and we were talking about music. And she's like, yeah, I used to have a partner who was in this band called Sumo, and I didn't really think much of it at the time. I was like, I don't know who that is at all. But then I was like, OK, I'll pop it into Spotify. And I'm like, OK, they're pretty big. Like, they have millions of plays and like they probably have some sort of thing that I should check out. So then I did. And I come to find that they're pretty well known and instrumental in shaping contemporary rock in Argentina. And the interesting part is that like the lead singer, Luca Prodan, I don't know if I'm saying that right, but he's from Italy and basically moved to Argentina at some point and is credited with bringing a lot of, like, um, reggae and postpunk to Argentina, especially at this time, where, like, they were going through wars and had like a really repressive dictator. And so a lot of the teenagers there were like trying to figure out, you know, what was music going to look like in this new era and moving out of, like, psychedelia and all that. So, I don't know. I just thought it was a really interesting story.
D: Yeah, when you told this to me and you were like, hey, I think this might be a cool episode of a podcast, I was like, oh, that sounds fucking fascinating. For the audience's reference, also, this album is from nineteen eighty five and most of their work is from- it's their discography spans nineteen eighty five to nineteen ninety one. So six years. So I'm curious what the two of you would- I know that genre is kind of like a useless concept nowadays, especially where radio doesn't really dominate, so you don't have to be grouped much. But like, if you were to assign this a genre or a couple of genres, I'm wondering what you guys would put it in, because I think it's fascinating.
A: It's weird. It's like a mix. It's like post punk, meets reggae, meets alternative rock. And like the thing about it is, um, I think at the time it probably like it wasn't marketed very widely to like the US or England or anything. It was mainly made just for the youth of Argentina. So I don't know if it would fall into the same genre categories and some other music.
D: Yeah. And that's worth considering. Certainly that genre is different in different cultures, but, I feel that this takes a lot of influence from Western music like American and European music, in addition to Caribbean and African music. What about you, Storm?
S: I would say it's like- I mean, like U2, it's hard to really paste one genre and- I would almost call it, if I had to, because- I still think genre is important, for the same way that genre for books is. It's like it gives you a general idea of what you might expect and go from there. But like you're saying, it's definitely way more fluid than it used to be. And I would say like for my personal, because I don't always agree with everybody on genre, I would say this is like experimental pop, but like, not pop, like pop, but like an experimental pastiche of different popular forms of music.
D: That's an interesting way of putting it.
S: Like, it's really cool.
D: I was listening to this on my way to work at my other job today, and I'm sitting there in the car listening to- because each track sounds like a very different genre, in my opinion. And I was like, OK, so some of these feel really new-wave, some of these feel really reggae. Some of these feel really like punk or postpunk. And I was like, is this ska? Like would this be ska? And then I was like, no, it's not ska. It is all of the things that you would describe ska as, which is like post punk, but also reggae. But it's not ska. It's super strange in that way.
S: If it were ska, it'd be the first ska album I listened to and was like, yeah, I want to listen to this again. I would say it's definitely not ska, because I’m not into ska.
D: I think it's very funny that as a group, we all kind of don't like ska.
S: It’s whatever, I don’t know. I understand- it’s fun. So I think ska is the kind of thing where sometimes at a concert or like an event or something like that I would really get into it, but it's just not something I want to listen to on purpose, you know.
D: So then OK, so here's the reason why I think that we're like, OK, the reason I think that we're floundering on the question, what genre is this? Right. Because obviously it's a fusion. It's a style. It's like a fusion style of music. And like I said, it's postpunk.
S: Pop. (pops.)
D: But I would also say that it is New-wave. Like post punk and New Wave are like sort of the same group but different.
S: Drew, you just kind of half-coined it, it’s pop fusion.
A: (gasps)
D: You know, I would say I wouldn't use the term pop. I understand why you did. And I just wouldn’t.
S: Yeah. I just I can't think of a better term to describe lots of genres.
D: I think that it is new wave reggae fusion.
S: Ok, but they're still postpunk in there, which is totally different than this other-
D: New wave and postpunk are kind of interchangeable in some ways. Like if you're talking about- Like, “The B-52 is New-wave,” like, no, that's a very distinct genre, but if you're talking about, like, The Cure, or the Talking Heads; that still falls within the purview of post punk and punk a lot of the time, because some New Wave artists that are that type of new wave still consider themselves punk artists.
A: Sorry, would Joy Division fall into that category?
D: Yeah, because I think Joy Division is like, yeah, that line between New Wave and postpunk.
A: Right. And like the album title is Divididos Por La Felicidad, which is like- divided by happiness, which is- they’re making a nod to Joy Division, basically because they were influenced by them.
D: Yes. So, OK, this is my next question actually. What influences did you hear in here? Because I heard two very specific ones wondering if anyone else picked up.
S: I was going to touch on that, whether nobody else brought it up, so I’ll just start. And in… what's the name of the song I just was listening to? I think it's not on the album, but it's one of the other ones you ask just to listen to, Ash. Estallando Desde El Oceano? That one, I was listening to and I feel like I'm listening to Rebel Yell by Billy Idol, but like done differently. And I don't mean that as a knock because I really like that song. And it wasn't like a copy but I got influences.
D: I had the same experience. These are not the two bands that I was thinking of when I was thinking that, like the big influences for these two. But when I was listening to the song Heroina, I was like, this sounds so much like the Velvet Underground. And it doesn't help that. It sounds like the Velvet Underground song Heroin. It's like, about Heroin.
S: Sorry, I just couldn't- that song, I knew, like, every time I listen to it, like right before this meeting too, I was like, this reminds me of something but I couldn't place what it is. It's Velvet Underground.
D: Yeah. So part of it was I think I went and being like, oh yeah. This, this song is- I imagine heroina is heroin in Spanish. I actually- I guess I don't know. Well, no, I do, because he sings, in English, the word heroin. I guess I personally wouldn't have known if it was heroin with an e or without an e, like, you know, the drug or the female hero or whatever. I assume it's the drug. It is a punk band. So I think that I went in listening to get a little biased because I was like, oh, it could- it's similar to this song. But I think that- and I want to get into this after- I want to hear what Ashley's influence comments are. But I- the lead singer does a really interesting thing with the voices and accents throughout their music. And I want to get into that. But anyway.
A: I noticed that too.
D: Yes. Ash, what influences do you feel are evident in this?
A: Yeah, I think-
D: You have some Joy Division.
A: Yeah, Joy Division is a big one- with his vocals. He puts a lot of like reverb in it. And just like the style that he's delivering it in is very similar. That, maybe like, Morrissey, and I don't know if the song came out after this album, but do you know that song by Primus? Jerry Was A Race Car Driver?
D: No.
S: It's been a long time since I heard it, but I-
A: You know what I mean.
S: Primus is hilarious. Yeah.
A: But I just heard, like, I don't know, really similar sounds in the first song on this album too. It comes from a lot of different things. But then there's also the fact that, like, I don't know, Caia, the last song, is all about weed and like, he basically- the accent thing. He starts talking like he's Jamaican, so-
D: Okay, I don't really want to get into this, I have one last band that I think that they draw a ton of influence from. And it's so strange to me-
S: The Wailers?
D: Who?
S: The Wailers, Bob Marley and the Wailers?
D: No, no.
S: I mean, if they're doing reggae, they're drawing inspiration from Bob, though, c’mon.
D: Yes. Yes, of course. I mean reggae broadly-
S: Yeah. I mean, it's a moot point.
D: Yeah, but this specific type of new wave reggae is what The Police are all about. And that's the one that stood out to me the most, because I guess this isn't necessarily the correct assumption. But I assume because like a lot of Argentinian people are white, like white Spanish speakers, that these people were white, that is maybe an assumption I should have not made. But I associate like white new wave reggae with The Police specifically. So, like. That's what I got. It's really interesting that all of those definitely are present in this music and all of those are incredibly diverse like that is a really wide swath of the musical spectrum. OK, I know we all really want to talk about this now. What the fuck? Why? OK, I'm going to describe the thing that I think Ashley and I are thinking and correct me if this isn’t what you're thinking. OK, the lead singer is clearly an English speaking person. You said that they were Italian, right? OK. So I wouldn't have known that. I would have assumed that they were Argentinean, but not because of the music. Just context wise. I would have assumed they were Argentinean because the lead singer does accents in the music to fit the genre of the song. So there's a really, really new wave sounding song. It's almost kind of like Talking Heads, like really New Wave. And he does like a British accent. During the song,
A: Yeah, I think- I think it was called-
D: Very baffling to me. And then the other one that got me was Caia, where he is doing like a Caribbean accent. And the man is not Caribbean. Yeah, so it was like, oh, that's kind of fucking weird. I don't know how I feel about that. So I want to know how you two feel about it?
A: Yeah, there's- I was like researching this and there's some controversy over that just because it's like, yeah, I don't know. Should you really be a white Italian dude doing that? And so maybe some of these things are outdated, right. Because like- or maybe they weren't even good at that point. Well, one of the songs too is like- the first one is all about the dumb blonde. So obviously there's some- maybe some sexism in there too. Whatever.
D: Did you notice that too, Storm?
S: Like, I definitely noticed the different accents and stuff, but I thought it was neat just because I like vocalists that have, like- that demonstrate not only necessarily range in pitch, but just ability to incorporate different vocal stylings into there. Like, that's something I really key into when I'm listening to a band. And if their vocalist can do that kind of stuff, I, I mean, maybe it's just a combination of things. But when I'm listening to stuff like that, that's- I don't know, that's not usually my first thought. Like you guys bring it up, I just didn't think about it until right now, really. I could see it being outdated or being like- but- without knowing the people and just guessing from the overall feel of the music, I think it was done in fun, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's unfortunate if they said something that was wrong or whatever, but I doubt their intent was to hurt anybody. I think, you know, so I think it's just better to show a little humility in the face of humor. Yeah.
D: No, don’t get me wrong, I don't think that's what I meant. That's not what I'm saying. I don't think that’s what Ashley’s saying either, I just-
A: Yeah. He does like a lot of very ironic things. And I think if you watch his live performance, that is his style too- just being kind of like this goofball kind of dude.
D: It seemed like it was very flamboyant, like over the top. One of the things that is really funny, because I didn't think about it in the song where he puts on a British accent I didn't like, question it, and then he did it with the like, Caribbean accent. And I was like, oh, wait, hold on. He did that in a different tongue too, what the fuck? Why are you doing that? Why are you- and I mean- Totally- I mean, like doing the British accent, I'm like, fucking whatever. I don't think there is an ethical question about that. It’s a fucking British accent. When you as a nation colonized the entire planet, we're going to make fun of you a little bit.
A: Plus, he lived there for a little while like he lived in London. So, like, maybe he has a little accent?
D: Probably not. But, you know, no justification, right? Yeah. I think it's just like doing a Caribbean accent, and a little bit like, OK, maybe maybe that's a little bit weird, but especially because that's the one that stood out to me as I was like, oh, this is like a reggae song. This is just a straight up reggae song. And he's doing the reggae voice, that like, trans-carribean accent. That's like a vaguely Jamaican, that kind of- anyway, I just- judgment aside, it fit the songs that it's done very well into the point where, like, if you're not listening critically- I mean, even if you are, like, you might not even think about it, like I didn't think about it and I was listening critically until I got to the last song on the album, it's just a very strange little style thing. But I don't think I've ever really heard other bands put on another- like I've heard other bands, especially in the punk and post punk genre like play- not play up, but just like lean into an accent. Like there's a lot of really British punk that comes out of lower class London. So like, very thick, lower class British accents. But it's not like they're doing that accent. Right, like unless I guess I could be unfamiliar. Maybe there are some. Like if the Sex Pistols did that I wouldn't be shocked, but fuck the Sex Pistols. Anyway, I'm curious as to what your favorite songs were on the album, because something that I always like to talk about, I know mine and I feel very strongly about mine because it was (chef’s kiss) beautiful.
S: Chef's kiss.
D: It was an auditory chef’s kiss, but I really, really enjoyed one of the songs on this album. I really enjoyed actually quite a bit of the album, but I want to know what your thoughts are.
S: That's a tough-
A: Yeah, you go ahead.
S: I’m just going to go with the first one that pops in my head, but I don't know if it really is my favorite, but the second song in the album, Mula Plateada. I'm totally butchering that. It's just as simple as that little guitar riff that's like in the bottom- it feels in my headphones, it feels more like bottom centered left- and it's like it's just got such shine on it. Every time I was listening to the song, I just was listening for that specifically. And it's like it's like an auditory scratch of an itch, you know, like I don't know what it is, but I just love the sound of that specific thing. And also I like The Moon, I like that it sings about the moon. My other favorite song wasn't on the album, though. It was the one I mentioned earlier that reminded me of Billy Idol. The ocean one. Talks about breaking through the ocean or something like that.
D: Yeah. Ash, can I take a stab in the dark? That one's yours as well. Maybe because I see that you're currently listening to it on Spotify.
S: Stalker.
A: Oh, no. Just kidding. Just kidding. My sister shares Spotify with me. So she's listening to it, which is good. I introduced her. Anyways. Yeah, I would, I would actually say Mula Plateada is my favorite on this album. I think it's interesting, because I was just looking it up. I didn't know what it meant, exactly, but it means Silver Mule, which is weird because he's singing Silver Moon in the song. And I just like his vocal style, the lyrics, that guitar thing that you're talking about, it's very rhythmic and weird and fun. So that one's my favorite.
D: Yeah, I have 2. I know that I said give me your favorite, but I'm going to break that rule.
S: I mean, I mentioned-
D: Yeah, you did. You did too. Well I'm glad that this is equitable here.
S: Yeah, exactly. You want to pick another one, Ashley?
A: Yeah. Oh good. Yeah. Heroin. Yeah. That one's good. That one’s really good.
D: So yeah. in terms of the song that I enjoyed the most and I genuinely thought was really good, and I really like the styling of- Heroina was also one of my favorites, like I really like it. I really like the affectation in his voice that is like mimicking kind of the- I don't know if it's deliberately trying to mimic Lou Reed. Like, I don't know if it's supposed to be like a response to Heroin. I don't know, like it doesn't talk about a lot of the same stuff except for the heroin part, but it feels very similar in that style. And I really like that, like really old 70s style of stuff like- really, really like the beginning of like alternative music, except that Lou Reed is kind of an asshole, I'm pretty sure, if I'm not mistaken, I think he's like a total piece of shit. I feel like it's probably- I know that he doesn't like Portland. That's the one thing I do know.
A: Oh, man.
D: I had a teacher in high school tell me when I was in a like English class that was about like music analysis, fucking great class, by the way. And I was doing a project on The Velvet Underground and Nico, and while we were writing about it, my teacher came over and was like, yeah, Lou Reed’s a total asshole. So I was like, why? Apparently when he came here to do a show in, like the 80s, he was like, I fucking hate Portland. Your city is gross and horrible. And I was like, OK, fuck Lou Reed I guess. Super mean for no reason. Anyway. So I really like that song just because it feels very much of a time of music that I like. A little bit ironically, but not not really- Debede is a fucking great song. There is a song on this album called Debede, and it is, I would imagine, just about disco dancing, because that's what it seems to be about. When I was listening to the lyrics, it is just like the most mid to late 80s song, like it's like that era, just like in a crystalline form. Like it's so drum machine driven with these like horns that are present throughout the album. I just, I just, it just, it just whips ass, dude, and it just is a good part of the song. That's basically all I have to say about it.
S: If I could jump in- on that song, particularly... There's a lot of- I was able to pick up Rebel Yell and Billy Idol specifically because- whenever I hear that song, on like, satellite radio. And when I'm with somebody who doesn't have, like an MP3 player or something to use, like I just listened to it because I like that song. Mainly because I just love the way the vocals are. And there's a lot of other areas on the album, like songs where I know I'm hearing the influence, but I'm not exactly sure what the influence is because it's something that I've just heard a bunch over the course of my life since growing up. But I never specifically paid attention to that artist or something, but Debede towards the last third of the song or something, and he gets kind of more raspy in his vocals. It super reminds me of something really specific, but not specific enough for me to remember what it is.
D: I’ll try and find out what it is.
S: But like, I can hear the influence from something I've heard before. Absolutely. And the way the horns come in after really hits me. It sounds like something I'm familiar with, but it's like racking my brain, trying to figure out what it actually is.
D: Yeah, it’s weird, I can't figure out what it is. It does feel very like 1985, like the drum machine and the man screaming about disco.
S: I love the drum machine.
D: It's so good.
S: When it came in, I was like, yes.
D: It's very, very, very prominent. There are a couple of songs where it’s more super prominent, but none as much as Debede. Yeah, I, I want to talk about the horns in this album because I largely don't like horns in my rock music, which is part of the reason that I don't generally enjoy ska.
S: You don’t like horns in rock, dude? You don’t know how to rock, bro.
D: Okay, so this is an auditory medium. So that joke was completely lost. But you do it for you.
S: And Ash.
D: Just for us. Yeah, that's a secret. No. Yeah, it's just- just the devil horns. Thanks for that. I don't like brass- I meant like instrument horns- I don't tend to like them in rock music. And I was off put by them a little bit in some parts of this album, like there are some songs that I was like, wow, this is really like shredding. And then all of a sudden there were horns and I was like, now it sounds like Dave Matthews, and I was not here for Dave Matthews. There are other ones, though, that I think it's really good and especially like the more reggae tracks. Like it fits really nicely, I think that. Largely speaking, the horns are like, well mixed, they're very interesting, they're very raspy, which is the sonic quality that I don't tend to associate with horns. They're almost mixed in accompaniments for the lead singer's vocals, which are sort of raspy and and and like Billy Idol in the way that Storm was saying. So I thought that it was interesting in listening to it is the way that they were mixed. But there were some times in some songs I was like, mmph.
A: It was a little too much.
D: It was a little too funky. I'm like, I would like a rock song. Thank you. You sold me on the concept of a rock song and now it is a ska song.
S: My disappointment is immeasurable.
D: But I mean that's like a personal preference. That's not like, it's not bad because of that. It's just like that's not how I want this. Like if you're setting up a rock song I want you to deliver on that. I don't really want it to become a reggae song or a funk song. Just that’s me, though. I'm not usually super into these, like kind of like very deliberate fusion genres. Like, I guess that’s not really true though, because the Clash are kind of that. But do you guys have any- do you guys have any things that stood out to you like that?
S: That I didn't like?
D: Or that you did. The horns just stood out to me, I thought that they were- I'm not saying I don't like the horns. I'm saying there were parts where I wish they weren't there. But when they were there and in a good part, like I really liked them.
S: Right. I didn't I didn't think about that. I mean, it makes sense that you don't like horns in rock since we already established that. Well, none of us really like ska. But I never thought about it really while I was listening. So, I don't know if I like horns or not in rock. I know there's a lot of examples where I don't, but this is one where I do. There wasn't any part of the album that I didn't like really. One thing that really- I'll say this, OK, so like I started, and I listened to the first song and I was like, OK, this is pretty simplistic. And you know, sometimes I tend to listen to a lot of stuff that's not. But it just depends. Right. And so I was like, this is pretty simplistic, but it's good. And then I listened to the second song and I was like, OK, this guitar, I'm really digging this. And I get to the third song, No Acabes? And I don't remember exactly how that song listens like, but by that time I was like, all right, I'm just adding this to my library. This is fun to listen to.
A: Yeah.
S: Honestly, it's really fun to listen to and what came across as just kind of more simplistic, you know, like in the 80s style, like a lot of music was more simplistic than just in general, even like popular music has really gotten more advanced over the years, in my opinion, at least a lot of it. But it's done so well. It's like- it's I would say rather than calling it simplistic, it's minimal in a way that makes sense. Like, I love how spaced out the instruments sound and how I love mixes that are full and like everything. But this mix is like the opposite, but in a way that I enjoy, there's like so much air between all the instruments I feel like- And it's in a way that doesn't bother me.
D: You know where they're drawing that from?
S: Uhhh…
D: Old school new wave. Like the Talking Heads. And Joy Division.
S: There is a lot of examples of new wave that I like, but I didn't really know, you know, what New Wave was.
D: I'll send you some new wave, because if you think that’s cool-
S: I know what it is now.
D: If you like that, you will like the Talking Heads.
S: I do like them.
D: OK, cool.
S: I just never listened to a whole album-
D: Yeah.
S: I've heard them plenty of times because my mom used to listen to-
D: Totally.
S: Them and such, so-
D: Yeah.
S: They’re cool though.
D: What about you, Ash? What stood out to you?
A: I was actually going to echo the horn thing just because, like you, like when it hit, it was good. And Debede, I really like the horns.
D: When they introduce it up front and they're like, this is what you're in for. I'm like, fuck, yeah.
A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I also really liked- sometimes he would just do these like- we were talking about rolling our r’s as white people, but like, I don't know, he did it in a stylistic way where he's doing this long crazy ass vocal trill thing that's not even a word, but like it was really fun.
D: There was a lot of that, actually. Now that you mentioned it, there's a lot of, like, vocal play in this album, but it's just silly and weird and strange, like, yeah, like- there's a lot of vocal play and a lot of popular music in the modern era. But it's not- it's usually like, I don't know, it's usually like- reserved for like O's and oohs and ahs and stuff like that or some consonants. The first song has a scat breakdown, like at the beginning of the song. There’s also like a jazz influence in some of these things. Like it's a yeah. So yeah, I totally agree with that, Ash.
A: I think that that first line in that song is ingrained in my brain now, it's like, oh, mama, ooh papa, ooh mama.
D: It’s so good.
A: Something like that. It's so fun and weird and I don't even know what's going on.
D: Yeah, I think that this album, like it's- it is so dated, like it's so fucking dated. Like it's the most- I listen to this without looking at the date. And I was like, this is the most like mid 80s music I've ever heard. But it's not dated in a bad way. Like it's not like, oh this feels like not- like it feels like it is very identifiable from a period of time. And I think it's a really good preservation of that period in time. And it's still fucking fun to listen to. Like, I really like music that feels like it's very from a particular era, even if it's not. I just wrote our most recent album of the week on a band called Greta Van Fleet, which like If I played you without the context, you would think they were from the 70s. But they're not. They're modern band. They still release music. They've just started to in the last like five years. They're really new. And so I really like very, “Oh, this feels very much like the mid 80s.” One of my favorite songs- like an example of this is Ants Marching by the Dave Matthews Band because it's the most like early 90s song I can think of. But yeah, this is like really dated in a way that I don't mean- like bad.
S: It's almost like- I didn't think about it until just now. But the way it encapsulates so many different sounds- encapsulates so many different sounds from the 80s. It's almost like an Argentinean time capsule.
D: Exactly.
S: Incorporating so many different facets of the 80s.
D: Of like post-punk and new wave and reggae and a little bit of ska, a little bit of jazz, like, it's really interesting.
A: Ash, when you were- when we were, well, when we were all talking about that little scat part in the first song, that little scat part. Yeah. I guess that sounds kind of odd.
D: You just paused back to the word scat. So you could just-
S: I know, I didn't mean to! So, um, Mamou, it reminds me almost of like Surfin Bird a little bit or something else like- like- and then another since we're talking about the influences, I know I'm backtracking, but who cares. I'm going to do it anyway. The- this- the- what's the word? I don't know, the album name- Divididos Por la Felicidad. That. The way the guitars are kind of drying out, the course would like- do, do, do, and then it's almost like they're kind of being stretched a little bit. That's another one of those things where I'm hearing something I've heard a lot. Definitely. Like I'm really hearing a strong influence from something I know, but not something I know well enough to name it. So I'm curious if you have any ideas about what it could be from.
D: I have no idea.
S: But like, are you with me? It sounds like it sounds very reminiscent- It reminds me of something and also I love the way it sounds-
D: This album- Here's the best way to put it. This album sounds very familiar, even if you've never listened to it before. Like it's taking a lot of influence and a lot of things like riffs and styles and like ways of form of vocalizing and things like that from all over the place, from all over the world. Like, I would imagine that this probably has a lot of influence from Argentinian music, like not I don't know- I don't know anything about Argentinian music, but I would guess that it probably- like some of the stuff that isn't familiar to us, would be familiar to someone from Argentina like- And also knowing that the frontman is from Italy, like probably Italy, too. Like there's probably it's- just- it's very like this homogenous-like- there's a lot that is able to be picked out like that. Be like this sounds like Lou Reed. This sounds like David Byrne. This sounds like Argentinian music. And this sounds like ska. Like super strange, weird, weird, weird, like collage. It's a collage, it's a musical collage
S: To add on to that some, that was one of my main takeaways from the album. Other than just having a good time with it and having fun music. I want to listen to it again and introduce to some people it- I was really impressed, I believe, back when we did this last summer- I remember having a conversation like this about some other album. But like, one thing I really appreciate when artists do and I think is this album is a good example of- is when they incorporate lots of different elements from different styles, but they do it well enough that instead of it sounding like how a sample played at a restaurant looks, right? Where it's just very obvious, like different appetizers, where it's more like a whole meal, where there's just all these different flavor profiles and spices mixed well enough that you can pick them out. But it still stands as its own, like thing, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's not just obvious that they're- I don’t know. I'm spinning my wheels here. You get my point.
D: I do. I have a task for us to close out the episode. Let's give this album a genre name. I'm going to pitch Argentinean New wave Reggae Fusion.
A: That's cool
D: OK. Does anyone else have anything to add or to change? Argentinean, new-wave, reggae fusion.
S: I want to put post in front of everything.
D: Post-Argentinian.
S: If you think of postmodern writing as being like, weird-
D: It’s post-Argentinian!
S: No, it's Argentinean post reggae fusion...
A: New wave rock.
D: OK, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's Argentinean post punk, new wave, reggae fusion.
S: OK.
D: Post Argentinian post-punk.
S: I am tired of saying all these words, so I'm going to go with that one.
A: Sounds good.
D: OK, so this- Well, OK. The album again. OK, yeah. I'm going, I'm going to give us a nice little soundbite. The album Divididos Por la Felicidad by Sumo is Argentinean post punk new wave fusion. Cool. Thank you very much for listening. This is another episode of Out Of Phase. We will hopefully have more episodes as the summer drags on. Thank you, Ashley, and Storm for hanging out and talking about this insane album with me- it’s a good time. Ashley, thanks for doing the research and finding this weird shit. Yeah, tune in. Tune in next time. Catch it. Catch you later. I don't know if I have an outro that I ever do, so I'm just going to leave it here. Bye.
S: Bye.
A: Bye. See you.
Out of Phase Episode 14 Transcript
D: Drew
A: Ashley
J: Johnny
D: It's so GOOD. Who uses the.. Who takes the word hyena.. Makes it into a, like, adjective and then is like, yeah, hyen-ic laughter? You've probably heard my hyen-ic laughter. Like I get “my cheeks are bright red” because the analogy is like “I'm a clown, I'm a clown,” the song is called “I am a Clown”, but she’s like “I am a bird.” I’m like “Why?! Why are you a bird?”
[Music stops.]
D: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Out of Phase, the podcast presented by Portland State Professional Sound. Guess what has changed in the format again? This show is like nebulous and fluid and will never have a specific purpose, ever. [Laughs] It's music related still, we're not talking about like, I don't know.. What do you think about cars? I'm still Drew. That's still me. I still exist. I'm hanging out. Here today I have two guests with me. First off, we've got Ash. Ashley say hi.
A: Hi.
D: Ash has been on the podcast.. this is your second time? We talked about covers last summer. You were on in the first iteration in the first season of the podcast.
A: Yeah, it's been a while.
D: It's been a minute.. yeah. And we also have Johnny. Hey, Johnny.
J: Hey.
D: Johnny is our.. uh.. he's been on with us. He hasn't been on the show before, but he's actually our new general manager. So Johnny's now my boss. [Laughter] Yeah. So I'm going to grill Johnny because Ash has been on the show before. Johnny, what kind of music are you into? What kind of styles do you listen to?
J: I listen to.. Well, I'm a percussionist, so a lot of the time I listen to music, I spend it playing on a marimba and stuff. So yeah. So like I'm playing a piece called Verono Porteño and it's this piece, it's kind of a tango, which is really fun. And then I've been listening to this album a lot recently.. and I always love some Herbie Hancock, its so good, and jazz and Kendrick Lamar, rap, hip hop.
D: Nice. What kind of stuff is.. like what brings you to like.. I mean, like, I know this, but like for the audience, why do you work here? Like what? What brings you into the audio engineering field as a musician?
J: Well, I mean, my love for music and just like where music is going.. it's being incorporated with a bunch more electronic stuff. And it it's really valuable to know more about that realm of music. And it's also just really interesting to me and like the possibilities that can come out of adding, you know, working in DAWs and whatnot. And just this kind of work, being around live concerts a lot is something that.. obviously it's not happening right now and. And we’re recording a podcast and stuff.
D: Right now we just record podcasts in our fucking rooms like idiots.
J: But, hey, it's about music and it's fun. And that's why I love doing it.
D: Right. Yeah. So you and Ash in a similar place, the like, whole, you’re trying to be the jack of all trades. “I'm going to be a musician and also an engineer and also a producer and also everything else.” And then there's me and I'm like, “I'm going to do one thing.” [Laugh] “I'm going to do one thing and thats going to be it.”
J: You’ll be really good at it.
D: Yeah. So this week, I guess I should talk about what the format is. I kind of just said the formats changing, uh.. formats changing. We're going to talk about, just like an album I think. It's going to probably be around like three people each time. I'm going to be here. Hopefully we can start transitioning into me not being the constant host at some point because I do unfortunately have to graduate at a certain point and I don't get to work here anymore. Yeah, so sad. I'm the ancient leviathan that still exists at PSPS.
J: You have so much knowledge.
D: Do I though? [Laughter] I mean.. I have some.
J: You have more than me.
D: Well yeah, I guess, but like, I don't know how to play marimba.. anymore. But yeah. So at some point I won't be on the show anymore and someone else will have to forget how to introduce the show every single time. But not this week. This week we are transitioning to another new format after our short lived music history podcast part. We're going to talk about an album that I suggested called Complex or Com-plex. I don't know if it's like the noun or the adjective. I like stuff like that. I'm going to assume it's complex, like the adjective, by an artist called Montaigne. So a little bit about Montaigne. She is a 25 year old singer songwriter art-pop kind of person from Australia. She's from New South Wales, Sydney, you know, the only city on Australia most of us know. Her actual.. her birth name.. Well, her real name, Montaigne's the stage name, is Jessica Alyssa Cerro. And she's kind of just been doing music since she was in high school, honestly, like it seems that she graduated high school and started working on her career as a songwriter and as a musician because she clearly has some significant natural talent. I personally came upon Montaigne through kind of a weird means of finding a musician. I listen to a podcast that recently needed to change their theme song, like their intro song, because the person who wrote it turned out to be kind of.. like had said some shitty stuff on Twitter like ten years ago. And they were like “Yeah, fuck that guy, we need a new theme song.”
J: Get him outta here.
D: And she is a listener of the podcast. So she was like, “I’ll write a theme song for you.” And they were like, “OK!”. And so I, you know, heard this new song for this podcast I've been listening to forever. And I was like, “That. Fucking. Slaps!” And then they had her on the show and she was like, really cool and kind and charming. And I was like, “I need to check her music out.” And I absolutely adore it.
J: It’s really good.
A: Yeah.
D: So I made these two listen to it. So we listened to her sophomore album, Complex or Com-plex. We're going to assume its the adjective. Its a 2019 album. Singles were coming out for it, though, for a couple of years. That's about it. I want to know.. I've listened to this album, like in the last month I've listened to it at least like two or three times a week because I really, really think it's super cool. I want to know from the two of you what you're like, gut-check first reaction was to it. Just like the first.. what did you get from it? Like immediately, without like, digging into it more.
A: I don't know. I thought her voice really reminded me of like, Murena and Kimbra very much.
D: Yes.
A: I don't know. It's cool. You could tell that she is very like, stream of consciousness with the lyrics a little bit, but also like she has really good control over her vocals which is nice.. and yeah.
D: Yeah, she's really clearly a very talented musician, but also very specifically a talented vocalist because she has this like crazy like dynamic range and good breath.. I used to like, do choirs so.. She has good breath support, like you can hear that. She is, like, supporting these like powerful notes with, like, good breathing technique and stuff. What about you, Johnny?
J: Yeah, I agree. Just like the first thing that stuck out to me was just her singing and like how good she was and how good she sounded. Like with your comment on breath support and stuff. And another thing is like the variety of instruments that she used.
D: Yeah!
J: It felt like there are a lot of different instruments. Like with the use of strings. It kind of reminded me of some of the Beatles and their use of strings.
A: Yeah.
J: And I heard flutes at some point and then there is a bunch of different percussion. Like I heard in.. I don't know if it was.. I think it was in “CHANGE”, there is tabla. I think, I think.
D: I don't even know what that is.. What is that?
J: They're Indian drums. I think they might have been tabla.
D: I know what you're talking about. There's like a bridge.
J: They’re like hand drums. But yeah, just like so many cool percussion elements. And in another one I thought there was some timbales too.
D: Mhm.
J: And then just like the depth of the lyrics, like how, how deep the lyrics went with the meanings that you mentioned, like try listening to this for, for meaning and lyrics and stuff. And I was like “Wow, there's a lot of meaning here.”
D: There's a lot of meat on that bone, there's a lot. I read something in an interview where she was talking about this, and about this album, and all the songs were kind of written over several different years. And then were all put together into one album. It wasn't like written front to back, all in like one time period. And she.. she put it in a way that was like, “I would write a song at a certain point in my life about like something that was like, like some sort of like secret, or like something in the back of my head that was bothering me. Like some insecurity or something like that.” Like this album is full of that stuff. It's full of like, breakup songs, and like songs about like body image issues, and like stuff, like that; which I think is fascinating, especially because it wasn't written with like one specific purpose in mind. It seems like it was just like, “I wrote a song about, like, how shitty this relationship is or whatever. Right? And then it's in this album. And there's like I mean, for that example, like there's a couple of “like this relationship is bad” songs. And I would have thought they were all about one relationship, not knowing that, but they're all, I would assume, about different things.
J: That's really interesting because I just thought it was about one relationship.
D: I think that this album, my first reaction to this album was this is a breakup album like this is this is an album mostly, I mean there's some other stuff, but, you know..I was like, oh, this is mainly about like going through a shitty breakup or whatever. But then I, like, looked in closer and like, the thing that made me realize it wasn't that, is.. there's a song at the end of the album called “I am a Clown”z`. And one of the lyrics in the chorus is, “if my tongue's in my mouth, we're not meant to be”, which is like, that's not breakup lyric.. that's a sex lyric. That’s a like, “I'm having bad sex” kind of lyric. And I was like, “oh, OK”, this is more than that. This is more complex than that. Right? It's not just, like, a breakup album. [Pause] OK. The way that I want to break this conversation down, for right now, I want to know what your favorite song was and what you think the most interesting song was.. And those could be the same song. For me, they're not. So I want to know if you have this disparity of like a song you're like, “that's a fucking good song”, and then another song where you're like, “whoa, what's going on? That's fascinating”.
J: I do. I have two different songs.
D: Ok Johnny, what are yours?
J: Ok. Mine are.. I like “CHANGE” the most, just like for being like a good song to listen to.
D: It's like a marching song.
J: Yeah, I love it! It's just like so driving, and just like carries you along. And then the song that I think is like.. What was the other criteria? Most deep, or…
D: What do you think it's the most fascinating?
J: Yeah, most fascinating…
D: What just like, like picks your brain the most?
J: Probably.. “is this all I am good for?”.
D: Ok. What about you, Ash?
A: It's hard because there's a lot of good ones on here, but I think I really liked Love Might Be Found (Volcano)” because, I was listening to an interview.. I really like how that song, like the hook in that song to begin with, but I was listening to her talk about it.
D: It’s so good!
A: Yeah. And she's just like talking about how like she was in this relationship and she had to leave at some point, but like they were in L.A. and she wanted to.. she was like hoping like, what if like a volcano or like a storm was able to keep her in L.A., so she could, like, pursue this thing. [Short pause] I think it would either be that one or like “Showyourself”, which I didn't really like musically, because it's just kind of a short interlude.
D: Yeah, it's interesting.
A: But her lyrics are like, “my thoughts were finally ripe, but there was no one to feed them. Now they're fermenting.” And like you were talking about how she compiled this over several years. And like, I just feel like that's her saying, like, now I'm ready to put this all on an album. Like, “I have to get it out of me.”
D: I have not made that connection before.
J: I didn’t either.
D: It’s very clever.
J: That is.
A: Yeah.
D: Ok, so what I was saying when I rudely interrupted you was I really like the song Losing My Mind. I don't feel like I understand fully what it is about. I just think it's really.. I really like the hook and the chorus of like, “I don't know what I'm doing, I'm completely out of control, I don't know how to..” She uses a flying metaphor for, like, I think it's about anxiety. Like she doesn't know how to come down from being anxious. The metaphor is “I've flown so long, I've forgotten how to land.” And I.. get it. Like I feel that. I feel that, like I'm like, I don't know what to do now. Right?
J: Yeah.
D: And it is also just a really good pop song. My personal favorite song is, “is this all I'm good for?”. I think it's also a fascinating song. I don't think it's the most fascinating one, but I really like it. I think it's a really like instrumentally interesting song because it's mostly percussion and folk, like it's mostly like a kick drum and vocals and I think a glockenspiel.
J: Yeah.. yeah.
D: And like a small metallic marimba of some sort.
J: Muted.
D: Yeah. It's like dead, it's like they're hitting it but they're just like holding the mallet on the key as it hits. It's a really interesting song. But then theres also these really cool strings in it as well. And also, you know, like it's very clearly a song about body image issues and self-worth issues. And like, we can all probably relate to that a little bit. I know that I can! It's fun. But in my opinion, the most interesting song is Stockholm Syndrome.
J: That's a very interesting song.
A: That’s a good one.
D: I don't think it's necessarily a unique idea for a song because it basically takes this like, “I'm in a codependent, bad relationship” and compares it to Stockholm syndrome, which is, you know, not the first time that's been done. But I think that the way that it's done, like the execution of it, including the fact that the music.. the song itself is really stressful to listen to.
A: Mhm.
J: Yeah.
D: And it's just like it just continues to move. Like there's not really a chorus. It just keeps going forward. Like it's just one long verse, but it's like a five minute song and it's just really anxiety provoking.
J: Oh yeah.
D: In a way that I appreciate. And it's driving like that. The rhythmic element of it. It's like incredibly driving.
J: Yeah. That like, repeating triplet. [Emulates rhythm]
D: Yeah.
A: Yeah!
D: It's so like.. it just stresses me out. Like I am not joking. When I listen to this album I usually skip that song.
A: Hm.
D: Not because I don't think it's good, but just because sometimes I'm like, “I can't, I can't do it right now.” It genuinely stresses me out a little.
J: Yeah. I have listened to it just because it's like, that kind of song just like gets me, I don't know.. It like hypes me up.. [Laughter].. just like that instrumental aspect and stuff.
D: Right.
J: Oh yeah. It's pretty crazy.
D: I think this album is really interesting because the first half of the album, like “CHANGE” through “The Dying Song”, are like all just kind of bangers. For the most part.
A: Yeah.
D: Like “Complex” is a little bit not, and “For Your Love” is definitely not, but the rest of the front half of the album are bangers. Like pop, like proper fucking pop songs with like a very like a, B, A, C, whatever the like, you know, like verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus form is. Like all of them are like that. And then from “Showyourself” on it is like weird artpop for the most part.
J: Yeah.
D: Which I think is an interesting way to structure an album. Like you lure people in with this, like “look at it's a cool like poppy album”. And I was like, “oh this is like a nice like summer, like a Hot Girl summer album.” And then I was like, “I'm going to cry now.” [Laughter] “Time to go be sad.” Like the meme where the person's face is just completely surrounded by shadow.
J: Drastic change.
D: It's just really like that. It's really funny because every review I read of this album was like, “yeah, it's a complex album, like no pun intended, like genuinely. It's a complex album.” Horrible, horrible pun. [Pause] Did you guys do any other research on it, that you found like cool or whatever?
J: I just, I mean. I didn't know what.. to be honest.. I didn't know what Stockholm syndrome was at first. So I was like, “ok, what's that? Because that’s interesting”.
D: Right.
J: And I mean, just that whole idea of being like in this toxic, codependent relationship, I've felt that, too.
D: Wow.
J: And that is just very relatable and like hit home. And then I think there is, in “Complex” there's this part where she just repeats “messiah complex”.. Like under some lead vocals, and then there's a whole part about it.
D: Yeah.
A: Yeah.
J: That's also an interesting thing too.
D: Another really good album that does this thing is an album by a band called Joy Wave, called Content, but its content and also content as in like to be happy. And the album is about like, “how do I continue to produce things that I like but stay happy?” It's like, “how do I continue to make content and be content?” And it's a really good duality. And this album does it too, a little bit. Like.. you have this complex and this situation is complex.
A: Right?!
J: I like it. I like the dual meaning.
D: I like word-play. She has a really good slant rhyme in there.. in Stockholm Syndrome where she rhymes the word “cheating” with “lesbian”. Like you thought I was cheating with the girl from the venue.. but she wasn't a lesbian. And I think that's like.. oh, it's a really good slam.
J: Yeah.
D: I don't know. She like.. she's really good at wordplay. Like she's really good with her.. like she's very articulate to begin with and clearly is thoughtful about the words that she's writing and uses them very deliberately, which I appreciate. But she's also good at that, like wordplay and twisting things in a way I really appreciate.
J: Yeah.
A: There's a part in, I think in “READY”.. the last song where she just like throws in something about the wage gap.
J: Ooo.
A: Which if you listen to the song deeper, it's kind of about that too. It’s just like.. I wasn’t expecting that.
D: Yeah, it's also like the poppiest.. like it sounds like just any pop song out of any of the songs on the album. Except it's not like if you dig into the lyrics, and I just like literally right before we recorded went and watched the two music videos for the album, which I desperately want to talk about-and the first one is ready. It's very much about.. I don't know if the song necessarily is about this too much, but the video is about the climate crisis. Like not subtly about it, like there is text on the screen and a dude reading a poem about climate change.
J: Yeah.
D: And it's structured around, like, a student like climate strike, basically. And it’s just weird.
J: It's so good that, like, body image issues are being addressed and climate issues are being addressed in these songs and stuff. I just think that's that's really good to do.
A: Yeah.
D: Yeah.
A: I like how she's not, like, afraid to touch on this stuff without like.. some people try to be, like, super subtle with it.
D: Right.
A: And make it seem like they’re not really talking about it.
D: And then in that one song, “is this all I am good for?”, she’s like, “I wake up, I measure the skin around my waist and I have a fucking existential crisis about myself”
J: Yeah.
D: She she takes an art form, pop music, and just like makes it devoid of all.. Like assessing the subtlety of lyrics in pop music, pop lyrics are very general a lot of the time. Like they're just kind of broad, vague feelings because pop is designed to be popular. Like, that's understandable. And she's like, “yeah this one is about me, like, hating my body.” Like no fucking metaphore, no, nothing. And to your point, Ash, if someone asked me to describe this album in one word I would say that it's “vulnerable.” And you said she's not afraid to talk about this stuff. And I'm not trying to mince words because you're right. Like the album is like a public thing. But I think that one of the things that's the most fascinating is that.. the hesitancy to talk about it is apparent in the way that she writes about it.
A: Yeah, thats true.
D: Even if it is really blunt, she's still like, I don't know, there's something that feels like she's like, it feels reluctant and like she's.. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't feel like she's like, “I had body image issues.” She's like, “this is a current struggle for me. This is what I'm going through right now. And it's hard for me to say this, but I'm going to.”
J: Yeah. Sometimes it's good to voice your emotion.
D: Mm hmm.
J: She's voicing it to a lot of people.
D: She really is, yeah. Which is, you know, ultimately Ashley's like, completely correct. Like, yeah.. she's not afraid to talk about it because she's, like, putting it on a fucking record.
A: Yeah pretty much.
[Laughter]
D: I don't know, I just I feel I can feel.. and maybe it's me projecting because, like, I get the body image issues thing, I get the self health issues thing.
J: I feel like a lot of people, you know, like..
A: Yeah.
D: Yeah. I mean, like it's inherently relatable. At least I mean.. you know, not everyone has body image issues. Right? But a lot of people struggle with self-worth in one way or another. And like body image issues are just like a finer point in that broad issue. Right? So, like, I don't know.. I just I find this album and this person fascinating. Do either of you.. I know Johnny did briefly, like right before.. Did you, Ash, get a chance to watch either of the music videos for this album?
A: I did not, no.
D: Ok. I didn't explicitly request that you did, and I wasn't going to either, but then I was just like, “oh, there's music videos!”. The one for “READY” is like, just like, very much like a political activist type thing. And it is interestingly shot. Like I'm not a cinematography type person, but I'm sure you could, like, get deep into the analysis of the weird decisions that are made in that video. I'm not going to do that though, because I want to talk about the one for "For Your Love". And I want to talk about that song real quick, because that song is really cool. It has a moment in it that displays what I think Montaigne is the best at; which is creating these little parts in songs that make you go, “oh, fuck.”
A: Yes! Exactly!
J: Yeah.
D: In “READY”, the bridge to “READY”, is this like haunting vocal riff. It's the whole bridge.. and it's a pop song, and then it has this really haunting vocal riff.
J: Yeah.
D: And there's other points in that, and you know, maybe it's just me picking out lyrics, but like in "is this all I am good for?" there's a good lyric that's like, “you have a soft spot for my soft spots”. which I was like, I don't know, it just feels like a very pointed, like she knows when to use these very specific, very poignant terms. And the one that I think is the best in the entire album is in "For Your Love", which is this, like, slow-building song about like a relationship and like what you've done to try to keep the relationship alive. And it kind of just, you know.. feeling free once you feel like you don't have to do that, you don't have that burden anymore. That's at least what I get from it. I don't know if you guys have any different opinions about it, but at the very end of the first chorus she has a line that's like, “smoking out your buddy, with your friends who want to fuck me”, and it just ends the verse abruptly and then goes into the chorus.. like just really suddenly, because it's a really, really, like, large thing to say in a song. Like, it's very specific.
J: The music that goes along there, too, is like super.. It just feels super dark and just like..
D: It just like drops, like off a fucking cliff.
A: Yeah the bass.
D: Like a sliding-down note into the chorus. Like it just drops out from under you in a really cool way.
J: Yeah.
D: So I find that song really.. I mean I just.. I find the whole album interesting obviously, but that song in particular..
J: On that little sliding riff I think she says, “I am a delight.” And it's so ironic because it's like that word, I'm a “delight”, but it's just like the harshest thing.
D: She's like, “your friends want to fuck me.” And she's like, “I'm a fucking delight.” I appreciate the.. sidenote.. I appreciate those things in this album. Like, this album is very clearly like personal and like private to her, but there are those moments in this album where she’s like “I kick ass”, and I’m like, “You do Jessica. Go.. fuck yeah Montaigne!” So there's this one.. So the music video for "For Your Love", which is already a really cool song, is perhaps one of the strangest music videos I've ever seen--in that I was watching it and I was like, and my office has like glass doors, and I like was like, “I feel like I shouldn't be watching this with like other people able to see”, because it was uncomfortable as fuck and I'll explain why. So it opens up and she's like.. it's like very cinematic. It's shot kind of in the style of like Alfred Hitchcock, or maybe kind of like David Lynch. It feels like an old school horror movie, the way that it's shot. So it pans up on her sitting in like an old, pretty, like, you know, ‘65 Chevy Camaro or some shit. And she's you know, like singing this song or whatever. And then she's like outside of a house, and then it cuts to her in the house, in the bedroom sitting on the bed just like staring at the wall singing this song--which is like a pretty low energy kind of creepy sounding song. And then she starts fucking tying herself up with a rope.. not like, you know, like.. and I don't mean in a she's like, you know, like.. you're trying to restrain someone in like it's a sex thing.. like in a bondage is what I'm saying.
[Laughter]
D: I'm saying she starts, like, performing like harness bondage on herself. And then the next shot is, there's a lyric in the song that's like, oh, what is it.. It's something about being like a snake.
A: “I've been a snake. I've been a dog.” That one?
D: Yeah, something like that. So like, yeah, I have been a snake and then you you see her completely bound up wriggling down the hall like a fucking snake. And then the rest of the music video goes on like that.. of her, like, being in different types of like sexual bondage. Like there's one shot of her with what's called a spreader bar, which has cuffs on either end and then there's like an extendable bar.. it's like a bondage thing.. and it's on her wrists and her hands are behind her head and she's like pouring tea with this spreader bar on. Yeah. And then, like, sitting drinking while, like, completely immobilized. So it's another one of the songs on the album that feels like it's very much about being in a shitty relationship, and being trapped in a shitty relationship.
J: Yeah.
D: And it is like the most literal metaphor that she could have gone with. Like, “I'm literally bound, like I'm literally bound up and I'm also contributing to it. I'm doing it to myself.”
J: Mhm.
A: Yeah.
D: And then at the end of the music video, which Johnny I don't think you got to..
J: I haven’t, no.
D: She like gets in her car, drives into the middle of the woods, and then sits. And that last shot is her like singing the chorus after the bridge, completely nude in a bird's nest.. like free from any sort of bondage after she was like literally tied to like a fucking clothesline. And I’m sitting here in public, like, I cannot be watching this right now. Like it's a lot.
J: It's a lot to digest.
D: It's just like, I don't know, it made me.. like I already saw that song, I feel like in that kind of light, right? Where I was like, “Oh yeah, it's about a bad relationship. It's about, like, losing that burden.” And it's a super heavy handed metaphor too right? Like, you're being bound by a thing, and at the end of the music video, you're not bound anymore.. because at the end of the music video, and at the end of the song, the character is realizing that they're, you know, free of this burden. You know, not a complicated metaphor.
J: Happy ending.
D: It's just the style in which it's executed is so aggressive.
J: Yeah.
D: And she's like, deadpan at the camera. Watching a human being be bound from their fucking wrists to their chest, wriggling on the floor like a worm--looking you in the eyes, is profoundly fucking upsetting.
A: [Laughs] A little uncomfy.
J: Yeah. Unsettling.
D: I've been going on about this one music video for a while now but, it's interesting to me that this album is a lot about like, “let me tell you about my personal fears and insecurities and shit, and like how I'm getting through it and how I'm getting over it.” And one of the only music videos for the album, she is like, actively doing something that puts her in a, like, weird power dynamic with the audience.
J: Yeah. I think that music video maybe goes into part of her feeling like over sexualized and stuff like that, in a relationship.. and being like, “is this all I'm good for?”
D: Right, yea.
J: And that, like, goes in part with the other song.
D: Yeah. It's clear that relationship issues run at the core, like it's not every song, but a good portion of the songs have something to do with some sort of relationship, even if they're like differing ones. Like, "For Your Love" is clearly about someone she was in a relationship with.. and then "Love Might Be Found (Volcano)" is clearly different, like it's a different relationship. It's a different person. I also.. I will say that I do really appreciate how much her being queer is at the absolute forefront of this album. But its, I don’t know, this is like not a hot-take from a CIS dude, but like I don't know. It's not an album about being gay. It's just like.. it's an album by a, I don't know if she's gay or bi, and it's none of my fucking business quite frankly.. but it's just like a very I don't know.. I appreciate how like her queerness is in the forefront of the album, especially because one of the other things that I'm familiar with her from, is that she is going to be Australia's person to send a Eurovision this year.. if you guys know what Eurovision is. And for those that don't, Eurovision is a song contest that a lot of European countries send someone to. And it's like Buckwild, like it's fucking crazy. Like one year, like I don't know, I think it was Russia that sent, like, two women to perform a pop duet, and they, like, made it look like they were conjoined twins by their ponytails. Another year one was like some dude running around in a hamster wheel during the entirety of someone else's song. One year, the winner, I think she was from Estonia.. was this, like, bearded drag queen. Like, it's a very queer like thing. And Australia is a part of it for some reason, even though Australia is not in Europe. And so, like, they were going to send her last year with a single of hers called “Don't Break Me”, which is also a really good song that's not on this album. But obviously Eurovision didn't happen because of the pandemic and they're trying to do it this year, and so Australia is sending her again with a song called Technicolor, which is also very sexual. Like, I don't know, her sexuality.. or not her sexuality in that she is queer.. but her sexuality in, like, her being a sexual person is very much in the forefront of her music. Which I think is cool, and is like.. I don’t know.. it's interesting to hear about just from like an analytical lens.
J: Yeah.
A: Yeah. I feel like she's taking back some power, because I think I was listening to something she said.. And it it was probably about “For Your Love” music video and song. She was like, “yeah, I was in this relationship with a guy and he really wanted to do, like, all these crazy sexual things. And I kind of went along with it.” But then she realized at the end that, like, that's not her.
D: Right?
J: Yeah.
A: Yeah. Freedom.
D: There's all these little things.
J: Maybe the nest is like new.. like you were saying.. it's like rebirth.
D: It totally is. Because she's sitting there, completely nude, like covering herself in it in a very, like, renaissance painting-esq kind of way.. and Renaissance paintings come from the Renaissance, which comes from the French word “renaissance”, which means rebirth. I feel like that's an over analyzation.. but also like.. just looking at her music and her music videos.. like, it could be not. It very much looks like something.
J: The album is.. Complex.
D: It’s very complex. Ok, and speaking also of Renaissance shit, regarding Montaigne.. the name Montaigne comes from a French essayist and philosopher, Michel de Montaigne--who is known for--I don't really know much about his philosophy. I don't really know much about him either, but like his whole thing.. like he basically created the idea of writing an essay. Like that format of critical.. or of expression.. is like Montaigne's shit. And in all of his portraits, he is depicted wearing a rough like a Shakespeare-style rough. And for the two of you who have looked at the album art for this album..
A: She's wearing a rough!
D: She's literally wearing a rough. I just realized this before we started recording and I was like, “Oh, that's a thing that's like a reference to the person who she's naming herself after.”
A: Damn.
D: Yeah, I don't know. There's like all these little things about her, all these little things about this artist and this album where I’m like, “Oh,it's so cool!”
J: So much depth.
D: Nice little, like, salty, spicy little like cool thing.
J: Yeah. Oh yeah.
A: For sure.
D: Yeah. You guys have other thoughts about the album.. any of the songs?
[Pause]
D: Can we just talk about the song "I am a Clown" for a second? I just think it's a good song and I want to know what you guys think about it.
J: It is a good song. Let me listen to it again real quick.
D: What the fuck does that mean by the way? Because the lyric, “if my tongue is in my mouth, we're not meant to be”, is very good. And also that she's like, “you should have found, I am a clown.” And I'm like, “what the fuck?” I’m going to look at the lyrics real quick. I got to see what it is.
J: I don’t even.. I don’t even know.
A: I really like the drums in this one. It's kind of like it sounds like she's hitting a can or something.
D: Yeah.
J: I love that. I love the like.. It sounds like someone is drumming on, like, a timbale. I think this is the one.
D: She just.. the percussion in her music is really good. Because like, I feel like you could really easily, with like artpop, just be like, “oh yeah, it's fucking..”
J: High hat. Snare.
D: You know, drums like, or like you know, more like hip-hop style like percussion. But like the percussion in this is one of the more stand up.. I mean all of the instrumentation is quite interesting.. and her use of strings is really unique. But like her percussion is--and I don't think she's a percussionist either--so this is like a collaborative effort I would imagine.
J: I think it's just cool how much different stuff she's added to the instrumental mix.
D: Right!
J: And it's apparent in that song.
D: She's just a Renaissance woman, man. She's just adding in all this weird shit. In the podcast that I heard her interviewed in that turned me on to her, she said something like she wanted to, like, acknowledge like a frequent collaborator of hers. And she was like, “Yeah, he, like always supports me with all the weird shit that I want to do--and like, hears me out.” And I was like, “that's cool.” Like, I can see how that, like, idea of like just, oh, I had this weird fucking idea and it like made it to the actual studio and like onto the track too. The lyrics of “I am a Clown”.. the second verse starts with, “My cheeks are bright red. I am a bird. Hyena-ic laughter. You probably heard.” Hyena-ic laughter?
A: Yeah. What is that word?
D: Like a hyena.
A: Who uses that?
D: It's so GOOD! Who takes the word hyena, makes it into an adjective, and then is like, “Yeah. Hyena-ic laughter. You’ve probably heard my hyena-ic laughter.”
A: Of course.
J: Of course.
[Pause]
J: Or what about “bird”? Like where does that fit in?
D: Yeah.. why the fuck? Like, I get, “My cheeks are bright red.”, because the analogy is that “I'm a clown, I'm a clown.” The song is called “I am a Clown”, and she's like, “I am a bird.”
[Laughter]
D: Like, why? Why are you a bird, Montaigne?
J: I thought she was a clown.
D: I don't know. This song is like really weird and sarcastic too, because it has lyrics like, “Life is a joke. And I'm glad I'm around to be in the punchline and to hear the sound of some people laughing. I am a clown. So why do I want those who want me to frown?” Like, what the fuck? Like I get the thing she's making, like it feels like it's kind of the imposter syndrome thing of like, “I feel like a clown around like cool people.” I don't know. That's just like, seems like what it feels like off the top of the dome.
J: Yeah. Its very.. vulnerable.
D: I’m not over that, “if my tongue is in your mouth” lyric though.
[Pause]
D: Can I.. can I read more lyrics from this song?
A: Yes.
D: They’re really good. The first verse is just, “I'm always one hint of a meaningful look from boys with one hint of reading the same books. From dressing myself in some masquerade gown and wearing this frock and my frolicking town. That is Chimera and I am a clown.
J: Chimera?
D: A chimera is like, it's like a mythical beast thats like a lion that has a scorpion's tail and big wings and like shit like that. Also--and this is a side note and you might not know--is that an iambic pentameter?
A: It sounded like it.
D: For those that don't know iambic pentameter, it's a it's a term that Shakespeare uses for like the rhythm of the verse delivered is the rhythm of a heartbeat. There's, like, some variation in like syncopation in it. But like, it's similar.
J: That’s interesting.
D: It's not delivered that way, though, to be fair.. I just kind of write it in iambic pentameter. So it's not really.
J: It would be very interesting if so.
A: Yes.
D: I feel like I just need to do a podcast.. or I just like really just straight read all the lyrics to this album just out loud because they're fucking weird. They're just so strange and clever.
A: She talks about, like, pancakes at one point.
D: I know, like, what's going on?
J: It's so interesting and yet we all get like it's about troublesome love and stuff.
D: Right. Like, we get the idiom and we get the sarcasm.
J: She’s pretty genius.
D: She's just a brilliant writer. Well, I mean, to be fair, this woman is fucking twenty five. Like we're all in our early 20s. She was born in 1995. Like I was born in ‘98. She's three years older than me.
J: Yeah.
D: And is clearly very well. She has two studio albums, both of which have been relatively successful. She's had stuff peak on Australia's charts at like number four.
J: Wow.
D: Yeah. I can't say I can't say enough good things about Montaigne and I can't recommend this album enough to, like, basically anyone. I don't listen to art-pop very much.. Or like indie pop--I listen to a little bit of indie-pop--but like, this album is just cool.
J: It really is.
D: If you like cool lyrics and clever turns of phrase, and interesting instrumentation and composition.. And also Montaigne's sense of fashion is just like kick ass and weird. Like she constantly has like a curly-like pompadour and it fucking kicks ass dude.
[Pause]
D: Any other closing thoughts about Montaigne's “Complex”?
J: It was a great album. I was pleasantly surprised.
D: It’s a good album. Everyone should go listen to it. Cannot recommend it enough because of all the little moments she creates where you're like, “Oh, shit. God, that was good!”
[Pause]
D: So I want to close out the album conversation that we're having with, like, a good choice lyric from all of us. Who wants to go first?
J: I’ll go.
D: Okay.
J: I chose from "is this all I am good for?". It’s the chorus.. “and every day I wake up and measure the skin around my waist. Is this all I'm good for?” That just hit hard. That she thinks that and deals with that problem.. and probably so many other people deal with that problem.
D: The word in that lyric for me that really impresses its meaning is “every day.” every day I wake up and measure the skin around my waist. “Every day I have the thought about, is this all I'm good for?” Am I good enough? Right?
J: Yeah, it makes it like eternal. It adds so much.
D: Right! It is constant. It is not a one time thing. It is not a dark hour. It is a routine.
J: Yeah.
A: Right.
D: What about you, Ash?
A: So mine comes from "Please You" and it's verse two. It says, “Do you know what I've done to my mind for your handshake. It was the first one I got that just wants to feel a pancake. Though. we try really hard to feel no one else is broken, this is my damn song and I'll end it when I'm done.” I just like the control there and, like, the whole song is about pleasing others and pleasing ourselves, or herself. So yeah. And also I had to throw in the pancake line because it was cool.
D: Yeah.. it's the pancake line right?
A: It really was the pancake. I really like the start of that, the like, “do you know what I've done to my mind?” That part of it is really interesting because that song is about.. you know.. it seems to be at least like pleasing other people--being a people pleaser--which is interesting because then like two songs later, there's a song called “Pleasure”, which is assumingly about pleasure. Ok, mine is also from "is this all I am good for?" Which makes me think that I was correct in saying that it was my favorite song, because Johnny and I both like it. I'm going to read the whole fucking first verse because it's all very good. It starts with what I pointed out before.. “You have a soft spot for my soft spots. Confer some softness upon my hard mind. I wish to be present. My desire deters that. I have a thirst and maybe no one can quench it. I watched Nick Cave's long legs and their steps stoked my anxieties. I will never be a swanish, dark man with an ever darkening voice. I am bright and awful, garish and young and trying to be coarse and dexterous and something I'm not.” I'm fascinated by this album because..this is not necessarily true.. this is just my understanding. My understanding is that Montaigne is a CIS woman. And the second half of that verse is, “I watched Nick Cave's long legs.” I don't know who Nick Cave is, but I assume he's a man because his name is Nick, and then she says he's a man. And those steps stoked my anxieties and I'll never be this man with this voice and these like long legs. And I was like, that's interesting, because if I wrote that--me being kind of a thick boy--I feel like that's like a reasonable and understandable lyric coming from like a man talking about body image issues, being like, I watch this skinny, handsome guy. And I was like, “why am I not that?” But hearing that from Montaigne is really interesting because she's a woman talking about, like, “I watched this man and I was like, why am I not like that man?” is, I feel like,an inherently a queer thing of her to say. I feel like that's inherently speaking to a trans experience in a way that I was not expecting in that album and that I was like, “Wow, I--not as a trans person--really relate to that.” And that seems like something that I wouldn't like, you know, like it seems like, OK, yeah. You know, people who have body image issues. Right. Like I, you know, I've been there whatever. I wasn't expecting to relate to that degree, you know, like other than the broad topic of it. And also just the word choice of, “I am bright, an awful garish and young and trying to be coarse and dextrous and something I'm not.”
J: The word choice there. Yes. That got to me.
D: “Bright and awful. Garish and young.” is so good, especially if you know what Montaigne looks like and how she dresses herself in like bright-ass fucking clothes with bright-ass hair, like super loud prints and all that kind of shit. And I'm like, “yeah!”
J: That really reminds me of like, the Renaissance type feel too.
D: Yeah.. “bright and awful garishness.”
A: “Swanish.”
J: Yeah.
D: Swanish. Yeah. Swanish, dark man with an ever darkening voice is.. it's just good. It's just.. just don't even fucking listen to the album. Just go read all the lyrics.
[Laughter]
J: Yeah.
D: Because you can read them the way that we're reading them, like literally just reading them like poetry.. because they read like poetry.
J: They really do.
D: Anyway.. Well, thank you very much for tuning into another, and ever-changing episode of Out of Phase.
[Music fades in]
D: We’re trying to do them on a monthly basis--we'll see how they go--but we're probably going to stick with this album discussion format because it's pretty free form and makes it pretty easy on us. So I hope you enjoyed. Thank you, Ashley and Johnny, for coming on. It's really good to talk to you guys about this. I'm glad we all had all these interesting thoughts about this woman's work.
J: It was super fun to be on.
A: Yeah thanks for having me.
D: Awesome! Well, we will see you guys next time. Go listen to Complex, it's very good.
[Music fades out]
[End]
Out of Phase Episode 14 Transcript
D: Drew
A: Ashley
J: Johnny
D: It's so GOOD. Who uses the.. Who takes the word hyena.. Makes it into a, like, adjective and then is like, yeah, hyen-ic laughter? You've probably heard my hyen-ic laughter. Like I get “my cheeks are bright red” because the analogy is like “I'm a clown, I'm a clown,” the song is called “I am a Clown”, but she’s like “I am a bird.” I’m like “Why?! Why are you a bird?”
[Music stops.]
D: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Out of Phase, the podcast presented by Portland State Professional Sound. Guess what has changed in the format again? This show is like nebulous and fluid and will never have a specific purpose, ever. [Laughs] It's music related still, we're not talking about like, I don't know.. What do you think about cars? I'm still Drew. That's still me. I still exist. I'm hanging out. Here today I have two guests with me. First off, we've got Ash. Ashley say hi.
A: Hi.
D: Ash has been on the podcast.. this is your second time? We talked about covers last summer. You were on in the first iteration in the first season of the podcast.
A: Yeah, it's been a while.
D: It's been a minute.. yeah. And we also have Johnny. Hey, Johnny.
J: Hey.
D: Johnny is our.. uh.. he's been on with us. He hasn't been on the show before, but he's actually our new general manager. So Johnny's now my boss. [Laughter] Yeah. So I'm going to grill Johnny because Ash has been on the show before. Johnny, what kind of music are you into? What kind of styles do you listen to?
J: I listen to.. Well, I'm a percussionist, so a lot of the time I listen to music, I spend it playing on a marimba and stuff. So yeah. So like I'm playing a piece called Verono Porteño and it's this piece, it's kind of a tango, which is really fun. And then I've been listening to this album a lot recently.. and I always love some Herbie Hancock, its so good, and jazz and Kendrick Lamar, rap, hip hop.
D: Nice. What kind of stuff is.. like what brings you to like.. I mean, like, I know this, but like for the audience, why do you work here? Like what? What brings you into the audio engineering field as a musician?
J: Well, I mean, my love for music and just like where music is going.. it's being incorporated with a bunch more electronic stuff. And it it's really valuable to know more about that realm of music. And it's also just really interesting to me and like the possibilities that can come out of adding, you know, working in DAWs and whatnot. And just this kind of work, being around live concerts a lot is something that.. obviously it's not happening right now and. And we’re recording a podcast and stuff.
D: Right now we just record podcasts in our fucking rooms like idiots.
J: But, hey, it's about music and it's fun. And that's why I love doing it.
D: Right. Yeah. So you and Ash in a similar place, the like, whole, you’re trying to be the jack of all trades. “I'm going to be a musician and also an engineer and also a producer and also everything else.” And then there's me and I'm like, “I'm going to do one thing.” [Laugh] “I'm going to do one thing and thats going to be it.”
J: You’ll be really good at it.
D: Yeah. So this week, I guess I should talk about what the format is. I kind of just said the formats changing, uh.. formats changing. We're going to talk about, just like an album I think. It's going to probably be around like three people each time. I'm going to be here. Hopefully we can start transitioning into me not being the constant host at some point because I do unfortunately have to graduate at a certain point and I don't get to work here anymore. Yeah, so sad. I'm the ancient leviathan that still exists at PSPS.
J: You have so much knowledge.
D: Do I though? [Laughter] I mean.. I have some.
J: You have more than me.
D: Well yeah, I guess, but like, I don't know how to play marimba.. anymore. But yeah. So at some point I won't be on the show anymore and someone else will have to forget how to introduce the show every single time. But not this week. This week we are transitioning to another new format after our short lived music history podcast part. We're going to talk about an album that I suggested called Complex or Com-plex. I don't know if it's like the noun or the adjective. I like stuff like that. I'm going to assume it's complex, like the adjective, by an artist called Montaigne. So a little bit about Montaigne. She is a 25 year old singer songwriter art-pop kind of person from Australia. She's from New South Wales, Sydney, you know, the only city on Australia most of us know. Her actual.. her birth name.. Well, her real name, Montaigne's the stage name, is Jessica Alyssa Cerro. And she's kind of just been doing music since she was in high school, honestly, like it seems that she graduated high school and started working on her career as a songwriter and as a musician because she clearly has some significant natural talent. I personally came upon Montaigne through kind of a weird means of finding a musician. I listen to a podcast that recently needed to change their theme song, like their intro song, because the person who wrote it turned out to be kind of.. like had said some shitty stuff on Twitter like ten years ago. And they were like “Yeah, fuck that guy, we need a new theme song.”
J: Get him outta here.
D: And she is a listener of the podcast. So she was like, “I’ll write a theme song for you.” And they were like, “OK!”. And so I, you know, heard this new song for this podcast I've been listening to forever. And I was like, “That. Fucking. Slaps!” And then they had her on the show and she was like, really cool and kind and charming. And I was like, “I need to check her music out.” And I absolutely adore it.
J: It’s really good.
A: Yeah.
D: So I made these two listen to it. So we listened to her sophomore album, Complex or Com-plex. We're going to assume its the adjective. Its a 2019 album. Singles were coming out for it, though, for a couple of years. That's about it. I want to know.. I've listened to this album, like in the last month I've listened to it at least like two or three times a week because I really, really think it's super cool. I want to know from the two of you what you're like, gut-check first reaction was to it. Just like the first.. what did you get from it? Like immediately, without like, digging into it more.
A: I don't know. I thought her voice really reminded me of like, Murena and Kimbra very much.
D: Yes.
A: I don't know. It's cool. You could tell that she is very like, stream of consciousness with the lyrics a little bit, but also like she has really good control over her vocals which is nice.. and yeah.
D: Yeah, she's really clearly a very talented musician, but also very specifically a talented vocalist because she has this like crazy like dynamic range and good breath.. I used to like, do choirs so.. She has good breath support, like you can hear that. She is, like, supporting these like powerful notes with, like, good breathing technique and stuff. What about you, Johnny?
J: Yeah, I agree. Just like the first thing that stuck out to me was just her singing and like how good she was and how good she sounded. Like with your comment on breath support and stuff. And another thing is like the variety of instruments that she used.
D: Yeah!
J: It felt like there are a lot of different instruments. Like with the use of strings. It kind of reminded me of some of the Beatles and their use of strings.
A: Yeah.
J: And I heard flutes at some point and then there is a bunch of different percussion. Like I heard in.. I don't know if it was.. I think it was in “CHANGE”, there is tabla. I think, I think.
D: I don't even know what that is.. What is that?
J: They're Indian drums. I think they might have been tabla.
D: I know what you're talking about. There's like a bridge.
J: They’re like hand drums. But yeah, just like so many cool percussion elements. And in another one I thought there was some timbales too.
D: Mhm.
J: And then just like the depth of the lyrics, like how, how deep the lyrics went with the meanings that you mentioned, like try listening to this for, for meaning and lyrics and stuff. And I was like “Wow, there's a lot of meaning here.”
D: There's a lot of meat on that bone, there's a lot. I read something in an interview where she was talking about this, and about this album, and all the songs were kind of written over several different years. And then were all put together into one album. It wasn't like written front to back, all in like one time period. And she.. she put it in a way that was like, “I would write a song at a certain point in my life about like something that was like, like some sort of like secret, or like something in the back of my head that was bothering me. Like some insecurity or something like that.” Like this album is full of that stuff. It's full of like, breakup songs, and like songs about like body image issues, and like stuff, like that; which I think is fascinating, especially because it wasn't written with like one specific purpose in mind. It seems like it was just like, “I wrote a song about, like, how shitty this relationship is or whatever. Right? And then it's in this album. And there's like I mean, for that example, like there's a couple of “like this relationship is bad” songs. And I would have thought they were all about one relationship, not knowing that, but they're all, I would assume, about different things.
J: That's really interesting because I just thought it was about one relationship.
D: I think that this album, my first reaction to this album was this is a breakup album like this is this is an album mostly, I mean there's some other stuff, but, you know..I was like, oh, this is mainly about like going through a shitty breakup or whatever. But then I, like, looked in closer and like, the thing that made me realize it wasn't that, is.. there's a song at the end of the album called “I am a Clown”z`. And one of the lyrics in the chorus is, “if my tongue's in my mouth, we're not meant to be”, which is like, that's not breakup lyric.. that's a sex lyric. That’s a like, “I'm having bad sex” kind of lyric. And I was like, “oh, OK”, this is more than that. This is more complex than that. Right? It's not just, like, a breakup album. [Pause] OK. The way that I want to break this conversation down, for right now, I want to know what your favorite song was and what you think the most interesting song was.. And those could be the same song. For me, they're not. So I want to know if you have this disparity of like a song you're like, “that's a fucking good song”, and then another song where you're like, “whoa, what's going on? That's fascinating”.
J: I do. I have two different songs.
D: Ok Johnny, what are yours?
J: Ok. Mine are.. I like “CHANGE” the most, just like for being like a good song to listen to.
D: It's like a marching song.
J: Yeah, I love it! It's just like so driving, and just like carries you along. And then the song that I think is like.. What was the other criteria? Most deep, or…
D: What do you think it's the most fascinating?
J: Yeah, most fascinating…
D: What just like, like picks your brain the most?
J: Probably.. “is this all I am good for?”.
D: Ok. What about you, Ash?
A: It's hard because there's a lot of good ones on here, but I think I really liked Love Might Be Found (Volcano)” because, I was listening to an interview.. I really like how that song, like the hook in that song to begin with, but I was listening to her talk about it.
D: It’s so good!
A: Yeah. And she's just like talking about how like she was in this relationship and she had to leave at some point, but like they were in L.A. and she wanted to.. she was like hoping like, what if like a volcano or like a storm was able to keep her in L.A., so she could, like, pursue this thing. [Short pause] I think it would either be that one or like “Showyourself”, which I didn't really like musically, because it's just kind of a short interlude.
D: Yeah, it's interesting.
A: But her lyrics are like, “my thoughts were finally ripe, but there was no one to feed them. Now they're fermenting.” And like you were talking about how she compiled this over several years. And like, I just feel like that's her saying, like, now I'm ready to put this all on an album. Like, “I have to get it out of me.”
D: I have not made that connection before.
J: I didn’t either.
D: It’s very clever.
J: That is.
A: Yeah.
D: Ok, so what I was saying when I rudely interrupted you was I really like the song Losing My Mind. I don't feel like I understand fully what it is about. I just think it's really.. I really like the hook and the chorus of like, “I don't know what I'm doing, I'm completely out of control, I don't know how to..” She uses a flying metaphor for, like, I think it's about anxiety. Like she doesn't know how to come down from being anxious. The metaphor is “I've flown so long, I've forgotten how to land.” And I.. get it. Like I feel that. I feel that, like I'm like, I don't know what to do now. Right?
J: Yeah.
D: And it is also just a really good pop song. My personal favorite song is, “is this all I'm good for?”. I think it's also a fascinating song. I don't think it's the most fascinating one, but I really like it. I think it's a really like instrumentally interesting song because it's mostly percussion and folk, like it's mostly like a kick drum and vocals and I think a glockenspiel.
J: Yeah.. yeah.
D: And like a small metallic marimba of some sort.
J: Muted.
D: Yeah. It's like dead, it's like they're hitting it but they're just like holding the mallet on the key as it hits. It's a really interesting song. But then theres also these really cool strings in it as well. And also, you know, like it's very clearly a song about body image issues and self-worth issues. And like, we can all probably relate to that a little bit. I know that I can! It's fun. But in my opinion, the most interesting song is Stockholm Syndrome.
J: That's a very interesting song.
A: That’s a good one.
D: I don't think it's necessarily a unique idea for a song because it basically takes this like, “I'm in a codependent, bad relationship” and compares it to Stockholm syndrome, which is, you know, not the first time that's been done. But I think that the way that it's done, like the execution of it, including the fact that the music.. the song itself is really stressful to listen to.
A: Mhm.
J: Yeah.
D: And it's just like it just continues to move. Like there's not really a chorus. It just keeps going forward. Like it's just one long verse, but it's like a five minute song and it's just really anxiety provoking.
J: Oh yeah.
D: In a way that I appreciate. And it's driving like that. The rhythmic element of it. It's like incredibly driving.
J: Yeah. That like, repeating triplet. [Emulates rhythm]
D: Yeah.
A: Yeah!
D: It's so like.. it just stresses me out. Like I am not joking. When I listen to this album I usually skip that song.
A: Hm.
D: Not because I don't think it's good, but just because sometimes I'm like, “I can't, I can't do it right now.” It genuinely stresses me out a little.
J: Yeah. I have listened to it just because it's like, that kind of song just like gets me, I don't know.. It like hypes me up.. [Laughter].. just like that instrumental aspect and stuff.
D: Right.
J: Oh yeah. It's pretty crazy.
D: I think this album is really interesting because the first half of the album, like “CHANGE” through “The Dying Song”, are like all just kind of bangers. For the most part.
A: Yeah.
D: Like “Complex” is a little bit not, and “For Your Love” is definitely not, but the rest of the front half of the album are bangers. Like pop, like proper fucking pop songs with like a very like a, B, A, C, whatever the like, you know, like verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus form is. Like all of them are like that. And then from “Showyourself” on it is like weird artpop for the most part.
J: Yeah.
D: Which I think is an interesting way to structure an album. Like you lure people in with this, like “look at it's a cool like poppy album”. And I was like, “oh this is like a nice like summer, like a Hot Girl summer album.” And then I was like, “I'm going to cry now.” [Laughter] “Time to go be sad.” Like the meme where the person's face is just completely surrounded by shadow.
J: Drastic change.
D: It's just really like that. It's really funny because every review I read of this album was like, “yeah, it's a complex album, like no pun intended, like genuinely. It's a complex album.” Horrible, horrible pun. [Pause] Did you guys do any other research on it, that you found like cool or whatever?
J: I just, I mean. I didn't know what.. to be honest.. I didn't know what Stockholm syndrome was at first. So I was like, “ok, what's that? Because that’s interesting”.
D: Right.
J: And I mean, just that whole idea of being like in this toxic, codependent relationship, I've felt that, too.
D: Wow.
J: And that is just very relatable and like hit home. And then I think there is, in “Complex” there's this part where she just repeats “messiah complex”.. Like under some lead vocals, and then there's a whole part about it.
D: Yeah.
A: Yeah.
J: That's also an interesting thing too.
D: Another really good album that does this thing is an album by a band called Joy Wave, called Content, but its content and also content as in like to be happy. And the album is about like, “how do I continue to produce things that I like but stay happy?” It's like, “how do I continue to make content and be content?” And it's a really good duality. And this album does it too, a little bit. Like.. you have this complex and this situation is complex.
A: Right?!
J: I like it. I like the dual meaning.
D: I like word-play. She has a really good slant rhyme in there.. in Stockholm Syndrome where she rhymes the word “cheating” with “lesbian”. Like you thought I was cheating with the girl from the venue.. but she wasn't a lesbian. And I think that's like.. oh, it's a really good slam.
J: Yeah.
D: I don't know. She like.. she's really good at wordplay. Like she's really good with her.. like she's very articulate to begin with and clearly is thoughtful about the words that she's writing and uses them very deliberately, which I appreciate. But she's also good at that, like wordplay and twisting things in a way I really appreciate.
J: Yeah.
A: There's a part in, I think in “READY”.. the last song where she just like throws in something about the wage gap.
J: Ooo.
A: Which if you listen to the song deeper, it's kind of about that too. It’s just like.. I wasn’t expecting that.
D: Yeah, it's also like the poppiest.. like it sounds like just any pop song out of any of the songs on the album. Except it's not like if you dig into the lyrics, and I just like literally right before we recorded went and watched the two music videos for the album, which I desperately want to talk about-and the first one is ready. It's very much about.. I don't know if the song necessarily is about this too much, but the video is about the climate crisis. Like not subtly about it, like there is text on the screen and a dude reading a poem about climate change.
J: Yeah.
D: And it's structured around, like, a student like climate strike, basically. And it’s just weird.
J: It's so good that, like, body image issues are being addressed and climate issues are being addressed in these songs and stuff. I just think that's that's really good to do.
A: Yeah.
D: Yeah.
A: I like how she's not, like, afraid to touch on this stuff without like.. some people try to be, like, super subtle with it.
D: Right.
A: And make it seem like they’re not really talking about it.
D: And then in that one song, “is this all I am good for?”, she’s like, “I wake up, I measure the skin around my waist and I have a fucking existential crisis about myself”
J: Yeah.
D: She she takes an art form, pop music, and just like makes it devoid of all.. Like assessing the subtlety of lyrics in pop music, pop lyrics are very general a lot of the time. Like they're just kind of broad, vague feelings because pop is designed to be popular. Like, that's understandable. And she's like, “yeah this one is about me, like, hating my body.” Like no fucking metaphore, no, nothing. And to your point, Ash, if someone asked me to describe this album in one word I would say that it's “vulnerable.” And you said she's not afraid to talk about this stuff. And I'm not trying to mince words because you're right. Like the album is like a public thing. But I think that one of the things that's the most fascinating is that.. the hesitancy to talk about it is apparent in the way that she writes about it.
A: Yeah, thats true.
D: Even if it is really blunt, she's still like, I don't know, there's something that feels like she's like, it feels reluctant and like she's.. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't feel like she's like, “I had body image issues.” She's like, “this is a current struggle for me. This is what I'm going through right now. And it's hard for me to say this, but I'm going to.”
J: Yeah. Sometimes it's good to voice your emotion.
D: Mm hmm.
J: She's voicing it to a lot of people.
D: She really is, yeah. Which is, you know, ultimately Ashley's like, completely correct. Like, yeah.. she's not afraid to talk about it because she's, like, putting it on a fucking record.
A: Yeah pretty much.
[Laughter]
D: I don't know, I just I feel I can feel.. and maybe it's me projecting because, like, I get the body image issues thing, I get the self health issues thing.
J: I feel like a lot of people, you know, like..
A: Yeah.
D: Yeah. I mean, like it's inherently relatable. At least I mean.. you know, not everyone has body image issues. Right? But a lot of people struggle with self-worth in one way or another. And like body image issues are just like a finer point in that broad issue. Right? So, like, I don't know.. I just I find this album and this person fascinating. Do either of you.. I know Johnny did briefly, like right before.. Did you, Ash, get a chance to watch either of the music videos for this album?
A: I did not, no.
D: Ok. I didn't explicitly request that you did, and I wasn't going to either, but then I was just like, “oh, there's music videos!”. The one for “READY” is like, just like, very much like a political activist type thing. And it is interestingly shot. Like I'm not a cinematography type person, but I'm sure you could, like, get deep into the analysis of the weird decisions that are made in that video. I'm not going to do that though, because I want to talk about the one for "For Your Love". And I want to talk about that song real quick, because that song is really cool. It has a moment in it that displays what I think Montaigne is the best at; which is creating these little parts in songs that make you go, “oh, fuck.”
A: Yes! Exactly!
J: Yeah.
D: In “READY”, the bridge to “READY”, is this like haunting vocal riff. It's the whole bridge.. and it's a pop song, and then it has this really haunting vocal riff.
J: Yeah.
D: And there's other points in that, and you know, maybe it's just me picking out lyrics, but like in "is this all I am good for?" there's a good lyric that's like, “you have a soft spot for my soft spots”. which I was like, I don't know, it just feels like a very pointed, like she knows when to use these very specific, very poignant terms. And the one that I think is the best in the entire album is in "For Your Love", which is this, like, slow-building song about like a relationship and like what you've done to try to keep the relationship alive. And it kind of just, you know.. feeling free once you feel like you don't have to do that, you don't have that burden anymore. That's at least what I get from it. I don't know if you guys have any different opinions about it, but at the very end of the first chorus she has a line that's like, “smoking out your buddy, with your friends who want to fuck me”, and it just ends the verse abruptly and then goes into the chorus.. like just really suddenly, because it's a really, really, like, large thing to say in a song. Like, it's very specific.
J: The music that goes along there, too, is like super.. It just feels super dark and just like..
D: It just like drops, like off a fucking cliff.
A: Yeah the bass.
D: Like a sliding-down note into the chorus. Like it just drops out from under you in a really cool way.
J: Yeah.
D: So I find that song really.. I mean I just.. I find the whole album interesting obviously, but that song in particular..
J: On that little sliding riff I think she says, “I am a delight.” And it's so ironic because it's like that word, I'm a “delight”, but it's just like the harshest thing.
D: She's like, “your friends want to fuck me.” And she's like, “I'm a fucking delight.” I appreciate the.. sidenote.. I appreciate those things in this album. Like, this album is very clearly like personal and like private to her, but there are those moments in this album where she’s like “I kick ass”, and I’m like, “You do Jessica. Go.. fuck yeah Montaigne!” So there's this one.. So the music video for "For Your Love", which is already a really cool song, is perhaps one of the strangest music videos I've ever seen--in that I was watching it and I was like, and my office has like glass doors, and I like was like, “I feel like I shouldn't be watching this with like other people able to see”, because it was uncomfortable as fuck and I'll explain why. So it opens up and she's like.. it's like very cinematic. It's shot kind of in the style of like Alfred Hitchcock, or maybe kind of like David Lynch. It feels like an old school horror movie, the way that it's shot. So it pans up on her sitting in like an old, pretty, like, you know, ‘65 Chevy Camaro or some shit. And she's you know, like singing this song or whatever. And then she's like outside of a house, and then it cuts to her in the house, in the bedroom sitting on the bed just like staring at the wall singing this song--which is like a pretty low energy kind of creepy sounding song. And then she starts fucking tying herself up with a rope.. not like, you know, like.. and I don't mean in a she's like, you know, like.. you're trying to restrain someone in like it's a sex thing.. like in a bondage is what I'm saying.
[Laughter]
D: I'm saying she starts, like, performing like harness bondage on herself. And then the next shot is, there's a lyric in the song that's like, oh, what is it.. It's something about being like a snake.
A: “I've been a snake. I've been a dog.” That one?
D: Yeah, something like that. So like, yeah, I have been a snake and then you you see her completely bound up wriggling down the hall like a fucking snake. And then the rest of the music video goes on like that.. of her, like, being in different types of like sexual bondage. Like there's one shot of her with what's called a spreader bar, which has cuffs on either end and then there's like an extendable bar.. it's like a bondage thing.. and it's on her wrists and her hands are behind her head and she's like pouring tea with this spreader bar on. Yeah. And then, like, sitting drinking while, like, completely immobilized. So it's another one of the songs on the album that feels like it's very much about being in a shitty relationship, and being trapped in a shitty relationship.
J: Yeah.
D: And it is like the most literal metaphor that she could have gone with. Like, “I'm literally bound, like I'm literally bound up and I'm also contributing to it. I'm doing it to myself.”
J: Mhm.
A: Yeah.
D: And then at the end of the music video, which Johnny I don't think you got to..
J: I haven’t, no.
D: She like gets in her car, drives into the middle of the woods, and then sits. And that last shot is her like singing the chorus after the bridge, completely nude in a bird's nest.. like free from any sort of bondage after she was like literally tied to like a fucking clothesline. And I’m sitting here in public, like, I cannot be watching this right now. Like it's a lot.
J: It's a lot to digest.
D: It's just like, I don't know, it made me.. like I already saw that song, I feel like in that kind of light, right? Where I was like, “Oh yeah, it's about a bad relationship. It's about, like, losing that burden.” And it's a super heavy handed metaphor too right? Like, you're being bound by a thing, and at the end of the music video, you're not bound anymore.. because at the end of the music video, and at the end of the song, the character is realizing that they're, you know, free of this burden. You know, not a complicated metaphor.
J: Happy ending.
D: It's just the style in which it's executed is so aggressive.
J: Yeah.
D: And she's like, deadpan at the camera. Watching a human being be bound from their fucking wrists to their chest, wriggling on the floor like a worm--looking you in the eyes, is profoundly fucking upsetting.
A: [Laughs] A little uncomfy.
J: Yeah. Unsettling.
D: I've been going on about this one music video for a while now but, it's interesting to me that this album is a lot about like, “let me tell you about my personal fears and insecurities and shit, and like how I'm getting through it and how I'm getting over it.” And one of the only music videos for the album, she is like, actively doing something that puts her in a, like, weird power dynamic with the audience.
J: Yeah. I think that music video maybe goes into part of her feeling like over sexualized and stuff like that, in a relationship.. and being like, “is this all I'm good for?”
D: Right, yea.
J: And that, like, goes in part with the other song.
D: Yeah. It's clear that relationship issues run at the core, like it's not every song, but a good portion of the songs have something to do with some sort of relationship, even if they're like differing ones. Like, "For Your Love" is clearly about someone she was in a relationship with.. and then "Love Might Be Found (Volcano)" is clearly different, like it's a different relationship. It's a different person. I also.. I will say that I do really appreciate how much her being queer is at the absolute forefront of this album. But its, I don’t know, this is like not a hot-take from a CIS dude, but like I don't know. It's not an album about being gay. It's just like.. it's an album by a, I don't know if she's gay or bi, and it's none of my fucking business quite frankly.. but it's just like a very I don't know.. I appreciate how like her queerness is in the forefront of the album, especially because one of the other things that I'm familiar with her from, is that she is going to be Australia's person to send a Eurovision this year.. if you guys know what Eurovision is. And for those that don't, Eurovision is a song contest that a lot of European countries send someone to. And it's like Buckwild, like it's fucking crazy. Like one year, like I don't know, I think it was Russia that sent, like, two women to perform a pop duet, and they, like, made it look like they were conjoined twins by their ponytails. Another year one was like some dude running around in a hamster wheel during the entirety of someone else's song. One year, the winner, I think she was from Estonia.. was this, like, bearded drag queen. Like, it's a very queer like thing. And Australia is a part of it for some reason, even though Australia is not in Europe. And so, like, they were going to send her last year with a single of hers called “Don't Break Me”, which is also a really good song that's not on this album. But obviously Eurovision didn't happen because of the pandemic and they're trying to do it this year, and so Australia is sending her again with a song called Technicolor, which is also very sexual. Like, I don't know, her sexuality.. or not her sexuality in that she is queer.. but her sexuality in, like, her being a sexual person is very much in the forefront of her music. Which I think is cool, and is like.. I don’t know.. it's interesting to hear about just from like an analytical lens.
J: Yeah.
A: Yeah. I feel like she's taking back some power, because I think I was listening to something she said.. And it it was probably about “For Your Love” music video and song. She was like, “yeah, I was in this relationship with a guy and he really wanted to do, like, all these crazy sexual things. And I kind of went along with it.” But then she realized at the end that, like, that's not her.
D: Right?
J: Yeah.
A: Yeah. Freedom.
D: There's all these little things.
J: Maybe the nest is like new.. like you were saying.. it's like rebirth.
D: It totally is. Because she's sitting there, completely nude, like covering herself in it in a very, like, renaissance painting-esq kind of way.. and Renaissance paintings come from the Renaissance, which comes from the French word “renaissance”, which means rebirth. I feel like that's an over analyzation.. but also like.. just looking at her music and her music videos.. like, it could be not. It very much looks like something.
J: The album is.. Complex.
D: It’s very complex. Ok, and speaking also of Renaissance shit, regarding Montaigne.. the name Montaigne comes from a French essayist and philosopher, Michel de Montaigne--who is known for--I don't really know much about his philosophy. I don't really know much about him either, but like his whole thing.. like he basically created the idea of writing an essay. Like that format of critical.. or of expression.. is like Montaigne's shit. And in all of his portraits, he is depicted wearing a rough like a Shakespeare-style rough. And for the two of you who have looked at the album art for this album..
A: She's wearing a rough!
D: She's literally wearing a rough. I just realized this before we started recording and I was like, “Oh, that's a thing that's like a reference to the person who she's naming herself after.”
A: Damn.
D: Yeah, I don't know. There's like all these little things about her, all these little things about this artist and this album where I’m like, “Oh,it's so cool!”
J: So much depth.
D: Nice little, like, salty, spicy little like cool thing.
J: Yeah. Oh yeah.
A: For sure.
D: Yeah. You guys have other thoughts about the album.. any of the songs?
[Pause]
D: Can we just talk about the song "I am a Clown" for a second? I just think it's a good song and I want to know what you guys think about it.
J: It is a good song. Let me listen to it again real quick.
D: What the fuck does that mean by the way? Because the lyric, “if my tongue is in my mouth, we're not meant to be”, is very good. And also that she's like, “you should have found, I am a clown.” And I'm like, “what the fuck?” I’m going to look at the lyrics real quick. I got to see what it is.
J: I don’t even.. I don’t even know.
A: I really like the drums in this one. It's kind of like it sounds like she's hitting a can or something.
D: Yeah.
J: I love that. I love the like.. It sounds like someone is drumming on, like, a timbale. I think this is the one.
D: She just.. the percussion in her music is really good. Because like, I feel like you could really easily, with like artpop, just be like, “oh yeah, it's fucking..”
J: High hat. Snare.
D: You know, drums like, or like you know, more like hip-hop style like percussion. But like the percussion in this is one of the more stand up.. I mean all of the instrumentation is quite interesting.. and her use of strings is really unique. But like her percussion is--and I don't think she's a percussionist either--so this is like a collaborative effort I would imagine.
J: I think it's just cool how much different stuff she's added to the instrumental mix.
D: Right!
J: And it's apparent in that song.
D: She's just a Renaissance woman, man. She's just adding in all this weird shit. In the podcast that I heard her interviewed in that turned me on to her, she said something like she wanted to, like, acknowledge like a frequent collaborator of hers. And she was like, “Yeah, he, like always supports me with all the weird shit that I want to do--and like, hears me out.” And I was like, “that's cool.” Like, I can see how that, like, idea of like just, oh, I had this weird fucking idea and it like made it to the actual studio and like onto the track too. The lyrics of “I am a Clown”.. the second verse starts with, “My cheeks are bright red. I am a bird. Hyena-ic laughter. You probably heard.” Hyena-ic laughter?
A: Yeah. What is that word?
D: Like a hyena.
A: Who uses that?
D: It's so GOOD! Who takes the word hyena, makes it into an adjective, and then is like, “Yeah. Hyena-ic laughter. You’ve probably heard my hyena-ic laughter.”
A: Of course.
J: Of course.
[Pause]
J: Or what about “bird”? Like where does that fit in?
D: Yeah.. why the fuck? Like, I get, “My cheeks are bright red.”, because the analogy is that “I'm a clown, I'm a clown.” The song is called “I am a Clown”, and she's like, “I am a bird.”
[Laughter]
D: Like, why? Why are you a bird, Montaigne?
J: I thought she was a clown.
D: I don't know. This song is like really weird and sarcastic too, because it has lyrics like, “Life is a joke. And I'm glad I'm around to be in the punchline and to hear the sound of some people laughing. I am a clown. So why do I want those who want me to frown?” Like, what the fuck? Like I get the thing she's making, like it feels like it's kind of the imposter syndrome thing of like, “I feel like a clown around like cool people.” I don't know. That's just like, seems like what it feels like off the top of the dome.
J: Yeah. Its very.. vulnerable.
D: I’m not over that, “if my tongue is in your mouth” lyric though.
[Pause]
D: Can I.. can I read more lyrics from this song?
A: Yes.
D: They’re really good. The first verse is just, “I'm always one hint of a meaningful look from boys with one hint of reading the same books. From dressing myself in some masquerade gown and wearing this frock and my frolicking town. That is Chimera and I am a clown.
J: Chimera?
D: A chimera is like, it's like a mythical beast thats like a lion that has a scorpion's tail and big wings and like shit like that. Also--and this is a side note and you might not know--is that an iambic pentameter?
A: It sounded like it.
D: For those that don't know iambic pentameter, it's a it's a term that Shakespeare uses for like the rhythm of the verse delivered is the rhythm of a heartbeat. There's, like, some variation in like syncopation in it. But like, it's similar.
J: That’s interesting.
D: It's not delivered that way, though, to be fair.. I just kind of write it in iambic pentameter. So it's not really.
J: It would be very interesting if so.
A: Yes.
D: I feel like I just need to do a podcast.. or I just like really just straight read all the lyrics to this album just out loud because they're fucking weird. They're just so strange and clever.
A: She talks about, like, pancakes at one point.
D: I know, like, what's going on?
J: It's so interesting and yet we all get like it's about troublesome love and stuff.
D: Right. Like, we get the idiom and we get the sarcasm.
J: She’s pretty genius.
D: She's just a brilliant writer. Well, I mean, to be fair, this woman is fucking twenty five. Like we're all in our early 20s. She was born in 1995. Like I was born in ‘98. She's three years older than me.
J: Yeah.
D: And is clearly very well. She has two studio albums, both of which have been relatively successful. She's had stuff peak on Australia's charts at like number four.
J: Wow.
D: Yeah. I can't say I can't say enough good things about Montaigne and I can't recommend this album enough to, like, basically anyone. I don't listen to art-pop very much.. Or like indie pop--I listen to a little bit of indie-pop--but like, this album is just cool.
J: It really is.
D: If you like cool lyrics and clever turns of phrase, and interesting instrumentation and composition.. And also Montaigne's sense of fashion is just like kick ass and weird. Like she constantly has like a curly-like pompadour and it fucking kicks ass dude.
[Pause]
D: Any other closing thoughts about Montaigne's “Complex”?
J: It was a great album. I was pleasantly surprised.
D: It’s a good album. Everyone should go listen to it. Cannot recommend it enough because of all the little moments she creates where you're like, “Oh, shit. God, that was good!”
[Pause]
D: So I want to close out the album conversation that we're having with, like, a good choice lyric from all of us. Who wants to go first?
J: I’ll go.
D: Okay.
J: I chose from "is this all I am good for?". It’s the chorus.. “and every day I wake up and measure the skin around my waist. Is this all I'm good for?” That just hit hard. That she thinks that and deals with that problem.. and probably so many other people deal with that problem.
D: The word in that lyric for me that really impresses its meaning is “every day.” every day I wake up and measure the skin around my waist. “Every day I have the thought about, is this all I'm good for?” Am I good enough? Right?
J: Yeah, it makes it like eternal. It adds so much.
D: Right! It is constant. It is not a one time thing. It is not a dark hour. It is a routine.
J: Yeah.
A: Right.
D: What about you, Ash?
A: So mine comes from "Please You" and it's verse two. It says, “Do you know what I've done to my mind for your handshake. It was the first one I got that just wants to feel a pancake. Though. we try really hard to feel no one else is broken, this is my damn song and I'll end it when I'm done.” I just like the control there and, like, the whole song is about pleasing others and pleasing ourselves, or herself. So yeah. And also I had to throw in the pancake line because it was cool.
D: Yeah.. it's the pancake line right?
A: It really was the pancake. I really like the start of that, the like, “do you know what I've done to my mind?” That part of it is really interesting because that song is about.. you know.. it seems to be at least like pleasing other people--being a people pleaser--which is interesting because then like two songs later, there's a song called “Pleasure”, which is assumingly about pleasure. Ok, mine is also from "is this all I am good for?" Which makes me think that I was correct in saying that it was my favorite song, because Johnny and I both like it. I'm going to read the whole fucking first verse because it's all very good. It starts with what I pointed out before.. “You have a soft spot for my soft spots. Confer some softness upon my hard mind. I wish to be present. My desire deters that. I have a thirst and maybe no one can quench it. I watched Nick Cave's long legs and their steps stoked my anxieties. I will never be a swanish, dark man with an ever darkening voice. I am bright and awful, garish and young and trying to be coarse and dexterous and something I'm not.” I'm fascinated by this album because..this is not necessarily true.. this is just my understanding. My understanding is that Montaigne is a CIS woman. And the second half of that verse is, “I watched Nick Cave's long legs.” I don't know who Nick Cave is, but I assume he's a man because his name is Nick, and then she says he's a man. And those steps stoked my anxieties and I'll never be this man with this voice and these like long legs. And I was like, that's interesting, because if I wrote that--me being kind of a thick boy--I feel like that's like a reasonable and understandable lyric coming from like a man talking about body image issues, being like, I watch this skinny, handsome guy. And I was like, “why am I not that?” But hearing that from Montaigne is really interesting because she's a woman talking about, like, “I watched this man and I was like, why am I not like that man?” is, I feel like,an inherently a queer thing of her to say. I feel like that's inherently speaking to a trans experience in a way that I was not expecting in that album and that I was like, “Wow, I--not as a trans person--really relate to that.” And that seems like something that I wouldn't like, you know, like it seems like, OK, yeah. You know, people who have body image issues. Right. Like I, you know, I've been there whatever. I wasn't expecting to relate to that degree, you know, like other than the broad topic of it. And also just the word choice of, “I am bright, an awful garish and young and trying to be coarse and dextrous and something I'm not.”
J: The word choice there. Yes. That got to me.
D: “Bright and awful. Garish and young.” is so good, especially if you know what Montaigne looks like and how she dresses herself in like bright-ass fucking clothes with bright-ass hair, like super loud prints and all that kind of shit. And I'm like, “yeah!”
J: That really reminds me of like, the Renaissance type feel too.
D: Yeah.. “bright and awful garishness.”
A: “Swanish.”
J: Yeah.
D: Swanish. Yeah. Swanish, dark man with an ever darkening voice is.. it's just good. It's just.. just don't even fucking listen to the album. Just go read all the lyrics.
[Laughter]
J: Yeah.
D: Because you can read them the way that we're reading them, like literally just reading them like poetry.. because they read like poetry.
J: They really do.
D: Anyway.. Well, thank you very much for tuning into another, and ever-changing episode of Out of Phase.
[Music fades in]
D: We’re trying to do them on a monthly basis--we'll see how they go--but we're probably going to stick with this album discussion format because it's pretty free form and makes it pretty easy on us. So I hope you enjoyed. Thank you, Ashley and Johnny, for coming on. It's really good to talk to you guys about this. I'm glad we all had all these interesting thoughts about this woman's work.
J: It was super fun to be on.
A: Yeah thanks for having me.
D: Awesome! Well, we will see you guys next time. Go listen to Complex, it's very good.
[Musi
[End]
N: I mean the intro can literally just be us being like “how do we start this”
D: How do we start this? I think this is the cold intro right now, I think we’ve stumbled into the cold intro.
(lo fi piano music)
B: Hello, I’m Beto and you’re listening to the PSPS Out of Phase Podcast
(all laughing)
D: Hello everybody and welcome to Out Of Phase, a podcast by Portland State Professional Sound. This is a new shot at something here, seeing as how we’re all kind of having some issues. Everything seems to be shut down in the music industry and we’re doing a podcast. We are a student led organization that provides sound and lighting for student events on the Portland State campus and we don’t usually do a podcast. So what we’ve decided to do is do a podcast every week. We’ve got some guest hosts, we’ve got some recurring segments, rotating segments, and we’re going to use our team as guest co-hosts. But our two recurring hosts will be myself, I’m Drew Haevner, I’m the tech director at Portland State Professional Sound. And my other host is my good buddy here.
B: It’s me, Beto Carrasco.
D: Beto Carrasco up in the house.
B: Chillin.
D: What do you do at PSPS, Beto?
B: I am currently training to be a lead technician at PSPS. So I will be leading some of our- what would I say- sound events?
D: And joining us this week is a co-host, Nayeli Naranjo-Robles. Nayeli, go ahead and introduce yourself.
N: I’m Nayeli. I have been the general manager for almost the past 2 years, but I am going to be stepping down. Jess is going to take over. But yeah, that’s me. I’ve been with PSPS I think the longest out of the three of us, almost 3 years.
D: Beto and I got hired in, what was it, Spring 2018?
N: Mhm
B: I think it’s been that long.
N: Yeah, and I have 2 terms on you. Fall 2017.
D: Yeah you got right in on the ground floor. Alright, let’s start in to this show. I think in the beginning here we’re going to kick it over to our guest host Nayeli and she’s going to talk about kind of what’s goin on in the industry with COVID 19. So what do you have to say about that, Nayeli?
N: Yeah, so as I said earlier, concerts are illegal right now.
D: They’re illegal, Robocop will get you. I hope it makes into the final cut, earlier when I mentioned Robocop so that now when I mention Robocop I don’t look like a total psychopath.
N: Um. Maybe. Haha so concerts were kind of one of the first things to go due to the whole virus thing. Which obviously leads to a lot of issues. Musicians aren’t able to tour. The people who work at venues aren’t able to work on all levels, whether it’s just the techs, or people who run the venue. Like, box office, all of that stuff, we’re all kind of out of jobs. And we were the first to go. And we’re probably going to be the last to come back.
D: Because we are basically the opposite of what an essential service is.
N: Well not just that, it’s also that a concert is a large gathering, that’s what we are trying to avoid- or what we have to avoid. And so there was even this article roaming around, well I’ve seen a couple of articles but the one that I looked at was the Consequence of Sound article that was saying how concerts might not be coming back until fall of 2021, so like in a year. And I mean that’s rough. That’s a long time. Like I said, a lot of people are out of jobs, I work for a couple venues in town and honestly I don't know what's going on, what’s going to happen. I’m a little afraid that some of the smaller places aren’t going to survive. There have been some venues that have started relief funds for their staff, like Wonder Ballroom, Hawthorne, the Aladdin Theater
D: In a different tangent, I’ve been getting emails from Broadway Rose, a theater in Portland like “we need money”.
N: Well it’s not just-
D: It’s not just concerts, it’s any performance venue right now is just non-existent. No income anymore.
N: And the smaller ones are going to get hit harder. Obviously, a Live Nation venue is like, chillin. They probably don’t have anything to worry about. Their staff is probably seeing some benefits, most likely. But a smaller place like Hawthorne or Aladdin or the Star, who knows? They are already not the same amount of income or revenue as a Live Nation Space like the MODA. So it’s going to be really rough on all of them. So I encourage anyone who’s listening, who has extra money, to look into relief funds that are out there for the venues.
D: I think one of the things that’s been really interesting for me, and I’m wondering what your experience is too, Beto. I’ve been seeing a lot of people on the live sound sub-reddit and those kind of subreddits that are geared toward our industry. Just, it’s been really sad and odd and weird for a community that is usually so gung-ho and either excited about work or complaining about something that happened, some band that was disrespectful. The community is usually really tightly knit online is kind of not because there’s nothing to talk about. Just like “I’m inside for the fourth week in a row, not doing anything”. Because so much of our industry relies on communication between people. It’s not usually one person who owns all of the equipment and the venue and runs everything, so you can’t really keep working. I know we’re disjointed right now because it’s hard for us to train when we don’t have access to our gear because we personally don’t own it, the school owns it, which means it’s under lockdown. It’s just been rough for everyone in a myriad of ways. What are your thoughts on all this, Beto?
B: It’s difficult to make a really strong claim, because the way I see it right now is I haven’t really been super involved in the sound industry yet. I had one independent gig and that was doing another podcast, actually.
D: It’s worth noting that all of us are very green in this industry, or newer in this industry than the grand scope of the people who have been working in it for 40-50 years.
B: To be fair, we do do some professional stuff. We do set up professional grade gear. And we are able to do sound for large events. But outside of that, I had asked for some assistance with my first independent gig anyway because of lack of equipment to do so. I wouldn’t really know where to begin. I feel super affected. I just assume that most live sound engineers are turning toward their studios, if they have some.
M: Well some studios might also be shut down. A former member of ours was/is interning in New York and he can’t anymore because nobody’s coming into the studio.
B: And that’s what it’s like as well at my internship at the studio, I don’t think they really shut down, they just don’t have a lot of people going unless you have an appointment. They’re trying to keep it minimum, but that means the interns are out.
D: That makes sense. It’s, like I said, it’s really impacting everyone and I don’t think it’s an obtuse point to make. It’s pretty clear how our community and our industry have been. Like, kind of just decimated. And it’s a bummer.
N: One thing that I was thinking about earlier is the fact that some of the more union people or people working MODA shows, some people are used to working 12-16 hours, really long shifts, and now they’re just at home. Imagine being so used to working full days multiple days in a row and now having to stay stuck at your home for a month. That is rough.
D: It’s super weird. I can even echo that, as someone who is not an IATSE person. I’ll frequently be working 12-15 hour gigs at least twice, if not 3 or 4 times a month and to just for the last almost two months, to not be doing any of that is so so strange and weird. I realized once we kind of started a lock down and we could kind of see what was coming, see that we all needed to hunker down. I realized that since we’re also on a campus and we wouldn’t work during the summer anyway because so few students are going to school and there’s so few events during the summer that we don’t usually operate hardly at all. I realized at a certain point I’m not going to work an event for at least 6 months. And that’s crazy. For us, when we’re thinking about it in terms, we’re not working all of this spring term, which is March, April, May, June.
N: Which is our busiest term also.
D: Yeah, we had like massive, massive events gearing up to happen. And we’re not going to work during the summer, so that’s a full 6 months in which I’m not going to be on a board, and that’s so foreign to me, given the amount that I usually am.
N: And fall term we’re probably not going to be coming in either.
D: This was my thought, a couple weeks ago. So at the time I was like “6 months” and now it’s looking like it’s going to be longer, which is great. I just feel such a strong relationship to working with equipment and gear and stuff like that. And the most that I’ve gotten to do is teach people how to use Zoom and set up my microphone for this show and buy myself a new monitor.
B: You don’t think we’re going to be back in session for fall?
N: From what I’ve been hearing around, from talking to other groups, SALP advisors and all that, it seems like we’re not going to be coming to campus fall term. Or maybe we are but events are still not going to be a big thing. Maybe some small get-togethers, you might be able to come in to campus to do some trainings, or Drew, maybe you could go in and Zoom a training.
D: For everyone listening, one of my responsibilities as the tech director is to train people, as part of our mission. I had heard from other people who kind of know what’s going on that it’s possible we might not be coming in until January 2021. And I heard this in like March, and, like, that’s almost a year… I don’t… it’ll be really interesting to see how this industry is impacted after being shut down for maybe just under a year. I know that we’re in a good place because of where our funding comes from, and our affiliation with the university. But I know that some independent places have to consider rent or property cost. It’ll just be rough. I wonder how much it will trend towards more independent house-type-stuff? Because that will be where people turn to, because those people don’t really have to consider property cost.
N: Earlier me and Beto were actually talking about this, how these big concerts are really going to be the last to come back, but we might start seeing local stuff happening, house show stuff, happening sooner. But really small stuff.
D: So I’m thinking that we’ve talked a lot about sad stuff for the last 20 minutes.
N: Well I have a couple other things, not necessarily sad.
D: (sarcastically) Are they good?
N: (sarcastically) Lemme do my shit! I’m a guest. Treat your guest with respect! Another thing, aside from concerts, we’re also seeing a lot of album postponements, people and artists that were going to release albums are postponing them, indefinitely I guess? And that largely has to do with the fact that concerts and tours can’t really happen. For musicians nowadays, album sales or streaming sales are not what’s getting them money, it’s concerts, it’s tours, it’s merch. So, when that’s taken out, it makes sense that people are postponing their albums so that they can release them at time they can tour closer to the release date, that they’re(the audience) still hyped for it. But I definitely think that’s a very interesting take on this, to postpone your album release.
D: If you're thinking about it from that lens of cross-promotion, like your album getting released right before this tour that you can use to promote it, I think that makes complete sense, you know? I’m wondering if you guys have joined in or gone to any of these virtual concerts. I know that people are doing streaming concerts.
N: Dude Minecraft! Minecraft concerts.
D: That’s the other thing that I really wanted to talk about, people doing concerts in Minecraft.
N: Yeah, 100 Gecs is going to have a Minecraft festival.
D: Oh my god, I love that Minecraft has become such a universal thing, like the internet. That you can just go “we’re doing a concert in Minecraft”. And to be fair, one of the first ones that I heard about was Anamanaguchi, like really on brand for them.
N: Right, and also with 100 Gecs, so it makes sense.
D: Right, so that’s on brand. If Bob Seger was like “I’m going to do a concert in Minecraft”, like ummmmm okayyyy.
N: But the Gecs did get Charli XCX for their festival.
D: Right and that makes sense, that one I believe. Have you guys done any of those? Gone to any of those streaming concerts, or one of the ones in Minecraft?
B: I didn’t go to the Minecraft one, but I did see this guy Idrus perform some unreleased songs, it was hosted by… I forgot the name of the company, it’s like a clothing company. It was kind of cool, they were hosting this guy and his girlfriend -or fiancé or whatever- they put some songs together and that was pretty cool. I don’t think a lot of people are doing LIVE live unless the Anamanaguchi one was super live because that one seemed to be recorded-
D: I don’t actually know what that would have looked like on a technical level, I imagine. Because a lot of people are doing live streamed concerts, from their personal space. I haven’t been to any of those because I’m (laugh) lazy.
N: You just have to pull it up on your phone, what do you mean?
D: I know, you don’t understand. I could be doing something else, like playing a video game. I could be playing Minecraft.
N: Okay.
D: I’m wondering if you guys know what those look like in terms of tech. They’re not just streaming from their phone, right?
B: No
D: No, they’ve gotta have like a set up.
B: They have a set up.
N: I think it depends. Some people probably have set ups, and some probably are not.
D: Right, I would imagine that some smaller artists are just doing whatever, but I got a notification that Saint Motel is doing something. I would imagine they have like a setup.
N: Maybe. I guess I’m not really sure because the stuff that I’ve been seeing- I haven’t actually watched anybody’s livestream, just because I don’t want to watch a livestream, it doesn’t super appeal to me. Especially as somebody who would go to concerts a lot, the whole thing to me is the presence. From what I’ve been seeing it doesn’t seem like top-notch quality or anything.
D: I wonder how that’s been affecting stuff. Cause I think it would be really cool if you could- Cause I’m sure you could figure out a setup where you’ve got a band and you still have an engineer, there are people who are more than capable of doing that kind of stuff. Like radio engineers or live event engineers (who work on) broadcasted TV. I’m wondering if people like that could find a place in streaming concerts in Twitch.
B: I think of KXP right off the bat, or there’s this local house here in Portland called the 1234 house. They do small sessions where they record local artists, post it up, which is kind of cool. They’ve had- the only band I know that’s been on there is Adebisi. I think they even do like a video.
D: It’s like people are taking the idea of the tiny desk concert and just doing that live.
N: Speaking of that, one of the things I wanted to mention, for the tiny desk concert just uploading artists that film themselves performing. Like I know Soccer Mommy filmed herself and that’s on YouTube. It’s just her laptop camera, I think and her guitar.
D: I love that, I’m gonna watch that after this.
N: Yeah she was pretty good live. She opened for Vampire Weekend. Which, there’s not going to be a video option for this, it’s all audio, but I’m wearing my Vampire Weekend crewneck, just so everyone knows.
D: Gonna rep Vampire Weekend in this audio medium.
N: Exactly. Yeah, lots of live stuff. Another thing, a happy thing, actually, the Moog Model D app on phones-
D: What is that?
N: So it’s an app. It’s Moog, but it’s Model D I guess. But it’s free!
D: Oh, Moog, like synthesizer, yeah?
B: Oh I thought you said Mood.
N: But yeah it’s free right now. Oh no sorry, Moog.
D: That’s cool that people are actually getting the chance to like make music.
N: Yeah! And there’s another one that I don’t remember the name of but I download the Moog one and I’ve been messing around with it.
B: A synthesizer, right?
D: Yeah, Moog is a synthesizer. I wonder how you could get that audio from that into a DAH. That’d be interesting. I’ve tried to do that for so long because I don’t want to buy a mini keyboard because I don’t really know if I’m into making music. But ah I can just download an app and plug it in! Nah nah. It doesn’t work that way, nothing’s that simple. Because it couldn’t be, right? (sarcastically) Cause MIDI protocol is so complex. I mean, it is, but…
N: Yeah. Anyways, I think that’s really cool, and not just those two apps, but I know that some Adobe programs are also free for a month.
D: Yeah, same with Ableton and… Beto what’s the other one that’s free right now?
B: Logic?
D: Is it Logic? Yeah okay. And that’s great, I think it’s really cool to allow music production to still be a part of people’s lives. And maybe that’s me projecting because it’s a big part of mine. But I think it’s cool. I know that there are a lot of people who- like my little brother for example is someone who makes music and I would imagine he’s got a lot of time to do that now. Maybe there’s some good things that come out of this in terms of music.
N: I was watching a Grimes interview and she was talking about her process for writing Art Angels and she said that she locked herself up in her room for months. She genuinely locked herself up. She would have her roommates slide food, or leave food at the door of her room. -
D: Sounds like something Morrisey would do.-
N: And that was her only contact.
B: To write music?
D: Yeah, to write music, just to be isolated. And now we’re all there.
N: Right, and I’m not saying that that’s the best thing to do. I just know that that’s something that Grimes did.
D: What you’re saying is that we can all write music as good as Grimes since we’re stuck inside, right?
N: I… no. But I’m sure that for some people, within a year or two, there’s going to be some amazing albums that will be coming out.
D: Oh yeah, I guarantee you that isolation will be the title of half of them.
B: I hope not.
N: There’s already an album that I like called isolation.
D: Of course.
B: I don’t really feel isolated.
D: Yeah I don’t either, I’m stuck at home with my partner. I don’t really because I have an XBox, so I can just do that all day.
B: Exactly.
D: I’m thinking we maybe transition into our next segment because we’ve been talking about this for awhile. Yeah?
N: Yes. But, to close this section, if you want to help out, look for those relief funds and donate. Also buy merch! Merch and album sales- as much as you can buy from your favorite artists- that is the best way to help them out at this time.
D: Support your local, small artists. Buy their shit. You’ve heard this a thousand times, wash your hand. That’s the most important part. Cool. We’re going to slide into our next segment, which is going to be a recurring segment, that I’m going to call The Nostalgia Corner. I’m not going to call it that. We’re going to call it something at some point but I have absolutely no thoughts. I know that for me, music is super nostalgic and music reminds me of things and I don’t think I’m unique or cool for feeling that way. I know that’s a lot of peoples’ experience. And because it’s a lot of peoples’ experience, I think it’s something that would be relatable and digestible in the format of a podcast. And I’m sure that a thousand other podcasts also do it.
N: Sorry to interject, the second episode- or the first episode of the 5th Ave podcast was all about comfort films
D: Oh that’s cool.
N: And that’s kind of a similar idea- comfort songs, comfort albums.
D: I think that a lot of people have that in one form of media or another. I know that for me, I’m not really a film person so that doesn't track for me, but I’m definitely a music person and I think that now is a good time for some reflection on things and a good time to just chill and think. So I wanted to do a segment on that. This week we’re going to talk about a song that all of us have listened to. I love this song. We’re going to talk about Jack and Diane by John Mellencamp. Jack and Diane is a song that was released I believe on an album- but I didn’t write the album name down- in 1982. And it’s worth noting that this doesn’t make me nostalgic for the 80s because I’m 21 years old and was born in 1998.
(all laughing)
D: But it does hold an important place in my heart and I think it’s a really- I don’t know if it’s interesting on its own in a ton of ways, but it is good. So John Mellencamp is like a heartland rock, Americana style artists, kind of in the vein of Tom Petty and Bruce Springsteen. If you’re not familiar with John Mellencamp, you’re probably familiar with Petty of Springsteen. He actually- this is the most 80s things of all time- when this album was released he was going by John Cougar, which is so good. I love that. It’s a look because it conjures the quasi-mullet and tight dad jeans, right? John Cougar is a choice.
N: It’s like Joe Exotic.
D: (laughing) It’s like Joe Exotic. He’s actually got some less redneck vibes. More like- I don't know. He’s got more Bruce Springsteen energy than Joe Exotic does. He eventually started going by John Mellencamp, which I think is his name, but I might be wrong. One of the things I think is cool to note is that his music is not really lyrically complex, it’s really straight up, on the surface. It’s not full of metaphors, it’s not poetry. It’s just kind of what it is. The lyrics are what they are. They mean exactly what they say. So here is a clip of Jack and Diane by John Mellencamp.
(15 second clip plays, lyrics:
“Life goes on, long after the thrill of living is gone
Now walk on”)
D: I’m interested in listening to what you two have to say about what you thought about the song, like as a piece of music, aside from whatever Nostalgia thing I have associated to it.
N: So I listened to it and I was like “Oh yeah, I’ve heard this like once before.”
D: Probably because I’ve played it. Like, let’s be real here.
N: I don’t know, but I listened to it and this sounds kind of familiar but I don’t think I’ve ever listened to it all the way through. So I did. And I don’t know, man. It doesn’t really appeal to me. I didn't grow up listening to that kind of music or anything.
D: (sarcastically) You’re saying that John Mellencamp doesn’t appeal to you, a Latina woman who grew up in Mexican culture and didn’t listen to John Mellencamp? That’s shocking.
(all laughing)
N: You know, I remember one day I realized, or something happened, I was talking to my mom and I found out that she likes the Beatles. And I was like “wait a minute. You listen to the Beatles? You’ve never mentioned that, you’ve never played them. All you’ve ever played is cumbia, what are you talking about?” But the point is-
D: The Beatles are a universal rock band.
N: I didn’t grow up listening to this kind of music.
D: So what did you think about it?
N: She knows Yesterday, just the one song.
D: I mean yeah, that’s the good one. Just kidding, Norwegian Wood. What did you think about it, Nayeli? I’m interested to see what a fresh face thinks.
N: Like I said, it just didn’t really appeal to me. Not necessarily my cup of tea. I wouldn’t listen to it again. I know that there’s some songs that I haven’t listened to- or that are icons or from really popular musicians from the 80s or whatever that I had never listened to. But then I listen to them and like “Oh, I get it.” or “Oh, I see how this can greatly affect people and why it means a lot to people.” This song I didn’t really get that. I was just like, “Oh cool, a song”. No offense, Drew. There was just nothing about it-
D: That’s kind of what I expected. That’s kind of what my thought was when I was thinking about what you would feel about this. I know it isn’t really your thing. Beto what’d you think about it? Beto I know that you probably have more thoughts about production stuff.
D: I thought it was a good pop song. I like the song, I thought it was a chill song. I really liked the- I think when we talk about nostalgia or somethin, I think there's a strong element about youth. And I think the song is themed around youth.
D: Exactly, yeah.
B: I function with that, I vibe with those ideas. I really liked the line that’s like “hold on to 16” or something.
D: Yeah I think it’s a cool song, in terms of like it is a song and not my emotional connection to it. I really like this style of writing- this very straight, forward… There’s a poet whose name escapes me who writes like this and it’s the most accessible poetry I’ve ever heard. John Mellencamp really reminds me of that because it’s just plain and simple. This is a song about two 16 year olds in love in the Midwest. That’s what it is. That’s the song. And it’s really endemic of a lot of Mellencamp’s music. A lot of his other songs are like this, going to tell a straight up story. It does have importance and it has meaning and significance in a lot of ways but it isn’t done through metaphor or simile. It’s just like the words in the song are the words that they mean. The things that really stick with me on a production side is- it does this thing where if juxtaposes these big power chords of several instruments with that “bow duh duh duh, bow duh duh” the really tiny little- and I think that’s really cool. And I literally wrote in my notes, the power chords in the instrumental sections beat ass. It’s kind of huge 80s power chords. And that’s so specifically shown in the bridge, which is this big breakdown, big drum machine fill into- It’s very like the one who wrote the music for Tarzan, I Can Feel It Comin’ In the Air Tonight.
N: Phil Collins?
D: Phil Collins. Yeah. That bridge is very Phil Collins-y to me, which is kind of weird, especially in a heartland rock song. There’s something in that bridge and I really really wanted you to hear it. So here is the end of the chorus into the bridge of Jack and Diane.
(rock instrumental music playing, about 5 seconds
Lyrics: “oh let’s rock, let it roll”)
D: That bridge is wild. I love the bridge. Okay here’s what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to talk about why I’m actually nostalgic for it. This song- Beto I think you hit the nail on the head, it is nostalgic in and of itself because it’s this coming of age, very relatable, teenagers in love kind of thing. That has nothing to do with why this song is nostalgic to me. It has everything to do with my dad. In elementary school I played baseball as a kid and my dad was always my coach because he loved baseball. He would always play music on our way to games or practices or whatever. John Mellencamp specifically was one of these artists that he would play over and over and he always called it baseball music. Other baseball music was Tom Petty, I don’t think we listened to a lot of Bruce Springsteen but that would-
B: Dad rock. -
D: Yeah it’s a lot of heartland dad rock, but there’s some other stuff in there. The Clash I think was sometimes baseball music. But what stuck in my head was John Mellencamp and Tom Petty. And I thought that maybe John Mellencamp would be more interesting to talk about, Tom Petty is great but he gets talked about a lot. Rest in peace, though I love Tom Petty. So Tom Petty, John Mellencamp and Jack and Diane and all of John Mellencamp’s big hits are baseball music in my head. To me it’s nostalgic because a lot of my love for music comes from my relationship with my dad and I have this vivid memory of his CD collection that felt like it was thousands of CDs. Just drawers and drawers- this was when physical media mattered- there were just drawers and drawers of CDs of bands that I’d never heard of. And that’s where I discovered that I loved, like, grunge music, which is something I’ll probably talk about later, because that’s also really important to my relationship with my dad and to music broadly speaking. A lot of that music that I listen to now, a majority of it, I love because I either discovered it directly through my dad and his music collection or his opinions on music, or indirectly. Like one of my favorite bands is the Pixies and I never would have come to the Pixies if my dad didn’t love Pearl Jam or Nirvana. One of the things that I really hold on to, is that my dad has- or at least he did in the early 2000s and I imagine he feels the same now- that the best songs are the ones that tell stories. That’s this song to a tee. A lot of classic rock songs are really built around storytelling which is still super prevalent in music but I don’t know how much it is in comparison to the 80s and 90s. And that idea of storytelling and of narrative is something that I think is really become pervasive in my life. I for a long time was an actor in High School and did a lot of musical theater and stuff like that and storytelling was really important to me then and I still see it really important to my job and myself now, in helping other artists create their narrative. Because that’s part of what our job is as technicians I think. And I think that that idea of storytelling will always stick with me and it’s because of baseball music. That’s my 2 cents on John Mellencamp’s Jack and Diane.
B: I hear that.
N: I miss musicals. I watched Sweeny Todd last week or something, it as my first time watching it-
D: It’s your first time watching it? That’s fantastic-
N: And I was like goddamn do I want to see a musical and now it’s too freakin late because I won’t be able to see one for like another year.
D: This is a good segway into talking about what you guys have been listening to.
B: I have been listening to Tame Impala and I’ve been listening to The Slow Rush because I watched this production video on how to get Kevin Parker vocals. And I was watching this guy do it and he recreated Borderline and it hit and I was like dang, Borderline’s actually kind of a cool song. So yeah, I listen to The Slow Rush during work, plugged it into the AUX system, cranked it up. No one’s really in there, just for us. So we play it loud. And I’ve also been listening to Been Staples. I didn’t- I don’t know, it didn’t hit.
D: I kinda listen to a bunch of singles and stuff that popped up in my new music thing on Spotify today and I- have you guys listened to the new Fiona Apple?
B: No, I don’t even know who that is.
D: You don’t know who that- Oh, you should listen to Fiona Apple. She’s actually a really good song writer.
N: Oh yes, I have actually.
D: You have Nayeli? I listened to the first track because I didn’t have time to listen to the whole album. I don’t know how emblematic the first track is of the album as a whole, but that woman reminds me so much of Regina Spektor. And I love Regina Spektor. That’s why I think I’m going to like this album. What’d you think about it, Nayeli?
N: Yeah, I wasn’t really planning on listening to it, because I have never really listened to Fiona Apple, like I’ve seen her name thrown around a lot but I never have. The only reason I decided to listen to it was because somebody mentioned that Fiona Apple is a mix of Joanna Newsome and Regina Spektor and I love Joanna Newsome, I was listening to her this morning. So I was like “damn, I have to now”. And I really enjoyed it. Like I said, I’ve never really listened to her stuff before and in general I don’t listen to that kind of music. Like even Joanna is even a bit of an outsider in the things that I usually listen to. But the writing and storytelling, that really got to me. As I’ve mentioned to you before, Drew, I don’t really pay attention to lyrics. Like, I don’t. But recently I’ve been trying to a little more. And so just the whole- her writing is really good. I don’t know how often I’ll keep going back to it, just because it isn’t super up my alley, but I did enjoy it.
D: I listened to a podcast that I absolutely adore, and one of the hosts love Fiona Apple and she was talking about her a couple weeks ago and I was like, “Oh, she has a new album, I have to listen to that. I haven’t gotten through it, like I said, but I really want to. I have a recommendation for y’all and everyone who’s listening to this. There's this Philippino funk band called Four of Spades that just put out a new single and they haven’t put out a new single in like two years. And they’re so good. I don’t speak… What is the-what language do they speak in the Philippines? Max, cut this out so I don’t look like a dipshit.
Max the Editor: It’s Tagalog.
D: They are just like so fresh, they’re just really weirdly funky. I don’t listen to funk but it’s this like walkin’ down the sidewalk in a bomb ass outfit on a hot day kind of funk. It’s the kind of funk that makes me want to buy bell bottoms and a polyester suit. It’s fantastic. It’s super weird and something that normally wouldn't come on my radar, I picked them up off reddit a couple years ago. They’re been kind of absent the last couple years and I saw that they have a new single popped up this year, and I was like “Oh god yes please, Four of Spades, I love it”.
N: I will look into it. Personally, I am still just listening to the new Strokes album.
D: Oh my god.
B: Lol
D: Can you explain why we both reacted the way we just did? Just for the audience?
N: Did Beto even react?
D: He just said the word “lol” out loud. He said an anagram.
N: For those of you who don’t know, the Strokes are my favorite band. The Strokes are my favorite band. I’m not going to say I’m the number one fan, but I do stan.
D: Yeah but you’re pretty close.
N: Let me explain. Yeah, right I flew to Chicago for one day to see them perform at Lollapalooza this summer, I saw them in Seattle, I’ve seen The Voids when they came to Wonder, I saw Albert when he came to Wonder. I love them. They haven’t come out with anything since 2013. Actually that’s a lie, they came out with a mini EP that was bomb, you should listen to it. But they haven’t come out with a full length in like 7 years and I really enjoy it. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about it that I’m not going to go into right now because that’s a lot. But I definitely recommend people listen to it.
D: (sarcastically) Yeah that’s a different show.
N: Especially if you’re into synths or are interested in 80s inspired stuff because this album is definitely inspired by the 80s. The main single Bad Decisions samples Dancing with Myself by Billy Idol, I think. Yeah. It’s great, I love it, it’s mostly what I’ve been listening to. Other than that, I‘ve honestly been on kind of a music rut. Every couple months I just get into this rut where I’m like “what the fuck should I listen to? I don’t know.” I’ll pull up Spotify and just don’t know what to listen to.
D: I also do, I get there too.
N: It’s just kind of like “I don’t knoww!” so I end up just going back to something that I’ve listened to so many times. Something super familiar. And that’s usually The Strokes or Arctic Monkeys.
D: It’s usually The Strokes.
N: It’s usually The Strokes.
D: Can I tell a story about your affinity with The Strokes real quick?
N: Sure.
D: So, in December of last year, when Spotify wrapped? Wrapped. I almost said rewind, that’s YouTube. Spotify Wrapped came out and it shows you what are your top albums for this year. Nayeli was showing me hers, we were looking at it together and it was her first time seeing it, and it pulled it up and it was just 8 Strokes albums. It was literally only albums by the Strokes and no one else. So so funny.
N: I think that’s what I was listening to, not my top. Although they are my top artists of the decade. And I think I listened to them for like a crazy amount of hours last year. Like in the thousands. I don’t know.
D: I don’t understand that.
N: If anyone wants to talk to me about The Strokes, hit me up. I will.
D: (sarcastically) Here’s Nayeli’s phone number.
N: No, I’m not going to do that. (sarcastically) But reach out to the PSPS email. Haha no.
D: I would recommend not doing that.
N: Yeah I would recommend not doing that. You can just- I have such a unique name, you can find me.
D: It’s pretty easy.
N: So because I’ve been on a music rut and mostly have just been on YouTube watching videos, or having videos play in the background, instead of music. That’s what I’ve been doing.
D: Gotcha. Beto what else you been listening to?
B: I’ve been really into Diiv lately. What’s new.
D: Oh, yes.
B: So I’ve been really into Diiv. Mainly that album Is The Is Are. Weird.
D: That’s a name.
B: Yeah and their latest one, Deceiver. Back and forth between those two.
D: They’re pretty cool. They’ve got that really chill kinda beachy-
B: That’s just their first album, though.
D: Oh, is it really?
B: Yeah, this one, the latest one takes a lot of influence from The Sonic Youth, and maybe some Smashing Pumpkins.
D: Oh that’s beautiful. I just want more of Billy Corgan’s voice.
B: Yeah. So it’s different.
D: Have you guys heard Glass Animals’ cover of Heartshaped Box by Nirvana? It is weird. It’s cool cause Glass Animals has such a specific sound and it totally sounds like a Glass Animals song, it doesn’t sound like a Nirvana song. But it’s an iconic Nirvana Song, it’s great. It’s a cool song. There’s a really iconic dirty, scuzzy bassline in Heartshaped Box, and in this Glass Animals cover they play in on a double bass and it sounds weird to hear a grunge baseline so cleanly played. It fits right in with their aesthetic but it’s another one of those things that I totally recommend going to check out. Hoo- It’s a cool cover. I think they did another one, I don’t remember what it is. I could be mistaken but I think they’re doing covers on this EP called quarantine covers?
N: Mhm.
D: I think Dave Bailey is working on covers from quarantine and that’s really cool.
N: They’re also doing movie nights I think.
D: Are they really? That's really up their alley, they’re cool dudes it seems like.
(lo fi piano music fades over)
D: And that concludes our first episode of Out of Phase, presented by Portland State Professional Sound. Thank you Nayeli for coming on as a guest host. It’s been great to have you. I’m Drew Haevner
B: And I’m Beto Carrasco.
D: That’s much more beautiful than my German bastard name. Thanks for listening! Stay safe and have a good week.
Out of Phase Episode 2 : Oops, All Therapy
Out of Phase Episode 2 : Oops, All Therapy
-Intro-
Beto - Alright well thanks for listening to the Out of Phase podcast I was Beto Carrasco, I guess I
still am.
-Everyone Laughs
Drew - *While laughing* We gotta do that again.
Beto - It was funny
-Chill beat fades in
Drew - “ I was Beto Carrasco” *laughs*. This can still be the outro, this is fine.
Beto - Okay I’ll make sure not to hesitate, I was committed, I was committed.
Drew - Alright, make sure you thank John
Beto - Okay, yeah, okay.
-Start of Episode 2-
Drew -Hey everybody welcome to out of phase presented by Portland State Professional Sound,
I’m Drew Havner. . .
Beto - And I’m Beto Carrasco
Drew - And this week our guest host is John Hongel, John say hi.
John - Hi.
Drew - There’s the big boy John. John tell us a little about what you do at PSPS
Beto - My man John
John - I lift heavy things and -
Drew - Yeah that’s the primary thing right.
John - wrap up cables and learn.
Drew - “laughs” That’s a really long job title. John’s one of our people, he’s also training to be a
lead technician. John how long have you been with us?
John - Half a year, hopefully.
Drew - Yeah, something like that like six months. John is really quickly smashing through the
ranks, getting good at stuff and we’re really excited to have you on the show today John.
Beto - Yeah, I know John, I know John. I have had like every class with John for the past year or
two probably. We’re in the same program at PSU; we are S.A.M.P majors (Sonic Arts and Music
Production). John is a good guy
Drew - So John, we’re gonna pick your brain about some music stuff and you’re gonna talk to us
a little later in the show about video game music and sound design, which should be interesting.
But, first we’re gonna take a trip back to my favorite; I guess it’s the nostalgia nook now
-“laughs” - the nostalgia corner. I don’t know how to name it without it sounding corny which is
upsetting. But, this week I asked you guys to listen to originally one song, and then I asked you
to listen to another because I couldn’t decide between the two. We’re gonna talk about both
Fidelity and Eet by Regina Spektor.
John - Woo!
Drew - That’s the first time I have heard someone actively cheer for Regina Spektor, given that
her music is so laid back. Regina Spektor is a russian born American Pianist, songwriter and
musician. She was born in the U.S.S.R. in Moscow and she moved to the Broncs when she was
nine in 1989. She really started to become popular in the early 2000’s in New York in what’s
called the anti folk scene which is an interesting genre of music. She played piano from a really
young age and she plays it incredibly proficiently now. It’s the focal point of most of her music.
In a way it’s kind of like Elton John, like how that’s sometimes really piano oriented but it is still
very “popy”. You have probably heard some of her music before even if you don’t really know
who she is just because she first of all did a cover of While my Guitar Gently Weeps, the George
Harrison song or Beatles song written by George Harrison, my bad. At the end of Kubo and the
two Strings by Laika Film that came out a few years ago, it’s a really good song. But more
notably she is the one who wrote the opening theme for Orange is the new Black, the Netflix
show that you’ve probably heard over and over as I have. Now every time I hear it I’m like: Well
it is Regina Spektor so I love it however, that’s a song. So this week I asked you guys originally
to listen to Fidelity which I think is a really quintessential Regina Spektor song. I realized that I
couldn’t choose between that and Eet which is one of her other songs which is one of my favorite
songs - I really like both of them but Eet really depicts what I think is really cool about her. Now
here is some of Regina Spektor’s song Fidelity.
-An excerpt from the song Fidelity plays. . .
Drew - Fantastic, so what did y'all think about that song?
Beto - In the context of nostalgic vibes, I have a hard time hearing that with nostalgia. I guess I
didn’t dislike the song a lot. It sounded dated and old.
Drew - How old do you think this song is?
Beto - I know it was made in 2008.
Drew - What do you mean by old in that sense?
Beto - I just don’t think it aged well in terms of pop.
Drew - Interesting and fair.
Beto - This is an opinion though - It sounds like Making my way downtown
Drew - Oh no, Don’t do my favorite person Regina Spektor dirty like that.
*Beto sings a melody from Making my way downtown*
John - You don’t think that (Making my way downtown) aged well?
Drew - That aged really well, John’s got a good point.
Beto - Well I’m just saying that’s what it sounds like.
John - I’ve literally seen that mixed into DJ sets.
Beto - Ironically.
Drew - That one is actually really nostalgic for a lot of people to be fair.
Beto - It is.
John - Irony ages well.
Beto - Sure whatever whatever.
Drew - Beto, what’d you think about the production quality? As a song maybe not really
attached to the idea of nostalgia.
Beto - As a song it sounds fine, it sounds commercially recorded. I don’t have a very strong
opinion about it. It wasn’t my favorite I would say.
Drew - What about you John?
John - Both of those songs (Fidelity and Eet) are very nostalgic for me. They were popular
around the time that I was graduating High School. Junior Senior year and were often listened to
by my girlfriend at the time who was my first. So I have a lot of memories of chillin’ out hearing
Regina Spektor.
Drew - One of the things that really stands out to me in both songs is the way that she as a
vocalist deconstructs words and uses syllabes. There’s a really good example of that right before
the bridge in Fidelity although it might be the bridge. So here is more of Fidelity by Regina
Spektor.
-The bridge section of Fidelity plays. . .
Drew - I think that’s the thing that really catches me about her music. On a music level not tied
to any nostalgic feelings is the way she manipulates things with her voice. She is a very small,
very quiet woman and she has this super powerful voice which I’ve always found fascinating.
She does so many things with dynamics and breaking down words into weird syllables - that
really interests me. And that I think is even more well illustrated in Eet which personally I really
like as a song. Eet is a lot more inline with her style because it’s more piano oriented. She does
that- stretching the words into syllables with the chorus of the thing. In the pre chorus and chorus
of the song Eet she breaks down a rhyming syllable into what is kind of the chorus of just
repeating the syllable Eet. She does it this weird kind of strange way. Here is that clip from Eet
by Regina Spektor
-An Excerpt from Eet plays. . .
Drew - What’d you guys think about Eet?
Beto - I enjoyed that one right off the bat.
Drew - Interesting. What made you enjoy that one but not Fidelity so much?
Beto - It’s like I said, It sounded like Making my way downtown.
Drew - *laughs* I still don’t understand that comparison - it’s so funny to me.
Beto - It’s sounds like from the same time.
Drew - It totally is. I get what you’re saying.
Beto - Yeah, and I just don’t like to listen to that stuff. It’s just like too sweet.
Drew - So what about Eet? What are thoughts broadly speaking?
Beto - Yeah, in Eet I like the piano with harder - when I say harder it’s not so hard - with the
more loose rock elements added to it. I thought it made it more enjoyable and it got my attention
a lot better.
Drew - It’s definitely less pop inspired. I think it cuts to the core of what her music is.
Beto - In that case then yeah I would gladly listen to more stuff like that.
Drew - What about you John?
John - Oh I like it. I feel like they both are filed into the same category in my brain. Just chill
piano and creative things with words.
Drew - Creative things with words might be the episode title. Yeah for me I’m not someone who
pays particular attention to lyrics as I’m listening to music. I do find them really important but I
don’t sit down and listen to a song and really pay attention to the lyrics over anything else. I feel
like I try to take it in more as a cohesive piece of music.
John - Well do you not think about what that song is about?
Drew - What do I think Eet is about? I don’t know dude. I think I know what fidelity is about but
I don’t know what Eet is about. It’s just about her rhyming things with the word Eet.
John - Well I think it’s about eating disorders actually.
Drew - Really?
John - Yeah
Drew - I believe you. I don’t have any thoughts on what Eet is about. I just know that I like it as
a piece of music.
John - I think some of the early lyrics are something about forgetting the words to your favorite
song. Talking about depression and the things associated with an eating disorder that ruined the
enjoyment of food and life
Drew - Yeah, it’s got a lot of hints to depression and things like that. Which is interesting
because it’s kind of a “popy” happy song.
John - I wouldn’t call it that.
Beto - It’s a lot more real.
Drew - Yeah, that’s fair. I think it’s popy compared to a lot of her other stuff. For example
there’s a song called Ghost of Corporate future which I think is my favorite song by her that is
basically her doing poetry over a piano. It’s super bizzare and full of big slant rhymes and stuff.
It’s a really cool song.
John - it’s definitely catchy.
Drew - Yeah that’s a better word for it. It is not “popy” it’s more catchy. Why this is nostalgic
for me specifically: These songs for me serve as a proxy for her discography broadly. It’s hard
for me to pick out a single for Regina Spektor and be like this is the one that makes me nostalgic
because her discography makes me nostalgic. But she was introduced to me by a friend who I
don’t talk to much anymore. She introduced me to her probably in early 2017. We went to go see
Regina Spektor when her tour came through Portland I think in 2017. Before that we listened to
the music a lot just because she was coming to town and we were going to see her concert. But I
never really got into it. I kinda feel like I had some similar reactions. Like “that’s not really for
me” - it does really have that energy like you’re talking about Beto, like that early 2000’s pop
energy which isn’t really my thing either. And after I went and saw that concert she really didn’t
come up on my radar, every now and then I’d hear a song of hers, I’d be like oh it’s Regina
Spektor she’s pretty good she’s just not really my thing. And then for some reason in the winter
of 2018 which was my first winter term in college her music started to resonate with me. I think
it’s because her music is more quintessentially college music. It hits at themes that college kids
are more into. And I think I probably more broadly like the music because I was being less picky
about music and being like I only listen to this type of music. But even still she really doesn’t fit
into the broad genre of music that I listen to. So her music started to resonate with me more and I
started to recognize that she had this like very strong control over what was going on in the
music. Like she has this incredible predilection for song writing, her song writing is really cool
and she writes stuff that is really interesting. Even if I don’t understand it I will hear something
and be like the way you wrote that interests me even if I don’t fully understand it. And even
more extremely, the way she uses her voice, how she goes from this like very soft melodic to this
incredibly high powerful sound and then like does that thing that she does that she’s known for.
Like deconstructing a word into its parts and manipulating it. It’s so strange - and I think that’s
what caught me when I finally recognized what’s cool about it - is that it’s unique and strange
and she’s also, in concert, she’s just like weird. She’s this tiny little russian woman, I mean she’s
not obviously russion. But she’s very small and very quiet. She reminds me of a lot of people
that go to Portland State - that like artistic quiet person. She’d be like “alright thanks for coming
to my concert. I’m gonna play Eet'' and then she sits down at the piano and just bangs out this
really really really intense song. I always thought that was cool. It’s what keeps me coming back
to Regina Spektor. I like it. She’s cool.
Beto - yeah, it sounds like you have a reason why that’s important to you because you have a lot
of experience with her.
Drew - I mean I wouldn’t even say a lot, really right, like I couldn’t.
Beto - Well I think a performance is a lot.
Drew - That’s true.
Beto - I think seeing something like that is memorable and you seem to talk about it fondly.
Drew - I mean it definitely was, I think it’s just one of those things that I come back to every
couple of months. Like it just has hooked me for some reason and it’s not like I’d put her on the
top of my list of my favorite artists - I wouldn’t put that genre as one that I’m interested in. Just
something about her and the way she does her shit; it. . . I don’t know, it just resonates with me
in a way that I think is fascinating. Which I think is apparent by me being like “she’s
fascinating!” and you guys being like “yeah she’s pretty good, I liked it. That’s it.” *laughs* I’m
just like “oh but her voice and the way she does stuff and the deconstruction of stuff.”
John - I think she’s great.
Drew - Yeah. Regina Spektor is great. Go listen to Ghost of corporate future, that’s my
recommendation.
John - I just mostly associate it with my ex-girlfriend.
Drew - Right, yeah. That can be awkward.
Beto - Daaang. *chuckles*.
-Transition music plays (the chill beat)-
Drew - So next John is gonna host his section of the show. And John what are we gonna be
talking about today?
John - So at the end of last term I did a good amount of research about video game audio from
the perspective of people looking into it as a field to work in. So I found out a lot about the
several processes that a video game company will go through to put not only the music but the
sound effects and everything audio wise that goes into a game and the careers that are associated
with that. And I just wanted to talk about that process and also just things we like about video
game music. Maybe like favorite scores, favorite games from an audio perspective, stuff like
that.
Drew - So what’d you get from all that research. What stood out to you?
John - Well it seems like it’s pretty segregated in terms of the music makers and then the
implementers of the sound and the sound effects people. Those people work a lot more in tandem
with the game developers. They’re working in these huge audio softwares like WY’s is one of
them. And they have to work with the level designers for example to make sure the reverb in a
hallway seems real and the monsters sound’s and all that.
Drew - I didn’t even think about that.
John - So I think that’s a much more integrated thing than hiring some guy to write a theme that
is then sent to an orchestrator that’s then recorded by an orchestra and then implemented by the
guy who does the sound effects.
Drew - I watched this video a couple weeks ago about this guy who wrote the score for a game
called Journey. Which is a very like emotion based indie game that is very heavy in the music.
And he was talking about (it’s a polygon video by the way, I should give them credit for this)
how his process was weird because would like write something and then send it to the level
designers and then they would change the level to fit it and then he would get the level prototype
back and he would rewrite the song and then send that back to the level designers until they
really like nailed down on it. His process was really cool because it has these really strong
concept statements of like okay the cello represents the player and the flute represents other
players and this represents that. And I’m not a musician and I’m not a composer. I’d never
thought about music like that, I’ve also never played Journey so I’m not sure how much that
really holds in the gameplay.
John - Yeah, that’s actually a great example. Journey is considered one of the hallmark video
game soundtracks in terms of exploring new techniques in terms of evolving the music. So I
actually watched something several years ago which was an interview with performers who do
the recordings like the cello players and stuff like that.
Drew - Oh she’s insane. She’s sooo good. I’m gonna look her up.
John - Yeah, the music - that’s one of the coolest things about it to me atleast from an artistic
standpoint. Unlike a film or anything which is just timewise like zero to x on a scale and then
you put in the music. In a video game the person who’s experiencing the music will spend as
much time as they want in any zone so all of the change in the music as you progress through the
game isn't just a strict time base.
Drew - Right it’s like dynamic, it evolves.
John - Yeah it’s dynamic, it evolves based on the choices you make.
Drew - That cellist by the way is Tina Guo. She is fantastic.
John - Mhm.
Drew - And to speak to the point John I think that the dynamic element of a video game as
opposed to a movie is what really makes that so interesting and so fascinating. John sent us a
video to prep for this and it was about the Outer Worlds. And talking about every single little
interaction that player has and how that has a sound associated with it and how that can add up to
hundreds of samples playing at once in addition to music. Speaking of the Outer Worlds theme,
that theme is amazing.
-Outer Worlds theme plays in-
Beto - One thing that always gets me is that you forget you’re playing an RPG. How many voice
actors there are.
Drew - Oh yeah.
Beto - I thought that part was really interesting.
Drew - Voice actors are very talented. It was interesting to watch that video about Outer Worlds
because I played Outer Worlds, I probably played 30 or 40 hours of it. Then I just stopped
playing it because I don’t really like that kind of game. It’s still a great game, it’s just the game
that I love. And as I was watching this video and the theme started playing and the really big
sweeping orchestra came in under the woodwind section - I was like oh wow I remember all of
this I could not of before told you what this theme sounded like but now that I’m hearing it
ofcourse. . ofcourse that’s what it sounds like it’s iconic and it’s really beautiful. Oh and the
Spacer’s choice jingle. *one big laugh* Beto you’ve played this game right?
-Spacer’s choice jingle plays-
Beto - Yeah.
Drew - You’ve heard the *sings “it’s spacer’s choice in time with music. Music ends*
Beto - Yeah.
Drew - Like that to me, I was like oh jesus I’ve heard this so many times. I never want to hear it
again but it is also very good.
Beto - I think that watching that process, and maybe I can get your opinion from you guys too,
made me think about how complex video game production has gotten especially in terms of
music.
Drew - Oh yeah.
Beto - A lot of my fond memories with soundtracks, I guess moving into that are not from
modern games but from older games.
Drew - Like old chip tune based games? Or like red book audio?
Beto - Yeah, well I spent a lot of time in arcades and playing Nintendo and super Nintendo. So I
right off the bat the songs that I can clearly hear in my head is the Contra theme song.
Drew - Oh yeah.
Beto - Have you guys ever played Contra? Like Super Mario Bros.?
Drew - Well yeah and everyone knows that Super Mario theme.
-Super Mario Bros. Main theme plays -
Drew - If you wanna talk about iconic video game music it’s Super Mario Bros.
John - Yeah
Beto - Yeah well from Super Mario Bros. three - it’s super specific.
Drew - Is that the one where everything is in a play? Yeah cause two is where everything’s a
dream.
Beto - Yeah it’s like *Beto starts singing melody.
Drew - Yeah mhm. *laughs*
Beto - *laughs* you know like coming from this one track playing in the background to what we
were just talking about. Well in the video like orchestrating, sending your tune to an orchestrator
and that’s gonna be recorded. It's all cinematic.
Drew - Or having like a world class cellist play the theme to your indie game.
Beto - Exactly.
John - Right. There still are a lot of games, you know like indie games and stuff where someone
is just doing some 8-bit stuff in the background. Like that’s still out there it’s just that there’s
also now this hollywood style like process for making triple A title music.
Drew - Yeah, I’m curious because I wrote some notes down on this, I wonder how much that has
to do with Halo.
*Halo theme begins to play*
Drew - Because Halo has this massive cinematic like John Williams-y and Star Wars-y score.
John - I’ve always said Halo’s the Star Wars of video game music.
Drew - I mean it is. When I say Halo score, y’all both hear the soundtrack like the theme the like
*sings snipet* Like that *laughs*
John - Mhm. Yeah.
-Everyone laughs-
Drew - I don’t remember the notes but you know what I mean. They still do it even though
Bungee doesn’t work on these games anymore, like if you boot up Halo V: Guardians it has that
score. It’s not the same score, but it’s still that sci-fi epic score.
John - Or some other things like the Oblivion, skyrim theme that are still the same.
Drew - It’s interesting how music can take Halo: Combat Evolved, a game that is good and
objectively a little bit easy because you kinda just run through the critical path of the game and
shoot the enemies. If you compare it to something else like another Bungee thing like Destiny 2
which is more of an open world. Halo: Combat Evolved is just like: run through the path.
*laughs* And to take that which is incredibly simple on its face and make it into a sci-fi epic
simply with an amazing score is fascinating and a massive accomplishment.
John - I think it’s the same with Star Wars, it took a bunch of people in silly costumes with laser
swords like the biggest thing ever.
Drew - Into one of the biggest franchises ever. With video games that also have good scores I
was playing Battlefront 2 for the first time in 6 months last night and I was like “hey this a
StarWars”. No one can see this but I am wearing my StarWars shirt today. In a similar vein but
in a very different style of music, Doom
-Doom theme plays-
Drew - The new Doom because I didn’t grow up playing video games. But I would imagine
Doom Eternal falls in lieu with Doom 2016 it has this like over the top, high rhythm, metal
inspired, score that takes a game where you could just sit and shoot enemies and makes it feel
like you could need to keep running and you need to keep moving. Which the game mechanics
reinforce but it’s that heavy distorted Allis in Chains-y guitar that makes me go like okay I need
to keep going or I’m gonna have a panic attack.
John - And you find something to put a chainsaw in.
Drew - *laughs* Because I need more ammo.
Beto - It’s also very aware of ambiance.
Drew - Yeah
Beto - Yeah like in some of the parts in Doom Eternal like shifting from environment to
environment there’s environments that are more cathedral like mix matched with like a similar
rhody choir or something.
John - Yeah that’s cool from like a composing perspective but also like the mixer and stuff like
that and implementers have a lot of work to make that feel how it does.
Drew - One of the other things that I wrote down in my notes in terms of ambiance was like
totally opposite of what we’re talking about now. Is a game like Minecraft or Animal Crossing
for example.
- Animal Crossing music begins to play-
Drew - There is constantly music playing and it is designed to be ambient. It’s designed to be
music to work to. The new Animal Crossing: New Horizons for example has a different track for
each hour of the day and a different variation of each one of those tracks for the weather. So
there is a 5 pm and it’s raining. There is a 2 am and cloudy track.
John - Does it know when it’s raining?
Drew - No, not in real life, in the game because the game has that synchronized time thing so
when it’s 5 pm here it’s 5 pm in the game but like the weather doesn’t match up.
John - Yeah I knew that the time and seasons and stuff synched up but I didn’t know if they
stepped it up with the new one and real time there.
Drew - Minecraft to me is the one that like, I mean I am guilty of turning the music off in
Minecraft because once you’ve played hundreds of hours of Minecraft, you’ve heard all the
music in Minecraft. But it’s still like a masterpiece of ambient music. Like it’s the kind of music
that fades to the background. But it’s on purpose. It’s not like you’re ignoring it it’s just designed
to be chill Minecraft beats to listen to and study
Beto - Yeah I think it’s talking about modes of listening, like it sounds like Minecraft or that type
of music is centered to casual listening. Where you can just let things pass by. I guess most video
games would be centered to that but I keep thinking back on Doom and how that might be more
referencial in playing on your emotions.
Drew - Oh yeah.
Beto - Like that high intensity has you react which is a cool concept. Just be like yeah in the
background you’re not realizing but you’re emotionally reacting.
Drew - You wanna talk about a video game that makes you react emotionally, let’s talk about
Sea of Thieves.
-Sea of Thieves music begins to play-
Drew - I know that John and I have played that game together and I for a long time made the
mistake of playing without music. Then I realized that’s wrong. Because for those who aren’t
aware the rest of the games we have talked about are very much Triple A franchises, well I guess
Minecraft’s not. But everyone knows those last couple. Sea of Thieves is a game where you are a
pirate and it’s a sandbox game.
John - It’s important to know that there are other pirates which are real people. It’s a multiplayer
game.
Drew - It’s an always online multiplayer game so you’ll sail out into this big open world with a
bunch of unique islands and then there’s another ship that can see you and come sink you and it’s
other players. And the way this game uses music is really cool because it uses it to key you into
events that are occuring in the world. So like, for example you can get attacked by a kraken
because it’s a pirate video game and of course you can.
-Kraken theme plays-
Drew - And you’ll know a couple seconds before hand because the kraken theme will start to
play. And it gives you a couple seconds to take cover or reload a cannon ball into your cannon.
And similarly if a big shark comes it’ll play that theme, or like a ghost ship will pop out. Like
you’ll hear the music for the ghost ship and you’ll be like, shit.
John - You can also pull out your herdy gerdy and jam out.
Drew - Oh yeah! That’s the other thing that Sea of Thieves does. It uses score in one way and it
also has this mechanic where you could just play an instrument. Like I could pull out a banjo and
John could pull out a Concertina and we could just play those instruments and play a shanty and
I think it’s interesting to use that as like a team building mechanic. It’s not like team building but
if you are playing with people you don’t know right, like you’re playing with a bunch of random
people and someone pulls out their instrument and they just start playing. It’s like emotes in
other games.
John - Yeah.
Drew - You have any thoughts about Sea of Thieves John?
John - I think you covered a lot of the bases. I think the sound design in that game is super great.
It wouldn’t be half the game if they didn’t care about the sound design.
Drew - Like getting hit with a cannonball the sound is so big. One of my favorite parts of the
game is if you get shot. Well If a cannonball gets shot at you and it misses you but it’s still in
your periphery you hear a cannonball sound effect as it flies past your head. It’s terrifying.
John - It feels scary, like you’ve almost gotten hit with an actual cannonball.
Drew - It combines with controller shit too, like you feel this rumble when the cannonball goes
by. It’s like oh my god. It’s so cool Beto you should play it with us. *laughs*
-Transition Music plays-
Beto - So it’s just simple questions; what have you been listening too? What does that reflect?
What’s going on in your life right now?
Drew - This turned into therapy Beto. Oops that’s therapy.
Beto - Oops, it’s secret therapy.
Drew - Oops, it’s all therapy.
Beto - Lately, when I’ve been driving around with my partner I’ve been blasting the smiths
again. Which isn't anything new or super exciting. But I guess what i have been listening to is the
Meat is Murder ablum. You know what my least favorite track on that album is? It’s the Meat
and Murder Track.
Drew - Oh Ironic.
Beto - Yeah I think I’m doing enough noise music in school now that I don’t really want to listen
to scary sounds that are in that song. It’s a little bit unsettling.
Drew - you just want that good good melody.
Beto - Yeah I want that cruning but the one that’s not about to cry. Actually you know that’s a
lie. Anyway my favorite song that I’m listening to off there is Rushmore Ruffians. It sounds like
there’s a squirrel in there.
Drew - *laughs*
Beto - I’m a fan. What about you Drew?
Drew - I was listening to saint Vincent who is an artist I have dipped into a little bit. She’s an
alternative artist and also a producer. And she got really popular probably around the same time
Regina Spektor did. She has these like big chunky fuzzy distorted nasty guitar sounds that I think
are super cool. I was listening to her 2017 album Masseducation. It’s the one that’s orange. It’s
really good. I really like it. I was turned on to her because she produced the most recent Slader
Kenny Album. And I really like Slader Kenny. Her music is really cool. It’s like that gnarly,
fuzzy, scuzzy kind of rock. Her style is kind of like one of those people who are ever evolving. I
was also listening to a lot of LCD sound system recently. But that’s never anything new. I’m
always listening to LCD sound system. I feel like I go back to listening to Sound of Silver once a
month something like that. Beto’s gonna have to hear me talk about them at some point because
I’m gonna definitely bring them. I’ve been really diggin on the song Someone great by LCD
sound system on the Sound of Silver album because I think it’s one of the best songs about loss
that’s ever been written. It’s a pretty cool song.
What about you B-John. . . B-John!
John *laughs* Well, I’ve been listening to this great album called titanic rising by weyes blood.
Drew - How do you feel about that album?
John - I don’t know. It’s okay.
Drew - *laughs*
John - Really, I’ve been listening to the sounds and music of Red Dead Redemption 2.
Drew - *laughs* Did you just do cross promo for the segment we just did? *chuckles*
John - Yes. Oh you know what I have been listening to classical piano music cause I’ve been
trying to learn some bach.
Drew - Yeah John’s like our resident “listen to old music” and I don’t mean like Beto and I who
like The Smiths, I mean like from hundreds of years ago.
John - Or Regina Spektor.
Drew - She’s 40 years old. She’s not that old. John, what are some of you favorite composers?
Because that’s kinda like your wheelhouse.
John - Well, probably Beethoven. There’s also this guy named Brahms, his favorite composer
was Beethoven. Fun fact there are sort of diverging schools of thought on whether Beethoven
was the peak of music or not. Like back in the 1800’s. And Brahms was just like “yeah we
should just be trying to emulate Beethoven school of thought. And the other school was like “nah
we wanna like get crazy and go in different directions like Mhaler and stuff like that.
Drew - This is a music history lesson. Beto do you have any thoughts on that because I sure
don’t. I’m uncultured.
John - Is Beethoven the peak of music?
Beto - No because I think it’s the Buji people.
Drew - No because music is riff raff. We’re gonna ignore what I said about riff raff. Wise
decision.
Beto - I’ve seen Riff Raff live.
Drew - You’ve seen Riff Raff live!?
Beto - Yeah I’ve seen Riff Raff live.
Drew - This is the first time that Beethoven and Riff Raff have been mentioned in the same
conversation, I guarantee you.
Beto - *laughs*
John - What is Riff Raff?
Drew - What is Riff Raff? Just Google Riff Raff. He’s technically a musician right like he’s a
rapper.
Beto *laughs* I don’t know. *Beto raps: Tip Toeing in my Jordans* I saw him do that with a
grey goose in his hand.
Drew - I’m now coming up in my head with this horrible picture of Beethoven with Riff Raff’s
hair.
Beto *laughs*
Drew - Here’s my Beethoven fan fic.
-Transition music plays-
Beto - I am wondering if there is a reason why you’re listening to what you’re listening to. I have
reasons as to why I listen to some stuff.
Drew - Sure.
Beto - For example, The Smiths. I am listening to them because I am having trouble writing
lyrics right now.
Drew - They are a fantastic band to go to.
Beto - I like how Morsy writes and utilizes his lyrics because he sings it in such a weird way. He
doesn’t go on traditional rock ways of singing.
-John sings like Morsy-
Drew - I didn’t know Morsy was here.
Beto - Yeah that’s why I am listening to The Smiths again.
Drew - I have been listening to saint Vincent simply on a recommendation from a podcast.
Nothing too deep about that. I know I come back to LCD sound system a lot and you guys have
heard me talk about LCD sound system a lot. Not because it’s necessarily nostalgic. But just
because I stumbled into it about a year ago. Not that long ago considering they’re one of my top
artists of all time. Ans Sound of Silver was an album that I was listening to during some really
important moments in my life last summer. Like doing things that I never got to do before. And
also having really good things and really bad things happen in my life. And I think for that
reason it’s something crystalized in my mind as something important to me. And I really enjoyed
listening to it when it didn’t mean that. I also really enjoy listening to it now that it’s taken on
new meaning for me. It’s also just a really good album. What about you John?
John - I’ve been trying to escape from reality a little bit. You know with video games.
Drew - Oh boy do I know what you mean.
John - Tending towards these like immersive worlds I guess, If there’s any trend to the types of
video games I’ve been preferring during this CoronaVirus event. It’s been the ones that sort of
take me somewhere else in a really immersive way. So I guess that’s why I have been playing
Red Dead.
Drew - Again, oops all therapy. Again I just realized I’m in the same position.
Beto - This is therapy.
Drew - Yeah this is oops all therapy. *chuckles*
Beto - I knew it. Gotcha. I'm a Psych minor.
Drew - You’re a psych minor? I didn’t know that about you.
Beto - Yeah I’m a psych minor.
Drew - John you saying that has made me realize that I am in the exact same place. Like the
games I have been playing recently are like multiplayer because I want to have human
connection. The immersiveness really speaks to what everyone is going through right now. And I
know that we’re not a video game podcast, we're a music podcast. But I think that the gaming
community is all on that page right now you know.
John - Yeah.
Drew - Yeah.
-Transition theme comes in-
Beto - I’m getting fallout. Alright that wraps up this episode of Out of Phase presented by PSPS.
I wanna thank our guest John Hongel today. Thanks for being here and taking the time. And I’m
Beto Carrasco.
Drew - And I’m Drew Havner
Beto - And we’re signing off.
Drew - Thanks for listening.
Out of Phase Episode 3 : Blame it on the Goo
Out of Phase Episode 3 : Blame it on the Goo
DH: (singing indistinctly, falsetto) “It’s just like I’m living in paradise… I don’t wanna go home”
BC: Is that really the song?
DH: No I wish that were the intro and outro music. No, it’s just…
JK: Well that’s going to be the intro now.
DH: (continues singing)
JK: Hey Max, can you make that the intro?
DH: I changed keys, did ya like it?
JK: Isolate all of Drew’s audio for this portion and make it the intro, or even better make it the outro.
(conversation fades into lo-fi piano music)
DH: Hi everybody and welcome to Out Of Phase, presented by PSPS. I’m Drew.
BC: And I’m Beto Carasco.
DH: This week we have Jonah Kallen with us. Say hi, Jonah.
JK: Hi.
DH: Awe, I was hoping you’d say “hi Jonah”.
JK: Yeah, I knew you were, that’s why I didn’t.
DH: That’s fair. Jonah what do you do at PSPS?
JK: I’m a lead light tech.
DH: What does that mean?
JK: It basically means I push buttons that involve light and not sound.
DH: You make the lights look good.
JK: Yeah, I make em look good, I plug em in, I do the light math. Make colors.
DH: You’re the only one who does light math. The rest of us are just like “that looks good”.
BC: It looks very good.
DH: Jonah is going to join us this week and they’re going to talk about storytelling in music later in the episode. So we’re going to transition right into our first segment where I’m going to talk about some music that makes me nostalgic. Welcome to my nostalgia corner, you two. The nostalgia nook, is that what we decided on?
(both laugh)
JK: I do like alliteration.
DH: This week we’re talking about “Lady Madonna” by the Beatles. I normally start this segment by telling ya’ll about the artist, and a little bit about them. I don’t know if I need to do that with The Beatles, necessarily. If you’re somehow unfamiliar with The Beatles, this is fine, just unexpected. They were a band that originated in Liverpool, England in the early 1960’s and essentially dominated the sound and style of music landscape in the 1960’s, up until about 1970. They were one of those bands that really broke the difference between US and UK bands. They’re part of the British invasion. They’re The Beatles. I’m sure you’ve heard of them, I’m sure there are very few people who are hearing this that are like “Who are The Beatles?”.
(lo-fi piano music fades over for a few seconds)
DH: I wanted to talk about “Lady Madonna” this week, which is a song released pretty much only as a single in 1968, Parlophone in the UK and Capital Records in the US released them. And it’s a song that was written by Paul McCartney, although all of their music is accredited to Lennon McCartney as a writing duo. It’s a tribute that Paul McCartney wrote to working women. People have speculated that it had to with his mother, who was a working woman who was very important in his life. Ironically enough, John Lennon actually didn’t think this was a very good song. Which I don’t understand, I don’t know why you would put out a product that you don’t think is very good. I’m also not going to try to psychoanalyze John Lennon because I’m not qualified, nor do I care that much. He’s been quoted as saying the song has “a good piano lick, but the song never made it anywhere. Maybe I helped him on some of the lyrics, but I’m not proud of them either way”.
JK: Damn.
DH: Which is kind of a condemnation of a very popular single of theirs. That’s from “All We Are Saying,” the last major interview with John Lennon and Yoko Ono. And seeing as Lennon really enjoyed that “good piano lick” as he called it, we’re going to transition right into our first clip of “Lady Madonna”, by the Beatles.
(“Lady Madonna” begins playing from the beginning of the song)
Lyrics: Lady Madonna, children at your feet
Wonder how you manage to make ends meet
Who finds the money when you pay the rent?
Did you think that money was heaven sent?
DH: I think it’s interesting because it’s really riff heavy. I don’t know if that makes sense to either of you. It’s got this piano riff that starts the song and this riff-style base line, and then this really crunchy guitar comes in in the second verse. I think that’s one of the things that I really enjoy about it. It’s really jangle-y and pop-y. It’s very much a bop song. What do you think about that?
JK: I mean I had a huge Beatles phase.
DH: Like so many people did.
JK: Yeah, they’re a little popular, you know.
DH: I would say contextually popular. Marginally.
JK: Mmkay, sure. Anyways, I would always listen to them in the car when we were picking up my dad from work on my iPod nano at the time. Honestly I never really listened to the lyrics all that much.
DH: This is one of those songs that, for me, as someone who doesn’t really do well at digesting lyrics, I actually feel like I got once I listened to it. Just not usually how I digest music. I always.. to me, if you listen to the lyrics it’s pretty clear that it’s about a working woman raising kids. And that comparison to Madonna, the biblical figure and not the pop-star obviously. I also had a Beatles phase, I guess I would call it. Interestingly enough, it doesn’t have to do with why this song is nostalgic for me. I’ll get into that later, though. Beto what do you think about this song?
BC: I actually never knew when this song was released. I always thought it was an older one. I really always thought it was one of their first songs. I’m surprised by the date. But now that sorta makes sense. I actually don’t know when these albums released, either “Let It Be” or the White album. But it’s starting to make sense, within that context of sound.
DH: It’s interesting because you can see, if you listen to The Beatles discography as their interests, the four of them- well, really the three of them because Ringo didn’t really do a lot of song writing- as their interests diverged, you can really tell what is written by who. Because this is from 1968, one of the last years they were working together. And it came out around the same time as “While My Guitar Gently Weeps” and that’s a very different song, but it’s also written by George Harrison and not Paul McCartney. You can really tell the diverging interests of Harrison and Lennon and McCartney at this time because George Harrison was doing blues-y rock type stuff and John Lennon was doing experimental art-rock-type stuff, and Paul McCartney was like “I wanna write pop music still”. It’s that reason that on some of those later albums, like the White album you’ll have a song that’s like super experimental and the next song is an up-beat jangley pop song. Just because of the difference in writing styles at the time. And this one is so a Paul McCartney song it’s very clear.
BC: Yeah
JK: Yeah
BC: I would also say that this song is pretty nostalgic to me. I too had a Beatles phase. And it started first with my parents had a bunch of CD’s- my grandma used to send us CD’s from Mexico and in Mexico they had hella pirated music CD’s. And one of them was this over 100 tracks in one CD. An MP-something. It had almost the entire Beatles thing on there. That was my introduction- what really got me was the singles collection that came out in like the 2000’s, the one that’s red.
DH: One?
BC: Yeah, One. And “Lady Madonna” is on that one. That’s what I always listened to in the car.
DH: I’m going to get into that, but first I really wanted to talk about how this song kinda layers in a bunch of instruments one after this other, which is interesting. It progresses in this way that is kinda cool. It goes from this piano, and then piano and vocals, and then bass and piano and vocals, and then a bunch of layered vocals, and then this nasty nasty guitar, and then a weird ass sax solo in the middle of… It just layers and layers and layers in a cool way. I also really enjoy the- there’s this one specific point- and I do this with songs, I’ll pick one specific part of a song and I’m like “that’s the best part of this song, that’s brilliant”. And it’s the point, I believe it’s either the second or third verse, during the line “listen to the music playing in your head” and Paul McCartney jumps up to this really high note and holds it. And I think it’s fantastic, so we’re going to hear that clip from “Lady Madonna”.
(“Lady Madonna” playing)
Lyrics: Lady Madonna lying on the bed
Listen to the music playing in your head
DH: For me, the reason that this song, and also by proxy I talked about last week, this album is so iconic and nostalgic for me, is its relation to the compilation album One. And a little background on that album, it’s a compilation of all number 1 singles released by The Beatles. That hit number one- I should say- in the UK and the US between 1962 and 1970. And that’s 27 tracks in total in an 8 year span. 27 number one singles in 8 years is insane to think about. It baffles me. To this day there are very few people who do that. All these songs were remastered, actually, for this 2001 release. They all come from different places. I know that a lot of then, like “Lady Madonna” are just single releases, but there’s also “Help” on there, which is on its own album. There’s a bunch of stuff on there that comes from other albums.
(lo-fi piano music)
DH: We’ve all had this Beatles phase, like we talked about. For me it didn’t actually come up until more recently. It was interesting because it was kind of forced upon me in a way. Last summer, about a year ago, I took a class about The Beatles, in which I had to listen to a lot of their music. We would listen to their entire discography of studio albums in 10 week. Which is doable but that a lot of material to chew through. And it’s something that I had never done with any artist and The Beatles are a fantastic one to do, if you’re also learning about the history of the group. It’s also a little eye opening because you start to get listening to the lyrics and thing evolving for each of these individuals. And it can kind of show you that they didn’t all seem like the greatest people. We were going to talk about “I’m Looking Through You,” which is an earlier song of theirs that’s also Paul McCartney and it’s about his girlfriend at the time wouldn’t give up her acting career and support him so he wrote this really “love disappears and you don’t love me”- it’s this really dramatic “you won’t stop having a career so that you can support my needs”. I feel like a lot of The Beatles music can be like that, where it’s selfish sometimes- not all of it. And this isn’t me trying to tarnish any of their reputations, they’re very important in a lot of ways, but-
JK: Some of their music is problematic.
DH: It very much so. Especially John Lennon to me, because sometimes the things he writes about like “I used to beat women, haha I’m still a good person”. Hey, that’s a weird thing to write about in a song. Why- anyway. That’s not the point of what I’m talking about. That’s something that arises when you listen to their entire discography..
(lo-fi piano music)
DH: That was more my Beatles phase. Last year, having to take that class and listen to all of that stuff and- but One is a compilation album so we didn’t talk about One. Because One is outside the scope of their discography, it’s something that was produced in 2000-2001. So the reason this is nostalgic to me is because my family owned that album when I was growing up. We had the CD, we had the original 2001 remaster release of the CD. It was one of the CDs that was, as a kid, something you could listen to. My dad had a lot of stuff like Alice in Chains is not particularly palatable to an 8 year old, for example. So that is not something I would listen to as a kid. But The Beatles were, and The Beach Boys. This compilations album is this iconic, aesthetic both visually in its album art and its sonic aesthetic, because it’s all the singles. It’s all the really popular songs and that’s what I think of when I think of The Beatles. Because it’s been burned into my brain. I feel that One is more emblematic and more iconic of The Beatles to me than Abbey Road or Let It Be, which are objectively better albums because they’re actually an album and not a compilation of singles, but if I’m looking at One and Abbey Road album covers, One is the one that makes me think of The Beatles more than Abbey Road is. Which is super weird and backwards but it’s a product of having listened to it. And “Lady Madonna” is the thing we’re talking about specifically this week because it’s one of my personal favorites on that album. I just really enjoy its blues-y jangley sound. Beto it sounded like you had kind of a similar experience with this album. That iconic, if you haven’t seen it, those that are listening, it’s basically just a red background with a large yellow alphanumeric one on it. And that’s the whole cover.
BC: Yeah, definitely. You made a really cool point about it being really approachable-
DH: Palatable, because…
BC: Palatable…
DH: to put it the way people our age would put it, it’s just the bangers. It’s just “Paperback Writer” and “Let It Be” and it’s all bangers.
JK: Oops, all bangers.
DH: It’s just the bangers. It’s all the really populars.
BC: Just the bangers. Because when I started listening to them I was coming right out of 6th grade, going into 7th grade in middle school and we got the CD and I was starting to get hooked on The Beatles. The first song that got me was- I don’t want to sing it, I’ll get embarrassed.
DH: Then the editors will you do you dirty and put it in the intro.
BC: I can’t remember the name but I had this CD and I remember listening to it constantly, constantly in the car. Then eventually I had this attitude like “ I don’t listen to anything on the radio, I only listen to The Beatles. Everything but The Beatles is trash. It’s garbage”.
DH: I was born in the wrong generation.
BC: All I listen to- I was born in the wrong generation. Like… Nah, I hope I never…
DH: That’s so good, though.
BC: (sigh) It’s true, though. That’s really what I listened to during middle school. I really did enjoy The Beatles a lot and looking back, and analyzing it, this was different. Because yeah it is more palatable. It really way. What did I have to relate to in- what’s that song by freakin’… it’s not R. Kelly… anything by R. Kelly, but- “Blame It On The Goo-“ oh, “Blame It On The Goose”.
JK: Blame it on the Goo!
DH: (laughing)
BC: I remember that was iconic. That was in like 6th grade.
DH: (still laughing)
BC: Blame it on the goo.
DH: That’s the episode title. We found it.
BC: That’s the episode. Blame it on the goo. You know what I mean? I couldn’t relate to anything like that. “Blame it on the Goose, got you feeling loose. Blame it on the ‘tron.” I didn’t even know what that was. I didn’t know those were alcohol brands. You know what I mean? That was what was really popular on the radio and stuff.
DH: I remember that period in time because we’re about the same age and I also had that similar experience where I was listening to stuff that was designed to be more generic, in a way. The Beatles are in a lot of ways, they’re quintessential pop, in a lot of ways they’re not, in a lot of ways they’re also really important to alternative rock and experimental- all these other things. That’s why they’re really important in my opinion. But also, Paul McCartney’s music in particular is pop. It’s just pop. And it’s- even though I’m surprisingly not a single working mother, there’s something that is appealing or relatable about “Lady Madonna,” and maybe it’s more in the way the music is written and the lyrics and the message, but I think that I’ve also had that experience of “this is palatable, this is relatable,” because it’s designed to be that way, if that makes sense.
BC: Yeah.
DH: Maybe, who knows. One of the other things that I always think is interesting about The Beatles is that they’re this- they have this mass appeal that I don’t quite get. You just said, Beto that your grandmother sent you a CD of The Beatles from Mexico, and that’s wild. Because they’re quite popular in Mexico. I mean, they’re quite popular in a lot of places.
BC: Have you ever heard of Sant y Johnny? Have you heard of the song “Sleepwalk”?
DH: No.
BC: Okay. Well you gotta listen to it. But these dudes made a whole album based on Beatles covers. And it’s like slide guitar in the 50’s-60’s. It’s slide guitar and lap steel. It’s dope. Yeah, then you’d understand, they were really big. They were big everywhere.
DH: Yeah, and that’s the case, right? That’s the thing that interesting to me. Why are 4 white dudes from Liverpool who sing about- a lot of the time problems and things that they relate to or have experience- why is it that group of people that have such mass appeal to citizens of Mexico, for example.
JK: Yeah, whenever I listen to their songs growing up, I listened to them mainly for not the lyrics. Because I was younger and didn’t really pay attention to those. But I tend to gravitate towards more weird music, even the pop-ier songs of The Beatles, they’re very unique in how they sound. So even though they have this mass appeal, of this iconic pop sound and, ya know, traditional song structure, they still break the form in ways that make it new, and not just repetitive.
DH: I feel like I’ve never met anyone who dislikes The Beatles. In fact, I rarely meet anyone who is like “ehh, they’re fine”. I feel like most people are like “yeah, The Beatles are good”. I have a friend who is very much into punk and hard rock from the ’90s but he loves The Beatles. It’s that mass appeal, it’s interesting.
BC: Part of the appeal of The Beatles to me, especially with that number one album, was that it made me- it helped- I don’t know, this is dramatic. I’m already analyzing this part, this may be dramatic or extra, I think it helped me make sense of emotions or things that I was feeling. One of them was- I had a memory of sitting in the car and I was really sad that my parents were fighting and I remember that track on an album called “We Can Work It Out”.
DH: Yeah, that’s on One.
BC: I remember thinking that “oh, my parents should work this out, just like the song”. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that The Beatles helped me feel things, ya know?
DH: The Beatles taught you to love and to hate.
BC: To feel, yeah. And I was like, damn.
DH: Fantastic.
(lo-fi music fades over voices)
JK: Totally unrelated, but I remembered how I got all of my Beatles songs.
DH: How?
JK: So, me and my dad would go to the library and just rent all the Beatles CD’s, burn them all, and then take them back the next day.
DH: Yep. This is what I did in high school. Sorry, Washington County Public Library System.
JK: Oh yeah, and then I did that. Once I was old enough to go to the library by myself I did that. Because I was like “I want to be able to access this music”.
DH: I got really good at being able to-
JK: And then of course streaming services came out.
DH: Right. Before I had Spotify, I got really good at taking stuff from the library, or I would borrow a CD or use one of my dad’s CD collections and burn it onto my computer, but also then sift through the- I think usually services call it meta-data. The stuff that’s like, track name and album name and album artist and all the kinda stuff that makes it look like- and album are, for example- that makes it look like it’s legit on an MP3 player. And I would upload the album art and I’m gonna get all the meta-data correct so that it looks like the album and not just a blank CD symbol or whatever is the placeholder with just the file name. I got really good at- I guess I’m saying I got really good at pirating music from the public library.
JK: I mean it’s like an interesting process. Because it doesn’t exist to the same extent at all than it did. So it-
DH: Which is wild because this is when I was in high school, like 5 years ago. I guess this was a point where I was like “physical media, I want to have-“ I would burn a copy of that CD that I had literally a book of CDs that I kept in my car in High School and it has, One is one of them-
JK: I have my cassette player right here.
DH: There you go. Yeah, I mean now I’m just on the “physical media is dead” train. Because…
JK: I like the ephemerality of cassette media.
BC: Alright, now our guest Jonah will be talking to us about storytelling in music.
JK: Yeah, so storytelling in music is something that I find really important because I am a Theater Arts major, to give some background, primarily tech-focused. But I enjoy theater greatly. Storytelling has been something that’s been a part of my life for a long time, doing theater-related things. Whenever I came across songs or albums that seemed to tell a story or go through events, those are the ones that really stuck with me.
DH: So like, looking for like uh a narrative throughout a whole album kind of a thing?
JK: Yeah, yeah, there’s like a number of albums that do that. One of the first ones that when I was trying to remember, um, the first one that came to mind is Electric Light Orchestra’s Time, it is like the story of this man from the ’80s going to like 2095. His experiences in this like the futuristic world that like some of it is like eerily similar to our world, but that’s not part of the analysis, um but they do mention a personal assistant who’s also a phone, so that’s oddly specific.
DH: Brilliant. Is time technically -- I don’t know a ton about ELO-- is it technically like a rock opera? Cause it feels like it’s structured like that. Right?
JK: I don’t know.
DH: I know that like, I would imagine at least that this draws to some extent from like things like The Who, who were really popular for Tommy and Quadrophenia, which are like big rock operas. So that to me is what I think of when I think about storytelling in music on like a large scale not just like this song tells a story. I think about The Who and rock operas and things like that because they have that literal narrative that can be adapted into a written format or like a stage format. Which is something that they’ve done with Tommy many times.
JK: I mean the interesting with Time, I find is like, the songs like there is a definite narrative between them all, as, like stand-alone songs, they are all pretty different, some of them are like, not only in the style of music but also you know what they are saying in the song with the lyrics. Some of them seem to be like you know type fears of like “technology is gonna ruin us” and others seem to be enjoying it or having fun on a tangent. Some songs just stand out as individual songs that you can definitely be like “oh! that relates because this one line” but that’s why it sticks to me because the songs exist separately from this narrative but fit within it ---
DH: Right, yeah like you can pick them out and listen to them, and maybe that’s what differentiates it between like a rock opera and more of a studio album because to me like you can pick out some things from Quadrophenia, for example, but it’s designed really to be listen to on that like its designed to be one product not like---
JK: Yeah.
DH: There’s no like - Quadrophenia has good music but I don’t really know if there’s anything that I would pick out of it that is like, “I’m gonna put this on a playlist”, right, like I haven’t listened to Quadrophenia in a number of years so you know many that just me misremembering it.
JK: Time has some real bangers in it, its got like “Twilight” which is a good one
DH: I really liked how you had us listen to “21st-Century Man”, I really enjoyed that, it was very, I’m not super familiar to Electric Light Orchestra, but I started listening to this and I was like “That’s Electic Light Orchestra” I would’ve been able to tell you that just by the fact that I only know Mr. Blue Sky.
JK: Yeah, Jeff Lynn has a very distinct voice. He’s amazing, and I think he writes most of the songs, he also just has like really good songs from his own personal work, I really enjoy too. Yeah, he has a very distinct style, and “21st Century Man” I feel like is very relevant given our current events. Like the isolation of technology and ---
DH: Right because that is was is happening right now. We are isolated because of technology.
JK: I mean, no, but like the isolation that results from even like having zoom calls like it’s not the same you know.
DH: So much of these like sci-fi rock, opera-type things from that point of time were just like “technology!” and I’ve never, I mean, I’m 21 so I’ve grown up with extensive technology in my life like the rest of us probably have, and like I’ve never really got that message cause I’m like okay what would you without the technology you’re using to make to literally make the product that I am listening to.
JK: Yeah, I mean...
BC: Damn, got ‘em
DH: Yeah I got ‘em, I got those boomers.
JK: Yeah, wow, you really-
DH: Dismantle the whole argument of the whole music. I won music. I didn’t know I could do that.
BC: I think you did.
(lo-fi music)
DH: Jonah, I’m really interested in like, how does that idea of like enjoying narrative in music, is it specifically albums, like a whole concept album with a narrative, or are you also interested in individual songs that have a narrative to them?
JK: Yeah, I enjoy narratives in all those formats. Another album by PSU album Esperanza Spalding the album is called 12 Little Spells and it goes through different parts of the body. Each song is like a different part of the body and it’s beautiful. It’s not a narrative in the traditional sense of like the heroes journey or whatever, its a narrative of mindfulness in a way? Of going through the body and recognizing all the parts. That’s a conclusion I didn’t expect to draw
~sound clip of Esperanza Spalding song~
JK: For 12 Little Spells, I was lucky to go a talk she gave at PSU a couple of years ago and she was like talking about the process of writing these songs and what they meant to her and the journey you go through when you are going through your body and experiencing these feelings. When I heard that it kind of blew my mind a little, cause you don’t typically think of experiencing your body as a narrative but it definitely is! Because you are going through this journey of experiencing different parts and sensations and different parts of the body that do completely different things.
DH: Cool.
BC: That’s pretty neat, I’ve never thought about storytelling like that in music. I was sitting here trying to think about the music I listen to that tells a story and I can’t really think of anything or a single album, I can think of songs…..and I realized from The Cure
DH: Yeah that tracks, I, having grown up listening to a lot of classic rock, I like this is this whole conversation like I said is super indicative of the rock opera, which I have always thought is a really cool concept.
(lo-fi music)
DH: Alright so next, Beto here is gonna tell us about the importance of styles of indie in music on the genesis of psychedelic rock in the mid to late ’60s.
BC: Yeah, thank you, Drew. You know when you think of psychedelic music you think about the 60’s you know obviously we have the summer love period in American culture and in cultural development. Think about some of, I hope they’re some of your favorite artists, think about the Beatles, think about Jimi Hendrix, the Doors, Janis johnson so on and so on.
DH: Keep going. No you can keep going, you got more, I guarantee.
BC: Simon and Garfunkle-
DH: Wouldn’t have called them psychedelic rock, but sure.
BC: Oh I said 60’s, I said 60’s. I said psychedelic yeah.
DH: My favorite psychedlic artist, Simon and Garfunkle!
BC: Simon and Garfunkle! Dude, I mean that song, what’s that song… “hello Darkness my old friend”
DH: “The Song of Silence.”
BC: You know what I’m saying. I could already be a little bit...you know...
DH: If it had some sick sitar behind it.
BC: Some sick sitar, yeah! No, let’s talk about the sitar. All right you all know “Norwegian Wood”, the song by The Beatles. That banger right off, um, it’s not Rubber Soul, is it?
DH: Yeah.
BC: It is Rubber Soul, see right off the bat, Rubber Soul right. During that, that song we see the Beatles start to introduce an eastern- eastern quotations right- what is an Indian, a north Indian instrument known as the sitar. And we hear that in the back, it plays like a little melody hear sand there and this is like uh part of this developing interest with rock musician or other western musicians this fascination or this attraction to Indian culture. From this, we start to see this development of music alongside the rise of the counter-culture movement of the 60/s, like the summer of love 65, and we start hearing these instruments in contemporary music that weren’t heard before. And they start calling it garage rock. We have like the rolling stones doing it too, we got like “Paint it Black” that’s like a very popular song. Brian Jones, shout out to Brian Jones. Mick Jagger killed him. Let’s be real.
DH: Wait for what? Is that a conspiracy theory? Mick Jagger killed Brian Jones.
BC: Just kidding...yeah… they had Brian Jones killed.
DH: I didn’t know that!
(all three laughing)
DH: Okay were not auspicing that, at using our platform to do that…. I’m just baffled.
JK: You heard it here first.
DH: You heard it. We’re breaking the news.
JK: Drew is officially accusing….
DH: No, please don’t.
BC: *laughs*
JK: I want to finish that sentence.
DH: Because if Mick Jagger ever hears our podcast, with 20 listeners, he’ll sue the shit out of me.
BC: No, and I just, you know to go forward that’s like 1964, right, “Norwegen Wood.” 1964 -1965. Sgt. Pepper is the follow-up and that’s 1965. That’s when like the psychedelic music is hitting, and it’s just really interesting because when I think of this time period I’m really focused on American artists you know, and I think it’s peculiar that we see these American artists so influenced by Eastern artists. Like the Indian culture and stuff. During this time period, there was a development or rise of psychedelic rock music in India as well. But it’s just funny, well it’s funny to me that the westerners are so caught up in trying to adopt or mimic these styles of music from this culture and India is doing the same thing but to the western culture. It’s like this weird loop that happened. Well during this time period in India, I guess the culture there was a bit more conservative during this time, from what I read and like I found or whatever. A lot of the catalysts that allowed this music to develop were radio stations and college campuses and they started to host what we do with PSPS. You know like, the noon concerts….
DH: Live at Lunch.
BC: That thing that we do….
DH: That we do regularly and you should remember.
BC: Regularly. And they had these local artists come and play rock, rock music and out of this some like really awesome musicians came out of here and I would say that they are on par with what are popular American or British artists. They’re like mimicking the style and they’re doing it great, you know.
(lo-fi music)
BC: 1972, 1970, and 1971 there was this competition that was hosted by this cigarette company called Simla Cigarette company. They had this rock festival called Simla Beat and the winners of this had the opportunity to record some of there tracks and this is like a very small collection of what we have of music from that time period and it’s called the Simla Beat 70/71 collection. And some great examples of this type of music and this time period is the song “Mist” by Great Bear.
(clip of song plays, mostly instrumentals)
BC: And right off the bat, you can kind of hear that psychedelic sound, you can hear that what we hear in Jefferson Airplane and “White Rabbit” and they’re doing it, man.
DH: That’s such a good song, I havent thought about “White Rabbit” it so long.
BC: It’s cool, it’s really cool and it’s like weird to say you’re surprised but damn theyre doing it. And then another example would be from this album would be the song “Psychedelic Web” by The Brood of Vipers.
(song plays)
BC: I guess what I’m trying to get at, there’s like definitely a connection, a very loose explanation, very very loose, no fact checks just some paper I wrote for one of my classes, but I don’t know it’s just interesting to think about what……. how would you say this..?
DH: Like the cross-cultural pollination?
BC: Yeah, the cross-cultural pollination. Sure, like what it takes like this psych music wouldn’t have developed if it wasn’t for Indian culture or Western artists’ fascination with Indian culture. But at the same time, this awesome psychedelic music wouldn’t have existed without their own culture but Western rock music you know.
DH: It’s like this ouroboros of like okay this influenced this which influenced a thing in this feedback loop which led to psychedelic rock.
BC: Yeah! And I’m also wondering if it’s not just that, its also like the time period like there must have been a really crazy time period.
DH: The ’60s and ’70s were a weird time period in India, I believe that the mid-’70s were when they were fighting a war in Pakistan but I’m….
BC: It’s true, yeah it had just finished I think.
DH: Yeah 1971 was the Indo-Pakistani war, which is a very violent and like strife-filled conflict over territory and I feel like we usually see these kinds of styles of like escapism in music like psychedelic rock for example during things like that, like the Vietnam War in the United States.
BC: Are you two fans of any music from this period? Any psychedelic music I suppose? Other than the Beatles, the Beatles don’t count we know...
DH: Yeah I wouldn’t classify the Beatles as psychedelic music.
BC: We already know.
DH: Yeah, I enjoy a lot of the music from the late 60s and early 70s. I don’t know much I would classify it as psychedelic rock. I mean some people would some people wouldn’t, but I’ve always really enjoyed the Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd, which is like a really basic thing for me to like but it is a really good album, it’s really interesting.
BC: That’s psychedelic.
DH: Yeah, I mean, I had this like affinity with pink Floyd in high school because I got really deep into psychedelic rock like my junior year and like you talking about Jefferson Airplane and like I also really enjoy the Animals and Buffalo Springfield, which are a little bit less deep psychedelic than Jefferson Airplane for example is. But yeah, I definitely have that connection to it as well. What about you Jonah?
JK: I mean, it’s cheating a bit, I really enjoy George Harrison.
DH: I do as well.
JK: I, yeah, not technically the Beatles.
BC: I’m just kidding haha.
DH: George Harrison is like the psychedelic part of the people though.
JK: He brought that out in all of the songs that are more psychedelic for sure.
DH: Right, it’s like that introduction of the sitar and other Indian styles of music, which comes from the Beatles were in India, they took this like a meditative retreat in India and they picked up a lot of musical stuff from like the sitar. That how it started to get incorporated into their music.
JK: Yeah it’s interesting because two of my by musical interest overlapped bc ELO’s Jeff Lynn and George Harrison and a couple of other people who I can’t remember the name off and I’m gonna get shit for it later formed the Traveling Wilburys.
DH: I’m sorry, wait hold on, if the Traveling Wilburys you can remember Jeff Lynn of ELO and George Harrison--
JK: Yea, because I’m talking about them-
DH: But not Bob Dylan and Tom Petty?
JK: Yeah, I told you I’d get shit for it.
DH: And you got it immediately.
JK: Hopefully because I said shit that part will be cut out.
DH: Oh no, this has an explicit tag my man.
JK: Oh damn, oh well.
(lo-fi music)
DH: So what are we, what have yall been listening to?
BC: You know what? I’ve been listing to the Red Hot Chili Peppers and….
DH: That is, guess what, that was the correct answer.
BC: Yeah and I haven’t listened to them for a long time.
DH: I have not either.
BC: They were like one of my first real rock phases. That was like my freshman year of high school. I’ve been listening to “Californication”.
(clip of song)
DH: I always enjoy hearing some of the Chili Peppers, that’s one of those ones that….you can tell I’m a 40-year-old man because I called them the Chili Peppers.
BC: *laughs*
DH: That’s what my dad called them, I don’t know it’s just what I picked up fro him. I heard this joke this one time that when you have a gender reveal party because you know that a real good topical joke, right, when you have a gender reveal party in Southern California the only two genders you can pick from are the Red Hot Chilli Peppers and Sublime…. I thought that was a pretty good joke.
BC: That’s so….
DH: It’s not!....... Jonah what have you been listening to.
JK: I’ve been listening to this really weird artist who I just kind of stumbled upon. I don’t even know how I think I just randomly stumbled on them. The group is called Will Wood and the Tape Worms
DH: How is that spelled?
JK: Will space wood space and the Tapeworms.
DH:.....okay, okay. And the one word?
JK: I don’t wanna keep doing the space bit, I feel like I….
DH: I assumed it was, okay whatever… What track?
JK: Anyways yeah, their music is just really fucking weird, its another good example of narrative in song, because there’s like, weird narrative in this music that I haven’t really been able to unpack yet so that’s why I didn’t talk bout it. One really fun song is Hand Me a Shovel I’m Going In.
(song plays)
DH: Alright that was awesome, ironically enough to tie it back to the whole psychedelic stuff. One of the things I really wanted to highlight this week something I’ve been listening to is Kikagaku Moyo. It’s a Japanese psychedelic band, I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that right, in roman characters is K-i-k-a-g-a-k-u space M-o-y-o. They’re really cool. I found them a couple years ago and they do like psychedelic, like really honest to god psychedelic rock but it’s a modern band. Theyre currently together and currently making music. They’re not from the ’70s, and I always found that interesting that they are also from Japan, at least to my knowledge cause that’s not really a country that I associate with psychedelic rock in style really. Although I don’t really know a lot about Japanese rock music so I could be totally ignorant in saying that. I think a great example of Kikagaku Moya’s music can be found in their song Smoking Mirrors, which we’re gonna hear a clip of.
(song plays)
BC: Alright, well that wrapped up today’s Out of Phase Podcast, present by PSPS. I’m Beto Carasco.
DH: And I’m Drew Havnear.
BC: And we’d like to thank our guest Jonah for being here today.
JK: Thank you, this was fun.
DH: It’s been cool having you here.
JK: Also, I got paid so that’s cool……..That’s, that’s in the show now.
BC: Ayyyy.
DH: Cool. We’ll see you all next week. And then the end credit music plays.
(lo-fi music plays)
DH: Lady Madonna is a song by The Beatles
JK: Really?
DH: Yeah.
JK: Holy shit, my world is shattered.
DH: Oh man, I feel bad for the editor on this one. We’re fucking …10 minutes in? …….big oof
JK: Oof.
Out of Phase Episode 4 : Death Punk
Out of Phase Episode 4 : Death Punk
A: Yeah, the original sounds, to me, like much more folky, almost. And it’s done in a- I don’t know if it’s a major key, I really don’t know- but it sounds lighter and it sounds like, even though they’re talking about this super depressing, horrible time, it’s still bouncy and hopeful, almost, I guess. It’s interesting.
D: In terms of, like, covers that you didn’t know were covers, my favorite is “I Fought the Law,” which is something that is… I know through The Clash.
A: Who did that originally?
D: Okay, yeah, let me track this back for you. So, it was recorded in 1979 by The Clash. That was the popular version that I know, and I think that people of our generation know.
A: Right.
D: Even though it’s more like our parents’ generation. But, it was actually popularized by a group called The Bobby Fuller Four, who were a rock and roll- an early rock and roll- like a little bit doo-wop-y group in the mid or early 60’s. But they didn’t write it because theirs was a cover of a song- of the same song written by Sonny Curtis of the band The Crickets, who was Buddy Holly’s backing group.
A: Daang.
D: But Buddy Holly and The Crickets, Sonny Curtis was a member of The Crickets. He wrote “I Fought the Law,” it was covered by The Bobby Fuller Four, and then again covered by The Clash in the late 70’s. Which is a great chain of events because also, if you listen to that through the lens of The Clash, not knowing it’s a cover, it sounds like a punk song. Because it’s “I fought the law and the law won, ‘The Man’s keeping me down,” right? That’s why I never thought it was a cover, because it feels so in line with the message of the genre, but it’s like “oh, no, it was written by one of Buddy Holly’s friends”.
A: right? Like, literally the original genre means nothing when you can do it good in another one. I could friggin do Father John Misty in death punk and you’d be like “yeah, maybe, maybe that’s possible.”
D: Now, can you describe to me the genre that is death punk?
(laughing)
D: I’m going to google that one real quick.
A: I think it’s like real, so please look it up. But maybe it’s like death metal?
D: It’s not! I think you mean death metal. It’s that hard steel music.
A: I’m gonna make it, okay?
D: I’ve always found covers super cool like that cause it’s- I enjoy hearing a reworking of a song that I know by an artist that I like. I really like- this is a weird pull, and I talked about her earlier, not earlier in this show but earlier in one of our episodes, but- Regina Spektor has a cover of “While my Guitar Gently Weeps” and it’s on the soundtrack to the move Kubo and the Two Strings, the Laika stop motion move about the Japanese boy-
A: I like that movie.
D: -who has the shamisen.
(clip of Regina Spektor’s cover of “While my Guitar Gently Weeps” plays
Lyrics:
I look at you all see the love there that's sleeping
While my guitar gently weeps)
D: And it’s cool because it’s the end credit song too, so it’s still modern, but… it’s Regina Spektor singing “While My Guitar Gently Weeps” that’s being played primarily on a shamisen, I’m pretty sure. Which is a cool sound- it’s this very Asian sound. And Regina Spektor’s not Asian, she’s Russian and American, so it doesn’t really fit in that regard, but it’s really cool. I heard her play that live, not with a shamisen, and it’s a really- it’s one of my favorite covers, also. I knew that one was a cover, though, to be fair, because the original’s a little popular.
A: Yeah, for sure. I didn’t know- researching this- that The Beatles did, they covered some pretty popular songs, like “Twist and Shout” is a cover. Didn’t know that.
B: Yeah, their first songs, right? Were mostly covers.
D: Yeah, a lot of em’. I think that’s indicative of the music of the time, because in absence of copyright and stuff. They started out as kind of what’s called skiffle which is blues-y but British and skiffle has a lot of covers in it too. Beto what’s your favorite cover?
B: My favorite cover?
D: Yeah.
B: Shoot. Uhhh I don’t have one off the top of my head, but I have one that really stands out to me. It’s by this post-punk group called The Slits. It’s fronted by all women and they do a cover of (singing) “I heard it through the grapevine”.
D: I didn’t know that was a cover. I don’t know that song super well though, so.
B: Yeah, and I honestly had never heard the original, I can’t even… We should find who that’s originally by.
D: I’ll google it. Man, I’m really good at googling stuff this episode. I’m the google master.
B: That’s probably my favorite- not favorite. That’s the one that I know the most.
D: You know what, “I heard it through the grapevine-” oh! Okay I do know this song.
A: (humming melody of “I Heard It Through the Grapevine”)
D: (reading from Wikipedia) “Norman Whitfield and Barret Strong for Motown Records, first produces by Whitfield for Gladys Knight & the Pips.” That’s who made it popular.
B: Yeah, it’s a good cover. They bring their own style to it, for sure.
D: Ashley, do you have any favorite covers?
A: Yeah, I really like, as I was looking into this I realized that I’ve done a lot of covers of songs that are covers. So, Nirvana did “Where Did You Sleep Last Night,” by Lead Belly. Which was, actually-
D: Oh! I didn’t know that one was a cover either.
A: Hey, ya learned something new.
D: I’m learning a lot in this section.
(clip of Nirvana cover of “Where Did You Sleep Last Night” plays
Lyrics:
My girl, my girl, don't lie to me
Tell me where did you sleep last night)
A: Yeah, but that was a folk song from the 1800’s, which was passed on mouth to mouth for years and years. But what I really like about covers is you can change to fit the time. Another song I was looking into was “Universal Soldier,” which I’d heard the Jake Bugg version of. He’s a more modern folk rock artist, but that was originally written in the 60’s, in Vietnam era stuff. Basically asking “why are people fighting? You don’t have to. La-dee-da-dee-da”. Yeah, that’s been changed a million times, and so has “Where Did You Sleep Last Night”. That was done over a hundred times.
B: It’s one of my favorites.
A: Yeah, it’s a great song.
B: Now that I think about it, yeah.
D: One of- I- there’s this- you saying that about changing it to fit the style made me think of Alt-J, if you guys are familiar with them. British alt-rock, electronic-
B: Breezeblocks.
D: No, Breezeblocks is not (laugh)-
A: (humming Breezeblocks)
D: Yeah, Breezeblocks. (Imitating Joe Newman) “They may contain the urge to run away”
(all humming and singing Breezeblocks)
D: I had them a little bit ruined, by the way, this is totally unrelated.
A: Oh no.
D: Someone ruined them for me a couple years ago, I love them still, but someone, a buddy, told me that their lead singer sounds like Adam Sandler when he sings, which is kind of upsetting.
B: (groans)
D: (imitating Joe Newman) “This is from, this is from Matilda”
B: Well, when you do it, especially.
D: Yeah, it’s a little bit Adam Sandler-y. Anyway, on Alt-J’s most recent studio album Relaxer they have a cover of “House of the Rising Sun” by Eric Burn and The Animals. Or maybe they were just The Animals at that point-
B: That’s a cover too.
D: Is that a cover?
B: Yeah.
A: Is it really?
B: Yeah
D: What?!
A: Everything’s a cover!
B: Okay so, so, so, so, so, something that happened when the rise of rock and roll, all the British artists got really hyped up on the blues, right? And they ended up bringing over a lot of- I don’t know- the Rolling Stones were famous for bringing Muddy Waters over to the UK and stuff. And they covered a lot of Muddy Waters’ songs too.
D: “House of the Rising Sun” is a traditional folk song. It tells of life gone wrong in New Orleans. I have only ever heard The Animals version of it. That’s the one that’s really popular, but-
B: A lot of blues covers.
D: Yeah, I guess that makes sense, too cause they’re a British band doing a cover of American blues. I think that is one of the things that really tells about the nature of covers, you see that a lot in that era. But, Alt-J has a cover of this song too, and it is so weird. Because it’s Alt-J covering a blues song. They’re also British so it’s kind of emblematic. It’s just the Brits. They like doing covers.
A: They really do.
D: It’s really cool. I really enjoy it. To the point where, I think we should slice in a clip, so listen a little bit to Alt-J’s cover of “House of the Rising Sun”.
(clip of “House of the Rising Sun” by Alt-J plays
Lyrics: There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun)
D: I really really enjoy that cover because I really enjoy Alt-J, but I also, I think it’s so cool. I just think covers are cool, especially when they’re actually transformative. For example, I think- Ashley, correct me if I’m wrong- but I’m pretty sure you play a cover of “Heart shaped Box,” right?
A: That I do.
D: It’s a good one. I like that cover. That’s my favorite cover.
A: Awe.
B: Awe.
D: No it actually is really cool, I genuinely enjoy your cover of “Heart shaped Box,” it’s really cool.
A: Thank you.
D: So Beto, I think you have something along the lines of goth-new-wave, post-punk history to tell us about, right?
B: Just a bit, ya know, here and there.
D: Just a bit. (laugh) Okay, my first question is, how would you define this genre?
B: I mean, um. Post-punk is like- starting- grabbing the low-hanging fruit, right? It’s definitely what comes after punk. So what happened-
D: There’s you English lesson for the day. Post and punk.
B: Ya know, so we could say that punk lasted through the 70’s till the early 80’s, whatever that was. But there were still plenty of punk bands, even till today. But, uh, this type of genre- this type of music, this post- punk music, it is popular for beginning in the UK.
D: So we’re talking, like, The Cure, right?
B: Well not just The Cure.
D: I know, but like The Cure, Joy Division- just broadly speaking to give people an idea of what we’re talking about.
B: Yeahh, so one of the popular-ish genres that developed during this post-punk era- you could just say the post-punk era lasted through the entire 80’s, just for a nice little, little thing.
D: Yeah cause then we get grunge.
B: Yeah, we get the beginning of this dark and gloomy – they call it goth, ya know, the beginning of goth-rock, goth-punk.
D: I always liked “goth-wave” cause it fells like it’s not just punk specifically, because there’s a lot of synth and stuff.
B: Yeah, but I would say that that is part of what defined post-punk. The adoption of also electronic elements to the music.
D: That’s a good point.
B: Yeah, and it was just like early on. Ya know, for example, one of the most noticeable or recognizable entries of the beginning of post-punk or the goth element of it, would be Bauhaus “Bela Lugosi’s Dead”.
(clip of “Bela Lugosi’s Dead” by Bauhaus plays
Lyrics:
White on white translucent black capes
Back on the rack
Bela Lugosi's dead
The bats have left the bell tower)
D: Yeah so you can clearly hear, there’s some real atmospheric elements going on, you know? There’s these real spooky elements going on and it’s very reminiscent of a genuine horror movie, or the guy-
D: Yeah.
B: Or the movies Bela Lugosi was in. Like Dracula.
D: This whole genre to me has this, like- not even in its sonic aesthetic, but in its actual words- has this real tangible connection to classic horror movies. Like “The Killing Moon” has this massive werewolf analogy. Or at least that’s what I get from it. It has all these- I mean I don’t think that’s what it’s about, but the idea of “The Killing Moon,” that kind of a thing.
B: Yeah. (laughs) “The Killing Moon”. I like Echo & The Bunnymen, they’re cool.
D: I don’t really know if I know any other Echo & The Bunnymen songs, but I really like “The Killing Moon”.
B: Yeah, that’s another good one to talk about, like the spooky element. It’s- when we say spooky I guess we’re talking about an atmosphere. There is an atmosphere to what they are doing. Which is really cool to see.
D: While I was sitting here listening to this in prep for this episode, I was just looking at the window and listening to The Cure and Bauhaus and Joy Division, and it was nice and sunny, and over the course of the 20 minutes I was listening to music, it got dark and started raining-
A: Jesus.
D: -and I was like “that’s uncomfortable”. But it fits the aesthetic.
A: I was listening to “Bela Lugosi” at like 2am last night and that was a bad choice.
D: Ooh, that’s scary, dude.
A: I was very creeped out.
D: I had this experience one time of driving like- I had this playlist of this kind of music cause I also really enjoy this music, and I was driving to Bend last summer, through the pass through the mountains, in this dense, dark forest and it was raining and I was like “I’m gonna fucking die”.
A: Oh god.
D: I mean it’s not scary, but like you were saying Beto, it’s got this aesthetic of spooky. It’s spooky. It’s unnerving a little bit, but also it’s not unnerving to the point where it’s unlistenable.
B: Yeah, no, it’s good.
A: Like Old-timesey spooky. Like an old movie where I’m not that scared because I know the special effects aren’t that good, but it’s still pretty spooky.
D: Exactly, and I think that’s the aesthetic they’re going for.
B: Yeah, it’s this- I don’t know. I like that it brings this- it’s like the framework. The skeletons of punk-rock, of distortion, the uneasiness or whatever. But they do bring it. They bring more things into it. They make it make it artsy, I guess is what I’m trying to say. They really do make it artsy. It’s no longer guitars and untalented people, now they’re like- I don’t know.
D: Oof. No, I know what you mean, though. And in message too, the message changes. The meaning changes from that first wave of punk rock is super political. If you think about, like I was talking about earlier, “California Uber Alles” by the Dead Kennedys- or just Dead Kennedys, I should say. That’s incredibly political and then you have stuff like “Ever Fallen in Love,” a lot of Joy Division stuff, for example is really personal. “Love Will Tear Us Apart” was on our list to listen to that you gave us, Beto, and that song is really deeply, deeply individualistic and personal and I think that that change is something that you see forever in punk rock. The cyclical nature of becoming political again and then- or maybe it’s less of a cycle and more of this coin. These two sides of punk where you see one side is really outwardly politically focused about other people and what they deserve, and their rights and things like that. And another side, I think we probably see this more in more recently, you see it in post-punk but you also see it post-punk revival in the early 2000s. And, ya know, how kinda emo punk and punk-pop came out of that. It’s all really deeply personal and about a personal experience, or a lot of times about love or something like that.
B: Yeah, I don’t know, I guess I had some other songs to talk about too, that I thought were kind of important in this development of what we call- I guess what do I even call this? Goth post-punk? Just post-punk for vagueness.
D: I like- I think that post-punk includes other stuff- I think it includes, for example, The Clash. But The Clash aren’t this. The Clash are punk, and then their later stuff is post-punk. But The Clash aren’t this. The Clash aren’t The Cure, ya know. The Clash aren’t spooky. The Clash are like weird and in your face. I think that it’s like- cause it straddles this line between new wave and punk proper. I think goth is probably the most important here. Goth wave, or something like that.
A: You could call it gunk.
(all laughing)
A: Goth punk.
B: Yeah that’s pretty cool.
D: gunk.
A: Wanna listen to some gunk!?
Drew and Beto: Wanna listen to some gunk.
B: Yeah, but (laugh)-
A: I’m outta here.
B: Part of what I was gonna say about that Clash thing, is a lot of bands reinvent themselves too. And they’re one of those bands that- I don’t know if they really reinvented themselves, but the kept changing their sound. A lot.
D: I think that they reinvented themselves on the same album. Like one would be a punk song and the next would be ska. We’ve talked enough about The Clash, though.
B: Yeah, but anyway. Something like that I think was really cool about The Cure was in their beginning, in their first album Three Imaginary Boys they’re doing, like, a straight up, post-punk album with straight ties to punk-rock. And then they develop this pop writing structure to it as well. They’re barely playing around with the spooky element. But if you didn’t know Robert Cure played with- Robert Cure (scoff). Robert Smith.
D: I was like “wait, hold on, his name is Cure?!”
A: Ironic.
B: That’d be dope, that’d be dope. No but Robert Smith played with Siouxsie and the Banshees, he was their guitarist for awhile.
D: Oh! I didn’t know that at all!
B: Yeah, so then he had a separate band. And then, on their second album- which is also one of my favorites… My favorite Cure is early Cure, just to put that out there. In Seventeen Seconds, we find the song “M,” and this is when you start to notice the atmospheric, goth element that they become well known for. This is the start, this album.
(clip of “M” by The Cure plays
Instrumental only)
D: The Cure has always stuck in my mind- not that I’m a huge Cure fan, but I do like The Cure. I was listening to the radio one time and they played, I think, “Friday I’m in Love, “ one of the more popular Cure songs.
B: I love that one too.
D: I mean it’s a great song, who doesn’t love that song. Hey, fun fact- this isn’t the anecdote at all- but a restaurant in Portland, an egg restaurant, called Fried Egg I’m in Love and I think that’s great. Shoutout to them, I’ve never been there, funny name. But I was listening to the radio, something came on, and as they transitioned out of it the DJ told this anecdote that he had heard- someone told him one time that any dude who was in a punk band in the 80’s, his girlfriend listened to The Cure. I always thought that that was the best way of describing the cure, through absolutely no explanatory means. Like, you can’t explain what The Cure is, but that kinda sets up what this broad goth and punk adjacent… I don’t know, I like that anecdote, I think it’s funny.
B: (laughs) Yeah.
D: I mean it doesn’t mean anything and it’s actually is horrible and doesn’t explain anything. But I don’t know, it’s a good joke.
B: Yeah, it’s a good one.
A: I liked how “M” was mixed because the lead signer’s voice was really far back.
D: Robert Cure?
A: Yeah, Robert Cure.
B: Robert Cure.
A: It was super far back, and there’s something unique about those harmonies and a lot of chorus on the guitar, which I thought was indicative of the time, but also they used it pretty heavily.
B: Yeah, and did you notice that blend of spooky guitar with electronic music from the synth? It was kind of a nice unison. They’re getting married right then and there.
A: Yeah, cause was this like early 80’s, or would you say…
D: 1980.
A: So they’re like just getting into synths.
B: They’re just on it, yeah.
A: Just havin a day.
B: It’s cool.
D: They guitar sounds like Nirvana to me. That’s kind of my only nascent thought.
B: Who isn’t influenced by The Cure?
D: That’s a good point.
B: The only reason I play guitar is because I listened to The Cure.
D: Yeah, you can really hear… We’ll get to Nirvana at some point, I’d imagine. But you can definitely hear that influence.
B: Yeah.
D: We must confront Kurt.
B: Now that I think about it, you’re totally right.
D: Yeah, I literally just playing it and I was like “that sounds like Kurt Cobain’s guitar”.
B: Yeah, I never thought about that, that’s cool.
D: I know that Kurt Cobain is very very… like The Cure and The Pixies are two big ones for him. We’ll get to The Pixies too.
B: I guess, moving forward, I think what The Cure and Joy Division are post-childs of what post-punk really was, for awhile. Or who is thought about when we listen to… I mean just listen to this, just listen to Joy Division’s “Love Will Tear Us Apart” and you’ll see.
(clip of “Love Will Tear Us Apart” by Joy Division plays
Lyrics: When routine bites hard
And ambitions are low
And resentment rides high
But emotions won't grow)
B: It’s interesting, though, this production, or this sound that Joy Division has was produced by Martin Hannett. Because, apparently, from what you hear about the old heads that still talk about Joy Division or seeing them live, they said that they had a more punk feeling to them. A live show would be something fast, fast. So a lot of Joy Division’s success is also accredited… Ya know, they’re talented guys. All of them were talented guys, but it’s also accredited to the producer Martin Hannett, who mixed them and gave them- is ethereal the right word to describe it? Like, outta this world sound.
D: Yeah, I would definitely describe them as ethereal, yeah. I would describe this whole genre as ethereal in a lot of ways. But Joy Division conjures images of… I think this is the classic horror analogy, right? The Cure conjures images of, like, Dracula and werewolves and shit like that. And Joy Division conjures images of, like, aliens.
B: Aliens? Oh sure.
D: Right. Right?
B: I never thought about it like that.
D: It’s all about aliens and werewolves and vampires and the swamp monster- It’s all the same cheesy horror, but-
D: I think it’s romantic, tbh.
D: Right. It’s that, like, yeah. Joy Division is the aliens of this genre.
B: They’re all romantic. No, they’re great. And it’s interesting to see this produced sound that takes you to this dark room, or this dimly lit room. Where these four awkward dudes are singing to you.
D: Beto, I feel like you know a little bit more about this time period than I do. To me, just listening to it and thinking about when these albums came out, it kinda feels like the Buzzcocks- which was one of the things you had us listen to. They feel like they’re part of this transition. They don’t feel as ethereal or spooky or horror-oriented as The Cure or Joy Division or Echo and the Bunnymen or something like that. They sound more akin to punk. They sound a lot like the Sex Pistols to me, in a lot of ways. Do you see them as kind of a transition?
B: Yeah, I think they’re earlier on that… not that early.
D: They’re late 70’s, as opposed to early 80’s. It’s a handful of years difference, at most.
B: Yeah, like I said, The Cure’s first album was in 1979, and this one is from 1978. So it’s not that far apart, I guess. What I was trying to express, I guess, with post-punk was the addition of other genres. Or the development of other genres. And “Ever Fallen In Love” could be described as a pop single, ya know? As what I would call it, it’s a good one.
D: It’s punk with pop writing. It doesn’t have this dark influence yet.
B: Mhm. But I think a lot of the characteristics that’re in it are present in a lot of other post-punk songs as well. In terms of structure or sound. Yeah.
D: Beto, what’s your favorite song from this genre, this era?
B: Ooof, damn. Alright, straight up? I’m more into the… I have a hard time between “M” or Joy Division’s layered development or the band New Order. They have a song called “Dreams Never End”.
D: I think for me it’s either gotta be “She’s Lost Control” by Joy Division or “The Killing Moon” by Echo & the Bunnymen. OR potentially, if you’re gonna group them into this genre, “Panic” by The Smiths. I don’t know if they should be grouped in this genre, maybe a little bit. But not entirely.
B: A little bit, for sure.
D: A little bit, but they’re not as deep into it as The Cure.
B: They’re like that… what are they called…
D: They’re new wave.
B: They’re founders of indie.
D: Right, they are a new wave band, but they are the reason indie rock exists. What about you, Ashley? Do you have any favorite goth or new wave? I know this maybe isn’t your primary genre, but like…
A: Yeah, I can definitely appreciate it, I really liked that Bela Lugosi song. And then, The Smiths I’ve always loved. Morrisey is dope. But I’m more like… I don’t know what category you’d put Tears for Fears?
D: Yes. I have Tears for Fears. Tears for Fears is way more new wave but it’s on the same playlist that I have, like Blondie and Joy Division on. Also, Blondie’s new wave, though so. So, Ashley, every time we bring people on the show we always ask them what they’re been listening to recently, and then we tell them a little bit about what we’ve been listening to. And we always ask why and what we like about it, so it’s a little bit more than just a straight recommendation. So what’re you listening to recently? What’ve you been into?
A: Yeah, so I’ve been listening to the band called Aleka’s Attic, I don’t really know how to say it.. But the lead singer was
D: Wait, how do you spell that?
A: It’s A-L-E-K-A-apostrophe-S. Attic, like in your house.
D: You know, the attic.
A: Like in your house. And the lead singer was actually Joaquin Phoenix’s brother, who died in the early 90’s. But it’s got this really cool-
D: River Phoenix, yeah?
A: Yeah, River. But it’s got this really cool punk, alternative folk rock vibe. And the song called “In The Corner Dunce” is really good. Just released in 2019 by his sister.
(clip of “In The Corner Dunce” by Aleka’s Attic plays
Lyrics: And so when I go around round and I hit the town
And when I can't be found, then you wait for sounds
Well it's over you, you're under me,
And if it's the way it should be then I won't bother
Your point of view is the point in me
So when you hear a loud sound it means I'm back from town
Now all this night is on my side)
D: That’s awesome, that sounds great. I’ve been listening to… ya’ll are gonna sigh at me. I’ve been listening to LCD Soundsystem. But when am I not listening to LCD Soundsystem. LCD Soundsystem is one of my favorite bands. We just listened to one of their albums for our Album of the Week project, which- that blog post may or may not be up yet but it will be up soon, you should go read about it. It’s got some interesting things, in it we talked about Sound of Silver, which is one of their foundationally important albums. But what I wanted to highlight in this- because I’ve been listening to a lot of them- I wanted to highlight a song from their 2010 album called This is Happening. It’s definitely their most popular song, called “Dance Yrself Clean”. It’s this really cool… It’s a 9 minute song, which I love and I know that other people don’t, but I enjoy stuff like that. Ya, know, LCD Soundsystem is this dance-punk, I think is their genre? Which sounds like insufferable, but once you hear them it kinda makes sense. Ashley actually described them really well, that they’re making dance music with punk instruments.
A: Mhm.
D: And this is a really like more synth heavy song, but it has this almost 3 minutes of light vocals and hand percussion and stuff like that. Then at the 3 minute mark it drops into this really cool electronic style beat, kinda thing. We’re going to listen to that drop right now, so this is “Dance Yrself Clean” by LCD Soundsystem.
(clip of “Dance Yrself Clean” by LCD Soundsystem plays
Lyrics: Ah, ah, ah, ah)
B: So I’ve been working a lot lately, and we have an AUX cable at Pizza Schmizza, so I’ve been blasting-
D: Let’s give Pizza Schmizza some free advertising.
B: I’ve been blasting Agent Orange’s Living in Darkness album. And it’s from the 70’s, it’s like surf punk. It’s hella sick.
A: Sounds cool.
B: My favorite track of this album is “A Cry For Help In a World Gone Mad”. So here ya go.
(clip of “A Cry for Help in a World Gone Mad” by Agent Orange plays
Lyrics: Sometimes I think of old friends
But they all seem the same
Then I see them and they can't remember my name
I guess I'm just like them
I guess I'm just a bore
I could hate them but I've never done that before
I've got lots of good friends
I don't need anymore)
D: Fantastic. Well, Ashley, it’s been really great having you on the show. Thanks for coming, thanks for sharing, educating us on a ton of covers and stuff like that.
B: Thanks for comin’.
A: It’s been awesome, yeah. Thanks for having me.
B: Thanks for giving us the jingles.
A: You know it. I want a royalty on those, though.
D: Yeah, sorry, you can send us a bill, because we’re not paying you or anything.
(lo fi outro music plays)
B: That wraps up the Out of Phase podcast by PSPS. Once again, I am Beto Carrasco.
D: And I’m Drew Haevner.
B: And we’d like to thank our guest Ashley one more time for being here, and taking the time to talk to us today. Alright.
D: See ya later. (fuckboy voice) This is Bruce, signing off. This is my DJ persona.
Out of Phase Episode 5 : Megatron the Bird
Out of Phase Episode 5 : Megatron the Bird
Drew: Do they now though? I don’t really think they continue to.
Rhian: No, I don’t think they do now, I think they’ve been socially pressured into it. But anyway, I think this has really interesting implications for like how much power record labels have to control the image of their musicians and how powerless the musicians are to resist it.
Drew: Right, I mean a record deal is essentially selling your soul, to my understanding, like you, you forfeit control of a lot of things to become like an artist on a label.
Rhian: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, that’s the end of my story. Um... I just wanted to share that!
Drew: What a fun time
Rhian: Haha yeah
Beto: Haha I love that
Drew: A fun happy tim----Yeah no that’s-that’s really cool! I didn’t---A., I didn’t know that Hollywood Records owned the distribution rights for them cus I just don’t know a ton about Queen and I also didn’t know Disney was, like, actively subversive to his image while he was dying, which feels---when you put it in that context, right? Like actively trying to subvert an image of a gay man while that gay man is dying is--
Rhian: Yeah
Drew: ---like, kinda despicable (laughs).
Rhian: A little bit, yeah
Drew: Only a little bit, like even if it was after he was dead it might have been a little bit better, right? Like at least---
Rhian: Mmmhm
Drew: Not even, no. Not really all that much better. At all.
Rhian: Yeah
Drew: It’s just...it’s a shame.
Rhian: It is. Um... yeah and then like if you want other examples of things like this, like think about Kesha and the way that she was marketed for the first big part of her career.
Drew: Yeah
Beto: Oh yeah
Rhian: And versus how she’s marketed now, that she has more control over herself.
Drew: She’s marketed as a complete badass now.
Rhian: Exactly.
Drew: Which is fantastic cus, seems like she is---
Rhian: Yeah uh like country music, Dolly Parton, badass.
Drew: Yeah she (sighs) she’s cool. I don’t really, I’ve never really listened to Kesha but she was on a show that I was watching. She’s cool. She seems cool. Yeah it’s just like, I feel like, I don’t know---you’re right. Record labels seem to have, or not even record labels, but like production entities, broadly speaking, have so much control over what the iconography is. And like, in Kesha’s case, she was branded as like a---slut!
Rhian: Yeah
Drew: And that’s weird that that was the image they went for in my opinio--, I mean it clearly was like, incredibly popular. Well, contextually and very briefly incredibly popular.
Rhian: Mmhm and popular in I feel like younger audiences. Which is weird that they continue to do that.
Drew: Right, I remember Kesha being really popular in middle school
Rhian: Yeah, me too
Drew: When she was talking about like drinking---wh-what is the line, you, I wake up brush my teeth with a bottle of Jack?
Rhian: Yes.
Drew: (Laughing) Like why?? Why is that the image you’re going with? Cuz it doesn’t---and it’s interesting too, cuz like, at the time I was like “Ohh Kesha’s crazy!” And now it just seems like why’d you write that? Like did you write that or did you just take part in it?
Rhian: Mmhm yeah. Uh the other thing I wanted to bring up was that this was the way the U.S. handled it.
Drew: Right
Rhian: Disney bought the rights to Queen’s distribution in the U.S.. As far as I know, um, what’s that record label in the UK that starts with a P?
Drew: Parlaphone---
Rhian: ---Yes. As far as I know, Parlaphone in the UK didn’t do anything like this. They didn’t care.
Drew: Yeah, Parlaphone’s a really really massive entity to my understanding. They own the rights to like a lot of people (laughs). I don’t know, Beto maybe you know a little bit more about that but my understanding is that Parlaphone is like the end all be all record label in the UK.
Beto: I have no idea about Parlaphone. I’ve like heard of like one UK record company and that’s like Domino’s and--- (laughs). Domino's Pizza. Domino
(All laughing)
Rhian: Produces music and pizza
Drew: Domino’s Pizza & Record Label!
(All Laugh)
Beto: No like Domino’s did the Arctic Monkeys first album I think, that’s all I know.
Something that I was thinking about about like record industries and images, cuz it kinda ties into like my segment a little bit. I was like a big fan of The Growlers when I was in high school and um like they changed a lot over the last few years. Basically they got involved with uh---what’s his face? Oh my god. Nayeli’s about to be so mad at me. Um…
Drew: Who?
Beto: Julian Casablancas
Rhian: Ohhh
Drew: Oh my god.
Beto: Right, so when I went to Beach Goth 4, it was really cool to see them um sing together. They like performed together, The Growlers and Julian Casablancas. J-Julian Casablancas! (pronunciated). They like sang a cover of The Doors’ like “People are Strange”. Which was, fuckin sick---
Drew: That’s fantastic.
Beto: Yeah, it was fantastic! And then I was like man, like these guys are about to blow up. I like thought it to myself you know. Cuz after that, and it turns out that like yeah, um, like The Growlers ended up getting produced by Julian Casablancas right after that. And he definitely switched up their image real quick. Real quick and like ya know.
Drew: Yeah because now you know they’re California Arctic Monkeys.
Beto: Now they’re the California Arctic Monkeys, yeah. And it’s just kind of like damn. Cuz it’s-it’s interesting. I’m not, you know I’ll power to The Growlers, like do whatever you want. But like low-key, they hella switched up.
Drew: Now uhh---Beto’s gonna tell us a little bit about a genre that---that he calls, and I-I guess it’s just what it’s called, uh, Beach Goth. What is that? (Laughs) What that Beto?
Beto: (Laughs---chortles?--heh heh heh) So---(still laughing) Um---I don’t even know what to sa---how to describe it. So it’s like a term coined or like made popular by like the music scene in like Orange County in like So-Cal California. And it’s like very popular, er it was like made more popular or like, or like embedded or like---ya like embedded I think would be a good word to use. Like with-with like the band The Growlers cuz they became, they started to call their music and the artists around them or like the music surrounding them, uh ya know, Beach Goth. And---
Drew: It’s kind of a like---it’s kind of a like Beach Boys meet The Cure a little bit.
(Beto laughing)
Drew: Like not--not entirely! Like, that’s not entirely emblematic of it, but like it’s a similar, it’s like a surfy and also like spooky.
Beto: Yeah, I-I would say, I would say like like, what I would, what makes sense to me is like this band came up to Portland, I saw them in a basement. Um they were from San Diego and they used the term ‘Post-Surf’ and that shit hit. I was like, that makes sense.
Drew: Interesting!
(Rhian laughs)
Beto: Yeah I was like that----
Drew: Post-Surf, yeah.
Beto: Yeah it’s like this revival of I would call it like other bands vary, so I can’t it’s not like a fair, like I-I can’t group it all. It’s just this genre. But it’s like I would, I would describe it as a revival of surf, of surf rock, surf punk, where The Growlers have like Americana, like cowboy music, you know? And this like---
(Rhian and Drew laughing)
Drew: Like cowboy music
Beto: Yeah! Cowboy music, like Americana yeah like western cowboy music you know?
Drew: I know, I know what you mean.
(Beto laughs)
Drew: I just love the term cowboy music---
Beto: Yeah
Drew: ---instead of like Amer-
Drew+Beto: Americana
Beto: Um and this like blend of this like uh gothy post-punk thing. You know, which is-- which is dope. Which is sick. And it’s like really popular over in like Orange County and I have family over there and I’ve gotten to experience a bit of the music down there while I’ve been over there, um it’s like really, really awesome community from what I’ve experienced when I’ve been there. Uh there’s a lot of like local record shops that are very involved with the artists around there. A great one to shout out would be like Burger Records. I’ve been to their shop---
Drew: Oh I know about burger records as like a Portlandite---Portlander--Portlandite
(Beto laughs)
Beto: Yeah! And they like produce tapes maybe even like vinyls? I’m not sure, uh but I’ve been to the shop and I’ve picked up a tape from one of my favorite bands called Corners. Yeah and it’s awesome, I actually got to experience like one of the, The Growlers hosted a show---or I think they still host it now, this festival called Beach Goth. And I got to attend the third one back in 2014.
Drew: Oh wow they’ve been doing it awhile.
Beto: They’ve been doing it for a long time, yeah. And it’s a cool story, well it’s not that cool, it’s cool to me, uh I like missed----
(Drew Laughs)
Beto: ----I really got into The Growlers and they were gonna play in Portland and I was like “Ohhh holy shit, they’re gonna play?!!” And I was like “Let me buy my ticket!” And they were sold out and I was so ANGEE (LOL). I threw my phone at the door and I was like daaaaamn! You know? (Beto Laughs).
Drew: This is a really cool story Beto (laughing).
Beto: And then----
(Rhian and Drew laughing)
Beto: And then I was going to California [the] next week and then I was like ahh (sighs) what am I gonna do? I just don’t wanna like do nothing while I’m there, and then I saw that The Growlers were hosting Beach Goth 3 and it was so fuckin cheap it was like 60 dollars to go to see all of these bands---
Drew: Woah for a festival?
Rhian: Whaaat
Beto: I know-I know! And I was like what the hell? I’m gonna see The Growlers in their own like hometown? Like that’s sick as fuck-- that’s sick as fuck. So I was like I’m on it, I’m on it. And I went, and I got introduced to all of this music I had never---like, it didn’t occur to me that music could be this cool. Like I think, I-I like thank the Growlers and like that California scene for a lot of my like inspiration or like motivation to do, to be in music now. Like I had no idea that like music could be this like cool community, this cool visual aspect, these cool sounds, this cool everything. I mean, if you guys wanted to check out what i’m talking about why i think it's so cool, you could check out like Burger Records. They documented Beach Goth 3 and it’s like an awesome video um of this like scene, this like beach goth vibe or whatever. But um I’m like sitting here talking to you about how cool it is but you don’t even know what it sounds like.
(Beto laughs, Rhian laughs)
Beto: You know, so we could just start off with The Growlers. We can listen to One Million Lovers
(“One Million Lovers” by The Growlers playing)
Lyrics:
One million lovers to choose from but none like her
The only one for sure
One million lovers to choose from but none like her
The only one for sure
Beto: Yes! There you go, and you kind of hear that, I would call it like psychedelic, like that little old-timey like Americana feel. I don’t even, is that Americana?? Have you listened to it?
Drew: It’s a little bit, yeah. I think that they, I think that the genre has this like little tiny bit of Americana um which, is way more endemic in Shannon and The Clams than The Growlers but I think all of them do to some extent.
Beto: Yeah, it’s funny you mention Shannon and The Clams. When I first saw them, I saw them at Beach Goth but they weren’t playing their songs, they were covering Metallica (Beto laughs)
Drew: That’s so good! They’re so, I saw---
(Drew and Beto laughing)
Drew: I saw Shannon and the Clams open for----uhhh oh my god why am I blanking we just talked---
Beto: The Black Keys!
Drew: The Black Keys! Wow I’m dumb.
(Beto and Rhian laughing)
Drew: Yeah I saw them open for them and Modest Mouse a couple months ago and they’re really funny they’re like big Blazers fans apparently and we were in uh, we were at the Rose Quarter and I was like-- it’s cool. (Drew laughs)
Beto: It is cool that’s funny
Drew: Yeah their lead singer, she’s really funny too.
Beto: Ah huh, I got to see them here in Portland too though, which was awesome. Yeah, and that’s The Growlers, that’s what they sound like, they’ve evolved their sound a lot now. You can go ahead and look up some of their new stuff on your own time. But um, well like another great band--- ok yeah, well I mean let’s just ride off that train! So this is like the, the surf, surf revival, a great example of that surf revival would be Shannon and the Clams. That like 50s doo-wop, 60s like you know and I mean you could just listen to Ozma. You know, listen to this:
(“Ozma” by Shannon and the Clams plays).
Lyrics:
I see you in my dreams
You’ve regrown all your teeth
You’re sniffing flowers all day long and laying in the sun
Beto: Like listen to those drums! Um (laughs) Yeah no that’s an old-timey vibe. I say old-timey like it’s like black and white ya know (laughs).
Drew: It’s old-timey from ya know like seven years ago---well that’s quite a while
Beto: It’s getting old (laughs) it’s getting old
Drew: Sh-Shannon and the Clams is like if doo-wop went hard (laughs).
Beto: Hmmm
Drew: Which is really cool. I-I really enjoy I, they were like new to me when I saw them a couple months ago and I saw them perform and I was like “I love them, they’re fantastic”. They-they they do the, they give me the same energy that Arctic Monkeys does where it’s like ohh you’re pulling on so many cool influences that I’m familiar with and like I eat that up, it’s fantastic.
Beto: Oh yeah definitely. And that’s like, I mean I guess we’ve covered the Americana, this is like a little surf revival. To get that like gothy thing I’m talking about, I think like Corners is like right up my alley, like my niche, it’s like, it covers like my favorite things about like surf, like surf, punk, and then post-punk. Like that like gothy, synth, synthy, synthy shit.
Drew: The moment I started listening to the track you sent us, I was like “Oh yeah, no this makes sense.
(Beto Laughs)
Drew: ...this makes a lot of sense why Beto likes this”.
Beto: So I mean look, if you love The Cure, or like Joy Division
Drew: Like all the stuff we talked about last week.
Beto: So reverb, some reverb, soaked leads…
Drew: Some reverb? How about only reverb (Both laugh)
Beto: Check out Corners, “Love Letters”
(Love Letters by Corners plays)
Lyrics
(Punky-surfy Instrumental)
Beto: Corners, Beach Goth 4, I finally got to see them. Honestly the sweatiest pit I’ve ever been to, I would do it again and again. Uh that band is great. That band is amazing. Uh one of my favorites for sure. Uh, 10/10, would do again.
Drew: Wow, 10/10.
Beto: 10/10 yeah. Yeah, that’s-that’s Beach Goth! It was, it was great. Um, introduced me to most of what I listen to now and has helped me explore more, more thingies, I mean I saw Dive there, that’s like one of my favorite bands currently. You know I was like wow that’s- that’s crazy.
Drew: It’s a really really cool niche. It’s like not my niche, to the extent that it is yours Beto, but I really enjoy all of, like I’m familiar with Growlers and I like Shannon and the Clams. It’s just not like, it’s not the niche that I occupy but I-it’s--it’s really cool. I think it’s one of those things where like if you’re a fan of stuff from the 60s and 70s it’s something you would probably enjoy, especially if you’re one of those people that happens to fit in the cross-section of I like the Beach Boys or like doo-wop or stuff like that and I also really like punk or post-punk or new-wave, like it-it’s a cool intersection of things that I wouldn’t have thought existed.
Beto: It’s like that song Loveletters, it’s like loveletters to those genres. Like these bands love the old music.
Drew: Yeah!
Rhian: Yeah
Drew: It’s a genre that exists solely in acknowledgement of their predecessors, and I, as someone who loves to look at linearity in music, adore that. Things that so clearly echo and make known what their influences are--I-I enjoy.
Beto: Yeah.
Drew: This is sort of tangential but is also why I’ve always loved Grouplove, because Grouplove to me is incredibly, incredibly full of acknowledgment for The Pixies. Who we WILL confront on this podcast---
Beto: We WILL!
Drew: -because they’re my favorite band!
(Beto laughs)
Drew: We will confront The Pixies! (Laughs)
Rhian: (Laughs) That sounds really funny out of---
Drew: We will fight them
Rhian: ---context
(Laughs)
Drew: I have this shirt
Rhian: We will fight the fairies (laughs)
Drew: Their first compilation album is called Death to the Pixies and I have a “Death to the Pixies” shirt and I one time was in a Starbucks and this dude was like “What do you have against The Pixies?” And I was like “It’s an..album of theirs…” (Laughs) It was just like uhhh okay. No but it’s why I enjoy bands that are like that, that pay homage to their inspiration. I find it cool.
Beto: Hmm yeah, yeah.
Drew: Beach goth is like that in crystallized form.
Beto: One last thing about Beach Goth I should, I forgot to mention...I’ve never seen so many like Latinx people at fuckin, a show. Like ne--, like at rock shows. It’s like being here, you know it’s not like they’re not here, but dude I felt good, it was tight.
Drew: That’s interesting
(Beto Laughs)
Drew: Especially because I know that Shannon and the Clams are mostly white..?
Beto: They, most of the artists are, most of the artists are.
Drew: Interesting, that, that’s interesting. It feels like it’s like a really Southern California inspire--
Beto: It is!
Drew: --aesthetic--
(Beto laughs)
Drew: and I wonder if it just kind of like binds people together--
Beto: Yeah
Drew: --through a sense of being Southern Californian.
Beto: Yeah
Drew: Cuz I feel great when I listen to it, I feel like I wanna go live in Southern California when I listen to it.
Beto: No, I mean like at Beach Goth 3, when the Growlers performed--like they were like the last performance of the night you know? They opened up like their song “Gay Thoughts” with the whole like Mariachi. Like--
(Drew laughs)
Beto: Like full mariachi, it’s dope you should check out the video.
(Rhian laughs)
Beto: It’s honestly awesome
Rhian: That’s cool
Drew: That’s fantastic because I very much enjoy mariachi
Beto: No it was awesome, they were, they were cool. Yeah a lot of people like them, I guess. That’s why I can’t hate them, I mean I don’t listen to them as much but I’m like yeah, you guys were cool.
Drew: So now we’re gonna turn to our favorite little final segment. What are we, what are we listening to? Beto, I’m gonna let you start. What are you, what are you listening to?
Beto: Dude, I don’t even know how I got there but I, so there’s this band Armor, and it’s like hardcore punk, I don’t know what to call it, I just call it hardcore.
Drew: Sure
Beto: They’re sick and from then on I went to, I went down the rabbit hole so I’ve been listening to Armor, Some Kind of War, and then there’s the Negative Approach EP and then Poison Idea EP and it's like all the same genre.
Drew: This is sooo like unflinchingly hardcore iconography
Beto: Yeah, (laughs) but something cool Poison Idea, I didn’t even realize it, I’m glad the YouTube algorithm is working though, cuz um Poison Idea apparently is from Portland, Oregon from like the 80s.
Drew: Oh woah
Beto: Yeah they’re like this hardcore band and they’re sick
Rhian: Oh wow really
Beto: Yeah I was like you guys are sick and then I looked them up on Wikipedia and I was like “No wayyy!” I was like no way I was like it’s crazy and now I can see why there’s still a lot of hardcore here.I can see that now.
Drew: Yeah
Beto: Yeah
Drew: Yeah the-the identity of the city is-is hardcore.
Beto: Yeah
Drew: Uh you wanna play a clip of any of that stuff?
Beto: Yeah dude, let’s do, let’s do Poison Idea, just the first song on Pick Your King EP.
(“Think Twice” by Poison Idea plays)
Lyrics
Stand on both feet, hold my own
No gun, no way to make a mark
Impressed, obsessed with people dying.
No choice for you, good deaths a blessing
Open wide and take your poison
Count your blessings before you lose them
I might be mad about the way things are turning out
(Fading out)
Drew: So I, ironically enough, have been listening to Alt-J.
(Laughs)
Drew: Because of the conversation last week I was like shit I wanna listen to Alt-J, they’re still good. Um, and I, I came back to. Alt-J is one of those bands that I don’t know if they’re one of my favorite bands, I think they are. But they’re just cool. I, one of the things that draws me to their music and other music that I really enjoy is because I don’t know how they wrote it and I don’t understand their thought process. And I don’t understand anything about it and that intrigues me. That’s also why I love The Pixies, cuz I’m just like, why are you writing about this man’s large penis, The Pixies? Very weird choice, um it’s a good song (laughs).
(Rhian laughs)
Drew: That’s not anything to do with Alt-J uh, so I’ve been listening to An Awesome Wave, which is their 2012 album. Alt-J is by the way (spells Alt-J). It’s the Windows command for the delta symbol which is like a triangle and they really like triangles, they sing about triangles a lot cuz they’re weird. But yeah they’re like a British band. They got really popular with their song “Breezeblocks” which I gave you a beautiful cover of last week. Um it was like really popular for a number of years. Still one of those things like also Arctic Monkeys that you still hear on the radio. But what I really wanted to highlight this week was their song on the same album An Awesome Wave called “Bloodflood” which is all one word, Bloodflood. Uh it’s a weird one. It’s one which I guess they made a sequel to on a later album. There’s a Bloodflood I think Pt. 2 on a later album of theirs.
But we’re gonna listen to a little bit of Bloodflood.
(Alt-J’s Bloodflood plays)
Lyrics
(Children saying “Good morning flood of blood, good morning everyone”)
Drew: Yeah I really like that song, I really like that album. I think that Alt-J is like really cool and I don’t get them and I don’t get what they’re doing and I don’t get what that album’s about and that’s kinda why I like it. Yeah, they’re strange, I like strange-strange ones like that. Uhh Rhian what are you listening to?
Rhian: Well, I’m actually gonna talk about Miniature Tigers and TV Girl, they’re just, I haven’t really been listening to a lot of like morbid stuff lately, I really like to keep it light these days--
Drew: Really?! Why???
Rhian: (Chuckles) I know, gee golly, but Miniature Tigers has been one of my favorite bands since like middle school. Which is funny because I only like one of their albums, all of their other music, I don’t like. But, Tell it to the Volcano is a great album, it’s like really light indie rock, not super heavy or anything like that, not super heavy instrumentation-wise. But Tell it To the Volcano is like, a pretty short album. It flows together so well, and here’s a clip from the first song on the album “Cannibal Queen”
(Cannibal Queen by Miniature Tigers plays)
Lyrics
Coming for your heart like a cannibal
Oh she let’s me right in and I’m fed till I’m full
If something goes wrong I’m accountable
Oh, a life without her is no life at all
I la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la love you, Cannibal Queen.
Drew: I will say, in looking at the tracklisting for Tell it to the Volcano. This is some of the most like indie-rock named (laughs) song titles.
Rhian: I know, isn’t it great! Looks at their other albums, even worse
Drew: Here’s my song “Tchaikovsky and Solitude”.
Beto: Ew.
(Rhian laughs).
Drew: Not here to trash
Rhian: “Dino Damage” (laughs)
Drew: --I don’t know anything about them. Hot venom is a very good name for a song.
(Both laugh)
Rhian: Hot Venom was in the movie Easy A
Beto: Ooo
Drew: I’ve not seen the film
Rhian: Is it Emma Stone, probably made for TV? TV Girl the album French Exit is just really good, I listen to it while I clean the house. It’s just a good upbeat album.
Drew: Nice, we need upbeat music now.
Rhian: Yeah
Drew: It’s really nice, I find myself listening to a lot of like odd-sounding or depressing sounding music. Just cuz, I don’t know--
Beto: Me too
Drew: It’s just the music I’m drawn too and BOY HOWDY is that fun right now
I don’t know Beto what are you also--
Rhian: Mmmhmm
Drew: --at that place where like I’m sad right now and don’t to listen to more sad music
Beto: No dude, sad music is always good.
Drew: That’s a good point, there’s something cathartic about it I think
Beto: Yeah, I’m always like oh man I feel all these feelings, glad i’m still alive
Drew: Glad I’m still alive. Yep, we’re all glad we’re still alive. You know what else I’m really glad for? That Rhian you were able to join us this week. Thanks for coming on. It was really cool to have you. Really cool story about Queen. Very fascinating
Beto: Yeah, hell yeah. I loved that.
Rhian: Thank you. It was really great being here!
Beto: That wraps up our podcast for today, this was Out of Phase brought to you by PSPS. I’m Beto Carrasco,
Drew: And I as always, am Drew Havnaer
(Laughs)
Beto: Mmmhm. We’d like to thank our wonderful guest Rhian for being here with us today
Drew: Thanks Rhian
Rhian: You’re welcome
Beto: And we’ll catch you next time
Drew: Catch ya on the “flippy-dip”
(All say in valley girl accents): Byeeeee
Out of Phase Episode 6 : Drew the Floor Eater
Out of Phase Episode 6 : Drew the Floor Eater
Drew: I lived in Broadway my sophomore year and it is also similarly small but it’s like---
Alex: Yeah
Drew: ---built like a fuckin hallway!
Alex: Yeah that’s what it is (laughs)
Drew: Yeah it sucks so bad and also concrete floors are like the least...um...I almost said
appetizing which is really upsetting----
Alex: (laughs)
Drew: ----And that’s not what I meant.
(All laugh)
(Overlapping chatter about floors)
Drew: I’m dReW the FloOr EaTer
(More laughs)
...Intro music fades...
Drew: Hello everyone and welcome back to um Out of Phase presented by Portland State
Professional Sound. Uh, I am as always, your host Drew Havnaer
Beto: And I’m Beto Carrasco
Drew: And this week we have a very special guest uh, former Portland State Professional
Sound employee and my-my good friend Alex Zegarnick. How’s it going Alex? Did I say your
last name right? I just realized I should have confirmed that.
Alex: You said it perfectly.
Drew: Fantastic!
Alex: You said it perfectly!
Drew: We all got to a point where we called you Zeg instead of making the attempt
Alex: Yeah, I think everybody had that experience in their life, had a very cool, catchy nickname
in middle school because nobody could pronounce my name
Beto: Let’s hear it
Alex: Oh no you don’t wanna hear it
Drew: (Laughs) Is it a Russian swear?
Alex: No-no it’s not a Russian swear it’s a nazi reference.
Drew: Oh ok, no we don't wanna hear it
(Chatters and laughs)
Drew: Yikes. No when I took over as staff manager, I had access to everyone’s google calendar
and you know in google you can see the sidebar basically with everyone’s name listed on it.
And the previous, my predecessor had had everyone’s name in there so you’d see like Drew
Havnaer, Roberto Carrasco... and then Alex Z. (laughs)
Alex: Mmhm
Drew: I am 100% that it’s because he didn’t bother to look up your last name.
Alex: Uh yeah I just do not care. I mean that’s how kids at work call me, they call me Mr. Z
because they can’t pronounce my name.
Drew: Right. My last name is bordering on that but it’s not as complex in spelling and also
doesn’t sound as foreign almost, but you know.
Alex: Mmhm
Drew: Anyway, Alex we just essentially brought you on and bullied you about your last name so
far which is really nice. (Laughs)
Alex: Thank you, I like that, I like that a lot, thank you
Drew: (Laughs) You’re welcome. So what are you, what did you, what did you do when you
worked for PSPS?
Alex: When I worked for PSPS, I started of course just as a sound tech, but then slowly but
surely progressed to the role of the lead audio-technician. And I did some gigs. That’s what I
was doing
Drew: You were-- you did some work.
Alex: (Laughs)
Drew: You know, I plugged some things in correctly. We like, I feel like 9 times out of 10 (and I
say 9/10, this being our sixth recording). So that’s not even accurate. Pretty much everyone has
been like said some sort of variant of “I plug things in” or “I lift things that are heavy” which is
beautiful.
Alex: Mmhm, oh no, if they did that, I’ve done all of those things.
(Laughs)
Drew: I did those first
Alex: Yes
Drew: Um, what are you, and what are you doing now? Now that you’ve---cuz you graduated in
the fall, right?
Alex: Yeah, I graduated in the fall of last year and I have become a counselor at a mental health
facility in Beaverton.
Drew: So yeah he graduated with a bachelor’s degree in psychology right?
Alex: That’s right
Drew: Do you have a minor in anything?
Alex: Uh no I did not have a minor, actually my-my interest in psychology started as a minor,
because I was a computer science major. But after computer science major deliberately kicked
my butt, I uh---
Drew: (Laughs)
Alex: I went full time psychology, yeah.
Drew: I didn’t actually even know that. And you also have a degree in music technology right?
Alex: I do have an associate’s degree in music tech., which is why I decided to apply for this job
in the first place.
Drew: Sweet, so what kind of like music do you listen to? What’s your like background in music
and stuff like that?
Alex: uhhh god, I listen to all things, basically, but my primary um driver is metal music. So I
listen to a lot of Iron Maiden, I listen to a lot of speed metal and uh, what do they call it? Ah,
gosh, um power metal, like you know, dragon force. I listen to a lot of pop music, but not new
pop music, like the older stuff because it makes me sound cool when I talk about it.
Drew: I’m so cool. I listen to old pop music.
Beto: Oh god (laughs)
Alex: Like I literally have a playlist on Spotify--
Beto: Britney Spears
Alex: No not even that, we’re not even going there. I have a--
Drew: Britney Spears is amazing
Alex: I have a Spotify playlist called “Remember 1986” which is all of the pop music hits of 1986.
(Laughs)
Beto: Alright. I can get behind that.
Drew: Beautiful
Alex: It’s my guilty pleasure and I am being mocked by the children for that--anyway (laughs)
Drew: You know, I’ve never actually asked you this, I don’t actually know this about you, the rest
of these things have been completely leading questions for the sake of the narrative form of a
podcast but--
Alex: Sure
Drew: Why did you pursue a degree in music technology to begin with? Cuz I don’t know that
Alex: Oh why? Because that’s something I really enjoyed. I kind of like, I think, okay so...I
wanted to become a singer for a very long time initially, right? But what happened with that is
that uh after a few singing classes in my college, I uh, Foothill College represent by the way
(laughs), I uh started developing a lot of performance anxiety and figured this was probably not
a field for me. So I wanted to do something related to that so like music production and such, so
I started writing music using midi instruments in ProTools and such and that kept working and I
started mixing and mastering more and then eventually I graduated because all of it was
complete and hey! There it is, the degree!
Drew: (Laughs) You at a certain point were just like ‘fuck I’m done!’
Beto: The degree! (Laughs)
Alex: Yes, yes! (Laughs) Oh wait! I have no more money to do this and I’m about to leave this
place.
Drew: Amazing
Beto: Damn
Alex: Oh well, that time went by fast
Drew: I-I really thought, and the two of you probably saw me trying to stifle my laughter, I
thought you were gonna say “I wanted to be a singer and then after a couple of classes realized
I wasn’t a very good singer.
Alex: (Laughs)
Drew: And I was like I feel that on an emotional level.
Alex: Oh oh no, I’m still a pretty good singer not to brag right there I just don’t want to do that is
all
Drew: That’s fair. Yeah performance anxiety does make it a little bit difficult to be you know, a
performer.
Alex: Mmmhm
Beto: Yeah
Drew: Uh yeah, let’s start talking about our first thing, we’re gonna talk about, like as always
you’re gonna come to my nostalgia corner
Nostalgia Corner Jingle plays
Drew: I don’t know if the editors have been leaving in all the random bullshit we do where we
talk about the same for this segment.
(Laughs)
Drew: I hope they do cuz it’s funny to me but maybe not, who knows. So this week, we’re talking
about a song that is, I think breaking the mold of what we’ve been doing. I know that Beto and I
are primarily alternative and classic rock people. Not like classic rock, but like alternative rock
from all ages. And uh, Alex mentioned that to me and I was like you know what, let’s do
something a little bit different so this week we’re talking about a song called “Blame it On the
Boogie” by The Jacksons. Uh, which is a band that I know very little about, and a song that I
know very little about, until I researched it today, and it is one of the weirdest and funniest things
that I’ve come across in doing this show for the last couple of months. So The Jacksons if the
two of you don’t know, are uh The Jackson 5. It’s the same band, they just eventually started
going by The Jacksons instead of The Jackson 5. And this was when Michael Jackson was
about 20 so, you know The Jackson 5 started when he was a lot younger, when he was like a
kid. So it progressed for a while. This song is on their album called destiny from 1978 and it’s
the opening track, and it’s a disco song, which is one of the reasons why anyone who knows me
might be like, this is an interesting choice for you, cuz I don’t really like disco all that much, it’s
not really my genre of music. I don’t know if my coworkers are going to give me shit for that but
whatever. Um, so the Jackson 5, sorry the Jacksons, see like I said they’re the later form of the
Jackson 5. And it’s uh for those that don’t know, me being one of them, it consists of Jackie,
Tito, Jermaine, Marlin, and Michael Jackson. Um, I really don’t know a lot about Michael
Jackson, or The Jackson 5, but I don’t know, do either of you?! (Laughs) No?
Beto: Uh.
Alex: No, I don’t know a lot
Drew: This should be a very profound discussion then.
Beto: Laughs
Alex: Would you like me to give you the brief description of my understanding of Michael
Jackson?
Drew: Yeah, what do you know about Michael Jackson?
(laughs)
Alex: So I think all of my knowledge about him ends at about 2011 or whenever he died uh
(laughs)
Beto: Mmm
Drew: Sure
Alex: Because for me it was basically like this, oh here’s a man with a very high voice, and my
parents and teacher let me know he used to be black and I was like “Huh, I did not know that!”
(Laughs)
Alex: A lot of jokes surrounding it culturally because you know in Russia we’re very white
Drew: Oh sure
Alex: And then he died and I never really listened to him a lot so.
Drew: Yeah I also don’t know a ton about Michael Jackson, um this’ll be an interesting
discussion.
(Laughs)
Drew: So this song was originally, ok, who do you think wrote this song? This is my fun little
game hour that we’re gonna do you think wrote this song
Alex: Their dad
Drew: No
Alex: Oh ok, Michael wrote it?
Beto: His dad?
Drew: Hold on, Michael Jackson did write this song. Michael Jackson the white British
songwriter who’s not Michael Jackson of the Jackson 5! Yeah!
Alex: Wait what?!
Drew: Yeah this song was written, wait no sorry not written, this song was originally recorded by
a man named Michael Jackson.
Beto: That’s so weird
Drew: I know! He-He, and for the purposes of this, and also the way that it’s usually referred to,
people usually call him Mick Jackson, but his name is Michael George Jackson, and he is a
British or German, I don’t know, most of the things I saw said British but a couple things said
German, so we’re gonna call him British. Uh he sounds British in his recording anyway. This
song was originally recorded by him, it wasn’t written by him, I did mistakenly say it was written
by him. I believe his brother and someone else, I didn’t write that down which is unfortunate. But
this song was recorded in--sorry--it was released in 1978. And I don’t know if either of you
remember what year I also said the Jacksons version was released in, cuz it was also 1978. So
this was a cover that was released in the same year as the original.
Beto: Oh wow
Drew: Yeah, super bizarre, so the gist of what happened to my understanding is that these
people wrote this song. Mick Jackson made a version of it and somehow through the grapevine
the Jacksons’ manager heard it and was like oh we’re gonna do a cover of that song. Just cuz
they could. You know they’re powerful. I don’t think there was any bad blood there, I don’t think
there’s like any really negative animosity about this, I think it’s just more funny. Um so they were
recorded around the same time and they came out literally within weeks of each other because
people weren’t talking to each other about this, and uh on the UK charts, because the Mick
Jackson version of this was a UK release predominantly. They entered the charts on the same
day-like they started charting on the same day and Mick Jackson’s version eventually peaked at
number 15 on those UK charts, and the Jackson’s version of it peaked at number 8. Which is
fucking amazing. Like I--this is such an odd story to me that I just found out about, and the fact
that they both peaked around similar, literally on the same charts at the same time, peaking
around, I mean similarly right. And the Jacksons went on to be The Jacksons, we already knew
who they were they were already famous but you know they- Michael in particular became even
more famous after that. And Mick Jackson, this is like, that is his song. A one-hit wonder more
or less. Um and I listened to the other one too cuz of course I did, and it’s kind of more of a funk
song. It’s a little bit slower. It’s a little bit more like British-sounding. It’s not like British like really
in your face British music. But it does sound, it sounds whiter which is part of it. I mean, it’s a
white singer and it was an all white band. And it’s a little bit more like funk too, whereas The
Jacksons’ version is like clearly a disco song. So yeah, I’m not going to play clips of both of
these because it was really hard to find the Mick Jackson version. But here’s a here’s a clip of
The Jacksons’ version of “Blame it on the Boogie”.
...Blame it on the Boogie by The Jacksons plays...
Lyrics: “My baby’s always dancin’, and it wouldn’t be a bad thing, but I don’t get no lovin’ and
that’s no lie. We spent the night in ‘Frisco, at every kind of disco, from that night I kissed our
love goodbye.
Hook: But don’t blame it on the sunshine, don’t blame it on the moonlight, don’t blame it on the
good times, blame it on the boogie. X2”
Drew: (Vocalizing) Don’t blame it on the sunshine, don’t blame it on goodnight --I don’t know the
words---don’t blame it on good times, blame it on the boogie.
Um. You guys have any thoughts on this song...as a song?
Beto: I loved it.
Drew: You love this, oh fantastic
Beto: Yeah, I thought it was always a Michael Jackson song though,
I didn’t realize it was The Jacksons.
Drew: My understanding is The Jacksons were like, the end of The Jackson 5. Like, I don’t
really know that for certain. But that was always the impression that I got--
Beto: That makes sense
Drew: It’s cool, it’s one of those songs that like, once again I’m not like a Jackson 5 or Michael
Jackson fan, but it’s one of those songs that’s just good like it just, I was thinking about what I
was going to say about this while I made myself lunch and I was just singing the song to myself,
it’s just so like catchy and repeatable and I mean it’s like disco, it’s supposed to be that. But
yeah it’s just really, I just enjoy the song because it’s like upbeat and it’s fun and it’s catchy, and
that’s basically all my thoughts on it. What about you Alex?
Alex: Yeah I liked it! It’s not something, it’s not my go-to right?
Drew: Right
(Laughs)
Alex: But what do you call it, when I was working in the music school, which was also an
experience, I actually had to help a kid perform a Jackson 5, I think it was “I want you back”. So
I was in the backup vocals singing (Vocalizes) something like this, I don’t remember exactly how
the lyrics went, but I remember groovin’ to that stuff! (Laughs)
Drew: Yeah! Makes you wanna boogie. Blame it on the boogie.
Beto: Oh yeah
Drew: I don’t know what this song’s about and I didn’t really look into it. I don’t think it’s like an
important part of the conversation. And I could be totally wrong it’s just that that wasn’t what I
focused on. I was going to look into what the song was about and then I got so tied up into the
crazy, weird, funny story that precludes this song’s existence. But um, for me, this song is
notable in that, I mean like I said, anyone knows me would be like ‘that’s a weird song to have
picked for you’ to discuss as a nostalgia connection cuz I’m not like, I don’t really do disco. My
connection for this song stems from a really specific experience I have in my memory. Um, so a
little bit of background about me. In high school I spent a lot of my time in the theater
department there like as an actor. I was there for four years. I was the only senior actually in my
graduating class who had performed in every single show. There are a couple of people who
weren’t in like one or something for whatever reason they did something else, there was like a
scheduling conflict. So I ended up being the only one who acted in all of them and I also spent
two years more or less working on the technical side of stuff. Uh which is actually part of the
reason why I ended up applying here, is cuz I was like, I like doing this, I like music, these skills
are transferable. So I owe a lot of what I’m doing now, and what I’m interested in and who I am
to working in that theatre department. Acting was like the first thing that I ever really developed
a passion for. Which is cool because now I know what that feels like. And I know what it’s like to
want to give my all to something and be interested in it. And for a long time I wanted to do that
professionally and then I realized, I had a similar experience in which I realized, I’m not very
good at this. (Laughs) Not to say that that was your experience Alex but I was like, I’m fine, but I
can’t sing very well. I can sing fine, but I can’t dance at all. It’s really hard to make a living as a
professional actor if you can’t you know read music, and have classical training and dance as
well, and I just can’t really do any of those. But you know for a high schooler I was pretty good
at it. So I enjoyed doing it. Um so my junior year our like head of the department, our director
announced that he was retiring. It was kind of like a sta- like he was gonna be there the next
year doing a little bit but he was not going to be the head of the department anymore. And he is
a kind very wise, like laid back, chill dude. And so, we all really liked him so we were devastated
when he was, he was leaving so it was you know, like a sad experience. Um it was the best for
him clearly but it was rough. And just before my senior year I was doing some training and I was
in our auditorium and I happened to meet the person who was, who was filling that position for
my senior year. And you know, we got to talking and you know I liked her and and she seemed
like she was going to be a good replacement. And then over the course of that year I became
really close with this new director and I found myself kind of in a leadership position within like
this small community. I got to a point where I was like basically for a majority of things the like,
her like right hand man, like if something needed to happen, and it needed to be one of the
students that did it, like build this piece of a set or get someone to build this piece of a set. Or
get this person to do x or whatever, I was the person who did that. Along with a couple of other
people. There was a couple of us who were just like the fixers, that were like, “we’re gonna get
this shit done cuz it needs to get done” kind of a thing. Um and she also became kind of a
mentor to me which was also a new experience in my life. So it was a very important time in my
life and it was also very helpful because in the past this group had been kind of a host to, I wrote
down toxic but that seems unfair. Just like a group of teenagers in a theatre department who
weren’t always the nicest to each other, and I don’t wanna say toxic cuz these people are like
not bad people and they’re not currently bad people and like I still know some of them. Um and I
was a part of that group and we were not great and kind of shitty to people and that group kind
of disappeared because they didn’t like this new director, and I was one of the few people who
stayed on and uh I got the chance to like step up and be a leader and be a better person. And
learn how to like not, make fun of people and like genuinely try to be a good person. Um and it
also felt good because I ended up with this, this is when this is gonna start sounding braggy, but
I ended up with people who like looked up to me and that was also a new experience and
having that kind of connection, those kind of connections with people instead of negative
connections with people was something that was new to me and I realized that it was a much
better way to live my life. Um, so after I graduated, at the end of my freshman year of college,
um in the spring, I went back to watch the like end of the year
sketch-comedy/variety/whatever-the-fuck show like just weird, creative, clusterfuck that we had
done the year before and had since become like an annual thing. Um and going there, it was
really cool to see all these people cuz I hadn’t seen them in a while, and people were excited to
see me which was really like good for my emotional state after going through a freshman year
that was kind of rocky in terms of personal relationships, and the reason where this song comes
in, it isn’t just me talking about how cool I was in high school, cuz I fucking wasn’t, I was in the
theatre department, um, I got called up on stage during this show for one of these like
interactive bit whatever is because people saw that I was in the audience and were like you
have to get him because we wanna embarrass him kind of a thing.
(Laughs)
Drew: You know, ribbing kind of thing. And basically the short of it was that there were these
two people that pulled people up from the audience and it ended up being me and a buddy of
mine who also who like, was still at that school but couldn’t be in the show because she was
doing something else, who was a year younger than me and these people in like mime format
taught us this like simple dance with no music and no context and no communication other than
just showing me how to do it and I was like okay, whatever, I’m going to go along with this, and
eventually I realized that, and when I say I realized, I recognized when music started playing
that I was supposed to do a dance to this song with this group of people that appeared out of
nowhere, a bunch of people that I knew and was friends with and hadn’t seen in a long time and
performed with. And it was this song, it was this Jacksons song that I was like----so basically I’m
standing up on stage, having had a rough year in terms of personal relationships, with a group
of people I love and I know they love me, dancing in front of an audience of like a hundred
people, looking like a complete dipshit. But it was great! Like it was so dumb and so like fun to
do and also kind of embarassing but like it felt good to lean into that and like be around people
that I trusted in that way and also it felt good to perform with people because I like performing, I
always, I mean there’s a reason I volunteered to host this podcast, I enjoy performing for
people, um and it’s something I don’t get in this line of work anymore, but it was also like the last
time I got to--it was the last time that I was on a stage doing a performance. Like still to this day
like two or three years later, and it’s a, it’s just a good memory, like a little kind, positive memory,
which I think we need in this world of like, I remember this time when we were like connected
and it was fun and I felt loved and all of that kind of stuff. And this song, everytime I hear it
reminds me of that because it was a song that I did a silly mime dance to with a bunch of
teenagers one time and it sounds way better if I put it that way. (Laughs)
Alex: Makes a lot of sense!
Drew: Right yeah you know that entire convoluted, I was cool in a theatre department
Alex laughs
Drew:--and I like this song.
Alex: (Laughs) Said no one ever.
Drew: Right yeah no as I was writing this I was like is this gonna make me come off as pompous
trying to be like ‘oh I was cool cuz I was part of a theatre department’. And then I realized nooo.
I’m telling people about how I was like a high-ranking getter-done person in a theatre
department like ooo
Beto: That’s different
Drew: yeah in a high school theatre department
Beto: Nonetheless
Drew: Yeah right yeah really really cool. I love theatre, I’ll always love theatre, I wanna do it
again someday. But I can’t sing and I can’t dance anymore.
(Laughs)
Beto: So now we’ll pass it on to our guest, Alex and he’ll talk about why music makes us sad.
Alex: (Laughs) Hi, uh welcome to my Ted Talk. Uh (laughs). No uh so yeah it’s about why we
listen to sad music when we are ourselves, sad. So I guess I’ll give a little prelude to that. I am a
sad person, just in general
Drew: (Laughs) Good podcast material
Alex: No but okay seriously though I’ve been uh, I have been struggling with depression for a
very long time and it’s chronic and sometimes it’s you know it’s pretty bad and uh sometimes it’s
like this where I interact with people and do things.
Drew: Isn’t it nice
Alex: It is very nice when you’re able to do that. Yes indeed, um but yeah so of course one of
the main modes of relief is listening to music because I love music, music makes me feel good
anytime of day apart from the times when it’s music I do not understand or do not like. Like
something that I have been meeting at my job quite frequently recently is that the boys they are
allowed to request certain songs to be played on the speaker and there will be like a rap track
playing and it plays plays plays and the next rap track comes along and it sounds identical um
and they’ll be like “Oh dude look listen to this! This is good this is high quality, they tell me and
I’m like I don’t, I don’t know, I just have to believe you, maybe you are right.
Drew: You are such an old man
Alex: I am an old man
Drew: And it’s ok cuz I am too and I get it.
Alex: So uh yeah but uh getting back to the topic, listening to sad music makes you feel better.
Like I think everybody here and everybody who is listening had that experience where they’re
struggling with something they’re going through a depressive episode or they are just feeling
down and they turn on the radio or they set up their Discman or LP player or what have you.
Drew: Those are the only ways that you listen to music by the way
(Laughs)
Alex: Discman, LP, or radio, nothing else exists!
Drew: Well also 8-tracks, you know.
Alex: 8-tracks the most popular medium of music.
Drew: I’m surprised 8-tracks haven’t made a comeback the way cassettes have by the way.
Alex: yeah that is true. But in any case, you open your Spotify and here we go we found it. You
open your Spotify and for example I just have a playlist called Sad. This is where I put all of the
songs that make me feel, that make me kind of---I relate to the feeling of being sad. Like I have
a couple of songs prepared, I brought three tracks for you maybe to listen at some point. Some
of you may have heard it because these are pretty popular songs, apart from one which I can
almost bet neither of you have heard before because---
Drew: Absolutely not, no it was the weirdest experience.
Alex: Because it’s Russian, it is Russian and you’ve probably never heard it. Uh but the first
one, how do I say this, literally the first song on my playlist is called, it’s El Mañana by Gorillaz,
right.
...El Mañana by Gorillaz plays...
Alex: But yeah, so El Manana is the number one, I listen to it pretty much all the time. I relate to.
There’s been plenty of moments in my life, especially my early adolescence or maybe I would
even say young adult but I’m totally not you can hear that I’m past my young adulthood!
(Laughs)
Drew: You’re on the downward slope
Alex: Yeah everything is downhill from here. But yeah when I was a teenager in high school I
would listen to it a lot because I was a depressed little boy all the time so uh it helped me out a
lot. Then the next song um, not in the playlist but that I brought is don’t fear the reaper by the
Blue Oyster Cult.
...Don’t Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult plays...\
Drew: Is this song, I’ve never looked at the lyrics for this song, but I’ve heard it a lot. Is it about
not fearing death, cuz that seems like the very obvious...
Alex: So I’ll just give another one thing, is that most of my um, most of the songs on that list,
they have an overarching theme of loss or suicide, so the song Don’t Fear the Reaper is about
Suicide it’s about--
Drew: Ahh ok
Alex: It’s about a girl who broke up and she’s contemplating killing herself and she hears this
voice, “Hey don’t fear the reaper” and in the end she kills herself. That’s basically the song.
Drew: Ooo
Alex: Yeah so if you’ve never heard it before--
Drew: I didn’t know that!! Kind of a weird song for SNL to make a very popular skit about.
Alex: Yeah I guess so, yeah but the lyrics go “the curtains blew and the wind appeared-” then
something happened and then he appeared saying “Don’t be afraid” and she ran to him and
they started to fly. You know it’s-that’s the song.
Drew: Yeahhh
Alex: Because it’s basically death extending his hands saying don’t fear, baby take my hand,
like I will teach you to fly and such
Drew: sure yeah
Alex: That song I think, yeah I discovered it for myself 2018 I want to say because I started
having really strong depressive episodes at that time and I was listening to new stuff because
like nothing regular that I had was helping out anymore and I found that song and I really
connected with it because um for some reason it has this very specific tempo and the lyrics it
kind of like helps me transfer my sadness into sadness for the person in the song. And that’s
how it helps me, um yeah. And then the third song is by a brand named Sprained Leg which
sounds like a punk band or like a ska band
Drew: It totally does, that’s what I was expecting.
Alex: But Sprained Leg, it’s a Russian band, the Russian name is (Russian name) which
basically means “I sprained my leg” or something like that. And the song’s name is “Our Young
Funny Voices”.
...Our Young Funny Voices by Sprained Leg plays...
Drew: You translated it to me as “Our youthful funny voices”
Alex: Our youthful, our youthful funny voices is what it’s called, yes Our Youthful Funny Voices.
And basically, to kind of recap the lyrics, uh, it’s about dead people who are in the morgue and
it’s their perspective on the things and it talks mostly about like, like the lyrics there are very,
they’re very much about being--being dead. So yeah one of the verses goes “We’re going to go
like the products in the fridge and we will, we will embrace and we will fall asleep forever. And
as it’s last goodbye the dim light will smile at us with it’s dim light”. You know it’s basically that’s
the lyrics. And you know um I first heard this song when I was very young because it was one of
the top chart songs in Russia. Like 2000 and, like early 2000s. I don’t remember exactly but um
thinking about it today, I kind of reopened my understanding of what the lyrics meant and it turns
out, from my perspective, this song is more about, anti-establishment song. Because, you, most
people don’t know this about Russian culture, but we have drafts, like military drafts and you
have to, you have to serve. If you are a male, when you reach the age of 18 years old, you get a
letter in the mail saying that you have been drafted please report to this and this drafting facility
where they will medically assess you and they will send you to serve. And uh---
Drew: Unless you’re in like college, right?
Alex: Yeah, unless you’re getting education at the time, you will, you have to serve, there’s no
way around it. You can also continue to, like a lot of people do it this way, they continue staying
in school until they’re 27, and once they are 27, they no longer become eligible to serve,
because at that point, you cannot do a lot of change when it comes to physical and mental
attitude. Because, you know, as in any country, the military’s purpose is---I’m not gonna go
there because we’re probably gonna have some--- (laughs)
Drew: (Laughs) We’re gonna just keep diving down, we’re gonna just lean in--
Alex: Yes, downward slope
Drew: Like this went from we’re gonna talk about disco to the most serious fuckin podcast.
Alex: Yes and the music video for that song is like what it make me think about
Drew: Oh yeahh
Alex: Music video for that song is, it’s four men, which are the band members, in black suits,
representing you know like a funeral, they are standing in the middle of the forest and then they
start digging the grave. They start digging a really deep hole. Then later, four men in military
outfits come in, and they throw those four men into the hole and they start covering them with
the dirt and from what I understand the connection between the music video and the lyrics, like
they’re talking about dead bodies, they’re saying like there’s an evil maniac walking around
looking for its next victim and he decides what is their fashion sense as they go away. And I
connected and I was like “Shit, this is an anti-military song!”. They’re speaking about our
youthful--like because the first verse goes “People will never hear our youthful funny voices
again, the only thing that we’ll hear them is the heaven, and people will never remember our
youthful funny names, the only thing that remembers them is silence”. And that’s basically, it
represents, it represents exactly that young man that goes to fight in war, they have no say and
then they die and they never are heard from again or they are never remembered because they
never go to achieve anything, so that’s--
Drew: Yeah it’s a brutal, I obviously didn’t understand the lyrics because I don’t speak Russian
but that is..and watching the music video I was like this is real dark. This is---yeah
Alex: Yeah
Drew: It was really good though
Beto: You’re sad music is different than my sad music, I listen to like sad music about a girl or
something
Alex: Mmhm
Drew: Right, so why do we, like why do we do that? Why do we listen to sad music, is it like a
cathartic thing? I mean I know in my experience it is, it’s a catharsis you know like picking a scar
or or turning of the knife kind of a thing.
Alex: So you will--that’s actually a common idea that people have when they think about “Oh no
you’re listening to sad music, which is feeding yourself more sadness
Drew: Sure
Alex: And that’s how people think it is. The reason is actually---let me just flail my bachelor’s
degree in front of your face.
(All Laugh)
Alex: And say, and say there has been research done on why we’ll listen to sad music. There
has been, there has been scientific research where uh I think they took two groups of 38
women, one of them was women diagnosed with major-depressive disorder and the healthy
control group and they were basically coming from the same backgrounds you know like
middle-class, white American women. Um and they conducted the research where they were
playing the depressive music and non-depressive music, and people who have been diagnosed
with depressive disorder have been choosing said music, and then of course there was like a
post-experiment discussion, debriefing and such and what they have found, is that for many
cases, the reason why we choose sad music when we are feeling sad or feeling depressed is
because its low-tone, its vibrance, its tempo they are very soothing. And that makes us feel
caressed in a way.
Drew: That’s interesting, because I would have never ever ever guessed that. Do you know how
that translates to like angry music when you’re mad?
Alex: Uh yeah, sure, I did not do research on angry music when you’re mad but I will tell you like
this, I also suffer from anger management situations.
Out of Phase Episode 8 : Anti-Cringe
Out of Phase Episode 8 : Anti-Cringe
D: Uhhhm. Here’s the thing. Do even want to try to do a fuckin cold intro? Cause it never gets used. I don’t think we need to. We’ll say some-
(lo-fi piano music playing)
B: Yeah, eventually.
D: Eventually.
B: Yeah.
D: So I’ll introduce myself, Beto, you introduce yourself, I’ll introduce you, Nayeli. And ask you how’s it going.
B: What color is my underwear
N: Red.
D: Yeah, stuff like that.
N: Am I right?
B: Yeah, you got it.
D: You fucking weirdo.
N: Did I?!
D: What was it, red? Red?
B: No.
N: Oh, damn.
D: Is it green?
B: No, it’s just black.
D: You fucking loser. Mine is- mine ‘ve got penguins on it.
N: We get it. You have MeUndies.
D: I get it, we have a MeUndies subscription- we actually don’t because we don’t have any money.
(music stops)
D: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Out of Phase, presented by Portland State Professional Sound. I am Drew Haevner.
B: And I’m Beto Corrasco.
D: Yeah and we’ve been a little bit MIA, a little bit off the radar the last couple weeks. We’ve just had a couple things- like our term just ended. We’re all students, so we missed one there and posted one a week late, and that kind of stuff. It’s summer term, most of us aren’t doing anything, some of us are taking classes. But we’re back in the saddle with our weekly show. And this week, to start off our recording again, we’re just going to come full cycle. Once again we have Nayeli Naranjo Robles with us. Hi Nayeli.
N: Hello!
B: Woo!
D: What do you do at PSPS?
B: (close to the mic) Tell us.
N: Well now I’m just a… a person, who attends meetings. And writes the blog, I guess. But I used to be the general manager.
B: Hype.
D: Yeah so, what- we’ve kind of started asking people what kind of music they’re into and trying to get a sense of what their profile is- kind of a thing.
B: Their MO.
D: Yeah, their MO. That’s a good way of putting it. What kind of music are you into?
N: Umm.. I like shitty alt music.
D: So, just The Strokes.
B: Damn.
N: The Strokes is my favorite band.
D: We were trying to find another person to come on the show this week, and Nayeli was like “yeah I’ll do it”. And You got really excited about what you were going to talk about and I was like, “you can’t talk about The Strokes.”
N: No, actually I would describe my music taste as meloncore adjacent.
D: Oh.
B: What is meloncore, actually? I pretend I know what that is cause I can assume, but may I have a definition.
N: Meloncore is the.. is the type of music that Anthony Fantano…
D: Anthony Fantano-
N: No, let me fucking talk. Let me explain it. Anthony Fantano fans listen to and have meme pages. A lot of them- sorry what?
B: Who’s Anthony Fantano?
N: Anthony Fantano is a music-
D: The Needle Drop?
N: The Needle Drop- is a music reviewer on YouTube and he’s probably like the most well known modern music reviewer. And his fans jokingly call him ”Melon,” which is why I say meloncore. It’s-
B: Ohhhh got it.
D: He’s got a big bald head.
N: Yeah, it’s the certain kind of music that is a mix of albums that he’s given a 10, slash other music that the soft white boys tend to like.
D: Anything that Max likes.
N: Or anything that Max likes, yeah.
D: Shame on Max.
N: Well, I would say Max is like meloncore, but I’d say I’m adjacent because The Strokes is my favorite band. Or I also like will listen to Spanish music or whatever.
B: Hell yeah.
D: So what’s your connection to music? How did you get into working in this industry? Because I know you want to keep working in this industry.
N: It’s been a whole fuckin wild ride, as to how I got to where I am now. But basically, it was theater. It was theater-
D: Nayeli and I went to high school together and were in the same theater program, that’s how I know about this place.
N: It was the fact that I started working for a musical theater company, and it was also the fact that me and you, Drew, had that music literature class. And that was-
D: Really? That surprised me.
N: Yeah, that was like the year that I started to more- and this was my senior year of high school, by the way- that was when I first started to take music a little bit more seriously and want to expand what I like more than just…
D: More than Fall Out Boy.
N: More than whatever Tumblr told me to listen to, ya know.
B: Pierce the Veil.
D: Don’t talk shit about Pierce the Veil.
N: I love Pierce the Veil!
B: That’s my favorite band.
D: We should just do a Pierce the Veil episode.
N: I- so I moved back home to save money. Rip, I’m sorry Beto, I wish we could have lived together. But my mom found this Pierce the Veil pullover that I wore in high school.
B: Hype.
N: I’m totally gonna wear it this fall.
D: Oh no. You have that Fall Out Boy jumper too, I remember.
N: Ale has that, Ale wears it now. Second generation Fall Out Boy fan.
D: I’ve seen them wear it. You’re the same generation but okay.
N: Um. Where was I… I don’t remember.
B: Fall Out Boy.
D: Theater, you took a class about music literature.
N: And then I applied to PSPS because I was like “Oh, sound, tech, I do tech because theater. I want to learn about sound, I never did sound in high school.” And-
D: Because none of us ever knew how.
N: Yeah, and then that year that was the true- the previous year led up to it, but that was the main year. It is because of PSPS that I stopped being a theater major. And then for awhile I was like “I want to do tech stuff.” And now I’m like “I want to do some kind of music journalism, some kind of shit.” I think. I think.
D: Nice. You think. Somewhere around music, I getcha. Sweet. Well, it’s good to have you on again, obviously. And you’re gonna talk about some, something.
N: Yeah, something.
D: So, later in the show Nayeli’s gonna talk about-
N: Counter culture.
D: Wait, correct me if I’m wrong- trying to identify what 2000s counterculture is.
N: Yeah, that is essentially what I’m gonna try and talk about.
D: So we’re gonna talk a lot about counterculture today, in more ways than one because we’re gonna talk about that and Beto’s gonna talk a bit about-
B: My top 10 Vampire Weekend songs.
D: (laughing) Top 10 Vampire Weekend songs.
N: Shoutout to my Vampire Weekend pullover that I’m wearing right now.
D: Beto’s gonna talk a little bit about- like post-90’s alternative rock and a little bit about noise.
B: Guitar go bvrr.
D: Yeah, just noise- some noisy stuff. But before we do all of that, we’re gonna return to my nostalgia corner, which is never going to be a good name.
N: That’s what makes it good.
D: Yeah, it’s always going to be corny as fuck. But this week we’re going to talk about Sleater-Kinney. Sleater-Kinney, have you guys heard of Sleater-Kinney before?
N: Mmhm.
B: Not before you mentioned it.
N: Dude we live in PNW.
D: They do, it’s true. That’s actually a really big part of what I’m going to talk about. So we’re specifically going to talk about the song “One More Hour”, which is on their album Dig Me Out. Which is one of their more seminal works. But we’re going to talk about them broadly speaking, as I always do. Um. So the band itself, like Nayeli said, they’re from the Pacific Northwest, they were formed in Olympia, Washington, which is like, I wanna say an hour and a half south of Seattle. It’s just on i5 as you drive up north to Seattle. So in Olympia in 1994. It was formed by Corin Tucker and Carrie Brownstein, who are both from the Pacific Northwest. Brownstein’s from Seattle and Corin Tucker’s actually from Eugene.
B: Woah.
D: And they were both going to school in Olympia at I think Evergreen State College.
N: Fuckin Evergreen.
D: Evergreen. It’s really cool cause- the next thing I have written down perfectly segways into that- they came up in what’s called the Riot-girls scene. Which is like a feminist punk genre that came out of predominantly Olympia, but broadly the Pacific Northwest. Eugene and Portland and Seattle are also really important spots for it. And it kind of combined third wave feminist and punk and talked about a lot of the same issues that more prominent third-wave feminists were talking about. And it kind of helped develop the genre of indie. Actually, all three of the big members of Sleater-Kinney were in Riot-girl band previously to being in Sleater-Kinney. And the most notable one is Corin Tucker, the lead singer, who is in Heavens to Betsy, which is a very monolithic Riot-girl band.
B: What is a Riot-girl band?
D: What is a Rio Girl band?
B: Yeah.
D: A Riot-girl band is just- it’s usually an all female band- or not necessarily all female, I would imagine there are still Riot-girl bands out there who have queer members or are don’t identify as female. Usually it’s a band that plays Riot-girl music, that’s that indie-punk, focusing on women’s issues and queer issues. It’s really associated with third and fourth wave feminism. So yeah. Sleater-Kinney is also named after a prominent road in Olympia, which you can actually- you drive underneath and you go north going to Seattle. You can see the street sign for it- Sleater-Kinney Rd. And many of you may not be familiar with the band, but a lot of you are probably familiar with their lead guitarist and backup vocalist Carrie Brownstein, because she went on the create the show Portlandia with Fed Armisen.
B: That’s why it sounded familiar.
D: Yeah, so the other half of the Portlandia duo is Carrie Brownstein.
B: Duhh.
D: Yes. And that’s how I actually came across this. I love Portlandia, I think it’s a great show. I knew that she was in a band, I knew it was called Sleater-Kinney and I just started listening to it one day and it was great.
(clip of “One More Hour” by Sleater-Kinney plays
Lyrics: In one more hour, I will be gone
In one more hour, I'll leave this room)
D: (singing along in an Alt-J-like way)
B: Alt-J’s back.
D: I love Corin Tucker’s voice. It’s fucking weird. Every episode, I have to do an impression of the band. That’s the deal.
B: It’s always Alt-J, thought.
D: It’s not! Cause if it was Alt-J it would be like… hold on. (singing “One More Hour” in an even more Alt-J-like way)
N: It’s pretty close.
D: It’s a little bit, cause everyone is a little bit Alt-J. It’s like Alt-J if-
N: It’s cursive singing.
B: Cursive singing.
D: No, Corin Tucker is like dashed lines. Everything is like (singing slurred speech, indistinctly). It’s like you’re hitting your throat (singing while hitting his throat).
N: Yeah.
D: I love it. I really enjoy this song as a song. And I think primarily because of its simplicity. I think it’s a really clean, really- not cut-and-dry cause that makes it seem like its boring- but it’s two guitars, two vocalists, and some drums. There’s nothing super complicated going on and I think I just enjoy that in music. I also really enjoy how the guitars king of juxtapose and compliment each other really nicely. They’re- you’ve got one that plays the melody (singing melody with “duh”), and then that other- the really high pitched distorted (singing counter melody with “diga”).
(all laughing)
D: I think that they sound really nice together, I think that they invoke a lot of the inspiration for that type of music and they pull a lot from grunge and punk and all this other stuff. And like proto-punk, like The Kings and The Stooges and things like that.
B: You know about The Stooges?
D: Of course I know about The Stooges. Who the fuck do you think I am?
B: I’m surprised.
D: I love Iggy Pop’s music, he’s great. You’re surprised that I know about The Stooges? Everyone knows about The Stooges.
B: A little bit. I mean I didn’t even know about The Stooges for a hot second.
D: Oh god, Roberto. Yes. I know about The Stooges. I think it’s more like emblematic of The Kings than The Stooges, but it calls back to that kind of music. I also really enjoy the vocals, but I want to know what you two think about the vocals.
N: I love this song. When I- okay so I haven’t really listened to their stuff but I know of them and I know that I’ve heard their stuff because, like I said, we live in PNW, you know?
D: I play them at work a lot too.
N: And I- so when I played this, I didn’t know what it was gonna be, as soon as I heard that guitar I was like “Shit! This slaps!”.
B: Bangers.
N: It is!
D: I think that their vocals are both these interesting kind of acquired taste- and I think the term acquired taste is super cliché. But I don’t know-
N: This-
D: Go ahead.
N: So here’s the thing. When it comes to certain voices, I’m like- I don’t know. I guess for me it’s like a hit or miss, ya know?
D: That is just what I was going to say.
N: But I really enjoy hers, but I don’t know if it really is just a hit or miss or if this is maybe not as intense as some other ones. But, for example, The Cranberries “Zombies”. I want to kill myself when that song comes on the radio. I hate that song.
B: You don’t like her accent?
D: (imitating vocals from “Zombie” by The Cranberries)
N: Please stop!
D: (continuing)
N: I want to die. I hate that. I’m not going to say it sucks, I just don’t like it.
D: Yeah I’m not surprised. I knew that you, Nayeli were either going to really like the vocals or really not like the vocals because I bring stuff to you and go “look at this, it’s got really weird vocals” and you’re either like “ this is awesome” or “this sucks shit”. And uhh… yeah. I think Tucker has this really aggressive vibrato to her voice, especially- actually we’ll talk about that in a little bit. But I don’t know, I think that both Tucker and Bronstein’s vocals are very dated. Not dated, but very much from the time period and genre that they are from. They’re very mid-to-late-90’s fem punk. I think that- and this might be me projection, it’s just that Corin Tucker doesn’t have the most traditional vocal training or whatever the fuck- but I feel like these vocals fit in really nicely with this genre because they are not what we’ve come to expect, broadly speaking, from female vocalists in indie or alternative music. We expect a little bit more grace, I think, a lot of the time, especially in more popular indie nowadays. And the fact that both of them are very subversive in a way. The fact that they’re both just like “I’m gonna sing just the note. I’m not gonna do anything interesting”- it’s very- it’s almost like sprechgesang, which is B52’s speak-sing kind of thing. And I think that subverts the expectations of-
N: I mean I think that’s the point.
D: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying, it’s supposed to be subversive.
N: And I also when it comes to punk, or whatever, it’s not about- I don’t think it’s ever been about whether you can actually sing good. It’s about getting your thoughts out, ya know?
D: Right. Yeah. It totally fits withing the broader punk genre. I think it’s really- I think that’s not- That’s most apparent in that second- that last bridge. The “don’t say another word about the other girl” because her voice breaks into this incredibly intense vibrato. It’s cool. It’s really unique. I think that their music is broadly speaking very unique. It’s kind of one of the only things from this genre, this time period, that became mainstream. And survived the test of time. They just put out an album about a year ago.
N: Their drummer left, but yeah.
D: Janet Weiss, yeah. She left right after the album. But it was produced by St. Vincent, who I’ve talked about on this show before. I love her.
B: That’s cool.
D: It’s a really really really good album. I think it’s cool that they’ve stood the test of time. Do you have any other thoughts on it as a song, not as- I don’t know, its lyrics or meaning or anything?
N: It slaps, bro. That’s all I can say.
D: It’s catchy. It’s a catchy proto-punk song. It’s cool. It reminds me of so many things.
B: I was wondering if maybe it inspired bands like- my mind raced to Chastity Belt, have y’all heard of Chastity Belt? They’re from Seattle.
D: Hm, no.
N: I’ve heard of them.
B: Yeah, they’re cool.
D: I wouldn’t be surprised. I know that Sleater-Kinney is, despite the fact they’re kind of in a way a little bit like The Pixies, like I talked about last time, where they are important to-
B: Oh my god, everyone’s like The Pixies.
D: Everyone’s like The Pixies. No but they’re important to the development of the genre of indie music. They genuinely are. So I think they’re interesting. I’ve always found them quite interesting. And I’ve found them quite a bit- I find them more interesting and I find myself coming back to them more than I find myself coming back to Bikini Kill, for example, another Riot-girl band. I like Bikini Kill, I don’t dislike Bikini Kill or Heavens to Betsy at all, but I find myself coming back to Sleater-Kinney and I think it’s maybe just because A) Sleater-Kinney has existed longer and they’ve put out more music over the- they still exist as a band and I don’t think Bikini Kill or Heavens to Betsy still make music, I could be wrong though. And yeah, I think that their subject matter is a little bit more diverse. Not to say- because Riot-girl is very specific about its subject matter, it’s a very political genre. It’s a very advocate-oriented genre and I think… Sleater-Kinney still does that, but it’s more varied. Right? And this is also me speaking from knowing more about Sleater-Kinney than Bikini Kill or Heavens to Betsy or really any other Riot-girl band, but, for example, this song is about- this song is interesting because it’s about Tucker and Brownstein’s relationship. They were dating when this band was formed. They were together for a number of years and when this album came out they had just broken up.
N: Oh.
D: While they were recording this album. Yeah, it’s a very Fleetwood Mac Rumors-
B: Oh damn.
D: And still it’s- if you look at the lyrics and you listen to the lyrics, that makes sense. Maybe not so much that it’s about those two people specifically, but it’s a breakup song pretty clearly. The lyrics are, ya know, “In one more hour I’ll leave this room.” It’s a lot about departure and wanting to still be around that person, kind of thing. But I think that it stands out the clearest in the chorus, which is a call and response between Tucker and Brownstein. And Tucker is singing variations on “I needed it, I needed it,” and Brownstein’s responses are “I know, it’s so hard for you to let it go, you never wanted to let it go”. And so it’s interesting because these people are life-long friends. They’ve continued to work together for decades, but they started knowing each other by dating, and to hear them talk about their relationship in that way is really interesting because it’s sad, it’s clear that the song is from the perspective of one of them wanting that relationship, but also realizing that they don’t need to be in that relationship. And let’s just take a listen to that specific part of the song, that chorus.
(Clip of “One More Hour” by Sleater-Kinney plays
Lyrics: I needed it (I know, I know, I know)
Oh I needed it (It's so hard for you to let it go)
I needed it (I know, I know, I know)
Oh I needed it (I never wanted to let it, let it go))
N: I think that’s really cool because, when talking about other examples of that, Fleetwood Mac or The White Stripes, ya know. That breakup just ends up ending that band or whatever.
B: Relatable.
D: I don’t think it did because this is, I don’t know if this is exactly their first album. This is their first album on… No it’s not their first album, I lied. This is their third album and this came out in ’97 and it ended- they put out one, two, three, four more albums after this pretty much in a row in ’99, 2000, 2002, 2005. Then they took a hiatus and came back in 2015, 2017, 2019. So like- and their drummer just left last year, but the two of them are still in this band together.
N: Yeah, it’s awesome.
D: Something about the way that they make this, something about the synergy- I know Corin Tucker is their main writer. I know that she is also their main vocalist. Carrie Bronstein is predominantly featured as a writer and as a vocalist and guitarist, it’s not a The Beatles and Ringo situation. It’s not a “Ringo’s just here to play the music”. I don’t know, it has, there’s clear collaboration between the two. And I think that relationship is really cool because I think it would be really hard, especially in your 20’s, breaking up with someone and staying in this band with them. And I’ve always liked that song for that reason. I think it’s really cool and unique and, I don’t know, it’s sad. And now I want to talk about what my connection is to it because, like usual, it has nothing to do with the actual song, the meaning or anything like that. So I grew up in the Portland Metro area, like I’ve said several times in this show. But both my parents are from Washington. And they both grew up in Seattle, they both went to the University of Washington. Most of my family still lives in Washington, mostly around the Seattle area. So I’ve spent a lot of time in Seattle, I’ve always been in Washington a lot. So I’ve always have a kinship to that state, despite the fact that I didn’t grow up there. One of the things that I’ve always thought was the coolest about that, and I do even more as I do this show and I work in this industry, is that both my parents were around my age in their 20’s when the Washington music scene started to become really important in the early 90’s with grunge happening. And the everything that happened and after that era. For some reason- I grew up around that music, right? It’s like that was a very important moment in music history and my dad is particularly into music. Not to say that my mom isn’t but my dad is a big music person. So I heard about that a lot growing up, but I heard about what it was like to live in that space and be a part of that historical moment in music history. The development of a new genre of music that went on to influence rock for decades. We are still living in an era that is influenced by grunge music. So, for some reason, being around that music as I grew up and hearing about how my parents lived in that epicenter of that musical event, it made me take pride in being from the Pacific Northwest. I think that everyone who is into music and is from an area that has some affluential musicians gets that. Like, Beto, you were born here and grew up here and Nayeli you grew up in the Pacific Northwest predominantly, so I’m sure you can-
B: I just say I’m west coast.
N: Yeah.
D: But I’m sure you can empathize, though. When someone is from the Pacific Northwest, when a musician is, there’s that kind of “yeah! Good for them, that’s cool!”
N: Yeah, for sure. I was listening to Elliot Smith the other day and I was like, “Damn, he really do be from Portland.”
D: Chef’s kiss. Cause the next thing I was gonna say was about Elliot Smith.
(laughing)
D: I think that everyone- I think it’s partially cause we aren’t California and New York, but I think- My partner’s from Southern California and she, not that she’s a big music person, but I can’t imagine being from Southern California being like “Oh, this artist is from Southern California, how cool”. It’s not. But I, when I hear Elliot Smith sing about The Rose Parade or Alameda, that’s cool. I know what he’s talking about, I’ve seen that, I’ve been there. I think that we get this hometown hero mentality. I, similarly, know where Sleater-Kinney Road is. I’ve driven under that road tens, if not hundreds of times, going to and from Seattle because I spend a lot of time there. And yeah, I think it’s just that Sleater-Kinney in particular, partially because I enjoy that type of music more than I’m really into grunge, because I like grunge and I enjoy listening to it, but I enjoy alternative rock like this a little bit more. But Sleater-Kinney triggers this same unjust-nostalgia, is the way that I labeled it, that I got from when I was in London last summer. Because having this tangible connection to music changes how I feel about that music. And having a tangible and familial connection to Washington only compounds on that. So aside from the fact that I really like their music and they seem like cool people, and they’re really interesting, and they’re smart women who are part of an important movement in the music scene; having that tangible connection to multiple facets of who they are makes them more interesting to me. And I think a lot of people can relate to. That’s my two cents on Sleater-Kinney.
N: I agree. (laugh)
D: Yeah.
N: Yeah.
D: Beto do you want to do this transition into Nayeli’s thing? Cause I just talked for like 15 minutes.
B: Yeah. Heheh. Yeah. And now we’ll pass it on to Nayeli. Whatchu got to say?
N: I have a lot. Uhm. Recently I’ve been trying to learn more about US music history, or music history in general, but mostly focusing on the Us and mostly focusing on rock and rock subgenres. Because I didn’t grow up listening to a lot of what is considered classical- Classic Rock.
B: Dad rock.
D: Classical rock.
N: Sorry, no. I… okay. Wait.
D: Mozart goes haaard.
N: What a lot of people talk about or listen to, they get from their parents, right? So right here it’s a lot of Classic Rock. Or you, your parents were in that scene in Washington, so you know a lot about that. I mostly grew up listening to Spanish music, so I don’t… ya know when people talk about The Beatles I’m like “look, I know the few really popular songs, ya know?”
D: You know Hey Jude.
N: Exactly. I know… Yesterday.
D: Those are kind of the only ones you need to know. That and While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Those are the only really important ones.
N: Yeah, and so…
B: (mumbles with disapproval)
D: Sorry, I don’t make the rules.
N: As someone who wants to continue working in music, and more specifically possible music publication, music news, stuff like that, I felt like I needed to brush up on my history. And I mostly started to learn about punk, because that attracts me the most right now. A little bit of goth, and through that I’ve also just been learning, like I said, mostly rock US history. And I started to think about: okay, punk. That is- I feel like when a lot of people think about counterculture they think about punk. And mostly that. And I started to think about, what is that right now? What is the counterculture right now? Or what has it been recently, because, ya know, recently with how music listening has changed- it just has completely- the internet has changed everything. And what used to be you only listen to one or two genres and you buy records and go to shows or whatever, now it’s like you’re listening to playlists and you’re streaming and ya know, record sales don’t really count for much. Artists depend on touring and merch sales to get money.
D: Well and even with the advent of digital audio workstations and distribution software like Bandcamp, it’s easier to make music. Like, then it was “you don’t need to have access to a studio,” for example.
N: Yeah, and that’s changed many things and we have so- in the past 10 years there has been this major increase in subgenres and genre blending, a lot more specifically recently. And that’s made it a lot more difficult to answer the question of “what is counterculture right now?” Cause there’s so many cultures going on right now and people are a part of many of them. And initially, when I started thinking about this, I was kind of thinking about hyper-pop because that is something that I’ve been interested in recently. Hyper-pop is this- it’s essentially what it means. It’s this more intense pop music.
D: It’s pop turned up to 12, basically, right?
N: Yeah, and it’s pioneered by SOPHIE and Charli XCX have been doing it, and more recently 100 Gecs, which I’m going to talk about a little bit more. And a bunch of other people. And that’s kind of what I thought, but I was getting things confused. I was really interested in hyper-pop and that’s why I was making this connection that wasn’t necessarily there. Cause I was not really understanding what counterculture was and I was more thinking about a subgenre. So counterculture is a culture whose values and norms differ substantially from those of mainstream society, often in opposition to mainstream cultural mores. That is the official definition, and in the past what that has looked like is being anti-war, a sexual revolution-
D: Rebellion.
N: Rebellion, anti-sexism, anti-capitalism.
D: So, what do you think steers us away from that now? Cause those things I think are still really present.
N: I’m not saying it steers us away from it, but the thing is that isn’t necessarily counterculture now.
D: Right, it’s more mainstream.
N: I guess. Although, counterculture isn’t also- I wouldn’t say that it’s necessarily against mainstream, even thought that is the definition.
D: (laughing) (sarcastic) I wouldn’t say the definition is correct.
N: I’m just adding a little- just because I- It’s also really hard to think about some things because right now what is common and more the norm now is not what was experienced 10 years ago. And then I was talking to a friend about it and he made a really good point about why Vaporwave is the counterculture of the 2010s. He said Vaporwave is counterculture because it takes something that was popular and distorts it. Often, beyond recognition. Vaporwave is admitting that capitalism has won and trying to find beauty in it. That’s why Vaporwave works. It exists because of the machine. Which, as we know, a lot of counterculture is about raging against the machine- haah hah.
D: Fuck you.
N: Okay, sorry. I think he has a very good point. I think Vaporwave is a really go contender because of its internet-y bit of it. The internet-
D: It’s a meme.
N: No, okay.
B: It surpassed-
D: It is.
N: It was a meme.
B: And an aesthetic.
N: And it was an aesthetic. I guess the point is, I feel like that really shows- Vaporwave really showcases what was going on in online culture at the time. Online culture a that time, around early 2000 was not mainstream. It was not popular. It was only- right now everybody’s online, everybody’s memeing, all of that good stuff. But that wasn’t mainstream, that wasn’t common at that time. And some other things that I wanted to know, that came from this era, which will lead into what I’m going to be talking about next, is like nightcore, Hatsune Miku-
D: The genre of Hatsune Miku
N: Vocaloid. I’m talking about Vocaloid. And all of this- we’re seeing this new type of electronic music, and it’s not that electronic music or EDM was new or anything, but I feel like it kind of resurfaced around this time. Kind of thanks to Skrillex and making dubstep mainstream. Kind of also because 2012 was when we first saw K-Pop make it into a US household, with-
D: What happened in 2012?
N: Gangnam Style.
D: Ohhh yeah. I’ve never thought about that as K-Pop but it completely is K-Pop. It’s just Gangnam Style.
N: It is. And once again, more online, as in- cause also online and the internet has different spaces, obviously. But I feel like at the time there was the people who were using it more as a tool, or watching funny cat videos, and then there were the people who were kind of in it. They were in that- they’re watching certain Youtubers, they were on Reddit or 4Chan. That’s a certain group of people at that time and, ya know, Vocaloid. I don’t know, in a sense, I feel like I’m maybe projecting because that was what I was doing at that time, and I was kind of in that. And maybe I want to say that that was the counterculture because I kind of experienced it. But I also can’t really think of anything else that could have been that at the time, that wasn’t another iteration of punk or whatever, ya know?
D: Yeah. I think that the advent of the internet has maybe made the term “counterculture” somewhat obsolete in a way. Because the term counterculture implies that there is a predominant culture. That’s just inherent in the definition. And the interned has allowed so many different subcultures to become something more than a subculture. Like, there’s no way that dubstep would have been a thing without the internet. There’s no way because it’s not mass appeal, in pretty much any way. There… yeah. My point is just that it needs something like that- the ability to spread virally from person to person over infinite amounts of space, to become as popular as it is.
N: I agree, I do think that it is sort of dated because, like I said, things are so much different now. And also- I think we’ve talked about this before in terms of genre as a thing, and how that isn’t really a thing anymore- and I feel like now, when talking about counterculture, it isn’t about a specific genre, and this is where I want to start getting into the other thing I wanted to say. I think what we’re experiencing right now isn’t necessarily a specific genre or a specific scene, but it’s more so an ideology. I don’t know if that’s the right word.
D: I don’t know if it is either. Can you explain?
B: Well explain it, yeah.
N: Yeah. So in the past, people have used punk as a vehicle for anti-war, anti-capitalism expressions, right? But I feel like now, instead of using a certain genre to express that, it’s more just the anti-war or whatever. But right now, what I would argue- and right now I’m not talking about the 2010s. I’m talking about right now, right now. I’m talking about anti-cringe. No more cringe, society has surpassed the need for cringe.
D: Have you been on Reddit ever?
B: What do you mean?
N: What I am saying is that-
N: Anti-cringe is one of the potential titles of this show.
N: What I’m saying is, counterculture right now, or what it has been for the past couple of years, is being anti-cringe.
D: Okay.
N: What it means is being able to fully and thoroughly enjoy something and not be embarrassed by it, no matter what people say about it. Actually loving things. And not caring what other people care.
D: This a good fucking argument.
B: 100 Gecs, oh my god.
N: 100 Gecs is like the epitome of anti-cringe.
(Xxi_wud_nvrstop_uxxx by 100 Gecs plays)
N: The entirety of it is anti-cringe because- I fucking love them and I genuinely like the music. I really do, I do think it is good music, and the reason why I’m saying it the way that I am is because whenever I show it to somebody- or when I showed it to you, Drew you were like “Do you actually like this? Do you unironically like this?” And I’m like “Yes, I do unironically like this.”
D: Well, okay. It’s because this is the coolest argument I’ve heard someone make to me in awhile, by the way. We’re finally coming out of the 2000’s and 90’s everything is fucking ironic. Finally and everything, not even being post-ironic. Being like “Oh, I am wearing a Coca-Cola T-shirt because consumerism is a thing, so it’s ironic, but I also like Coca-Cola so it’s post-ironic. No, I just like soda.” That’s it. It’s this return to sincerity.
N: Yes. Yes.
D: Fuck, that’s really really clever.
N: Yes, this is what I’m talking about.
D: And you’re right, because when you asked, “Look at this band” I was like “Do you actually like this, or is this like I ironically listen to Breathe Carolina because it’s funny”. No, you actually- I mean I don’t like it personally but…
N: Exactly.
D: That’s a very good argument for counterculture. Internet counterculture.
N: Yeah, I think that’s what it is. Anti-cringe. And I think that’s what 100 Gecs is doing right now, and when I first saw 100 Gecs, it was also my first time listening to them and they were opening for Brockhampton, who when saw them were already pretty big. Ya know, they had reached their popularity, their mainstream- ness. While I was in the crowd, everyone around me was like “What the fuck is this, this is weird, this isn’t music. When is Brockhampton gonna come on?” I was confused but in a curious way, where I don’t really understand what’s- I was vibing. I don’t really understand what’s going on, I haven’t really heard something like this, or not in this kind of setting. But I like it. And I ended up coming back to them a few months after, I think. And I loved it. It’s also kind of reminds me of whenever I listen to Joanna Newsome because a lot of people really hate her voice.
D: Her voice is cool, I don’t know what people are talking about.
N: I love it and it’s one of those things where I’m not going to recommend this to you because I know you’re probably not going to like it, but I really do. Even if it is not what most people would like. And also, at this point, like I said about the whole anti-cringe. I also don’t care anymore, because I’m just going to like shit that I like. I don’t care that you make fun of me because I like The Strokes, or whatever.
D: There’s nothing wrong with liking The Strokes. That has nothing me thinking The Strokes-
N: Or even just the fact that I listen to shitty alt music, or whatever. Right now I’m saying shitty but I don’t actually think it’s shitty, because I actually do like it. I don’t care if I listen to the same Mac Demarco all the time. I get the memes, I do like that. But I also really like 100 Gecs and I… yeah. What I love about them, too, is that other- Drew you’re not the only person who’s been like “Oh, this is irony, or whatever.” Or “this is meme music,” or “they’re making this ironically”. But they don’t.
D: Yeah, it’s genuine experimental.
N: Like Dylan and Laura, they genuinely like what they’re doing. This isn’t- what’s it called? The pink guy album.
D: It’s post-post-ironic.
N: No, because it’s genuine.
D: Exactly, it’s cyclical. We’ve come around to genuine sincerity from irony to post-irony to post-post-irony.
N: Yeah. And I guess another point to make is that I kind of feel like other people are starting to catch onto this in terms of sincerity. But it’s still- and the reason why I’ll say that it is counterculture is it still isn’t even- people still aren’t truly tapping into it. They say they are but they’re not really. The other day, I was having a conversation with my friends, one of which I had talked to about- I told them “no more cringe, society has surpassed the need for cringe,” and they agreed with me. And yet, recently, when I was talking to them and some other friends, they started memeing on furries because that’s what people do.
D: That’s popular.
N: People make fun of furries. And I was like “Nah, dude. They just like it. They’re just furries, ya know?” And I was defending furries. But these people who were saying that they were anti-cringe were still being like “well…”. They were still cringing at people and, ya know, fuck that.
B: Cringing.
N: Or on TikTok, some people will make TikToks of certain types of people from high school, or whatever, and one that I’ve been seeing going around is about that nerdy guy who wears Pokémon T-shirts and has headphones.
D: And a sweat suit.
N: Lowkey making fun of that kind of guy. Personally… I mean I do understand what’s funny about that TikTok, but also, you know what? That guy was just being genuine. Who cares if they’re wearing a Pokémon T-shirt, ya know? Let people enjoy things.
D: It’s a commitment to something that would be so traditionally be so cringe-inducing, but you just like that. Cool. Sure.
N: Yeah.
N: Nice.
(Macintosh Plus plays)
D: It’s noise rock, is the way that I’ve always put it.
B: There we go. Yeah.
D: So basically.
B: So basically… I guess this isn’t a very factual, logical conversation, but the rumor is that there was this journalist, this music reviewer and this was in the UK or something. Apparently they went to this show and they were reviewing this band and on their review they were like “These dudes were just shoe-gazing the whole time.” They were playing this ambient rock thing. Weird woosh sounds, and stuff. And I guess the performers were just-
D: Looking at their pedals.
B: Standing still.
D: That’s a great term.
B: So this term Shoe-gaze came out of that, ya know. There were some bands that I forgot to tell you guys, but I guess you could describe as this heavily- reliance, dependence, I don’t think those are the right terms but-
D: Involvement.
B: They’re like… yeah. It’s like the frickin colors on their pallet, ya know? Like on their little artist thing. They just use these pedals for that type of music. I guess you could describe Shoe-gaze as a deviation from another- all the other deviations from traditional rock songs or traditional music or mainstream music. This is just another path that branched out, and it has this focus more on sound design, more on soundscape. Could be introspective, or could just be trippy. It’s subjective matter. Whatever you’re gonna get out of it, you’re gonna get out of it. I would say some iconic bands or bands that helped defined what Shoe-gaze sounded like would be like- for starters, a very well known one is My Bloody Valentine, yeah for sure M… MBV. I had to think about that one.
D: Yeah, I almost said MBM.
B: MBM yeah.
D: My Bloody Malentine.
B: The thing is, I’ve always heard about them- this is a tangent. I’ve always heard about them and for the longest time I thought I was confusing them with Bullet for my Valentine.
N: Yes, oh my god yes.
B: Yeah, so I never gave them the light of day.
N: Me too.
B: I was like “these fucking screemos, why do people like them?” And then, no I had been listening to Shoe-gaze before but never this band. I always avoided them, and now I started, like everybody else, I loved “Loveless”. The juxtaposition, man. But it’s very well known for the ambience that’s created by Kevin Shields’ guitar work in the band. Kevin Shields is one of the leads in the band. I don’t know if he’s the lead of the band but he’s definitely one of their writers and he pioneers a strongward- he definitely created new ways to think about guitar. He basically made a guitar not sound like a guitar in a very new way, using pedals and stuff. He was able to create this really really cool landscape. Landscapes. These really cool soundscapes. Yeah. But still, they put in a lot of work, for sure, but they were still trying to make money. They were able to bring this alternative sound and mix it with mainstream music. Rock is pretty mainstream, so you get these really bizarre sounding rock songs. Like the first track on their album “Only Shallow,” you’re just going to have to listen to this cause you won’t understand.
(“Only Shallow” by My Bloody Valentine plays
Lyrics: Sleep
Like a pillow
Down(ward) )
B: Did you hear that guitar go bttd? So yeah, you can hear that guitar, or was that even a guitar or was that a synth? I don’t know, you tell me!
D: It’s like you’re on a game show.
B: Leave your response in the comments below.
D: On Spotify.
N: It’s so vibey. It’s vibey grunge.
B: Mhm. Some words that I’ve heard that I think are very right for describing it- not like very right like “this is facts, bro”- but that it’s very- it’s not gendered, necessarily. Sometimes music is gendered- I don’t know how to explain. You know how rock is sometimes so masculine and stuff. But this music is really aggressive, cause it comes in punching.
N: Shoe-gaze is a femboy.
B: Yeah.
D: It’s indiscriminate. It defines-
B: It’s that word-
D: It’s gender neutral. This music is queer.
B: Yeah, it hits hard and then it hits with- I think her name’s Belinda’s vocals come in and it’s this soft, caressing-
D: Juxtaposition, is that the word you’re looking for?
B: Yeah, sure juxtaposition. Or is androgynous still a term you can use?
D: Androgynous? Yeah.
B: It’s still very, like, woah, ya know? It’s just like bam. It’s going on and there’s this soundscape that’s filled with everything. It’s very noisy. It’s a noisy, noisy thing. I don’t know, did you two listen to this song? Or pretend that you listened to it?
D: I did, I actually do listen to the things that we talk about in our pre meeting. It’s amazing, right?
N: Like I said, it’s vibey grunge.
B: Vibey grunge.
D: A little bit, yeah.
N: I really enjoy it. It’s up my alley in terms of vibey music.
D: Vibey music.
N: I mean, for awhile I was mostly listening to just chill stuff.
D: Mhm. Yeah, they create a soundscape in a way that also- we’re talking about My Bloody Valentine still, right?
B: Yeah.
D: They create a soundscape int a way that also doesn’t- it’s not the whole thing, ya know? One of the other songs you’re gonna talk about is basically just a sonic art piece. And I think it’s cool in incorporate some of those things that come from sonic art, which is a similar discipline with completely different rules, into a more traditional framework.
B: Just a quick shout out to another band that helped define the genre, would be Slowdive. It’s a lot of these white kids from the UK.
N: Yeah. Meloncore loves them.
B: My favorite one is probably-
D: Motherfucker.
(laughing)
B: a very- I think it’s a very popular one, but I think it’s really cool. “Alison” by Slowdive is a great one to get into it. I actually got a guitar pedal because of Slowdive. I was like “Damn, that’s so dope. How do they do that?” If I get this pitch-shifting pedal by Boss, that’s cool.
N: I feel like they’re the beginnings of what is modern alt.
B: Oh, okay.
N: If that makes sense. Or at least, when I listened to Slowdive first and now listening to My Bloody Valentine, I feel like that- it’s because of them that we have people like Mac Demarco, I feel like.
B: Oh yeah, that’s a very good point.
D: Yeah, this genre, this focus on effects, focus on distortion, that starts with grunge and continues through the 90’s. It’s incredibly important to what modern alternative is. Actually I should say it starts with (close to mic) The Pixies.
B: Damn.
N: Okayy.
D: This is the meme on the show now. But no, this focus on distortion and affecting the sound in a way to change it, to alter it. It’s a through line that goes from Nirvana and it extends to things like Brockhampton of 100 Gecs. The use of distortion is incredibly prevalent in music today, in all genres, not just alternative rock.
N: I will say that the noise culture in general, as well as some electronic stuff from the 90’s and 2000’s, and stuff like that. I feel like what happened was that things were going on in rock. I’m just going to put it all under rock. And that was known. I feel like that was the big thing that was known. But also to the side we were seeing these advances in electronic music. And that, then with the internet- and right now what we’re mostly seeing is this connection of electronic and rock. And that is, I feel like, the basis of what rock is now, mostly.
D: IT’s the internet plus the ability to modulate sound.
B: What you said made me think of that Russian band I brought up last time. I forgot how Alex pronounced it, but I would say Burak(?).
D: (whispering) I have no idea.
B And they’re post punk with chorist guitars. But their drummer- It’s just a two piece band. A bass player and a guitar player, and their drummer is a little drum machine. It’s this big- that’s it. That’s awesome.
N: I feel like things were happening separately in the late 20th century, and then, because of the internet, it was able to all converge in the 2000’s and 2010’s. And now we’re seeing these really cool mash-ups. I feel like electronic is kind of what has been the-
B: Catalyst?
D: Yeah, it’s been incorporated into everything.
N: Yeah, it’s been incorporated into rap. It’s been incorporated into-
D: It’s been incorporated into pop. And rock
N: and rock. And, like, I hate that I’m about to say this, but it’s been incorporated into jazz. It’s- what’s it called- Electro-swing? I hate it. Worst genre.
D: Hey, let’s not talk about the swing revival.
N: Actually, nevermind. I love people who like Electro-swing. Remember, anti-cringe.
B: I’m cringing.
D: Okay no. No. Because here’s the problem, is every word of the band name Cherry Poppin’ Daddies is upsetting.
N: Anti-cringe. You know what? They do what they want.
D: No? No. No, I’m allowed to cringe at The Cherry Poppin’ Daddies, and I will reserve that fucking right.
N: Well, I’m gonna take back what I said. You know what? Electronic music has gone into everything and I think that’s fucking cool. And-
D: (singing) Zoot Suit Riot.
N: I don’t know what that is.
D: It’s a Cherry Poppin’ Daddies song. Quietly sings “Zoot Suit Riot”.
B: I don’t know the song. I don’t know- See, you like the Cherry Poppin’ Daddies.
D: I don’t actually, but I know that song.
N: Definitely correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like the pioneers of that were Hip Hop DJs and a lot of Japanese artists.
D: Yeah.
B: Sure, I have no idea.
D: The incorporation of electronica into other stuff.
N: Yeah, or just electronic milestones.
D: Sure, I’m not an expert so I’ll trust you. But anyway, Beto, you were talking about noise.
B: Yeah, anyway, and then we got real noisy with- you know, now that I’m talking out loud, I’m starting to realize grunge had a lot to do with this. Because when we were just talking about noise, it was this literal approach, just being noisy and loud, that Dinosaur Jr. brought during the 90’s, and they were just stupid loud. I saw them live- no, like, stupid loud, I mean it. They just have a wall of speakers. It’s just like you don’t need it, but you have it.
N: Shoutout Grateful Dead.
B: Yeah. Oh, Grateful did that? Damn.
N: They did it first.
B: It was fuckin insane. So I don’t know, I’m starting to think about that a little more now. The last band I wanted to talk about, in terms of Shoe-gaze- or I don’t even know what to call it. Sonic Youth, they break a lot of- I’m hyping them up too much. They broke a lot of rules, ya know? They didn’t really conform to a lot of stuff. They started really avant guarde, I would say. Avant garde, when they were like hella sweaty and hella trying to make a statement, ya know? Dude, they were sweaty.
D: I’m never heard someone call a band sweaty. I’ve only heard that referred to try-hard in video games.
B: That’s where it’s from, I don’t know. That’s where I learned it.
D: Oh, that’s so good. I’m gonna start calling musicians sweaty.
B: Yeah, they were hella sweaty. They’re cool, I still like them. They did what they did and it worked. On their first album, Kill Yr Idols, they already- that’s a very artsy name. “Damn, this kids are so fuckin tight,” ya know? I been a little shy around them.
D: (mocking) So fuckin artsy. There’s so many meanings.
B: “Can I have your autograph?” But anyway.
D: Anti-cringe who.
B: But uhm. Alright, they have a great song on their album Kill Yr Idols, it’s a very artsy, noisy- I’m sure there’s effects in it, but it’s called “Inhuman” and here it is.
(“Inhuman” by Sonic Youth plays
Instrumental)
B: Wasn’t that a little spooky? I thought it was a little spooky, but in a good way. What’d y’all think?
D: I like it. Something about Sonic Youth is just cool. I never really got into Sonic Youth at any point in my life, but they’re cool. They do kind of exist in this weird space, but they’re cool.
N: I like it too, but I would say- I guess I’ve heard a little bit more from that one album that people have T-shirts of. Meloncore also really likes it.
B: Damn. I’m all Meloncore today, damn.
D: We can never ever have you on the podcast again. I swear to god. Teenage Riot, I think is the album you’re referring to.
B: Oh, I like that one.
N: The black and white one that’s like a drawing?
B: Oh no, that’s Goo.
N: Oh yeah, Goo. That one- I liked that sound a little bit more, but maybe-
B: Me too.
N: Maybe I just need to listen a bit more- Sorry, what was that.
B: I was just gonna interject that that was their mainstream one. Cause they got a really good deal or something. I love that album too, but that’s why. Cause they went more pleasing, ya know?
D: More traditional alternative, sure. Cool.
B: I guess I said 3 bands. Should I say it? Alright, I’ll do it. I’ll make it quick. The Brian Jonestown Massacre. This revival of 60’s old, old retro music and bringing the flavor of now into it. They do a lot of great stuff with effects, everything. Songwriting. I hyped them up a little bit too much. But it is what it is.
D: I don’t think you do. They’re pretty good, actually.
B: They’re fuckin tight, alright? On their first album Methodrone, they were trying to go that- they were very inspired, in my opinion by Shoe-gaze. They changed their sound like every album. This first album- I actually bought their album Zero recently, but we’ll talk about that later. The first album, Methodrone was very inspired by that, and there’s this great song on there called “Wisdom”, and it’s all the vibes.
(“Wisdom” by The Brian Jonestown Massacre plays
Lyrics: If I thought I knew the reason
Why I've gone and fallen
In love with you
You're the one thing I believe in
And I know quite well
What I've got to do
First you say it's okay
Then you say there's no way)
B: Yeah, I would consider that Shoe-gaze. I don’t know, listeners or what you guys would think. It’s very sound-scapey, very repetitive.
D: Leave your answer in the comments below.
B: Leave your answer in the comments below. But yeah, I mean that’s all I got for today. It’s just a bit more of a- listen on your own and think about-
D: Play along at home.
B: Yeah, play along at home, exactly.
D: Sweet. So, we always like to talk about what we’ve been listening to recently. And we always want to share some new music, or music we’ve been into, all that kinda stuff. I’ll take the reins here. I, weirdly enough, I’ve been listening to a lot of pretty crunchy guitar oriented alternative rock, like Pixies and stuff like Sleater-Kinney, all kinda stuff. And I was like “I need something a little bit softer,” so I finally got around to checking out Sufjan Stevens.
N: Oooh yeah, I saw you listening to them, yahh.
D: Yeah, I really enjoy his music. It falls into that category of things I could never really pick out specific songs, but it’s a good just put it on, it’s just kind of there, hanging out with my good friends.
N: Very good soft boy music.
D: Yeah, the one song that I really wanted to highlight, though, is one of his more, if not the most popular songs, Chicago. Cause I think it’s a really unique and interesting song. I think it uses trumpet in a really interesting way. I think that is uses vocals in a really interesting way. It’s very coral. It’s very traditional, but it’s also very pop-y. So yeah, let’s check out a clip of “Chicago” by Sufjan Stevens.
(“Chicago” by Sufjan Stevens plays
Lyrics: You came to take us
All things go, all things go
To recreate us
All things grow, all things grow
We had our mindset
All things know, all things know
You had to find it
All things go, all things go)
D: I really enjoy this song in particular. It’s the intro to a show that I’ve been watching a lot recently, called The Politician, and it’s popped up in another show that I really like. Yeah. I just, I don’t know, I’ve been watching that show, and it’s the only show on Netflix that I always watch the intro to, cause it’s a cool intro and it’s a great song. So I was like “I should just go listen to that song.” And I’ve just been listening to it on repeat for the last two weeks. It’s a really cool song, please check it out. Please check out Sufjan Stevens. Beto, what are you doin?
B: I’ve been listening to Eyedress. They’re awesome. I’ve been listening, I guess, I don’t know, to a lot of it. I’ve especially been vibing to “Let’s Skip to the Wedding”, which is also the name of their new album that’s coming out, which is dope. But here’s a clip.
(“Let’s Skip to the Wedding” by Eyedress plays)
B: Yeah, I mean, I love the retro feel to it. I mentioned early I’m a fan of that. I’m actually in love with the synth that he uses. I’m guessing it’s a JX3P. It looks super cool, if you guys want to Google that, it looks super 80’s but super cool. It’s like a Juno, but. I want to get one of those. What about you, Nayeli?
N: Like I said earlier, I’ve been tryin to do music history research, or whatever. But I’ve been all over the place, like actually. But, more recently I’ve been listening to a lot of Vocaloid. BUT what I want to highlight is, yes, Hatsune Miku. So, kind of what I was talking about earlier, with noise music, but not just noisy music, but noise music, and what I kinda fell upon was, I guess what is considered kind of the father album. Or, like, one of the most iconic noise albums, which is Pulse Demon by Merzbow, who is a Japanese artist who makes his songs out of just anything. Just just just anything. And I actually liked this. I initially, when going into it, everybody’s gonna be like- or I guess the initial reaction for most people would be like “what the fuck is this? This is just noise”. Which, I mean, it is. But I do think what he does in this, even if it didn’t directly influence others, it definitely indirectly influenced a lot of what we’re talking about right now, in terms of that blending of electronic music with rock and all of that. So, definitely check that out, but I’m not gonna make you listen to it on this podcast, because that’ll probably hurt you. So instead, listen to this clip of Vocaloid.
(“The World is Mine” by Supercell, ft. Hatsune Miku plays)
B: Alright, and that wraps up this week’s episode of the Out of Phase podcast, presented by PSPS. Once again, I am Beto Carrasco.
D: I’m Drew Haevner.
B: And we’d like to thank our guest, Nayeli for being here again.
N: Ayee.
B: Thank you, thank you very much, thanks.
N: Yeah. Anti-cringe, people. Anti-cringe.
B: Alright. Catch y’all next time.
D: This is a fucking sonic medium. We’re peacin’ out.
Out of Phase Episode 11 : Halloween Special - The Delta Blues Devil
Out of Phase Episode 11 : Halloween Special - The Delta Blues Devil
Out of Phase Episode 11 Transcript
D=Drew
S=Storm
(music fades in)
D: Here's the real question... I don't remember how we used to start this show! (laughter) Here's the introduction...
(music dies down)
D: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Out Of Phase, presented by PSPS. It's been a minute (laughs) We're back, we're doing a new podcast, we got kinda burnt out, we kinda ran out of ideas. And, y'know, we're students, so- we're students. We have limited time. But, we wanted to do this again, we really enjoyed making it. But, we're changing it up a little bit. We wanted to change up the format. We wanted to change up the topics, so it's a little more viable for week to week stuff. Because I know personally, in hosting the first eriditation of this podcast, I struggled with coming up with a topic every week. Coming up with a song that I was passionate and nostalgic about every week was pretty difficult. So, we're gonna be doing this less frequently, we're gonna start off month to month, it might increase from there, it might not- it's kinda a test run right now. And instead of talking about stuff we're passionate about, we are gonna be talking about music history, so we're changing the format a little bit: we're changing the style, we're changing the frequency, we are gonna be releasing this, we're gonna start once a month, it's gonna come out the first weekday of the month, for this term, so we'll have this one, we'll have another one this term. And then we'll see, we might stay on the monthly schedule, we might move more towards biweekly. It depends on a couple of behind the scenes factors, and we're changing the topic, like I said, so we're gonna talk more about music history, instead of stuff that we're passionate about, because I, as the host of this show, really like music history. I find music history quite fascinating. And I like talking with my coworkers about it, and y'know, other people. So every month, I'll be the host, I'll have one of our coworkers, one of our friends, at PSPS, come on the show, and we'll talk about a piece of music history that we find interesting. This week, we've got a guest of ours, one of our coworkers, Storm Garrison. Hi Storm.
S: Hi.
D: How's it going?
S: Doing pretty good.
D: Nice. I'm wondering if you could maybe tell us what you do at PSPS, what's your job here?
S: Well, I mean, I guess technically, it's entry level, right? Sound technician, sort of.
D: Yeah.
S: I mean, I help assist setting up events. I've done a little lighting, but mostly it's running around and making things and plugging and unplugging cords in the right spots.
D: Nice.
S: And just at least for me, you know, I try to, I try to... provide some comedic relief. That's the reason I feel like that's an important part of my job.
D: Yes, correct. What kind of music are you into? What draws you to the music area, like area of work and stuff like that?
S: What draws me most is experiencing new things. I grew up almost entirely listening to rock and metal and that persisted mostly through high school. I got into a little rap and electronic, but over the past six, seven years, I've really, really just gotten into all kinds of music. It's just- it's just more that there's a filter. It's either I like it or I don't. But that's not dependent on the genre.
D: All right.
S: So basically everything, I feel like I have to explain, because I've known so many people that they're like, oh, I listen to everything, and all that means is they just aren't all that into music.
D: Yeah.
S: They're not, like, super easy for me. I'm always actively trying to find new things I haven't heard to listen to.
D: Sweet. Well, we're going to talk about something really cool this week. And we've- we've- Storm thought this was deliberate. And I just mentioned this to him. This is not delivered on my part, but we've kind of created a Halloween episode. You'll probably be listening to this in November because it'll come out on the second. But we're recording this on the twenty ninth. So a couple of days before Halloween, we're talking about this week: Robert Johnson, blues legend, with a very, very specific dark myth tied to him and how that kind of influenced rock from there on out, because Robert Johnson is someone that influenced rock on a musical level. But also this- this kind of urban legend around him influenced a lot of conceptions and like figures in rock and stuff like that. So Robert Johnson was a blues guitarist in the early nineteen hundreds. He is really widely known now as a master of the craft of Delta Blues and is- is someone that has had a lot of influence on early rock musicians, like members of the Rolling Stones and Jimi Hendrix and a lot of people in that era. But he wasn't very famous during his lifetime and really didn't become so until after his death in the mid nineteen thirties, if I'm not mistaken. But Johnson was born in Hazelhurst, Mississippi, in May of 1911. Some people put May 8th, but it seems pretty speculative. He was born actually out of wedlock to a woman who had cheated on her husband. And so he never actually knew his birth father growing up. He actually moved to Memphis, Tennessee, from Hazelhurst when he was pretty young, after his stepfather was forced out of town by a lynch mob due to some land dispute with white landowners in the area, which is pretty dark. And eventually his mother left his stepfather and remarried someone and they moved back to Mississippi. So we spent a lot of his childhood in Mississippi and a little bit in Arkansas, if I'm not mistaken, and in Memphis, Tennessee. So in the south, in the Louisiana region of the world at the time and still today, he also- I think it's kind of... evident, by that story he had not a great childhood. Like, it didn't seem like he got along great with his first step dad and certainly didn't with his second. So he had a rough childhood, but he learned to play the guitar a little bit, learned music from like his brothers. He was actually pretty good at the harmonica, which is something that I thought was interesting. So he actually learned to play the harmonica as a kid and continued to play it through his adulthood and was good at it.
S: I think the rough childhood probably makes sense as to why he gravitated more towards the blues, right?
D: Yeah, I mean, as much of the Delta Blues, which is that real sad, slow stuff.
S: Yeah.
D: Yeah. So when Johnson was in his 20s, a relatively famous blues musician named Son House moved to the area of Mississippi that he was from and would play in like local venues and stuff like that with his musical partner at the time. And Johnson, would watch this, because he loved music, he loved the blues. And I thought this is kind of funny. In between sets, he would ask Son if he could play his guitar, like just play around with it, and somehow Son seemed like a pretty nice guy, so he would like, let him. And I heard this old, old, old recording probably from like the 50s or 60s or something like that of Son House describing Johnson playing his guitar at the time. And he was like- he was awful. He was so bad. Like he- (laughs) he would play it and people would be like, can you get him to stop playing it? It's so embarrassingly bad.
S: Wow.
D: Yeah. It was pretty brutal the way he described- this old, old man at the time of the recording describing how... how Robert Johnson in his early 20s was just a terrible, terrible guitarist.
S: I wonder if it was just bad or if it was bad because it was different. You know, like if it was awful or just stylistically not like...
D: Well, I mean, if you think about it, Son House is also a Delta blues guitarist. So it must have been similar to some extent, but-
S: I would think so.
D: Yeah. It seemed that people in these venues really, really did not think that Johnson was a great guitarist and... Which is interesting because, you know, he ends up being this like master of the discipline, right? Like this... this person that posthumously everyone looks towards.
S: Yeah, it reminds me a bit of one of the greatest electric bassists is Victor Wooten. And Victor Wooten was taught by his brother how to play the bass. And Victor taught his brother how to play the electric guitar. So it's funny because Victor is one of the greatest electric bassists, at least temporarily. Right. And his brother is just an awful, like, god awful guitarist and really funny.
D: That's so good. So after, you know, this thing with Johnson, where he would come and see these shows and, you know, mess around on the guitars and stuff like that, and people would complain he kind of disappeared from the area for a couple of years. No one really knows what he was doing. He was kind of a mysterious guy as well. People don't really know a lot about him. And actually there's only two like, actual photos that are verified to be of him, which I found pretty interesting.
S: Really.
D: So, yeah, there's only two of them. And if you've ever seen them, one of the things... total tangent, but I always think about this when I think of Johnson is that some people think he had what's called Marvin's syndrome, which makes you really tall and skinny with like super long limbs and like long appendages and stuff like that. So in these pictures of him, he has these like, monstrously long fingers, like these like really long, really thin fingers that make it look like it would probably like affect his ability to play the guitar or like his way of playing the guitar. But if you never seen what he looks like, Google Robert Johnson, there's only two real pictures of him.
S: I'm looking at the picture right now.
D: Yeah, look him up now. His fingers. Tell me about his fingers, Storm.
S: I've seen pictures of him before but I hadn't really keyed in on it until now that you mention it... Yeah, his fingers, they remind me of a friend of mine who's also an insane guitarist.
But as far as I know, doesn't have Marvin's syndrome. He just has a disproportionately long arms and fingers,
D: Right. Yeah. And my understanding is that Johnson is a pretty tall, skinny guy as well. So that could lead to that hypothetical diagnosis or whatever. But anyway, yeah, he was a big, tall, skinny guy with big, big hands and long fingers.
S: Kinda like spider legs. They remind me almost of spider legs.
D: This is what my dad has told me about Robert Johnson, is that he had like spider leg hands. This is why I know about this. And my dad told me about this. But yeah. So anyway, he disappeared for a couple of years. Kind of a weird, mysterious guy, not a ton known about him. Some people think that, in this time, he was going to try to find his birth father? I'm not sure, it seems like people don't really know. But he came back after these like twoish years to where Son House was playing and was a master guitarist. In two years... just better than Sun House. Amazing prodigy at the guitar.
S: Totally out of nowhere, huh?
D: Yeah. I mean, in two years. Right? Like, that's that's crazy.
S: Yeah.
D: And so this is where we get into the thing that makes this kind of a Halloween episode, because: in the 70s, people were trying to figure out how you could do how you could go away for two years being totally terrible to guitar and then all of a sudden come back and be a literal master guitarist. In the 1970s, a rumor appeared to explain this, like I'm saying, and the story goes that Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil so that he could be good at the guitar. Which is crazy, like that's that's a wild rationalization of that, but here's the full story of it. So apparently one night somewhere in this area in Mississippi, Tennessee, Arkansas, a kind of area, the country. Johnson goes out to a crossroads at midnight and is playing his guitar, and at midnight, the devil shows up and it's like it basically offers him this deal. So the devil tunes his guitar and plays a song and then hands the guitar back to Johnson. And in accepting that guitar, he agrees to a contract. That contract being: You become a master guitarist, you become this prodigy, but I own your soul now and you will die an untimely death. Obviously, this came away after the fact. This idea, this story shows up like 50 years after Johnson's death, but Johnson's death was in the 30s at the age of twenty seven. So
S: He did die young.
D: He died really young. He died, you know, only a couple of years after he comes back as this amazing guitarist. So that coupled with the fact that apparently, you know, like eyewitness accounts or whatever, people said that his personality changed, that he became like angry and upset and just a kind of moody guy.
S: I do think, what I have learned about Johnson previously was that he I don't know if it's speculation or if it is confirmed, but I think he was- he had some substance abuse problems-
D: Yeah, that's another thing I've heard as well.
S: He was an alcoholic.
D: Like after he had come back.
S:Yeah. So maybe that was also tied into it.
D: I mean, one of the things about Johnson is like, if you really look at it, I not to be like a reductionist and reduce it down to like one idea, but his life seemed pretty rough, like it seemed like it sucked quite a bit. But other than his skill on the guitar, he seemed like he had a shit upbringing, despite the fact that he was an amazing guitarist, really gained nothing out of it. He went to two recording sessions to record some stuff. There's only like twenty nine songs of his that ever were recorded.
S: Which makes it even more impressive, just how influential it's been when there's examples like Jimi Hendrix.
D: Exactly. Exactly.
S: It's such a small repertoire to pull from, but they're so different from what was being done at the time. They just influenced so many things.
D: So Johnson supposedly sells the soul of the devil, comes back as a master guitarist, records some songs, goes on a little bit of kind of a tour up to the Chicago area of the country and then dies a couple of years later at the age of twenty seven. And he's also- The first, like, listed member of the idea of the Twenty Seven Club. And if you're not familiar with the Twenty Seven Club, the Twenty Seven Club is this idea that like a bunch of really talented, mostly musicians, but some other artists as well, die at the age of twenty seven. And that's Johnson is the first one. But that also includes Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, Amy Winehouse, Janis Joplin, Brian Jones, Jim Morrison. Like, it's a pretty long list of people.
S: That's how I know I'm not that talented, because I just turned twenty eight this year in September. So I was, I was just reading and I was like damn missed my chance to be an amazing influential artist. I've waited too long now.
D: Y'know, I might- I might die at 27? I probably won't. I'm not that talented. But anyways, he's like the first, like, popular figure in that, chronologically speaking, in that group to die at twenty seven. Obviously that's likeThe thing I think I want to acknowledge about this is like it is not a very well sourced piece of history, if that makes sense, like it's not well documented, especially the idea of him selling his soul to the devil. And one of the things about this story that I always like, I think it's interesting, obviously, and it's this like great, like, urban legend, pop culture. And it's also a play on the, like, Faustian legend: If a man sells a soul to the devil to get something from the devil. But if you really think about it, right, believing this story would require A: excusing that it's not very well sourced. B: believing in the devil, which some people do. Some people don't, and C: Believing that if there is a devil, he comes to Earth to make bargains with individuals for whatever reason, right?
S: Yeah, right. To add onto that just a bit, I do think, of course, you know, not trying to present this from the standpoint of like, oh, it's totally true, but it's always fun. It's always fun to speculate.
D: Yeah, right.
S: And it is always funny when you think like,taking the twenty seven club as an example: It seems like whenever you do talk about the occult or something related, there is all these weird coincidences that somehow line up in a way that makes it seem like there could be more to the story.
D: Right.
S: And that doesn't make anything true. But it's interesting, right?
D: And that's what sells the story, too. But the thing with Johnson that to me is almost a little heartbreaking is that for most people, if they know who Johnson is, which a lot of people probably don't- I mean, those people who are interested in music history probably do. But for most people, Robert Johnson is not prodigal guitarist- or, you know, like amazing master guitarist Robert Johnson. He's that guy who sold his soul to the devil to be really good at guitar, Robert Johnson. And yeah, if you think about it, it's probably more likely that he was just really dedicated to learning how to be a good guitarist. So, you know, assuming he's probably spent those two years traveling, he spent those two years becoming an amazing guitarist. So it's really sad that his legacy is... This urban legend, instead of the fact that it follows from reason that he would have had to have been like an incredibly smart, talented, dedicated person to be able to accomplish that feat.
S: Right.
D: That's the thing for me, like, it's a great urban legend and it's a great, spooky story, but it's also like he actually did for real, learn how to play the guitar really well, aside from any sort of occult thing. So, like, he probably taught himself how to play the guitar very, very well. And that's not his legacy. Right?
S: Yeah. I mean, you'd think after being embarrassed to the point- you would think... Obviously, he must have taken that quite to heart when people were saying they didn't want him to play on the stage anymore or whatever, if he got wind of it. And I would say that makes sense, that he would kind of go into a sort of shell and not interact with the outside world until he felt he was ready to prove what he was capable of.
D: Totally. It's a shame that- he's not able to see the influence that he's had on music because it's an immense influence, because... he's one of those people. I'm wearing my Pixie's T-shirt today and they kind of are a good example of this as well. Like, he's one of those artists that they themselves were not super popular, but they inspired people that became immensely, like, massive successes. This guy inspired Jimi Hendrix and the Rolling Stones. Like if you just inspired those two groups of people, you would have done a great service to the world. But like, he's more than that. So I think that it's sad. You know, it's kind of like Van Gogh, right? Like he became this really famous artist posthumously. And it sucks he wouldn't have ever been aware of that. So, like. I love this urban legend, but I also love remembering that, like Robert Johnson is someone who is very talented.
S: And way ahead of his time, with that talent.
D: Exactly. So Storm, I want you to tell me a little bit more about the influence that this urban legend and Robert Johnson had on music towards the modern day.
S: So one thing or a few things I should say to add to this, this legend of Robert Johnson selling a soul that I find particularly interesting. One thing from my own personal interests, since I was a child, I've always had a pretty large interest in the occult to some extent. Like, I found it interesting, not necessarily believe everything. I have some of my beliefs and I reject a lot of other things out there, right? But I find it interesting at its core, real or not. So one thing that I am familiar with is the legend of Crossroads Demons in general, and it sometimes is presented as the Devil. And there's a lot of other cultures that have similar myths, like I can't remember the name of the figure, but there's like a Haitian one, for instance. But there's a lot of similarities and it's not necessarily always the devil. Sometimes it's just a specific type of demon like under the Devil or dark or whatever you want to say command. And they go specifically to Crossroads. And like the legend around Robert Johnson ties into that because you go there after and about midnight, I think is the time when the clock strikes, a demon will appear. And you can sign this contract, like you stated earlier, where you sell your soul in exchange for something... So a wish of some sort or skills or car, or whatever you want. But the caveat is that they get control of your soul. And if you don't return to give them your soul, they will send a hellhound to chase and take your soul from you by force if you don't ever if you don't try to hold up your end of the contract. So one thing that adds to this Robert Johnson myth is a few of his songs are coincidentally right, but themed very much. He has a song called Me and the Devil Blues. Yeah, that's pretty explicitly related to what we're talking about, one called Crossroad Blues. Now, of course, Crossroads or- it doesn't mean it has a relation, but it's interesting and I think the most interesting one is Hellhound On My Tail. So you take those three things and it's easy to see where the myth comes from.
D: Yeah, exactly.
S: And it makes it more fun. You're like, wait, but... he was he had a song about hellhounds, and the Crossroads, and the Devil.
D: Here's the thing, in you describing that: my reaction is like to rationalize it, obviously, because I tend to do that. And my first thought is, well, OK, like that kind of iconography is really synonymous with Delta Blues. But the thing that I don't know is if that is because of Johnson's legacy or if that is something that has just been in Delta blues music. I don't know much about the Delta Blues, but like, I associate that kind of iconography with that kind of music. So I'm wondering if that's Johnson's legacy or if that's like...
S: It's sort of like a chicken and the egg. What came first?
D: Yeah, that's funny. I didn't research his music, other than just kind of like, listening to it while we were doing the research, so. Yeah, that's really funny that those lineup, so, so perfectly,
S: Exactly. It's like what I was talking about: the weird occurrences, coincidences that somehow always come into play when we're talking about the occult or something that adds to the fun, like the Twenty Seven Club. And this Robert Johnson, it's interesting.
D: I think it's interesting because when I hear this story, it doesn't strike me as a like, "Oh, no, spooky man sold his soul to the devil," it sounds kind of... very badass, a little bit. I think it depends on your perspective, on your belief in this kind of stuff. But I, I think that this idea of like, oh, you sold your soul to the devil to be like a sick ass guitarist? That's pretty fucking cool.
S: Pretty metal, right?
D: Exactly, right? That idea persists. That idea still persists in rock music and... Storm, You're going to tell us a little bit more about that idea. But first, I'm going to tell everyone a little bit more about what's going on at Portland State and what is doing right now. So let's do that.
[music intermission]
D: So despite the fact that we're in a pandemic, Portland State Professional Sound, along with some of our partners, are still trying to hold events virtually, of course, because we want to be safe. And we are doing that by continuing our Parkway North Project event series throughout the kingdom. So if you're not familiar with the Parkway North Project, it is a joint venture by Portland State Programming Board KSU, which is our college radio, and Fifth Avenue cinema, which is our on campus student run cinema. We put on weekly events on Thursdays and have a variety of things throughout the term. Usually they're put on by one of us, like one of our groups, and it's kind of thematic. But we also do a lot more large scale group events where we collaborate and work on one. So, you know, during the school year, this would be our Portland State of Mind concert or like a large concert in the winter, stuff like that. If you're not familiar with it, you should go check it out once we get back on campus. But in the meantime, you should also come to our fall term lineup. So I'm going to talk a little bit about the events we've got going on through the rest of November so that you're more aware of them. So on week six, which is the event's going to be on the 5th of November, we have an event hosted by Portland State Programming Board called Data Privacy Part Two. I didn't know there was a part one, but I assume this is an event where you're going to talk a little bit about data privacy. Pretty cool. On the seventh week, on the 12th specifically, we're hosting an open mic night via Zoom. Anyone who's Portland State Community is welcome to come. It's just going to kind of be a place to hang out and chill and perform whatever you want to perform, poetry, music, that kind of stuff. We'll try to make it through the lag of Zoom and all that weirdness and stuff like that, and will actually be hosted by myself, yours truly. The eighth week, Portland State Programming Board is going to hold an event called Exploring Oregon's Racist History. I think that should be super interesting. It'll be really interesting to talk about, especially because of, you know, we're on what the university frequently calls stolen land. So I think it's a really probably very intellectually worthwhile conversation. Following that, week nine; completely different tone, we're watching Grease, I guess, the movie. That's hosted by 5th Ave. I love Grease. I think it's a great musical. I come from theater, so I'm a little biased. But yeah, Grease Netflix party on week nine, that's the 26th. You can find more information about this on all of our individual Instagrams. This poster should be posted on those Instagrams. If it's not already, it should within the coming months. So, that's our Parkrun North Project lineup for the rest of the month. Another thing we've been doing during the pandemic, our production manager, Violet Gibson, has been hosting a show on our Instagram called Behind the Music. She's been talking to local artists, having them do kind of interviews, some performance type stuff. It's really interesting. It's really cool to see local artists. It's giving them an outlet to do stuff right now when there's not really any venues that are open. So you can check that out on our Instagram, which is PSProSound, our profile picture has our logo, PSPS. And that's where you also can find information about this show, about Behind The Music, about Parkway North Project, and any of our upcoming projects or events, stuff like that. Go ahead and check it out on our Instagram.
(end of ad)
D: Storm, I want to know more about Robert Johnson's legacy. I want to know more about the legacy of this urban legend. So what do you have for me? What can you tell me about that?
S: So, I did some digging because, like I said, I'd grown up mostly on rock and classic rock and metal and classic metal.
D: Ooh, variety!
S: Well, there were also blues and other things, but that was like the real meat and potatoes, as I say. So I was really interested in this personally and also because, I realized I just didn't know where the history of the occult themes being very pervasive in metal and harder versions of rock that led into metal kind of came from. And what I found was not necessarily tied to Robert Johnson directly, however, there is a little crossover. So, for instance, you mentioned earlier that Robert Johnson was a big influence on the Rolling Stones and Jimi Hendrix, for example.
Well, it turns out that I wouldn't say it correlated one to one, but the Rolling Stones did release a song in 1968 that is called Sympathy for the Devil.
D:Right.
S: And it doesn't use the devil necessarily from a dark occult standpoint that we're probably more accustomed to at this point. It tells the story of different traumatic events in humanity's history through the perspectives of the devil and so on, and it's more like a song you're supposed to kind of relate with them, you know, and see things maybe from his point of view and so on. So that might be one of the first references in contemporary music. I guess I would still consider that contemporary. It's not really that far off in the span of music
D: You're making anyone who listens to this podcast that's older than 30 feel really old, by the way,
S: I suppose.
D: "I guess the Rolling Stones are contemporary music!"
S: Well, I don't know what's considered- I consider myself kind of an oldhead, so I'm not sure.
D: I get you.
S: Anyway, but the first, what's credit is the first significant reference to Satan from the standpoint of like a cult or dark factor, to use that kind of imagery to create a certain feel in the song of being dark or evil or in any word you want to throw in there, is actually a band that I maybe had heard of before called Coven. Which was an American band actually based out of Chicago. And their debut album in 1969 was called Witchcraft Destroys Minds and Souls. So they were the first band that's believed to have used really occult imagery and themes in their music to get that specific response of like, wow, this is dark. This is scary. This is different. This is shocking. Right? They're also the first band credited with the iconic hand sign that's known amongst metalheads and rock of raising the horns, of this is a podcast, so you can't see it. But yeah, I think most people would know. But if they don't, it's the I Love You symbol in hand sign language. But then you cross the thumb over the middle finger.
D: Can you give me, like, a nice, like, NPR style description?
S: You raise the index finger and the pinky straight into the air while simultaneously keeping your middle two fingers curled in. Then you take your thumb and place it over the two curled in fingers and raise it as horns in the heavens, I suppose that's how I'd do it.
D: (laughs) Yeah, I suppose.
S: So, Coven was the first band who did that, at least as far as records show. Y'know, photographs and stuff. They have photographs that were used in conjunction with the album dated back to 1968. I did see mention of it being used in 1968 Beatles, actually? The Yellow Submarine. But who knows if it was? The intention was totally different and I think, you know, but it's credited more to Coven.
D: The Beatles don't really particularly scream like satanic imagery to me, especially Yellow Submarine, of all albums.
S: No, but they did come up in some of my research. Nothing specific, but they did involve some occult like they- They meditate, they learn specific types of meditation with a yogi of the time. And kind of brought a little bit of that influence in there. What part of contemporary music did they not influence as far as rock goes, anything, you know? But anyway, Dio continued to make it more popular. Its popularity really surged after Ronnie James Dio became the singer of Black Sabbath after 1979 when Ozzy Osborne left that band and he would use the devil horns in an attempt to connect with the crowd and his fans, more like Ozzy did. But Ozzy used the peace sign, and he didn't want to just copy Ozzy and make it seem like he was imitating him too much, y'know, to fill the shoes. So he did it. So he himself doesn't claim that he started it, but he definitely was instrumental in making it as popular as it is and as iconic as it is today. So. Also on that note, Gene Simmons, the bassist of KISS, he tried to trademark the hand sign in 2017.
He tried to trademark it.
D: He did?!
S: Now I heard previously-
D: Sweet Jesus.
S: -somewhere, that he was not the coolest guy. And I don't remember why, but this tells me that that might have had some truth to it. So he tried to copyright like a hand sign. Imagine somebody copyrighting the peace sign.
D: Right. That's like his whole gimmick, though, in KISS, though. Like he's the demon, correct? He's that character.
S: I think so. I've never been a big Kiss fan. I mean, I do think it's Gene Simmons' character, the shock rock theme.
D: I'll Google it.
S: While you look at that... So the singer of Coven actually, Jinx Dawson, at the time that their first album came out in 1969 she was a teenager from Indiana, which I thought kind of surprising. Not that there's anything wrong with Indiana. I've lived there. Most of my relatives are from there. It's just not necessarily what you expect for this huge occult theme to just come from a teenager from Indiana.
D: Simmons is the demon, by the way. Also, fun fact: Gene Simmons birth name is Haim Witts.
S: Interesting.
D: Actually probably Haim Vitts.
S: Haim Vitts. Throwin' fits. Over not being able to copyright raising the horns.
D: Nailed it.
S: So Jinx, Jinx Dawson actually, this- again, the singer of Coven, who herself kind of pioneered using raising the horns. She threatened to sue him for trying to sue, for trying to copyright it-
D: Amazing.
S: -on behalf of all music fans, because she stated it was intended to be used for everyone by everyone.
D: She's truly the Jonas Salk of music.
S: Yeah. And I thought that was kind of interesting, but so more to the history: So Coven wasn't a metal band, they were a psychedelic rock primarily, but they were the first in that genre to really bring in the real heavy themes of the occult. And it came from James Nelson's background. Her family, apparently for generations, had been members of different secret societies. Oh. And could be traced back to the Mayflower Compact and other things that for generations they had been involved in the occult and, you know, subculture, counterculture kind of beliefs and secret societies. And they had taught her all about this, of course, naturally. And so she grew up being really interested in investment. So they brought it into their music as Coven because they wanted to; she wanted to be able to express both her musical side cause like- she was a great pianist, too. So she'd been raised playing piano, and she wanted to incorporate her musical side with this family history of dealing with the occult and secrecy and stuff. So, that first album, the last song on the album is a 13 minute musical- Well, it's not that musical. It's, I'm trying to think... rendition isn't the right word, but it's an auditory demonstration of a black mass, which is a gathering of satanic origin for worshipping the devil. So it's 13 minutes of chants and satanic prayers...
D: Interesting. Speaking in tongues and stuff like that.
S: Exactly. Comprised from different sources like books and her own knowledge and so on, so forth. So that was on there. And another fun fact to that album, I found, is: Kurt Cobain and Nirvana have said, they said in a 1990 interview that Witchcraft Destroys Minds and Souls, Coven's debut album, they would listen to while traveling between tour spots.
D: That's so cool.
S: Right. And I listened to the album while I was doing this research, and it was kind of interesting. I was more in tune to what I was reading, so I'd have to give it a real listen. But there's definitely some different things that were that were incorporated other than just the imagery in their sound. So, again, all these weird coincidences with the occult. So they weren't they were they were psychedelic rock with this, but they weren't the first metal band. The first band that's really considered by most to be the first true metal band is, of course, Black Sabbath. Ozzy Osborn's bands. Well, original bands. So, what's funny about the Coven album is it came out in 1969. In 1970 was when Black Sabbath released their debut album, Black Sabbath.
D: Hmm, original. It's a good album.
S: Where the weird coincidence comes into play is the first song on Coven's album is titled Black Sabbath. Oh, and furthermore, their bassist Greg Osborn is credited on the album to his nickname Oz. So it says Black Sabbath is the title as the first track and then in the credits as Oz Osborn.
D: That's so odd.
S: Isn't it? This is what I was saying earlier, where there's just all these weird coincidences that make thinking about and talking about these things even more fun because it's like, hmm, you know, you just raise an eyebrow.
D: Right.
S: Probably means nothing, totally random.
D: Total coincidence, right.
S: It's weird how so many random things can somehow fit like dominoes.
D: And this is not a conspiracy theory show, but I just want to now hear you tell me about conspiracy theories.
S: Sure. Maybe another time, but, I find that really interesting and... Supposedly, they hadn't heard anything, there is some ties between their owning labels having been kind of in business, but I genuinely think it is just one of those...
D: Super crazy coincidences.
S: You know, just, really, because I looked into the history of Black Sabbath and why they named their band Black Sabbath, and they were originally called Tofel Polk and the Blues or the Tocal Polk Blues, something like that. Then they changed their name-
D: That's a crazy name.
S: Right? They're from Birmingham, UK. So they I don't know where that new came from, but then they switched the name to Earth and played some shows. Ozzy, as currently stated, he hated that name. But there was another band around about the same time that they were starting to emerge as a force in music, who was also known as Earth. So they didn't want to have the same name, didn't want to be associated with them, all that jazz. And they were outside of a venue, where across the street, there was a cinema playing a I think originally an Italian film, that's like a little horror compilation film, that's called Black Sabbath. And their bassist, Geezer, was marveling and mentioned to the band how interesting it was that so many people would stand in line and pay money, to be frightened. They thought that was kind of, you know, like that's kind of funny, like, interesting, right?
D: I agree, actually. That's insane.
S: It's interesting. And fun fact about that movie: Black Sabbath actually inspired Quentin Tarantino to write Pulp Fiction because he wanted Pulp Fiction to follow a similar kind of narrative style.
D: Interesting.
S: Yeah, totally weird. But I thought that was interesting enough to mention. So they saw that and they had been experimenting with their sounds some. And one thing that's unfortunate towards Coven, where they were the origin of this cult theme being pervasive in rock and metal, similar to Robert Johnson, they're not very well known. And a big part of that is because after their initial album came out in 1969, that was right around the time frame that the Manson murders scare was happening. And for any listeners not familiar, I don't think I should explain the whole thing. But look it up, you'll find information instantly. The Manson murders, basically Charles Manson, very influential figure in Hollywood and California, had a cult. The Manson family.
D: I was going to say cult leader is more right.
S: But it was very, I mean, it was awful what the things they did. And so it's understandable there was a nationwide scare about this kind of thing. And they were very associated with the occult and stuff right at the same time. So there was a picture that came out during the scare of Charles Manson outside in L.A. record store holding a copy of Coven's debut album.
D: Oh, no. Shit.
S: So people made this conclusion that they were connected, although the band states they never knew Manson, they had no connection to them. But the association was there. The album actually ended up being pulled off the market for many years. And because of that and Black Sabbath's rise right around the same time frame, even though they aren't directly related, other than just having similar interests, I suppose. They were the ones who- it's not that they got credit and Coven doesn't for the same thing. Coven really introduced the occult into rock and made it more pervasive. Black Sabbath created the genre of metal pretty much. So they just it's not a matter of one having credit for something else. Somebody did, as more weirdly, two things kind of combined separately at the same time and created what we know now.
D: Right. Except for Gene Simmons trying to take credit because fuck Gene Simmons, I guess.
S: No, let's punk them all day. I don't know if he's done anything else. Maybe he's a super nice guy outside of that, I honestly don't know, but trying to copyright a hand sign? That's asinine.
D: It's ridiculous.
S: That is asinine. So anyway, back to what I was saying about Sabbath. Right. So, Black Sabbath decided that they wanted to change their sound, they were experimenting with things and they wrote a song that they named after the movie and the little experience that they had with that, where they had experimented with a darker sound, they incorporated tri tones, which is known as the devil's interval classically, because way back when if you played that interval, you could be put to death because it was so dissonant, right? I can't think of the word, but it's a really dissonant sound. And so that was considered bad in medieval times. So if you did that, you might get your head chopped off because it's associated with the devil. Right? Fun stuff, those medieval times. So they used tri-tones. And they named that song Black Sabbath. Both because of the little experience with the movie and supposedly their bassist had had a vision of a black silhouetted figure at the foot of his bed right around that time. And they just- they just kind of ran with it. They really wanted this darker sound and liked it. And they thought there would be a really good market for it based on horror movies.
D: And Coven.
S: Well, they didn't know about Coven.
D: Oh, right. Yeah, just based on horror movies, yeah.
S: So they named their band when they wanted to change from Earth, because again, they didn't want to be associated with the other band named that. So they named themselves after the song that they composed that changed their sound. And they continued on with that sound to to be the band that is known today as the founders of Metal. So they're not the only ones. There's definitely plenty of other players in the game, so to speak, like Alice Cooper is a really good mention. He started up and didn't get popularity right away. His popularity came more towards the latter half of the 70s. But he used- he incorporated occult themes as a gimmick. Mostly, Cooper and his band realized that the concept of a male playing the role of a villain, a woman killer, in tattered women's clothing, wearing makeup, would cause social controversy and get headlines. And they really wanted attention because they had been playing in California for a while and not been getting good reception. They moved back to Detroit, where I believe Cooper, or that's not his born name, but he did adopt that name later on- was from originally and they were able to stand out more in a market that wasn't so associated with, like the hippie peace and love culture and stuff. And they were big and influential as a part of that glam rock, sort of, that Kiss is a part of too. They then kind of inspired more hair metal and like a lot of glam rock and so on. But Black Sabbath really did start metal.
D: Yeah.
S: And I thought maybe there would be a lot more to it, but it's kind of that simple. It seems there's, I mean, there's not a lot of scholarly research done in the topic and not a lot of reviewed articles. I did find a book called Season of the Witch that I'm interested in reading. And there were a few articles. I mean, when I originally typed in Google, you know, the history of devil themes in metal, it was like a bunch of Christian and other religious websites.
D: Right.
S: Being negative towards the music and stating why it was bad and so on.
D: I wonder if that Season of the Witch book is a reference to the Donovan song Season of the Witch
S: It could be. But so, what's interesting as well, and does still tie to Robert Johnson, Robert Johnson, big, huge, influence for Jimi Hendrix. As one example in the Rolling Stones... some of the artists that influenced Black Sabbath really heavily, Jimi Hendrix, Cream, who was a band, from Eric Clapton, or had Eric Clapton as a member.
D: Associated, yeah. Who- Eric Clapton, is someone who is credited Johnson as a major inspiration.
S: Right. And Led Zeppelin.
D: Yep.
S: And Led Zeppelin is- They were not metal, but they are very much in part responsible for the molding of harder rock into metal. It's just that, like I was saying, it's kind of weird and nebulous in some sense, but it's pretty simple, right? Like they helped inspire a dark- a heavier sound. Black Sabbath was inspired by these horror themes and kind of ran with that. And then that got some popularity. And other artists like KISS and Alice Cooper saw the value in shock factor or- or y'know, a more contemporary example, Marilyn Manson, who did it explicitly to be very, in the face of people who didn't-
D: Provocative.
S: Right. Yeah. That's the perfect word.
D: Yeah. I think it's really interesting because, like, these things I think largely do- or not necessarily largely, but- I do think a lot of these can be traced back to Johnson and the legend about Robert Johnson. Like you just did it basically. You were like, all right. Black Sabbath was inspired by this person who was inspired by this person, who was inspired by Johnson. Like, even if that is more of a musical inspiration, I feel that the idea of devil worship or selling your soul to the devil or the occult, broadly speaking, seeing how Johnson became famous to people who weren't musicians because of that myth like that- that is an easy jump to make, like, oh, OK, well, maybe that'll work for us. You know, like those ideas work in music, broadly speaking, and rock.
S: And did you say earlier that the myth probably came up about during the 70s?
D: Yeah, wasn't around the time he died, to my understanding, and was around the like the 60s, 70s...
S: Right, and that- that's the exact time frame, 1969 through the mid to late 70s when these cult themes...
D: Exactly
S: ...and pervasive evil and dark, dark things like molded rock, and changed it- Some people think it saved the genre in some ways because it changed its sound. Like, I know that if it weren't for the British invasion, a lot of people think rock and roll as a genre would have just dead stopped, been like, done. But it's just it's kind of interesting, like how all of these things-
D: Kinda seem to tie back.
S: Seem to be related. But I mean, it doesn't not make sense. Right? It's music. Music begets music, right.? But it's just funny, right? This British invasion, and then Black Sabbath wasn't part of that. I don't think Black Swan is considered part of the British invasion.
D: No, it's like the Stones and-
S: But they came after that, inspired by some of that, were a British band, who then became the pioneers of metal, and that was introduced by an American band, of all things, and stuff is just really weird.
D: Yeah. It seems that one of the things that's really- I love tracing these themes through, like,the complicated, nebulous web of music and in different time periods and stuff. But it's interesting how pervasive the theme of the occult is in a lot of rock like- it travels from blues to rock, to hard rock and into things like punk, like if you think about the Misfits, for example, a very, very influential old punk band from the 80s, their whole shtick is like dark skulls, you know, greasy hair and black makeup and stuff like that. So like it's not really explicitly the occult the way that Black Sabbath is, but, it still takes a lot of tonal notes from things like that.
S: It's part of the whole desire to set yourself apart from normal society and be a subculture that is part of it. I mean, if you look at, like, early, I think, well, literally their first album, Black Salblawth- Black Sabbath, not-
D: That's my favorite album, the Black Sawlbith.
S: Back Sawlbuck.
(laughter)
S: I mean, critically, it was torn apart.
D: Really?
S: The critics at the time were like, what is this garbage, pretty much. But despite that, it was popular because people really liked this different and darker sound because it was, y'know, different. And not everybody can claim to be, but plenty of us like things that are different or show us something we're not familiar with. But since it's old and then molded, it just continued to be that way. And then it's just kind of become ingrained in such a way that you can't take it apart. And like you're saying that with the skulls of them, it's not necessarily a cult, but it is-
D: It's just dark.
S: It's like it's cut from the same cloth. It's just like, look, look at me. I'm different. You're happy over there. I'm sad, you know? I mean, it's just like, to really reduce it-
D: Yeah, it's- yeah. And if you reduce it that way to just this idea of dark, like there is this like dark variant of all rock, I feel like. Like you've got my- my go to is always to think about punk music because I find that very fascinating. But you've got a band like The Clash who aren't really a dark band. They're more political than anything. And a lot of punk bands from the era are. But then you also have Misfits who are I'm not a big Misfits scholar or anything, but my understanding is that they're more dark, like, you know, and that, you know, even traces into grunge, like not just not even occult at all, but like really dark, upsetting things. Like Nirvana has a song called Rape Me, like that's really upsetting. The Pixies, like the shirt I'm wearing right now, that you can see, Storm, all of their music is really dark and upsetting. Like that's their schtick, you know.
S:Yeah. And it's funny that you mentioned grunge because actually, a lot of people think that Black Sabbath was very influential into the creation of grunge. Well, of course, their music wasn't grunge, but part of that sound was borrowed and used in its own way to become grunge. And the whole- the blues connection to one thing that I didn't mention earlier was I did say that Coven was more on the psychedelic rock spectrum, but psychedelic rock, or at least their version of it, was very heavily inspired by blues. I mean, look at Jimi Hendrix, right. And a lot of the blues that inspired it goes back to the Delta Blues of Robert Johnson and the whole thing, the way that things aren't necessarily like, met face to face, but come up about the same time- It reminds me of this theory that my guitar teacher had. And I've never been able to explain it quite as well as he could. But the general idea was that like these ideas that are very influential and change things, right, like new genres of music or Microsoft or something, right? Like the universe itself, kind of it's almost like they're like radio waves, right, like some sort of waveform that's sent out by the universe. And like by that notion, it's going to happen at some point. Like it's something that humanity or whatever is meant to do. But the people who end up doing it, they just happen to have, so to speak, their brains are calibrated to the right signal or the right frequency. And they're the ones that that it comes to- just like- like I said: Coven, Black Sabbath; not related, but somehow, right in the same year it all culminated to form what we see now.
D: Yeah, well, this has been a really interesting conversation. Basically, to sum it up, Robert Johnson is the reason that grunge exists, right?. Like, that's that's the main takeaway, right?
S: Yeah, exactly.
D: Thank you very much for tuning in to another episode of Out of Phase. I'm glad we're back. Thank you, Storm, for coming on and talking about the devil with me for like, forty five minutes.
S: Thanks for letting me. Thanks for letting me talk about one of my favorite bands.
D: Yes. Because that's the real reason that we do this show, is that so I can talk about my favorite bands and give other people a chance to under the guise of some sort of, like educational pod-. No, I'm kidding.
S: Sure.
D: Thanks for tuning in. We will be back at the beginning of December with another episode. Really excited about that. A couple of things before we head out. Remember to vote. First of all, please vote. It's important, you will have, I think, literally one day to do it by the time this podcast comes out. So please, please, please, if you haven't voted, vote and, y'know, be nice to people. Wear a mask, be a good person. Thanks for tuning in. I will see you next month with another episode of Out Of Phase.
Out of Phase Episode 12 : Boning
Out of Phase Episode 12 : Boning
Out of Phase Episode 12: Boning
D=Drew
A=Alex
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D: Fantastic. We're recording a podcast!
A: Finally, After an hour of trouble of troubleshooting
D: , after literally an hour of trying to figure out how to record a podcast.
A: Bull music.
D: Yeah, well, that's that's ribs.
A: Anyhoo
D: Pepsi. I didn't think about the end of this sentence when I started this…. amorphous silicon detectors With cesium gadolinium scintillaters? (?????????) That's ribs.
A: Yeah, sure.
D: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Out of Phase presented by Portland State Professional Sound. We're back with another episode of our now monthly series. That is a completely different show than when we started. We are talking about music history now instead of just kind of various music topics, but- Returning back to some old material, I guess my guest this week is, again, my good friend and former PSPS employee, Aleksei Garnick. Hi, Alex.
Alex: Hi Drew, what's up? How's it going?
Drew: Well, I'm currently recording a podcast. I don't know about you.
Alex: Oh, I was actually working in my machine shop, but now I am also now recording a podcast, now that I think about it.
Drew: Oh, wow. Yeah, it's kind of weird how that works out.
Alex: I know, right? Things are changing.
Drew: And all right, so last last month, our episode was very Halloween themed, and this month our episode is not at all a Thanksgiving theme. So we're really hitting the theming like very well so far.
Alex: It's a great start.
Drew: I suppose we're recording this on the twenty fourth, so recording this a week of Thanksgiving of American Thanksgiving, I should say. And- as if we have a big Canadian audience, and this won't come out until like the beginning of December. So it's good that it's not a Thanksgiving episode. However, what this episode is, is something that I think is actually pretty cool, so if you don't know Alex- Alex was born in Moscow and grew up there and has lived in the United States for a number of years now. But we're going to talk about... actually, Alex, what are we going to talk about?
Alex: We're going to talk about what me and you have been calling the bone music.
Drew: The bone records, which is just not what it's called.
Alex: It’s not what it's called. Let me just be completely clear. It's not ???. OK, we're talking about completely different music.
We're going to talk about
Drew: this song is called Pony. But, yes, it's not bron
It doesn't matter. Yes. Pony, sorry. Anyway. My bad
Was that the joke you were referring to?
Alex. Yes. Anyhoo. Yeah. We're going to be talking about bone records or rehab records, also commonly known as the ribs, and that is the records that were made using X-ray photos in the Soviet Union in the 1950s.
Drew: Yeah, I think this is this is something that you and I have wanted to talk about for- for a long time, because I know it's something that I've always thought is really cool and also something that you've told me about like several times. And it didn't fit into our show before, but it definitely fits into the show now, so I really wanted to start off the show, Alex, by having you tell me… kind of like what your experiences with these like, why do you know
about them? Is it something about- like is it something that is just broadly known in Russia or something like that?
Alex: Yeah, sure. So, yes, it is a pretty well-known mode of listening to music in Russia, even among current youth, I would even say- well, I mean by youth: Twenty six year olds like myself. I'll explain that a little bit. So the way I know about the ribs is due to a movie that came out in 2008. It's a Russian musical called Stilyagi or translated to English “hipsters.” And it’s a musical about a subculture in the nineteen fifties where people were really interested in Western culture and they were actively engaged in copying the style, like the actually- the whole, the whole term Stilyagi... It comes from jazz players, because the term in that means to copy the other’s playing style. So Stilyagi are effectively the people who are copying Western culture.
D: Interesting. So it's a Western copycat, kinda sense-.
A: Western copycat. Yeah.
D: That's cool.
A: But that movie was really popular. Yeah, the movie was really popular and it became really popular with the youth, like in 2008 myself growing up. I was, I think, in 9th or 8th grade and everybody was really enamored with it. All of our high schoolers were really into the style. They started dressing up like Stilyagi and walking around wearing old clothes, walking around with like, you know, with suitcases that were like from the 1960s and 70s because they really like the style. So it became really popular for a short period, again. And that's how I know about it.
D: That's cool. I know about it just from, you know, one it being one of those little tidbits of information about the Soviet Union that you learn about in whatever. I mean, I also come from a family... my dad specifically talks a lot about music history and stuff like that. I don't know if this is something that he told me about, but this is always the kind of stuff that I'm interested in.
So the first thing we're going to jump into is going to talk about what they actually were. What are these bone records? What are ribs? So, like Alex mentioned, they are records that were printed on discarded X-ray plates, so not vinyl in the way that a traditional record would be, but they are printed on an X-ray plate, which this is this is my favorite part of doing research for this episode- I tried to look up what an X-ray plate was made out of. And apparently they are made out of... It is- I'm going to- this is going to be totally wrong It is a combination of amorphous silicon detectors with cesium or gadolinium sintulators, which apparently they
convert little x-rays into light, which allow them to be seen on this media. So it's not it's not final, which is kind of important in, you know, the nature of these things. They are pretty thin compared to a sheet of vinyl that you would use for like, printing a record on. But I would imagine they're probably like sort of a similar thickness to like, a sheet of vinyl. If anyone's ever like experienced, like- what sheet vinyl is- it's pretty thin. It's like linoleum. Anyway… So basically, these people, this underground culture of people would go to hospitals and either find these X-ray plates in... like the dumpster or would buy them directly from the hospital for like super cheap, like a rubell or something like that, which I have absolutely no concept of A, how much is much trouble is in American dollars today and B, how much it was in the 1940s and 50s, So...
A: Well, I'll put it this way. Just to give you some perspective, a ruple- it was much like American dollars and cents. The ruble was like the dollar and Russian version of cent was kopeyka, and yes, 100 kopeyka is one ruble. And so I would say that probably in terms of value, they were relatively similar in the 50s. So dollar would be a lot and a few cents could buy you nice, well, not nice- important things. But one important thing is that actually the the hospitals
and public hospitals, I would guess they were really happy to get rid of the just the sheer number of x-rays that they had because otherwise they had to keep them forever. And yes, so the hospital workers, they were just- sometimes they would just give them away without even buying them, because just laying on the shelf and not doing anything, taking up space.
D: Yeah. One of the things that I find interesting about this, this choice of material, other than it being a really iconic look, if you've never seen these things before, look up bone records or ribs records because they're they look like a record, but they're basically translucent with an x-ray on them, like, it's exactly what you would think it looks like. But it is quite interesting to look at. But the the choice and material basically came from once records started becoming printed in mass quantities, vinyl became the choice because it was cheap and it held the actual print for
quite a while. But vinyl is not super readily available to someone who's trying to make underground records at the time. So they tried to make things on like- wax and film. But that isn't- those don't hold nearly as well as an x-ray plate does. And so they started to be used because they were more dense and they were thicker and they would actually hold the print for longer. And to be fair, they wouldn't hold the print for a long time. They would- you would only be able to listen to a bone record about five times unless it was a better one. And then it was just gone, like, it was just too messed up.
A: Yeah. Then the blade itself, it's rather soft. So it's understandable that the needle of the record player would cut through it and destroy the recording itself, which is why many of the bone records, they have been discarded after a few uses. What's most important to know is that bone records in terms of quality, the ribs, they’re horrible. The audio quality was horrible. It was full of noise. And in many cases, the record length was limited to like three and a half minutes.
So that's all you get for your hard earned money. And I don't know if you found that in your research, but sometimes people would buy ribs and instead of music, they would find recorded insults to the listeners, scolding them for wanting to hear foreign artists.
D: I'm going to get to that because I think that's a super interesting part of this story. So, one of the reasons why the quality was so terrible is because of the way they were made. So first of all, they would basically take a rectangular X-ray plate and they would cut it into a circle that was, you know, the size of a record. They would then take a cigarette to burn the hole in the center because it's hard to cut the center of something. And a cigarette is about the size of the spindle on a record player. And then they would use basically modified phonographs. So like all older style recording and record playing equipment, they would use a modified phonograph to record versions of this song onto the actual record, so it's completely janky equipment, which is,
not only is it janky equipment, they're literally using cigarettes to create the records. And it's also on a medium that is not designed to hold this kind of a print. So that's part of the reason these
things were so terrible, but also incredibly cheap, right? So they they come out of this like really underground culture in which music was- American music very specifically- was being disseminated through the Soviet public, and they were done on the cheap because they could be done on the cheap and you could buy them, listen to him a couple of times and then they would be gone. So, Alex, you were the one who did a little bit more of the research on the actual culture surrounding them. So, like, what- who was this that was doing these things? Like why were these groups creating these records?
A: Sure, of course. Well, think about what do you imagine when you hear the words Soviet Union during Stalin's rule, incredibly censored-
D: Bad.
A: Bad. Yeah, very enforced. So just in terms of availability of music as a medium, there was not a lot available. And so people, and I'm not talking just to Stilyagi and different subcultures, I'm talking about regular Soviet people, which, by the way, if you didn't know- not everyone was with Stalin! Right? Not every Russian citizen-
D: I would even make the argument that a lot of people didn't like him.
A: Yeah. He was not a very liked guy by many people. Let's put it this way. And so people will
just go out and try to source ribs. What would happen basically- is that this is not something you could just go to a store and buy. You had to go to like, a flea market, and seek it that way. And so, yeah, the music was recorded on those because again, general availability, and not a lot was there. And people, they bought it because number one, you just could not get foreign music legally in Russia. It was not available. And getting back to the question of quality, they didn't really mind it because there wasn't a lot in stock.
D: Yeah. If I'm not mistaken, the only music that was really printed in the Soviet Union was done by Melodia, which was the official state owned record label. And it was like, yeah, basically classical music, recordings of famous actors and fairy tales for kids. And that is all they were doing at the time. Later they were actually like- during the perestroika period, there was restructuring going on in the Soviet Union and it was starting to become more Western, they would actually start to print more popular music. But at the time, they were just printing basically classical music and kid stories and that's it. So that was the only kind of vinyl you could actually get in the Soviet Union at the time. And what's really cool is that, speaking of record labels, there was an underground record label for creating Ribs. The guy who actually made the handmade record maker in 1947. His name is Ruslan Boguslawski. He created on the ground label The Golden Dog. And The Golden Dog was responsible for making hundreds upon
hundreds of those records and distributing them as well. And so, yeah, that is a little cool tidbit about that. There's been a lot of development throughout the time of those record makers, even with the fact that later versions of it were able to record at 33 rpm, which would increase the quality and increase the duration of what you could put on the record from what I understand. But they decided to not do that. They decided, especially Boguslawski here, realized that there is no point in increasing the quality of a record on an X-ray plate. So they just stayed at 78 R.P.M., which was the standard of recording those at the time. And it also was just faster and easier to
produce and distribute rather than risking making longer records and actually getting caught.
D: Right. So one of the really important parts of this story that you touched on is the censorship in the Soviet Union, and if you don't know anything about history and just know that like, oh, there was the Cold War and the Soviet Union was the bad guys, the Soviet Union was very, very, very locked down in terms of speech, broadly speaking, and that really extended to musical censorship. So, basically, after World War Two started, Stalin was like, no, we're not going to have any American influence in the USSR, we don't need that. That's not good. So it started with jazz music and massive American artists like this article that I've been reading mentions John Coltrane and Thelonious Monk, and it says they were never heard by Soviet ears, which is interesting as someone who knows who those people are, didn't live at the time but has heard them, and eventually that transitioned to rock and roll. And this, I've been reading a lot of this stuff from what is called the Dead Media Archive, which is part of NY U.S. Department of Media, Culture and Communication. They have a really cool article on this. This says that once
jazz music returned to rock, apparently Bill Haley's 1954 hit Rock Around the Clock, which if you're not familiar, is the one that's like rock, around, the clock, tonight- we're going to rock, rock, rock- that one. It's a very popular song from the 50s. It was apparently deemed a threat to civilization by the government of the USSR, which is fucking hysterical because it's a stupid pop song. Basically, once the Soviet government found out about this thing that was going on, they were like, this is illegal, we're going to crack down on this. One of the ways that they did that was something that Alex mentioned earlier, which was they would- they attempted to flood the market of these bone records with terrible bone records, so that people would stop buying
them. And one of the ways that they would do that, is that sometimes you would get a record and you would play it, and you would think it would be music. But what it actually was, was- this is the example that this article gives- It would just have like an interruption, like someone recorded over what was already there. And it would say something like, you like rock and roll? Fuck you, anti Soviet slime.
(laughter)
So the Soviet government was in the business of making bone records that would basically nag you for listening to Rock, which I think is funny. It's really sad that that was the situation. But the fact that the government was so angry about this thing and angry about its citizens wanting to do what they wanted to do instead of not that, it's really quite interesting. On the sad part of it,
according to this article from NYU, there were apparently about ten individuals who were suspected of distributing bone records and were sent to the gulags, which were labor camps. So it's not really a funny story in that sense, but it really shows how much the Soviet government really, really, really did not want Western culture infiltrating the Soviet Union.
A: Yeah, a lot of people were arrested just getting caught with actual records because it's like how do you create a bone record? You need to bring a blueprint. You need to bring an actual vinyl with the rock music or jazz or blues or boogie woogie or what have you into The Soviet Union. (Drew laughs) No, boogie woogie was actually one of the biggest, favorite styles of the subculture movement.
D: That's interesting.
A: Yeah, but so people who would go to America for, I don't know, political reasons or some other reasons, they would actually bring back, you know, licensed records to the Soviet Union and then they would sell them to the manufacturers to distribute music across the Soviet Union. So getting caught with those was highly illegal and many people were arrested.
D: Do you know if it was common for Americans coming to the Soviet Union to bring records with them? I know that that was something like you and I talked about that phenomenon with jeans, which were like not a thing in the USSR. So Americans would bring a bunch of
jeans and sell them to people there.
A: Yeah, I would put it this way, historically, the way that this whole thing actually started was not with foreigners coming into the USSR to bring music.
It started with the end of World War Two because soldiers started coming back to Russia with trophies such as Western media, Western records, which is why I actually still argue they did not wear the style of clothing that was popular in the United States at the same time. Right? They were wearing outdated costumes. They would wear zoot suits. They would wear very, very colorful jackets and shirts and have very 1940s and early 1950s hairstyles.
D: Like deep into the 60s and 70s? Well, I would not say probably I would probably say 60s
and 70s as well, but definitely 1950s was like a big boom of this culture. Right? And, yeah, the the Stilyagi movement, they were very cynical, they did not like the government, they didn't want to adhere to any cultural norms. And they were despised and made a laughing stock of the party wherever there was an opportunity to do so. They what would be a common occurrence, even on Russian streets, is that Stilyagis would be followed by the common people, followed with intent to hunt them down and ruin their clothes or, for example, forcibly cut their hair in public.
D: Jesus.
A: Yes, there was a lot of there's a lot of media making a laughing stock of the Stilyagi movement, they would they would paint them as monkeys who like, you know-
what is the word- like people who have devolved into monkeys and are now terrorising the culture of the Soviet Union. There were a lot of poems written about how terrible it is that there are Stilyagis everywhere. Yeah, they were not very, very liked.
D: So bone records like vinyl, more or less disappeared eventually. I mean, vinyl is still really popular today. And especially if, like, you know, Alex and I know both own record players and have fair amount of records. In a place like Portland, it is still thriving in a way. But broadly speaking, you're not going to come home and you're like, oh, I want to listen to some music. I'm going to put on a record. You're probably going to pull up Spotify or something like that. So more or less in the mid 1970s, vinyl died and so did bone records in that format. They were really replaced by Tape-recording in the way that vinyl was replaced by Tape-recording, because it's a lot easier to re make a tape- like it's a lot easier compared to getting a getting an X-ray plate, cutting an X-ray plate, burning a hole in it and using some really, really jank equipment to record something onto it. It's a lot easier to have a tape recording of David Bowie, for example, and then take another tape recorder and just record it. It's just a lot simpler and it's a lot better quality. So it really took over that way. And then, you know, like I mentioned before, the perestroika area or the restructuring of the USSR into a more Western-ish country kind of loosened the rules on music censorship, so you could you could more readily access Western music in the USSR after that point. So this underground culture became much less of a thing. But one of the things in recording this, that I've realized, is that this idea really lives on in other oppressive countries. I don't know if any of you know about this, who are listening, but there is an entire project that takes USB drives or flash drives, they just take them from donors who just don't need their flash drive anymore and they wipe them clean and they put Western media, Western news and movies and TV shows on them. And they basically just chuck them into North Korea or airdrop them into North Korea so that the people there know that there is a world outside of the horrible, horrible way that they're living. This idea of underground media, using it to “liberate” the minds of a group is not new. And it still exists very much today.
A: Of course, with the punk movement, with the anarchist movement just- all around the world, it is still being supported.
D: So what is the lasting effect of this in Russia? Alex, what do people think about this? What is this effect now?
A: Well, of course, today, most of the people who live to despise ribs, they are probably not alive or they are still alive, I would actually like to meet them and ask their opinion because they’ve seen some stuff, Drew. They've seen some stuff.
D: Yes, living through the Soviet Union is definitely seeing some stuff.
A:Yes. But of course, right now, the ribs, they're pretty much revered as a big influence for Russia to just, you know, to lift their Iron Curtain and everything, because because that's how people got- people began getting used to shifting their mindset to accept Western genres and values. And we can we can see that even like, in terms of government, after Stalin passed away, we could see the general secretaries of the Soviet Union, just- which is, by the way, if you don't know, general secretaries are basically like president, but general secretaries of Soviet Union engaging in diplomacy and even product promotion like Nikita Khrushchev, who was one of the general secretaries of the Soviet Union, is famous for drinking Pepsi with the American president, I believe. I believe that was the picture. But, yeah, I remember that basically there was there was a conversation between Khrushchev and it wasn't it was either one of the American presidents or one of the Pepsi CEOs at the time where they started to manufacture Pepsi in Russia. And Khrushchev was asked like, which kind of Pepsi is better? Soviet made or American made? “Of course, the Soviet-made is better”. Yes. The Soviet made Pepsi. Yes. And then
if you were really interested about this, you can always research on the fact that thanks to the collaboration between Pepsi and the Soviet Union, Pepsi had become, I think, what it was, the 10th largest military in the world. There's an actual article about this.
D: Sorry, did you just say Pepsi became the 10th largest military in the world?
A: Either 10th, or- one of the largest ones, because-
D: I’m not confused about the ranking, Alex, I think you misunderstood my question. You just said Pepsi became a military.
A: A military force, yes, because of the Russian military selling them, uh... Pepsi started buying Russian military tech in exchange for production in Russia. (laughs)
D: That’s insane, why did Pepsi need military technology?
A: I think that's- I think that's a conversation for a different podcast, but they didn't need it. They did not need it. That's the thing.
D: Yeah have you heard of the British East India Company?
A: Yes, exactly. They didn't- they did not need it. They were just buying it because that's one of the ways they could establish a valuable exchange between the two parties. Pepsi did not try to become a military force. They just accidentally became one.
D: Whoops, I have an army now… Anyway, back to what we're talking about. I think thisis a super interesting story because it is endemic of basically what happened to the Soviet Union, which is the Soviet Union was worn down by people who wanted to not be living in the Soviet Union as it was. Like, part of the reason the Soviet Union collapsed is that everyone, not everyone, but like there was significant pushback against the government there. And obviously there were external forces like, I don't know, the Cold War, but- the Soviet Union was worn down by people like this, creating records on X-ray plates because: They didn't want to live in a place where they couldn't listen to music that they liked.
A:Yeah.
D: Music is powerful,
A: We're getting emotional.
D: But I mean, it is- like, the wants to be able to express yourself through listening to music is strong. Obviously, people went to lengths- at threat of going to fucking labor camps- were just
like making records on X-ray plates because they couldn't do that anywhere. They couldn't get anywhere else. It's a really cool story. I think that- I just- I really enjoy knowing that there is always a way that people are going to find a way to listen to music, because it's important to people.
A: Yeah, and just as a piece of history, if you ever have the opportunity to be on the lookout for museums, just like for- museum showcases of ribs, because some of them were really pretty. Like people, people who were making them, they started like, you know, they started putting together different shapes to make images on the plate to make it look better, because right now, of course, due to the chemical compound just deteriorating, you cannot really play them back.
But you can look at them, and a lot of them were rather pretty.
D: Yeah, well, that's that's ribs, that's bone records, their music history. They are a really cool piece of political history and like the history of the Soviet Union, and they kind of live on in various forms today, in using music and media to subvert authoritarian regimes. So thank you, Alex, for coming on the show. It's been really great having you.
A: Thank you, Drew. It was really nice being back, even though the format is a little different-
D: The format is different.
A: But I also do like music history.
D: I also like music history, which is why we're doing this. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Out of Phase, presented by Portland State Professional Sound. We will probably not have a podcast coming out in the next month, as we are once again college students, and we will be all on winter break. But once our term resumes at the start of the New Year, we will resume this podcast. We will actually be switching to a twice a month format. So a biweekly format. And hopefully we will be
able to actually put out a little bit more content in kind of a different form from then. So expect more stuff from us, expect more stuff from this show, expect more stuff from music history in general and have a good holiday season. Thanks for listening.
A: Enjoy! Have fun!
(Laughter)
D: Pepsi had a large military. It had a large military presence. It was the 10th largest military force in the world!
(sound bites, outro)
Out of Phase Episode 13 : Woodstock
Out of Phase Episode 13 : Woodstock
Out of Phase Episode 13 Transcript
D: Drew
S: Storm
D: I've been playing a lot of Battlefront recently, and I played Bosk a lot, you know, the big lizard bounty hunter and he sounds like he has a fucking mega, like typhus. Every time he speaks, he's like I’m bOsK. It's so great. I love Bosk. But he just is like this nasty, nasty lizard man. And I relate to that.
[Music stops.]
D: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Out Phase presented by Portland State Professional Sound. I'm, as always, your host, Drew Häfner, and I have today- someone who is becoming the co-host, because he's here again! Everyone, it's Storm.
S: Hey. I was going to say, like, you're always Drew, but I’m- sometimes Storm, sometimes I…. don't know who I am, I guess.
D: Sometimes I become someone else. But anyway, today we're talking about the Woodstock Festival at Storm’s request. So why are we talking about that, Storm? Like, where's your interest in that?
S: I kind of just thought it'd be a good idea, because, I mean, it's pretty relevant to music. And I've been thinking, as I'm sure a lot of other people have: The longer that we're under, you know, pandemic life, the more I'm thinking about how much I miss concerts, and live events and stuff, so…
D: The more that- sitting in the rain, with like several hundred thousand people not being able to hear the music sounds actually like a good time.
S: Yeah, because at least it'd be something other than just the inside of my house.
D: Yeah. The cinder block room that I've been stuck in.
S: Oh yeah, it is cinder blocks.
D: Yeah. So we're talking about Woodstock. We're talking about its history, and its culture, and its impact, and stuff like that. So if you haven't heard of Woodstock, which I'd be surprised if you hadn't just based on, you know, the demographic of this podcast, it was a music festival, a three day music festival that took place in the summer of 1969. So during, you know, the hippie movement and the counterculture movement, all of that kind of stuff- that's kind of become this medinem for the hippie movement- like we see it, you know, and its impact. And I'm sure we'll get to this, but- we see the use of the term Woodstock to be, you know, this catch-all for the hippie movement. Like the term “Woodstock child” or “Woodstock generation” is pretty common to refer to that kind of group of people. So it's this big, iconic thing, more so than basically any of the other music festivals that were really similar at the time. So it, like I said, took place in the summer of 1969, specifically August 15th through the 18th. It was supposed to be in the actual Woodstock, New York area. And it sort of was: It ended up being held in Bethel, New York, which is about 40 miles from Woodstock, but, you know, relatively in the area. And it was sort of held there partially because a lot of people- like it was part of that kind of counterculture scene, like Bob Dylan was famous for living there, or having a home there.
S: I guess they they really wanted him to come play-
D: And he didn't, which is funny.
S: Yeah, I was seeing some mention and that part of the reason they put it where they did or where they ended up was so that- they hoped that he would be like, “Well, I'm only like an hour away and I guess I might as well go, right?”
D: The band did end up playing, though, which had close relation to Bob Dylan. It was held on a dairy farm in Bethel, which I think is funny for some reason that it was just- I mean, like, where else are you going to have, like, this massive, massive festival other than on, like, massive property, which in, you know, rural New York is farmland. So it was held primarily on this guy whose name is Max Yasker’s Farm. It was sort of on other people's property, and people weren't too happy about that, but he seemed pretty on board with it being there. And we'll get more to how it ended up there in a little bit. But the way it came about was basically because of four key figures, for- like, entrepreneurs, music scene, concert planner, you know, entrepreneurs in the music scene. So Joel Roseman and John Roberts, two New York entrepreneurs, were building Media Sound, which was a studio in Manhattan. And while they were doing that, 2 other people named Michael Lang and Artie Kornfeld approached them and asked them if they would help build a studio, basically in Woodstock, in the in the area near Woodstock- to capitalize on the amount of people that knew it as a part of the music scene in New York. Instead, Rosemond and Roberts counterproposed, “No, we're not going to help you build a studio, so let's put on a big festival- like a concert, instead,” and they kind of rolled with it from there. They had some trouble finding acts for the festival to begin with because, you know, it's kind of hard to go, we're going to have this big festival if you don't have any- like, if you're a massive band and no one else that you recognize is on the roster, why would you join? But, Creedence Clearwater Revival, a name that I'm so happy I said correctly the first time. I find the words Creedence Clearwater Revival really difficult to say in quick succession. I don't know, I almost always say Creedence Crearwater Revival.
S: Creedence Career Otter.
D: Creedence Career Otter Rerival.
S: I think it's pretty easy. Creedence Clearwater Revival.
D: Well, you forget that I'm an idiot and don't know how to speak the English language. So, Creedence Clearwater Revival was kind of the first big act that jumped on. And after that, it was pretty easy, it seems, to find people because Creedence Clearwater Revival was and remains to be, a massive specter in the industry. But they also they ended up landing, just in case you aren't aware, acts like Santana, the Grateful Dead, Janis Joplin, Sly and the Family Stone, a personal favorite of mine, The Who, Jefferson Airplane, the band Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, which is just Crosby, Stills and Nash, but with Neil Young and also another personal favorite, Jimi Hendrix.
S: Who could forget.
D: Yeah, who could forget that- he also apparently only played to a crowd of about 30,000 people, which is still a lot of people, but when you consider that there was like 500,000 people there and he was like the last act to play on the last day. So people kind of stayed until they saw him play a little bit and then left. So he played to a considerably smaller crowd. But it's definitely one of, if not the most iconic performance from that concert.
S: I didn't realize that there were so few. I knew that it was towards the end. It was like in the wee hours of the early morning hours of Monday, technically. So it was probably after midnight, but before sunrise, I think. I don't know.
D:Yeah, late. Late that evening. Slightly in the morning.
S: Yeah. So I didn't know that he played to such a small crowd, but I think definitely it's one of the- to me it's the most iconic performance. There’s like Jefferson Airplane’s performance and some other ones that are really big too.
D: Yeah. I always whenever I think about Woodstock I think about the national anthem that Jimi Hendrix played. I think that that's not a unique experience, I feel like to a lot of people, that's the standout thing they think of when they think of Woodstock.
S: I think it's the best performance of the anthem ever.
D: It is very good. But yeah, large, large groups. One of the things that's really interesting about Woodstock to me, too, is that, even though it was August- which I mean, I'm not from New York, I don't really know what the weather's like there at all. But it was garbage weather- just terrible, like pouring rain, and there had been a rain recently, so it was muddy and gross- like it was not... great. And because there was all of this rain and thunderstorms, certain acts got delayed. So, so famously, Creedence Clearwater Revival didn't play until like 3:00 in the morning. Like, that's when they started their set. And they're like, if you look at this, if you hear, I'll pull it out because I have it up here. But if you look at the roster of, like, people who played, there are some people who started- The Grateful Dead started playing like 10:30 p.m. and played till midnight. Creedence Clearwater Revival on- Oh, I guess I was wrong about that. But they played until 1:20 in the morning. Sly and the Family Stone is the one that I was thinking of- they started playing at 3:30 in the morning.
S: Wow.
D: And played until four twenty in the morning.
S: Prime time, huh?
D: Here's the one that's wild: The Who, one of the biggest bands of the time, massive success, played at 5 a.m.
S: Damn.
D:Can you imagine seeing The Who playing at 5:00 in the morning?
S: You see, the only thing I'm seeing at 5:00 in the morning is my computer screen or the back of my eyelids. No, it'd be pretty cool, but weird.
D: It's really, really strange. And the notes on this Wikipedia page say things like, oh, this was delayed and like this was moved up for this and all this kind of stuff. Basically, this entire festival, from a logistics standpoint, seems like it was a complete nightmare.
S: The Who was one of the biggest acts at the time, right? Or did they become bigger after?
D: I'm not exactly sure, but in the late 60s, they were well known. Like they were a headliner at Woodstock.
S: Yeah, that's what I figured. It's interesting that they ended up getting pushed back to 5:00 AM because I feel like modern- In modern day, they would just cut opening acts or something just to make sure that they meet their time.
D: Yeah, I'm not sure, I don't have an exact answer on that. But it also could just be like- I don't know, the attitude surrounding the planning and execution of this festival seems to be the most like, “I don't know, fuck it, whatever.” It's very surprising because we both work in- obviously working smaller concerts than this, but like, I've never been like, “Oh, yeah, they can just go on in an hour and a half.” No, dude, we've got like a schedule to stick to and we got to stick to it.
S: Yeah, I guess. I mean, if you're intending to sit somewhere as an audience member for three days, and just- I guess you probably- I wouldn't care, really, if a band got messed up time, I'd be like, OK, I guess I'm not sleeping until tomorrow.
D: Right. Speaking of all this rain and this muddy terrain and horrible conditions, the actual venue itself was kind of on rocky ground throughout the planning process. They didn't really nail it down until pretty late in the process for, like, planning the event. So it was supposed to originally be in the town of Wallkill, New York, which is a little bit closer to Woodstock, if I'm not mistaken. But the town board was like, no, you're not doing that. They basically passed a resolution that was like- at the time, the event planners thought that there would only be about 50,000 people that showed up, which is still an immense amount of people. But yeah, the town board of Wallkill was like, no, we are passing this resolution that says you need a permit for more than 5,000 people. And they were also the authority that granted the permit. So they were like, we're not granting you a permit. Basically made a rule and then used it to not allow people to go.
S: Fun
D: By the time they moved it to Bethel, they didn't have time to build fences around the venue or ticket booths. So it just kind of became a free concert. They were like, we're not going to be able to stop people from getting in, so we might as well make it free. Because people had bought tickets for it, and they were expensive. They were when adjusted for inflation, they were like one hundred and thirty to one hundred and seventy bucks. So expensive tickets, at pretty good price for a three day concert featuring massive artists like this, but still that's not… It was 18 in advance, twenty four at the gate, which translates to- in money adjusted for inflation, it was one hundred and thirty in advance and one hundred and seventy at the gate.
S: Shit, I would pay that for- that’s reasonable for a three day festival here! EDC, a one day ticket was upwards of three hundred bucks a few years ago.
D: So it's, it's not that one hundred and thirty dollars is a good seat at a one fucking headliner show in the modern times. Like, like I've paid ninety dollars for nosebleeds, you know, to see one or two bands,
S: Yeah, most of the concerts I go to are smaller, so, I love that aspect that I get to see almost all my favorite bands, for sometimes like 20 bucks a ticket. I've been to like 15 dollar shows where they just ended up hanging out with the band afterwards, which is sick. But it wasn't even only local bands. These are bands from other countries. It's just that they're part of a demographic, that’s like part of a- (gets cut off)
D: Yeah, I feel like there's this weird disparity between moderately successful artists and incredibly successful artists-
S: There’s such a huge gap.
D: Because there's such- I paid like 100 bucks to see Arctic Monkeys and it was like a shitty ticket, it was not a good seat. And I paid like twenty dollars to see a band called Joy Wave that I really like. And they're not unsuccessful, but they're not- I mean they're not as big as Arctic Monkeys. But I paid fifteen dollars to see... bands that I know are making a significant living off of it.
S: Yeah. That's what I mean. But like I know they're making a living off their music. It's just interesting that like you know, that somehow, despite their success, I'm still only paying pennies for a ticket.
D: Like there are bands that if they were like, oh, we're going to charge 40, 50 bucks, I'd be like, yeah, no, I'd pay for that. But that seems reasonable. I wouldn't pay 150 dollars to come see you at the Roseland in this, like, small venue.
S: There's a few times I've been tempted to buy VIP tickets when they're offered. And those are more like the one hundred and fifty, one hundred ninety. One of those in particular for a band included a hang out session, with the band, that was included in that ticket price, where you would just play Super Smash Bros with them before the set because like- they're huge. We did a review for them over the summer at my request, one of their albums. But yeah. I was so tempted, but I decided not to- I didn't want to just be weird, you know, I didn't want to end up being weird and then have it be a bunch of money to just be awkward.
D: Right. So this show is basically like this: like it has this like crazy historical significance, and then if you actually look into it literally at all, it's this mess- like a complete mess- completely unsanitary, disgusting, muddy logistical nightmare- That people paid for, and that ended up being free anyway.
S: Yeah, I was reading that, and maybe some if you're about to explain this, but like, because of the lack of oversight or planning based on how it worked out, or things didn't work out, they didn't have anything like food or drinks, so Max was supplying free water from his own, his own property as well or something. And then there were nice people- There were people that were pissed off, but there were people that were accepting of it and surrounding communities that were bringing food and blankets and stuff and just sharing them with people for free, which is great.
D: Yeah, the town of Bethel was not really psyched about it broadly, especially like- the town, whatever governing body. But in recent years, they've leaned into it a little bit more in the last couple of decades they've been like, yeah, this is where Woodstock was instead of- not. Because, I mean, the the concern for them after the festival, obviously, other than the immediate aftermath of it, was the fact that people would then just kind of like come back and there would be like thousands of people that would just fuckin chill in this farmer's backyard.
S: Yeah, I could see that.
D: Yeah, I mean, it's now become like a big tourist thing and it's like this world, it's like a heritage site. Like, basically, they make money off that.
S: Yeah. I was going to say, they leaned into it once they realized, wait, we can just profit off of this.
D: Yeah, exactly.
S: And that sounds bad, but it doesn't- I guess it depends. If it's just lining somebody's pockets, if they're using the profits and supporting the town and like, using it for public works and stuff. Eh, that’s a good use
D: My last thing about the history of this, because it's such a weird story, is something that I learned in doing this, that I had no idea was the case, apparently: it was a very peaceful festival, which with 500,000 people is remarkably impressive.
S: I mean, sadly almost unimaginable, especially by today's standards.
D: Yeah, I mean, I've been to fucking concerts with 300 people where someone gets punched. Yeah. So anyway, I mean, maybe kind of a sign of the times: peace and love, whatever. But according to Wikipedia, there were two fatalities that are recorded from Woodstock, one from insulin usage. OK, I don't know if that's deliberate insulin usage or like recreational.
S: (laughs) Recreational insulin usage.
D: I don't know. I would assume not, but it’s Woodstock!
S: Is that a thing?
D: I don't- there's no way that- clearly neither one of us are diabetic.
S: I mean, I have a good friend that is. But I don't even think- I wouldn't ask him either. I don't imagine he would just know, off the top of his head, “Yeah, plenty of people just ask me for my insulin.” That’s weird.
D: And then, the other fatality was- This is horrible, and maybe tragedy plus time equals comedy a little bit with this, but it’s still pretty bad. The other fatality was caused by a tractor which ran over someone that was sleeping in a hayfield.
S: Oh, that sucks.
D: Pretty fucking gnarly. There also were apparently two births at the event, one in a car caught in traffic and another in a hospital after someone had to be airlifted out of the festival, and- this is the wildest part: There were four miscarriages.
S: Four miscarriages.
D: I don't understand how all of that happened in three days. I guess like the law of large numbers, statistically speaking, it makes sense. But that’s crazy.
S: Well, yeah, if you have five hundred thousand people or whatever, then-
D: Yeah, if there's quite literally half a million people, then, yeah. Anyways, you look confused.
S: I'm just trying to- I don't know and I don't want to look it up, because my keyboard will just make a unadulterated amount of noise. So I'm not going to, but- I think that there might be states that have less of a population than five hundred thousand currently.
D: I believe that.
S: Maybe not. Maybe I'm fudging them a bit. But there's definitely small cities. There's definitely small cities that have a population of less than that.
D: Well, let's think about this. Portland’s population is about 450,000 people in the Portland metro area. Oh, no, no, no, sorry, In Portland proper. Metro is about one point two million, I think, or one point five million. Yeah.... The least populous US state is Wyoming with about five hundred and seventy eight thousand people. OK, so ridiculous.
S: Almost the population of Wyoming. I'm sure at the time Wyoming's population was less than that.
D: Yeah, exactly. But larger than the population of Guam and the U.S. Virgin Islands and American Samoa and the Northern Mariana Islands combined. I imagine no one has any reference for the population of those three or four places because- I don't.
S: Interesting.
D: It's a lot of people when they originally expected 50,000, which is ridiculous. Yeah. It's the size of a middle sized city in the United States.
S: Yeah, just Onodera,
D: Too many people on a dairy farm just hanging out in Max's backyard. So, Storm, what is the cultural side of this?
S: Well, there's a lot of angles. Obviously, the fact that we're talking about right now and that probably, again, everybody who would listen has heard of it at least multiple times, shows how much of a significant event it was. At the time, you know, the promoters didn't envision this thing like you were talking about. They just wanted another concert. I had read that they were trying to use this concert and then take the profit from it to then build the studio that they wanted to do.
D: More or less, yeah.
S: Basically, you know, it was never intended to be this huge thing, and I think if you tried to make it that, it wouldn't have ended up working out anyway, because it seems like the more forced something is, the less relevant ends up being? When it comes to like, I don't know, stuff like that. But basically I've heard about it my whole life. But one angle that I was exploring through reading some other people's thoughts on it and some, you know, some history behind it as well. I hadn't thought about it in that- I think its largest cultural shift or- it was a catalyst where the mainstream popular culture- after Woodstock- shifted to be about the younger generations, as opposed to the parents of the generations that were the ones, you know, providing for them. Like, you know, if you look back to the 50s and stuff, the mainstream is more about the family unit and the older division. You know, it's like parental and there's nuclear families. That was a huge part. Maybe that's not pop culture, but I mean, pop culture as we know it now: Part of it is because of the way Woodstock affected the time, and it was a huge culmination of all these things that were going on, like you mentioned, you know, there's the war in Vietnam. There was, you know, the civil rights movement was just a few years past. There was all kinds of social unrest and and not just unrest, but good things too, there was this hippie generation. There was the make love, not war sentiment and the counterculture. But what Woodstock did is it took that counterculture and propelled it into the mainstream spotlight and gave it a platform with which to, like, show the world we are upset with these things and we don't think they're OK. And this is how we're going to talk about them. But it was part of what made it so special was it wasn't just a soapbox. It was about just being real, sort of, you know, and letting the things happen as they were. And so, you know, a lot of the acts were, you know- use their music as forms of protest. You know, like Bob Dylan is a pretty decent one. I mean, maybe not protest explicitly, but, you know, Bob Dylan's music definitely brings ideas that aren’t necessarily pleasant to everybody, but makes you know, there was a lot and then especially the biggest one we were talking about, like Jimi Hendrix's rendition of the banner. I mean, that was obviously- I mean, it was done beautifully. So it wasn't like he went out here and he just, you know, shit on the whole thing. Right. You know, but he definitely put a lot of angst and disappointment and emotion into-
D: That's not hyper patriotic.
S: Yeah. I mean, he emulated, you know, in the way that Hendrix does- One of the things that made him the most special was creating different sounds of the guitar. So he used his guitar and effects, like the whammy bar and stuff to emulate the sound of bombs dropping or the feeling of anxiety and tension and war and stuff. And that's something that actually I never realized until only about a year ago when I was in a theory class and my professor mentioned it and I was like, wow, I don't know why I never thought about that. I just thought it was cool, you know, that he's doing all this crazy stuff, but there was a real reason behind it. A lot of people- I mean, obviously, it's very well known for, you know, the the other hippie side of like just drugs and sex and rock and roll. But there's a lot of people out there, maybe even a majority, that that's not even the main takeaway. The main takeaway was just how they showed that as big a number of people as we were talking could show up and coexist peacefully for a weekend and take care of each other and show genuine, you know, love for each other, even though they didn't know each other and they may not even know each other as soon as the festival ends, you know, they might just totally go their separate ways. But, yeah, it really, really propelled the popular culture to be. helmed by the younger generations going forward, I mean, after that, you know, and they try to do similar things with other Woodstocks in the 70s and the 80s and the 90s.
D: I find that idea so funny. Yeah, because that seems like- I don't know a ton about them, but that seems so doomed to fail in a way, because the whole idea with Woodstock is that it was very organic, like I mean, you know, it was put on by music festival producers and stuff, but still it kind of snowballed into this massive cultural phenomenon.
S: Yeah, that's what I was trying to articulate, I guess earlier, is the fact that it was so organic is, I think the main reason why it was so- why its members- So like why it became such a big thing. You know, if it was not planned in the way that it was, you know, if they had said “Yeah, come here and like, absolve your differences and do all these things.” I'm not saying that that wouldn't work or that's a bad approach or anything, but it would have been special because it didn't just happen. This wasn't supposed to be this thing, but people showed up and that's how it ended up working out. So, you know, you have this environment that was created just through, you know, people's will to enjoy music together and show it as a form of protest, and also care about each other and talk about, you know- most of the younger generation, you know, because of the way pop culture was, they weren't listened to as much as they as they are now after Woodstock. Right? A lot of the music, like I said, was protest and was done by people. And a lot of the reason they were there was to kind of take a… vacation is not the right word, but- kind of soak in all the other horrible things that were going on in that time as well as the good things. I mean, one of the things that's a really, really cool example of how the whole event ended up being: as I was reading Max Yozgat, he was actually very conservative politically, and he was- at least I saw one- a source say that he was pro-war even, but he was not the type of person to judge others or oppose them because they thought differently than he did. So he allowed a tap on his farm, even though the main draw was this counterculture and this anti-war sentiment and this free love and and, you know, the Woodstock generation, all the things that those are. And the event took place on a farm who was pro-war and conservative and not even liberal. But he, again, you know, in the true spirit of Woodstock, he thought, well, there's no reason they can't have their fun and we can't just coexist. You know, they disagree from me but that doesn't make them bad people. And I think that was pretty cool too because I never knew that. I hardly knew anything about Max before this, but I'd heard the guy's name, I think, once or twice.
D: One of the things that I found really interesting about him, and this conflicts a little bit with what you're saying. So one of us is probably wrong, a little bit. I don't know. But there's this quote that I found from him that he- basically, when asked to talk about this and this experience, he said, “If we can join them, we can turn those adversities that are the problems of America today into a hope for a brighter and more peaceful future.” And regardless of what his political views are, I think that's a good sentiment, that he's like, hey, these people are caring and care about the future of the United States. Great.
S: Yeah, It's unfortunate that, well, this isn't a political podcast, but, yeah, I agree, I think that that- I think that's a really good way. You know, even if people disagree, if you want the same thing out of genuine goodness, it's a shame that so many people can't see that or won't see that and just refuse to work together, even if they have different approaches to the same goal, like, you know. But it's sad. But, yeah, I think that I thought that was pretty cool. But like I said, I didn't look at a million sources, so I can't say exactly to what extent that is. However, I do think that it's interesting how the focus from Woodstock or how it was a catalyst for focus to be put on younger generations as far as popular culture, like I was saying. Part of that, you know, was that they realized, at least some people realized that that could be, you know, monetized, basically. You know, I mean, everything's monetized now and especially as the driven thing. But I think it's interesting if you try to think about what makes festivals nowadays different from something like Woodstock, of course, like we were talking about Woodstock was special because of, you know, the way it worked out, despite how it wasn't planned to be that way, you know, so obviously, things aren't going to be the same. And like with the newer versions of Woodstock that have come out every so often, you know, they're quite literally not the same. I didn't even- I have heard about the original Woodstock, like I said, pretty much my whole life growing up around, you know, my mom, who was a hippie and her friends and stuff. But I didn't even realize I think I'd heard of Woodstock ‘99 once, but I forgot about it. The point is, I had heard so little of these other Woodstocks that I didn't even remember they existed until I was looking into it and thought, oh, yeah, I have heard that there were other ones. Why do I not know anything about them? Because they just weren't-
D: Because they were more manufactured.
S: Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, festivals are still really cool, obviously. I mean, I haven't personally been to a large festival. I don't think. Mainly ticket price.
D:Yeah.
S: And the thing about festivals, I think festivals are really cool because you also get- it's almost like a musical buffet in a sense. You know, you go there and you get you just have exposure to all these acts and stuff. And that's really cool, especially like, if you don't know them and then you like them. But a lot of times minor festivals too many of the headliners are, are bands that I'm just not a fan of or artists that I just, you know, I like maybe, but I don't like enough to spend three hundred dollars. And so, you know, but I've been tempted more than a few times to just go on one day and see, you know, just the Saturday show or something, because that's what I think the most.
D: That’s what I’ve done.
S: And that’s what most people do, right, is they go for a specific day because it's more cost effective, and it's also not- Yeah, you mentioned earlier- this is a complete sidetrack, but you mentioned earlier about how the traffic and as I was looking into things, I don't think I'd heard this in particular, but traffic got jammed up so bad outside of- like, on the way to Bethel that a lot of people just abandon their cars.
D: Which I can't imagine helps the situation, quite literally, at all.
S: No, obviously not. But I just think that was kind of interesting, because I imagine people being in a traffic jam and seeing other people just getting out, grabbing their tents and shit and walking in, because I would be like, should I do that?
D: Yes. Yeah. You would. You totally would.
S: Well, I love my car. Like in the modern world, I don't know if I would, but in the 1960s. Yeah. I would totally leave that shit in the road. What’s going to happen to me? There's going to be so many cars there, they're not going to be able to do anything. I mean, it's like you said, they couldn't police the place. I didn't even know that there was tickets initially because I hadn't looked into that aspect. But I knew that like five hundred thousand people showed up. There's no way- there's no chance most of them paid for it, you know.
D: Right. I know that they had considered- the New York governor considered dispatching the National Guard just because of the sheer amount of people. And one of the organizers was like, no, that's a bad idea.
S: Yeah. I mean, what kind of a message would that have sent?
D: Yeah, not great. It would be really on brand for the U.S. government, though. Oh, for sure. Apparently during the festival, though, people from a nearby Air Force base were on call to airlift people out if necessary. So, yeah, that I think is one of the things that is the biggest takeaway from this entire discussion is simply how massive this group of people was and also how not an issue, broadly speaking, you know... like I can't think of in my lifetime any massive gatherings like that that are just good. To be fair, in recent memory, most massive gatherings are protests which are very different from a concert. So it's maybe a little biased for me to say.
But like, the amount of like just... social cohesion necessary to keep a small city in check, a medium sized city even, like- it is baffling. It's quite impressive that the culture of peace was so ingrained into these people that they were just good hanging out.
S: Yeah. That's what I was just going to add to that. It starts with the people, the individuals themselves that are there and never would have happened that way if everybody was real ornery right from the get go or something. And, you know, some of them did have, like, you know, I mean, again, with all the problems there and Vietnam protests, you know, there was the like I said, civil rights was just a few years before that- the civil rights movement. So there are still significant things you know, like the Black Panther movement, like there's a lot of things. But everybody went there, went there from the standpoint or, I guess I can't speak for everyone, but-
D: Obviously it's hard to speak for five hundred thousand people.
S: Obviously the vast majority, based on the fact that there weren't any significant issues or violence or any of that crap, you know. They went there understanding that, you know, you kind of check that shit at the door, basically.
D: Check that shit at the door!
S: And I'm sure it's also easier, you know, when a lot of people are high on acid or marajuana or other drugs that tend to make you not violent.
D: This is true!
S: Maybe if you take 500,000 people and give them a bunch of PCP... I would never do that.
D: Yeah, give a bunch of people- just a bunch of angel dust, some ketamine.
S: That would be some violent shit. Well, it could be, I guess PCP doesn't have to make you do that. I've never done it, nor do I ever want to. I don't know anybody that has.
D: That’s a fair point.
S: I'm assuming there's people that do it. But I do know, like, in the worst case scenario, people who get high on PCP and then... excited delirium, I think is the actual term for this mental state they end up in where they kind of turn into zombies and just attack people and stuff. It’s nuts.
D: That was not what Woodstock was like.
S: Quite literally the opposite. It was the, you know, the people just being cool to each other, honestly. And then- it would be so cool, I think about that as one of the events, like if I could have a time machine and go back to specific points and just to like- just to be a bystander and see what was going on, I would obviously love to go, like, see Woodstock in person that and I'm sure almost anybody would be interested in music and or popular culture or some other thing. Right.
D: Yeah.
S: You know, but yeah, I think culturally, like I said, the biggest takeaway from it and the reason it's kind of persisted in history is that even if it's not talked about, it really took a lot of the power of social outcry to the younger generation and gave them a lot bigger voice and made people pay more attention to them or us. I guess technically now in this day and age, you know, that would be us.
D: Yes, we are technically young still. Well, that's Woodstock. I mean, broadly. Yeah.
S: Yeah, pretty good. General touch.
D: I think that's Woodstock. There's more specifics to be known. But I mean, basically, that's that's the real meat and potatoes of it. Well, thank you everyone for listening. Hopefully we'll be able to get these podcasts out more frequently. Thanks, Storm, for being here.
S: Thanks for having me.
D: It's good to talk to you again. I'm sure this won’t be the last time. Well, thank you, everybody for listening. This has been Out of Phase.
Out of Phase Episode 14 : Drew's Album Review - Complex by Montaigne
Out of Phase Episode 14 : Drew's Album Review - Complex by Montaigne
Out of Phase Episode 14 Transcript
D: Drew
A: Ashley
J: Johnny
D: It's so GOOD. Who uses the.. Who takes the word hyena.. Makes it into a, like, adjective and then is like, yeah, hyen-ic laughter? You've probably heard my hyen-ic laughter. Like I get “my cheeks are bright red” because the analogy is like “I'm a clown, I'm a clown,” the song is called “I am a Clown”, but she’s like “I am a bird.” I’m like “Why?! Why are you a bird?”
[Music stops.]
D: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Out of Phase, the podcast presented by Portland State Professional Sound. Guess what has changed in the format again? This show is like nebulous and fluid and will never have a specific purpose, ever. [Laughs] It's music related still, we're not talking about like, I don't know.. What do you think about cars? I'm still Drew. That's still me. I still exist. I'm hanging out. Here today I have two guests with me. First off, we've got Ash. Ashley say hi.
A: Hi.
D: Ash has been on the podcast.. this is your second time? We talked about covers last summer. You were on in the first iteration in the first season of the podcast.
A: Yeah, it's been a while.
D: It's been a minute.. yeah. And we also have Johnny. Hey, Johnny.
J: Hey.
D: Johnny is our.. uh.. he's been on with us. He hasn't been on the show before, but he's actually our new general manager. So Johnny's now my boss. [Laughter] Yeah. So I'm going to grill Johnny because Ash has been on the show before. Johnny, what kind of music are you into? What kind of styles do you listen to?
J: I listen to.. Well, I'm a percussionist, so a lot of the time I listen to music, I spend it playing on a marimba and stuff. So yeah. So like I'm playing a piece called Verono Porteño and it's this piece, it's kind of a tango, which is really fun. And then I've been listening to this album a lot recently.. and I always love some Herbie Hancock, its so good, and jazz and Kendrick Lamar, rap, hip hop.
D: Nice. What kind of stuff is.. like what brings you to like.. I mean, like, I know this, but like for the audience, why do you work here? Like what? What brings you into the audio engineering field as a musician?
J: Well, I mean, my love for music and just like where music is going.. it's being incorporated with a bunch more electronic stuff. And it it's really valuable to know more about that realm of music. And it's also just really interesting to me and like the possibilities that can come out of adding, you know, working in DAWs and whatnot. And just this kind of work, being around live concerts a lot is something that.. obviously it's not happening right now and. And we’re recording a podcast and stuff.
D: Right now we just record podcasts in our fucking rooms like idiots.
J: But, hey, it's about music and it's fun. And that's why I love doing it.
D: Right. Yeah. So you and Ash in a similar place, the like, whole, you’re trying to be the jack of all trades. “I'm going to be a musician and also an engineer and also a producer and also everything else.” And then there's me and I'm like, “I'm going to do one thing.” [Laugh] “I'm going to do one thing and thats going to be it.”
J: You’ll be really good at it.
D: Yeah. So this week, I guess I should talk about what the format is. I kind of just said the formats changing, uh.. formats changing. We're going to talk about, just like an album I think. It's going to probably be around like three people each time. I'm going to be here. Hopefully we can start transitioning into me not being the constant host at some point because I do unfortunately have to graduate at a certain point and I don't get to work here anymore. Yeah, so sad. I'm the ancient leviathan that still exists at PSPS.
J: You have so much knowledge.
D: Do I though? [Laughter] I mean.. I have some.
J: You have more than me.
D: Well yeah, I guess, but like, I don't know how to play marimba.. anymore. But yeah. So at some point I won't be on the show anymore and someone else will have to forget how to introduce the show every single time. But not this week. This week we are transitioning to another new format after our short lived music history podcast part. We're going to talk about an album that I suggested called Complex or Com-plex. I don't know if it's like the noun or the adjective. I like stuff like that. I'm going to assume it's complex, like the adjective, by an artist called Montaigne. So a little bit about Montaigne. She is a 25 year old singer songwriter art-pop kind of person from Australia. She's from New South Wales, Sydney, you know, the only city on Australia most of us know. Her actual.. her birth name.. Well, her real name, Montaigne's the stage name, is Jessica Alyssa Cerro. And she's kind of just been doing music since she was in high school, honestly, like it seems that she graduated high school and started working on her career as a songwriter and as a musician because she clearly has some significant natural talent. I personally came upon Montaigne through kind of a weird means of finding a musician. I listen to a podcast that recently needed to change their theme song, like their intro song, because the person who wrote it turned out to be kind of.. like had said some shitty stuff on Twitter like ten years ago. And they were like “Yeah, fuck that guy, we need a new theme song.”
J: Get him outta here.
D: And she is a listener of the podcast. So she was like, “I’ll write a theme song for you.” And they were like, “OK!”. And so I, you know, heard this new song for this podcast I've been listening to forever. And I was like, “That. Fucking. Slaps!” And then they had her on the show and she was like, really cool and kind and charming. And I was like, “I need to check her music out.” And I absolutely adore it.
J: It’s really good.
A: Yeah.
D: So I made these two listen to it. So we listened to her sophomore album, Complex or Com-plex. We're going to assume its the adjective. Its a 2019 album. Singles were coming out for it, though, for a couple of years. That's about it. I want to know.. I've listened to this album, like in the last month I've listened to it at least like two or three times a week because I really, really think it's super cool. I want to know from the two of you what you're like, gut-check first reaction was to it. Just like the first.. what did you get from it? Like immediately, without like, digging into it more.
A: I don't know. I thought her voice really reminded me of like, Murena and Kimbra very much.
D: Yes.
A: I don't know. It's cool. You could tell that she is very like, stream of consciousness with the lyrics a little bit, but also like she has really good control over her vocals which is nice.. and yeah.
D: Yeah, she's really clearly a very talented musician, but also very specifically a talented vocalist because she has this like crazy like dynamic range and good breath.. I used to like, do choirs so.. She has good breath support, like you can hear that. She is, like, supporting these like powerful notes with, like, good breathing technique and stuff. What about you, Johnny?
J: Yeah, I agree. Just like the first thing that stuck out to me was just her singing and like how good she was and how good she sounded. Like with your comment on breath support and stuff. And another thing is like the variety of instruments that she used.
D: Yeah!
J: It felt like there are a lot of different instruments. Like with the use of strings. It kind of reminded me of some of the Beatles and their use of strings.
A: Yeah.
J: And I heard flutes at some point and then there is a bunch of different percussion. Like I heard in.. I don't know if it was.. I think it was in “CHANGE”, there is tabla. I think, I think.
D: I don't even know what that is.. What is that?
J: They're Indian drums. I think they might have been tabla.
D: I know what you're talking about. There's like a bridge.
J: They’re like hand drums. But yeah, just like so many cool percussion elements. And in another one I thought there was some timbales too.
D: Mhm.
J: And then just like the depth of the lyrics, like how, how deep the lyrics went with the meanings that you mentioned, like try listening to this for, for meaning and lyrics and stuff. And I was like “Wow, there's a lot of meaning here.”
D: There's a lot of meat on that bone, there's a lot. I read something in an interview where she was talking about this, and about this album, and all the songs were kind of written over several different years. And then were all put together into one album. It wasn't like written front to back, all in like one time period. And she.. she put it in a way that was like, “I would write a song at a certain point in my life about like something that was like, like some sort of like secret, or like something in the back of my head that was bothering me. Like some insecurity or something like that.” Like this album is full of that stuff. It's full of like, breakup songs, and like songs about like body image issues, and like stuff, like that; which I think is fascinating, especially because it wasn't written with like one specific purpose in mind. It seems like it was just like, “I wrote a song about, like, how shitty this relationship is or whatever. Right? And then it's in this album. And there's like I mean, for that example, like there's a couple of “like this relationship is bad” songs. And I would have thought they were all about one relationship, not knowing that, but they're all, I would assume, about different things.
J: That's really interesting because I just thought it was about one relationship.
D: I think that this album, my first reaction to this album was this is a breakup album like this is this is an album mostly, I mean there's some other stuff, but, you know..I was like, oh, this is mainly about like going through a shitty breakup or whatever. But then I, like, looked in closer and like, the thing that made me realize it wasn't that, is.. there's a song at the end of the album called “I am a Clown”z`. And one of the lyrics in the chorus is, “if my tongue's in my mouth, we're not meant to be”, which is like, that's not breakup lyric.. that's a sex lyric. That’s a like, “I'm having bad sex” kind of lyric. And I was like, “oh, OK”, this is more than that. This is more complex than that. Right? It's not just, like, a breakup album. [Pause] OK. The way that I want to break this conversation down, for right now, I want to know what your favorite song was and what you think the most interesting song was.. And those could be the same song. For me, they're not. So I want to know if you have this disparity of like a song you're like, “that's a fucking good song”, and then another song where you're like, “whoa, what's going on? That's fascinating”.
J: I do. I have two different songs.
D: Ok Johnny, what are yours?
J: Ok. Mine are.. I like “CHANGE” the most, just like for being like a good song to listen to.
D: It's like a marching song.
J: Yeah, I love it! It's just like so driving, and just like carries you along. And then the song that I think is like.. What was the other criteria? Most deep, or…
D: What do you think it's the most fascinating?
J: Yeah, most fascinating…
D: What just like, like picks your brain the most?
J: Probably.. “is this all I am good for?”.
D: Ok. What about you, Ash?
A: It's hard because there's a lot of good ones on here, but I think I really liked Love Might Be Found (Volcano)” because, I was listening to an interview.. I really like how that song, like the hook in that song to begin with, but I was listening to her talk about it.
D: It’s so good!
A: Yeah. And she's just like talking about how like she was in this relationship and she had to leave at some point, but like they were in L.A. and she wanted to.. she was like hoping like, what if like a volcano or like a storm was able to keep her in L.A., so she could, like, pursue this thing. [Short pause] I think it would either be that one or like “Showyourself”, which I didn't really like musically, because it's just kind of a short interlude.
D: Yeah, it's interesting.
A: But her lyrics are like, “my thoughts were finally ripe, but there was no one to feed them. Now they're fermenting.” And like you were talking about how she compiled this over several years. And like, I just feel like that's her saying, like, now I'm ready to put this all on an album. Like, “I have to get it out of me.”
D: I have not made that connection before.
J: I didn’t either.
D: It’s very clever.
J: That is.
A: Yeah.
D: Ok, so what I was saying when I rudely interrupted you was I really like the song Losing My Mind. I don't feel like I understand fully what it is about. I just think it's really.. I really like the hook and the chorus of like, “I don't know what I'm doing, I'm completely out of control, I don't know how to..” She uses a flying metaphor for, like, I think it's about anxiety. Like she doesn't know how to come down from being anxious. The metaphor is “I've flown so long, I've forgotten how to land.” And I.. get it. Like I feel that. I feel that, like I'm like, I don't know what to do now. Right?
J: Yeah.
D: And it is also just a really good pop song. My personal favorite song is, “is this all I'm good for?”. I think it's also a fascinating song. I don't think it's the most fascinating one, but I really like it. I think it's a really like instrumentally interesting song because it's mostly percussion and folk, like it's mostly like a kick drum and vocals and I think a glockenspiel.
J: Yeah.. yeah.
D: And like a small metallic marimba of some sort.
J: Muted.
D: Yeah. It's like dead, it's like they're hitting it but they're just like holding the mallet on the key as it hits. It's a really interesting song. But then theres also these really cool strings in it as well. And also, you know, like it's very clearly a song about body image issues and self-worth issues. And like, we can all probably relate to that a little bit. I know that I can! It's fun. But in my opinion, the most interesting song is Stockholm Syndrome.
J: That's a very interesting song.
A: That’s a good one.
D: I don't think it's necessarily a unique idea for a song because it basically takes this like, “I'm in a codependent, bad relationship” and compares it to Stockholm syndrome, which is, you know, not the first time that's been done. But I think that the way that it's done, like the execution of it, including the fact that the music.. the song itself is really stressful to listen to.
A: Mhm.
J: Yeah.
D: And it's just like it just continues to move. Like there's not really a chorus. It just keeps going forward. Like it's just one long verse, but it's like a five minute song and it's just really anxiety provoking.
J: Oh yeah.
D: In a way that I appreciate. And it's driving like that. The rhythmic element of it. It's like incredibly driving.
J: Yeah. That like, repeating triplet. [Emulates rhythm]
D: Yeah.
A: Yeah!
D: It's so like.. it just stresses me out. Like I am not joking. When I listen to this album I usually skip that song.
A: Hm.
D: Not because I don't think it's good, but just because sometimes I'm like, “I can't, I can't do it right now.” It genuinely stresses me out a little.
J: Yeah. I have listened to it just because it's like, that kind of song just like gets me, I don't know.. It like hypes me up.. [Laughter].. just like that instrumental aspect and stuff.
D: Right.
J: Oh yeah. It's pretty crazy.
D: I think this album is really interesting because the first half of the album, like “CHANGE” through “The Dying Song”, are like all just kind of bangers. For the most part.
A: Yeah.
D: Like “Complex” is a little bit not, and “For Your Love” is definitely not, but the rest of the front half of the album are bangers. Like pop, like proper fucking pop songs with like a very like a, B, A, C, whatever the like, you know, like verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus form is. Like all of them are like that. And then from “Showyourself” on it is like weird artpop for the most part.
J: Yeah.
D: Which I think is an interesting way to structure an album. Like you lure people in with this, like “look at it's a cool like poppy album”. And I was like, “oh this is like a nice like summer, like a Hot Girl summer album.” And then I was like, “I'm going to cry now.” [Laughter] “Time to go be sad.” Like the meme where the person's face is just completely surrounded by shadow.
J: Drastic change.
D: It's just really like that. It's really funny because every review I read of this album was like, “yeah, it's a complex album, like no pun intended, like genuinely. It's a complex album.” Horrible, horrible pun. [Pause] Did you guys do any other research on it, that you found like cool or whatever?
J: I just, I mean. I didn't know what.. to be honest.. I didn't know what Stockholm syndrome was at first. So I was like, “ok, what's that? Because that’s interesting”.
D: Right.
J: And I mean, just that whole idea of being like in this toxic, codependent relationship, I've felt that, too.
D: Wow.
J: And that is just very relatable and like hit home. And then I think there is, in “Complex” there's this part where she just repeats “messiah complex”.. Like under some lead vocals, and then there's a whole part about it.
D: Yeah.
A: Yeah.
J: That's also an interesting thing too.
D: Another really good album that does this thing is an album by a band called Joy Wave, called Content, but its content and also content as in like to be happy. And the album is about like, “how do I continue to produce things that I like but stay happy?” It's like, “how do I continue to make content and be content?” And it's a really good duality. And this album does it too, a little bit. Like.. you have this complex and this situation is complex.
A: Right?!
J: I like it. I like the dual meaning.
D: I like word-play. She has a really good slant rhyme in there.. in Stockholm Syndrome where she rhymes the word “cheating” with “lesbian”. Like you thought I was cheating with the girl from the venue.. but she wasn't a lesbian. And I think that's like.. oh, it's a really good slam.
J: Yeah.
D: I don't know. She like.. she's really good at wordplay. Like she's really good with her.. like she's very articulate to begin with and clearly is thoughtful about the words that she's writing and uses them very deliberately, which I appreciate. But she's also good at that, like wordplay and twisting things in a way I really appreciate.
J: Yeah.
A: There's a part in, I think in “READY”.. the last song where she just like throws in something about the wage gap.
J: Ooo.
A: Which if you listen to the song deeper, it's kind of about that too. It’s just like.. I wasn’t expecting that.
D: Yeah, it's also like the poppiest.. like it sounds like just any pop song out of any of the songs on the album. Except it's not like if you dig into the lyrics, and I just like literally right before we recorded went and watched the two music videos for the album, which I desperately want to talk about-and the first one is ready. It's very much about.. I don't know if the song necessarily is about this too much, but the video is about the climate crisis. Like not subtly about it, like there is text on the screen and a dude reading a poem about climate change.
J: Yeah.
D: And it's structured around, like, a student like climate strike, basically. And it’s just weird.
J: It's so good that, like, body image issues are being addressed and climate issues are being addressed in these songs and stuff. I just think that's that's really good to do.
A: Yeah.
D: Yeah.
A: I like how she's not, like, afraid to touch on this stuff without like.. some people try to be, like, super subtle with it.
D: Right.
A: And make it seem like they’re not really talking about it.
D: And then in that one song, “is this all I am good for?”, she’s like, “I wake up, I measure the skin around my waist and I have a fucking existential crisis about myself”
J: Yeah.
D: She she takes an art form, pop music, and just like makes it devoid of all.. Like assessing the subtlety of lyrics in pop music, pop lyrics are very general a lot of the time. Like they're just kind of broad, vague feelings because pop is designed to be popular. Like, that's understandable. And she's like, “yeah this one is about me, like, hating my body.” Like no fucking metaphore, no, nothing. And to your point, Ash, if someone asked me to describe this album in one word I would say that it's “vulnerable.” And you said she's not afraid to talk about this stuff. And I'm not trying to mince words because you're right. Like the album is like a public thing. But I think that one of the things that's the most fascinating is that.. the hesitancy to talk about it is apparent in the way that she writes about it.
A: Yeah, thats true.
D: Even if it is really blunt, she's still like, I don't know, there's something that feels like she's like, it feels reluctant and like she's.. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't feel like she's like, “I had body image issues.” She's like, “this is a current struggle for me. This is what I'm going through right now. And it's hard for me to say this, but I'm going to.”
J: Yeah. Sometimes it's good to voice your emotion.
D: Mm hmm.
J: She's voicing it to a lot of people.
D: She really is, yeah. Which is, you know, ultimately Ashley's like, completely correct. Like, yeah.. she's not afraid to talk about it because she's, like, putting it on a fucking record.
A: Yeah pretty much.
[Laughter]
D: I don't know, I just I feel I can feel.. and maybe it's me projecting because, like, I get the body image issues thing, I get the self health issues thing.
J: I feel like a lot of people, you know, like..
A: Yeah.
D: Yeah. I mean, like it's inherently relatable. At least I mean.. you know, not everyone has body image issues. Right? But a lot of people struggle with self-worth in one way or another. And like body image issues are just like a finer point in that broad issue. Right? So, like, I don't know.. I just I find this album and this person fascinating. Do either of you.. I know Johnny did briefly, like right before.. Did you, Ash, get a chance to watch either of the music videos for this album?
A: I did not, no.
D: Ok. I didn't explicitly request that you did, and I wasn't going to either, but then I was just like, “oh, there's music videos!”. The one for “READY” is like, just like, very much like a political activist type thing. And it is interestingly shot. Like I'm not a cinematography type person, but I'm sure you could, like, get deep into the analysis of the weird decisions that are made in that video. I'm not going to do that though, because I want to talk about the one for "For Your Love". And I want to talk about that song real quick, because that song is really cool. It has a moment in it that displays what I think Montaigne is the best at; which is creating these little parts in songs that make you go, “oh, fuck.”
A: Yes! Exactly!
J: Yeah.
D: In “READY”, the bridge to “READY”, is this like haunting vocal riff. It's the whole bridge.. and it's a pop song, and then it has this really haunting vocal riff.
J: Yeah.
D: And there's other points in that, and you know, maybe it's just me picking out lyrics, but like in "is this all I am good for?" there's a good lyric that's like, “you have a soft spot for my soft spots”. which I was like, I don't know, it just feels like a very pointed, like she knows when to use these very specific, very poignant terms. And the one that I think is the best in the entire album is in "For Your Love", which is this, like, slow-building song about like a relationship and like what you've done to try to keep the relationship alive. And it kind of just, you know.. feeling free once you feel like you don't have to do that, you don't have that burden anymore. That's at least what I get from it. I don't know if you guys have any different opinions about it, but at the very end of the first chorus she has a line that's like, “smoking out your buddy, with your friends who want to fuck me”, and it just ends the verse abruptly and then goes into the chorus.. like just really suddenly, because it's a really, really, like, large thing to say in a song. Like, it's very specific.
J: The music that goes along there, too, is like super.. It just feels super dark and just like..
D: It just like drops, like off a fucking cliff.
A: Yeah the bass.
D: Like a sliding-down note into the chorus. Like it just drops out from under you in a really cool way.
J: Yeah.
D: So I find that song really.. I mean I just.. I find the whole album interesting obviously, but that song in particular..
J: On that little sliding riff I think she says, “I am a delight.” And it's so ironic because it's like that word, I'm a “delight”, but it's just like the harshest thing.
D: She's like, “your friends want to fuck me.” And she's like, “I'm a fucking delight.” I appreciate the.. sidenote.. I appreciate those things in this album. Like, this album is very clearly like personal and like private to her, but there are those moments in this album where she’s like “I kick ass”, and I’m like, “You do Jessica. Go.. fuck yeah Montaigne!” So there's this one.. So the music video for "For Your Love", which is already a really cool song, is perhaps one of the strangest music videos I've ever seen--in that I was watching it and I was like, and my office has like glass doors, and I like was like, “I feel like I shouldn't be watching this with like other people able to see”, because it was uncomfortable as fuck and I'll explain why. So it opens up and she's like.. it's like very cinematic. It's shot kind of in the style of like Alfred Hitchcock, or maybe kind of like David Lynch. It feels like an old school horror movie, the way that it's shot. So it pans up on her sitting in like an old, pretty, like, you know, ‘65 Chevy Camaro or some shit. And she's you know, like singing this song or whatever. And then she's like outside of a house, and then it cuts to her in the house, in the bedroom sitting on the bed just like staring at the wall singing this song--which is like a pretty low energy kind of creepy sounding song. And then she starts fucking tying herself up with a rope.. not like, you know, like.. and I don't mean in a she's like, you know, like.. you're trying to restrain someone in like it's a sex thing.. like in a bondage is what I'm saying.
[Laughter]
D: I'm saying she starts, like, performing like harness bondage on herself. And then the next shot is, there's a lyric in the song that's like, oh, what is it.. It's something about being like a snake.
A: “I've been a snake. I've been a dog.” That one?
D: Yeah, something like that. So like, yeah, I have been a snake and then you you see her completely bound up wriggling down the hall like a fucking snake. And then the rest of the music video goes on like that.. of her, like, being in different types of like sexual bondage. Like there's one shot of her with what's called a spreader bar, which has cuffs on either end and then there's like an extendable bar.. it's like a bondage thing.. and it's on her wrists and her hands are behind her head and she's like pouring tea with this spreader bar on. Yeah. And then, like, sitting drinking while, like, completely immobilized. So it's another one of the songs on the album that feels like it's very much about being in a shitty relationship, and being trapped in a shitty relationship.
J: Yeah.
D: And it is like the most literal metaphor that she could have gone with. Like, “I'm literally bound, like I'm literally bound up and I'm also contributing to it. I'm doing it to myself.”
J: Mhm.
A: Yeah.
D: And then at the end of the music video, which Johnny I don't think you got to..
J: I haven’t, no.
D: She like gets in her car, drives into the middle of the woods, and then sits. And that last shot is her like singing the chorus after the bridge, completely nude in a bird's nest.. like free from any sort of bondage after she was like literally tied to like a fucking clothesline. And I’m sitting here in public, like, I cannot be watching this right now. Like it's a lot.
J: It's a lot to digest.
D: It's just like, I don't know, it made me.. like I already saw that song, I feel like in that kind of light, right? Where I was like, “Oh yeah, it's about a bad relationship. It's about, like, losing that burden.” And it's a super heavy handed metaphor too right? Like, you're being bound by a thing, and at the end of the music video, you're not bound anymore.. because at the end of the music video, and at the end of the song, the character is realizing that they're, you know, free of this burden. You know, not a complicated metaphor.
J: Happy ending.
D: It's just the style in which it's executed is so aggressive.
J: Yeah.
D: And she's like, deadpan at the camera. Watching a human being be bound from their fucking wrists to their chest, wriggling on the floor like a worm--looking you in the eyes, is profoundly fucking upsetting.
A: [Laughs] A little uncomfy.
J: Yeah. Unsettling.
D: I've been going on about this one music video for a while now but, it's interesting to me that this album is a lot about like, “let me tell you about my personal fears and insecurities and shit, and like how I'm getting through it and how I'm getting over it.” And one of the only music videos for the album, she is like, actively doing something that puts her in a, like, weird power dynamic with the audience.
J: Yeah. I think that music video maybe goes into part of her feeling like over sexualized and stuff like that, in a relationship.. and being like, “is this all I'm good for?”
D: Right, yea.
J: And that, like, goes in part with the other song.
D: Yeah. It's clear that relationship issues run at the core, like it's not every song, but a good portion of the songs have something to do with some sort of relationship, even if they're like differing ones. Like, "For Your Love" is clearly about someone she was in a relationship with.. and then "Love Might Be Found (Volcano)" is clearly different, like it's a different relationship. It's a different person. I also.. I will say that I do really appreciate how much her being queer is at the absolute forefront of this album. But its, I don’t know, this is like not a hot-take from a CIS dude, but like I don't know. It's not an album about being gay. It's just like.. it's an album by a, I don't know if she's gay or bi, and it's none of my fucking business quite frankly.. but it's just like a very I don't know.. I appreciate how like her queerness is in the forefront of the album, especially because one of the other things that I'm familiar with her from, is that she is going to be Australia's person to send a Eurovision this year.. if you guys know what Eurovision is. And for those that don't, Eurovision is a song contest that a lot of European countries send someone to. And it's like Buckwild, like it's fucking crazy. Like one year, like I don't know, I think it was Russia that sent, like, two women to perform a pop duet, and they, like, made it look like they were conjoined twins by their ponytails. Another year one was like some dude running around in a hamster wheel during the entirety of someone else's song. One year, the winner, I think she was from Estonia.. was this, like, bearded drag queen. Like, it's a very queer like thing. And Australia is a part of it for some reason, even though Australia is not in Europe. And so, like, they were going to send her last year with a single of hers called “Don't Break Me”, which is also a really good song that's not on this album. But obviously Eurovision didn't happen because of the pandemic and they're trying to do it this year, and so Australia is sending her again with a song called Technicolor, which is also very sexual. Like, I don't know, her sexuality.. or not her sexuality in that she is queer.. but her sexuality in, like, her being a sexual person is very much in the forefront of her music. Which I think is cool, and is like.. I don’t know.. it's interesting to hear about just from like an analytical lens.
J: Yeah.
A: Yeah. I feel like she's taking back some power, because I think I was listening to something she said.. And it it was probably about “For Your Love” music video and song. She was like, “yeah, I was in this relationship with a guy and he really wanted to do, like, all these crazy sexual things. And I kind of went along with it.” But then she realized at the end that, like, that's not her.
D: Right?
J: Yeah.
A: Yeah. Freedom.
D: There's all these little things.
J: Maybe the nest is like new.. like you were saying.. it's like rebirth.
D: It totally is. Because she's sitting there, completely nude, like covering herself in it in a very, like, renaissance painting-esq kind of way.. and Renaissance paintings come from the Renaissance, which comes from the French word “renaissance”, which means rebirth. I feel like that's an over analyzation.. but also like.. just looking at her music and her music videos.. like, it could be not. It very much looks like something.
J: The album is.. Complex.
D: It’s very complex. Ok, and speaking also of Renaissance shit, regarding Montaigne.. the name Montaigne comes from a French essayist and philosopher, Michel de Montaigne--who is known for--I don't really know much about his philosophy. I don't really know much about him either, but like his whole thing.. like he basically created the idea of writing an essay. Like that format of critical.. or of expression.. is like Montaigne's shit. And in all of his portraits, he is depicted wearing a rough like a Shakespeare-style rough. And for the two of you who have looked at the album art for this album..
A: She's wearing a rough!
D: She's literally wearing a rough. I just realized this before we started recording and I was like, “Oh, that's a thing that's like a reference to the person who she's naming herself after.”
A: Damn.
D: Yeah, I don't know. There's like all these little things about her, all these little things about this artist and this album where I’m like, “Oh,it's so cool!”
J: So much depth.
D: Nice little, like, salty, spicy little like cool thing.
J: Yeah. Oh yeah.
A: For sure.
D: Yeah. You guys have other thoughts about the album.. any of the songs?
[Pause]
D: Can we just talk about the song "I am a Clown" for a second? I just think it's a good song and I want to know what you guys think about it.
J: It is a good song. Let me listen to it again real quick.
D: What the fuck does that mean by the way? Because the lyric, “if my tongue is in my mouth, we're not meant to be”, is very good. And also that she's like, “you should have found, I am a clown.” And I'm like, “what the fuck?” I’m going to look at the lyrics real quick. I got to see what it is.
J: I don’t even.. I don’t even know.
A: I really like the drums in this one. It's kind of like it sounds like she's hitting a can or something.
D: Yeah.
J: I love that. I love the like.. It sounds like someone is drumming on, like, a timbale. I think this is the one.
D: She just.. the percussion in her music is really good. Because like, I feel like you could really easily, with like artpop, just be like, “oh yeah, it's fucking..”
J: High hat. Snare.
D: You know, drums like, or like you know, more like hip-hop style like percussion. But like the percussion in this is one of the more stand up.. I mean all of the instrumentation is quite interesting.. and her use of strings is really unique. But like her percussion is--and I don't think she's a percussionist either--so this is like a collaborative effort I would imagine.
J: I think it's just cool how much different stuff she's added to the instrumental mix.
D: Right!
J: And it's apparent in that song.
D: She's just a Renaissance woman, man. She's just adding in all this weird shit. In the podcast that I heard her interviewed in that turned me on to her, she said something like she wanted to, like, acknowledge like a frequent collaborator of hers. And she was like, “Yeah, he, like always supports me with all the weird shit that I want to do--and like, hears me out.” And I was like, “that's cool.” Like, I can see how that, like, idea of like just, oh, I had this weird fucking idea and it like made it to the actual studio and like onto the track too. The lyrics of “I am a Clown”.. the second verse starts with, “My cheeks are bright red. I am a bird. Hyena-ic laughter. You probably heard.” Hyena-ic laughter?
A: Yeah. What is that word?
D: Like a hyena.
A: Who uses that?
D: It's so GOOD! Who takes the word hyena, makes it into an adjective, and then is like, “Yeah. Hyena-ic laughter. You’ve probably heard my hyena-ic laughter.”
A: Of course.
J: Of course.
[Pause]
J: Or what about “bird”? Like where does that fit in?
D: Yeah.. why the fuck? Like, I get, “My cheeks are bright red.”, because the analogy is that “I'm a clown, I'm a clown.” The song is called “I am a Clown”, and she's like, “I am a bird.”
[Laughter]
D: Like, why? Why are you a bird, Montaigne?
J: I thought she was a clown.
D: I don't know. This song is like really weird and sarcastic too, because it has lyrics like, “Life is a joke. And I'm glad I'm around to be in the punchline and to hear the sound of some people laughing. I am a clown. So why do I want those who want me to frown?” Like, what the fuck? Like I get the thing she's making, like it feels like it's kind of the imposter syndrome thing of like, “I feel like a clown around like cool people.” I don't know. That's just like, seems like what it feels like off the top of the dome.
J: Yeah. Its very.. vulnerable.
D: I’m not over that, “if my tongue is in your mouth” lyric though.
[Pause]
D: Can I.. can I read more lyrics from this song?
A: Yes.
D: They’re really good. The first verse is just, “I'm always one hint of a meaningful look from boys with one hint of reading the same books. From dressing myself in some masquerade gown and wearing this frock and my frolicking town. That is Chimera and I am a clown.
J: Chimera?
D: A chimera is like, it's like a mythical beast thats like a lion that has a scorpion's tail and big wings and like shit like that. Also--and this is a side note and you might not know--is that an iambic pentameter?
A: It sounded like it.
D: For those that don't know iambic pentameter, it's a it's a term that Shakespeare uses for like the rhythm of the verse delivered is the rhythm of a heartbeat. There's, like, some variation in like syncopation in it. But like, it's similar.
J: That’s interesting.
D: It's not delivered that way, though, to be fair.. I just kind of write it in iambic pentameter. So it's not really.
J: It would be very interesting if so.
A: Yes.
D: I feel like I just need to do a podcast.. or I just like really just straight read all the lyrics to this album just out loud because they're fucking weird. They're just so strange and clever.
A: She talks about, like, pancakes at one point.
D: I know, like, what's going on?
J: It's so interesting and yet we all get like it's about troublesome love and stuff.
D: Right. Like, we get the idiom and we get the sarcasm.
J: She’s pretty genius.
D: She's just a brilliant writer. Well, I mean, to be fair, this woman is fucking twenty five. Like we're all in our early 20s. She was born in 1995. Like I was born in ‘98. She's three years older than me.
J: Yeah.
D: And is clearly very well. She has two studio albums, both of which have been relatively successful. She's had stuff peak on Australia's charts at like number four.
J: Wow.
D: Yeah. I can't say I can't say enough good things about Montaigne and I can't recommend this album enough to, like, basically anyone. I don't listen to art-pop very much.. Or like indie pop--I listen to a little bit of indie-pop--but like, this album is just cool.
J: It really is.
D: If you like cool lyrics and clever turns of phrase, and interesting instrumentation and composition.. And also Montaigne's sense of fashion is just like kick ass and weird. Like she constantly has like a curly-like pompadour and it fucking kicks ass dude.
[Pause]
D: Any other closing thoughts about Montaigne's “Complex”?
J: It was a great album. I was pleasantly surprised.
D: It’s a good album. Everyone should go listen to it. Cannot recommend it enough because of all the little moments she creates where you're like, “Oh, shit. God, that was good!”
[Pause]
D: So I want to close out the album conversation that we're having with, like, a good choice lyric from all of us. Who wants to go first?
J: I’ll go.
D: Okay.
J: I chose from "is this all I am good for?". It’s the chorus.. “and every day I wake up and measure the skin around my waist. Is this all I'm good for?” That just hit hard. That she thinks that and deals with that problem.. and probably so many other people deal with that problem.
D: The word in that lyric for me that really impresses its meaning is “every day.” every day I wake up and measure the skin around my waist. “Every day I have the thought about, is this all I'm good for?” Am I good enough? Right?
J: Yeah, it makes it like eternal. It adds so much.
D: Right! It is constant. It is not a one time thing. It is not a dark hour. It is a routine.
J: Yeah.
A: Right.
D: What about you, Ash?
A: So mine comes from "Please You" and it's verse two. It says, “Do you know what I've done to my mind for your handshake. It was the first one I got that just wants to feel a pancake. Though. we try really hard to feel no one else is broken, this is my damn song and I'll end it when I'm done.” I just like the control there and, like, the whole song is about pleasing others and pleasing ourselves, or herself. So yeah. And also I had to throw in the pancake line because it was cool.
D: Yeah.. it's the pancake line right?
A: It really was the pancake. I really like the start of that, the like, “do you know what I've done to my mind?” That part of it is really interesting because that song is about.. you know.. it seems to be at least like pleasing other people--being a people pleaser--which is interesting because then like two songs later, there's a song called “Pleasure”, which is assumingly about pleasure. Ok, mine is also from "is this all I am good for?" Which makes me think that I was correct in saying that it was my favorite song, because Johnny and I both like it. I'm going to read the whole fucking first verse because it's all very good. It starts with what I pointed out before.. “You have a soft spot for my soft spots. Confer some softness upon my hard mind. I wish to be present. My desire deters that. I have a thirst and maybe no one can quench it. I watched Nick Cave's long legs and their steps stoked my anxieties. I will never be a swanish, dark man with an ever darkening voice. I am bright and awful, garish and young and trying to be coarse and dexterous and something I'm not.” I'm fascinated by this album because..this is not necessarily true.. this is just my understanding. My understanding is that Montaigne is a CIS woman. And the second half of that verse is, “I watched Nick Cave's long legs.” I don't know who Nick Cave is, but I assume he's a man because his name is Nick, and then she says he's a man. And those steps stoked my anxieties and I'll never be this man with this voice and these like long legs. And I was like, that's interesting, because if I wrote that--me being kind of a thick boy--I feel like that's like a reasonable and understandable lyric coming from like a man talking about body image issues, being like, I watch this skinny, handsome guy. And I was like, “why am I not that?” But hearing that from Montaigne is really interesting because she's a woman talking about, like, “I watched this man and I was like, why am I not like that man?” is, I feel like,an inherently a queer thing of her to say. I feel like that's inherently speaking to a trans experience in a way that I was not expecting in that album and that I was like, “Wow, I--not as a trans person--really relate to that.” And that seems like something that I wouldn't like, you know, like it seems like, OK, yeah. You know, people who have body image issues. Right. Like I, you know, I've been there whatever. I wasn't expecting to relate to that degree, you know, like other than the broad topic of it. And also just the word choice of, “I am bright, an awful garish and young and trying to be coarse and dextrous and something I'm not.”
J: The word choice there. Yes. That got to me.
D: “Bright and awful. Garish and young.” is so good, especially if you know what Montaigne looks like and how she dresses herself in like bright-ass fucking clothes with bright-ass hair, like super loud prints and all that kind of shit. And I'm like, “yeah!”
J: That really reminds me of like, the Renaissance type feel too.
D: Yeah.. “bright and awful garishness.”
A: “Swanish.”
J: Yeah.
D: Swanish. Yeah. Swanish, dark man with an ever darkening voice is.. it's just good. It's just.. just don't even fucking listen to the album. Just go read all the lyrics.
[Laughter]
J: Yeah.
D: Because you can read them the way that we're reading them, like literally just reading them like poetry.. because they read like poetry.
J: They really do.
D: Anyway.. Well, thank you very much for tuning into another, and ever-changing episode of Out of Phase.
[Music fades in]
D: We’re trying to do them on a monthly basis--we'll see how they go--but we're probably going to stick with this album discussion format because it's pretty free form and makes it pretty easy on us. So I hope you enjoyed. Thank you, Ashley and Johnny, for coming on. It's really good to talk to you guys about this. I'm glad we all had all these interesting thoughts about this woman's work.
J: It was super fun to be on.
A: Yeah thanks for having me.
D: Awesome! Well, we will see you guys next time. Go listen to Complex, it's very good.
[Music fades out]
[End]
Out of Phase Episode 15: SUMO
Out of Phase Episode 15: SUMO
Episode 15
S: Storm
A: Ashley
D: Drew
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[music playing]
D: The album Divididos Por la Felicidad by Sumo is Argentinian Punk New Wave.
[music fades]
D: Hello, everyone, and welcome, again, to another episode of Out of Phase presented by Portland State Production Services. New name, same bullshit. Which I think needs to go on our, like, work shirts now.
S: That would be the best catchprase.
D: Wouldn’t that be fantastic? Today I am obviously your host Drew Häfner. And today I'm joined by two friends of mine, two co-workers- Ashley Placeck and Storm Garrison. Hi, guys.
A: Hey.
S: Hello.
D: We totally weren't talking before this, so- hi. We weren't having a conversation.
S: No, not at all.
D: So natural! So today we're talking about kind of an interesting- kind of a deep cut and out of my purview for certain. We're talking about a band called Sumo and mostly talking about one of their albums called Divididos Por La Felicidad. To check real quick, I do not speak Spanish, do either of you speak Spanish at all?
A: I am not fluent, but I can say I'm like an intermediate Spanish.
S: I'm not that advanced. I took half a year of it in middle school and I've been- well, I've been around people who do speak it, though, quite a bit. So I don't understand it at a high level. But there's lots- I mean, it's close to English, so there's lots of words, a lot of context clues I can kinda understand.
D: Yeah, I'm just putting it out there that, like, I do not speak Spanish and I do know how to pronounce Spanish. I do not know how to pronounce Spanish. Aside from just being around Spanish speaking people here in Oregon.
S: Can you roll your r’s?
D: I could, but I'm not going to because I think that a white person who doesn't speak Spanish rolls their r's pretty fucking bad. I will not be doing it in this episode. Also- if we were talking about an album where all the song titles were in French, we would be good because I can speak enough French that I would be fine, but I do not speak French.
S: So, I had a friend who was, who was self-admitted Mexican and could not. Could not. Well, he self admitted that he could not roll his r’s.
D: Oh, I was like, why did he self-admit that he’s a Mexican.
A: Oh. (laughs)
S: No, I phrased that weird but he was Mexican and he told me he couldn’t roll his r’s.
D: Amazing. OK, well yeah, that's just my way of saying that, like I probably will pronounce things incorrectly because it's not a language that I speak. But one of the things that I think is really interesting about this album is the fact that a majority of it is in English. So, this was not a pick of mine or Storm’s, it’s something that Ashley came across. So I'm wondering, Ash, if you could tell us about the band, how you came across it, because it's really interesting and all of that. Just give us some background. Some context.
A: Yeah, I'll give you the deets. So, basically, a couple of months ago, I was kind of like, I should get back into Spanish. And I started taking lessons with this lady from Argentina. And she was like, talking to me and we were talking about music. And she's like, yeah, I used to have a partner who was in this band called Sumo, and I didn't really think much of it at the time. I was like, I don't know who that is at all. But then I was like, OK, I'll pop it into Spotify. And I'm like, OK, they're pretty big. Like, they have millions of plays and like they probably have some sort of thing that I should check out. So then I did. And I come to find that they're pretty well known and instrumental in shaping contemporary rock in Argentina. And the interesting part is that like the lead singer, Luca Prodan, I don't know if I'm saying that right, but he's from Italy and basically moved to Argentina at some point and is credited with bringing a lot of, like, um, reggae and postpunk to Argentina, especially at this time, where, like, they were going through wars and had like a really repressive dictator. And so a lot of the teenagers there were like trying to figure out, you know, what was music going to look like in this new era and moving out of, like, psychedelia and all that. So, I don't know. I just thought it was a really interesting story.
D: Yeah, when you told this to me and you were like, hey, I think this might be a cool episode of a podcast, I was like, oh, that sounds fucking fascinating. For the audience's reference, also, this album is from nineteen eighty five and most of their work is from- it's their discography spans nineteen eighty five to nineteen ninety one. So six years. So I'm curious what the two of you would- I know that genre is kind of like a useless concept nowadays, especially where radio doesn't really dominate, so you don't have to be grouped much. But like, if you were to assign this a genre or a couple of genres, I'm wondering what you guys would put it in, because I think it's fascinating.
A: It's weird. It's like a mix. It's like post punk, meets reggae, meets alternative rock. And like the thing about it is, um, I think at the time it probably like it wasn't marketed very widely to like the US or England or anything. It was mainly made just for the youth of Argentina. So I don't know if it would fall into the same genre categories and some other music.
D: Yeah. And that's worth considering. Certainly that genre is different in different cultures, but, I feel that this takes a lot of influence from Western music like American and European music, in addition to Caribbean and African music. What about you, Storm?
S: I would say it's like- I mean, like U2, it's hard to really paste one genre and- I would almost call it, if I had to, because- I still think genre is important, for the same way that genre for books is. It's like it gives you a general idea of what you might expect and go from there. But like you're saying, it's definitely way more fluid than it used to be. And I would say like for my personal, because I don't always agree with everybody on genre, I would say this is like experimental pop, but like, not pop, like pop, but like an experimental pastiche of different popular forms of music.
D: That's an interesting way of putting it.
S: Like, it's really cool.
D: I was listening to this on my way to work at my other job today, and I'm sitting there in the car listening to- because each track sounds like a very different genre, in my opinion. And I was like, OK, so some of these feel really new-wave, some of these feel really reggae. Some of these feel really like punk or postpunk. And I was like, is this ska? Like would this be ska? And then I was like, no, it's not ska. It is all of the things that you would describe ska as, which is like post punk, but also reggae. But it's not ska. It's super strange in that way.
S: If it were ska, it'd be the first ska album I listened to and was like, yeah, I want to listen to this again. I would say it's definitely not ska, because I’m not into ska.
D: I think it's very funny that as a group, we all kind of don't like ska.
S: It’s whatever, I don’t know. I understand- it’s fun. So I think ska is the kind of thing where sometimes at a concert or like an event or something like that I would really get into it, but it's just not something I want to listen to on purpose, you know.
D: So then OK, so here's the reason why I think that we're like, OK, the reason I think that we're floundering on the question, what genre is this? Right. Because obviously it's a fusion. It's a style. It's like a fusion style of music. And like I said, it's postpunk.
S: Pop. (pops.)
D: But I would also say that it is New-wave. Like post punk and New Wave are like sort of the same group but different.
S: Drew, you just kind of half-coined it, it’s pop fusion.
A: (gasps)
D: You know, I would say I wouldn't use the term pop. I understand why you did. And I just wouldn’t.
S: Yeah. I just I can't think of a better term to describe lots of genres.
D: I think that it is new wave reggae fusion.
S: Ok, but they're still postpunk in there, which is totally different than this other-
D: New wave and postpunk are kind of interchangeable in some ways. Like if you're talking about- Like, “The B-52 is New-wave,” like, no, that's a very distinct genre, but if you're talking about, like, The Cure, or the Talking Heads; that still falls within the purview of post punk and punk a lot of the time, because some New Wave artists that are that type of new wave still consider themselves punk artists.
A: Sorry, would Joy Division fall into that category?
D: Yeah, because I think Joy Division is like, yeah, that line between New Wave and postpunk.
A: Right. And like the album title is Divididos Por La Felicidad, which is like- divided by happiness, which is- they’re making a nod to Joy Division, basically because they were influenced by them.
D: Yes. So, OK, this is my next question actually. What influences did you hear in here? Because I heard two very specific ones wondering if anyone else picked up.
S: I was going to touch on that, whether nobody else brought it up, so I’ll just start. And in… what's the name of the song I just was listening to? I think it's not on the album, but it's one of the other ones you ask just to listen to, Ash. Estallando Desde El Oceano? That one, I was listening to and I feel like I'm listening to Rebel Yell by Billy Idol, but like done differently. And I don't mean that as a knock because I really like that song. And it wasn't like a copy but I got influences.
D: I had the same experience. These are not the two bands that I was thinking of when I was thinking that, like the big influences for these two. But when I was listening to the song Heroina, I was like, this sounds so much like the Velvet Underground. And it doesn't help that. It sounds like the Velvet Underground song Heroin. It's like, about Heroin.
S: Sorry, I just couldn't- that song, I knew, like, every time I listen to it, like right before this meeting too, I was like, this reminds me of something but I couldn't place what it is. It's Velvet Underground.
D: Yeah. So part of it was I think I went and being like, oh yeah. This, this song is- I imagine heroina is heroin in Spanish. I actually- I guess I don't know. Well, no, I do, because he sings, in English, the word heroin. I guess I personally wouldn't have known if it was heroin with an e or without an e, like, you know, the drug or the female hero or whatever. I assume it's the drug. It is a punk band. So I think that I went in listening to get a little biased because I was like, oh, it could- it's similar to this song. But I think that- and I want to get into this after- I want to hear what Ashley's influence comments are. But I- the lead singer does a really interesting thing with the voices and accents throughout their music. And I want to get into that. But anyway.
A: I noticed that too.
D: Yes. Ash, what influences do you feel are evident in this?
A: Yeah, I think-
D: You have some Joy Division.
A: Yeah, Joy Division is a big one- with his vocals. He puts a lot of like reverb in it. And just like the style that he's delivering it in is very similar. That, maybe like, Morrissey, and I don't know if the song came out after this album, but do you know that song by Primus? Jerry Was A Race Car Driver?
D: No.
S: It's been a long time since I heard it, but I-
A: You know what I mean.
S: Primus is hilarious. Yeah.
A: But I just heard, like, I don't know, really similar sounds in the first song on this album too. It comes from a lot of different things. But then there's also the fact that, like, I don't know, Caia, the last song, is all about weed and like, he basically- the accent thing. He starts talking like he's Jamaican, so-
D: Okay, I don't really want to get into this, I have one last band that I think that they draw a ton of influence from. And it's so strange to me-
S: The Wailers?
D: Who?
S: The Wailers, Bob Marley and the Wailers?
D: No, no.
S: I mean, if they're doing reggae, they're drawing inspiration from Bob, though, c’mon.
D: Yes. Yes, of course. I mean reggae broadly-
S: Yeah. I mean, it's a moot point.
D: Yeah, but this specific type of new wave reggae is what The Police are all about. And that's the one that stood out to me the most, because I guess this isn't necessarily the correct assumption. But I assume because like a lot of Argentinian people are white, like white Spanish speakers, that these people were white, that is maybe an assumption I should have not made. But I associate like white new wave reggae with The Police specifically. So, like. That's what I got. It's really interesting that all of those definitely are present in this music and all of those are incredibly diverse like that is a really wide swath of the musical spectrum. OK, I know we all really want to talk about this now. What the fuck? Why? OK, I'm going to describe the thing that I think Ashley and I are thinking and correct me if this isn’t what you're thinking. OK, the lead singer is clearly an English speaking person. You said that they were Italian, right? OK. So I wouldn't have known that. I would have assumed that they were Argentinean, but not because of the music. Just context wise. I would have assumed they were Argentinean because the lead singer does accents in the music to fit the genre of the song. So there's a really, really new wave sounding song. It's almost kind of like Talking Heads, like really New Wave. And he does like a British accent. During the song,
A: Yeah, I think- I think it was called-
D: Very baffling to me. And then the other one that got me was Caia, where he is doing like a Caribbean accent. And the man is not Caribbean. Yeah, so it was like, oh, that's kind of fucking weird. I don't know how I feel about that. So I want to know how you two feel about it?
A: Yeah, there's- I was like researching this and there's some controversy over that just because it's like, yeah, I don't know. Should you really be a white Italian dude doing that? And so maybe some of these things are outdated, right. Because like- or maybe they weren't even good at that point. Well, one of the songs too is like- the first one is all about the dumb blonde. So obviously there's some- maybe some sexism in there too. Whatever.
D: Did you notice that too, Storm?
S: Like, I definitely noticed the different accents and stuff, but I thought it was neat just because I like vocalists that have, like- that demonstrate not only necessarily range in pitch, but just ability to incorporate different vocal stylings into there. Like, that's something I really key into when I'm listening to a band. And if their vocalist can do that kind of stuff, I, I mean, maybe it's just a combination of things. But when I'm listening to stuff like that, that's- I don't know, that's not usually my first thought. Like you guys bring it up, I just didn't think about it until right now, really. I could see it being outdated or being like- but- without knowing the people and just guessing from the overall feel of the music, I think it was done in fun, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's unfortunate if they said something that was wrong or whatever, but I doubt their intent was to hurt anybody. I think, you know, so I think it's just better to show a little humility in the face of humor. Yeah.
D: No, don’t get me wrong, I don't think that's what I meant. That's not what I'm saying. I don't think that’s what Ashley’s saying either, I just-
A: Yeah. He does like a lot of very ironic things. And I think if you watch his live performance, that is his style too- just being kind of like this goofball kind of dude.
D: It seemed like it was very flamboyant, like over the top. One of the things that is really funny, because I didn't think about it in the song where he puts on a British accent I didn't like, question it, and then he did it with the like, Caribbean accent. And I was like, oh, wait, hold on. He did that in a different tongue too, what the fuck? Why are you doing that? Why are you- and I mean- Totally- I mean, like doing the British accent, I'm like, fucking whatever. I don't think there is an ethical question about that. It’s a fucking British accent. When you as a nation colonized the entire planet, we're going to make fun of you a little bit.
A: Plus, he lived there for a little while like he lived in London. So, like, maybe he has a little accent?
D: Probably not. But, you know, no justification, right? Yeah. I think it's just like doing a Caribbean accent, and a little bit like, OK, maybe maybe that's a little bit weird, but especially because that's the one that stood out to me as I was like, oh, this is like a reggae song. This is just a straight up reggae song. And he's doing the reggae voice, that like, trans-carribean accent. That's like a vaguely Jamaican, that kind of- anyway, I just- judgment aside, it fit the songs that it's done very well into the point where, like, if you're not listening critically- I mean, even if you are, like, you might not even think about it, like I didn't think about it and I was listening critically until I got to the last song on the album, it's just a very strange little style thing. But I don't think I've ever really heard other bands put on another- like I've heard other bands, especially in the punk and post punk genre like play- not play up, but just like lean into an accent. Like there's a lot of really British punk that comes out of lower class London. So like, very thick, lower class British accents. But it's not like they're doing that accent. Right, like unless I guess I could be unfamiliar. Maybe there are some. Like if the Sex Pistols did that I wouldn't be shocked, but fuck the Sex Pistols. Anyway, I'm curious as to what your favorite songs were on the album, because something that I always like to talk about, I know mine and I feel very strongly about mine because it was (chef’s kiss) beautiful.
S: Chef's kiss.
D: It was an auditory chef’s kiss, but I really, really enjoyed one of the songs on this album. I really enjoyed actually quite a bit of the album, but I want to know what your thoughts are.
S: That's a tough-
A: Yeah, you go ahead.
S: I’m just going to go with the first one that pops in my head, but I don't know if it really is my favorite, but the second song in the album, Mula Plateada. I'm totally butchering that. It's just as simple as that little guitar riff that's like in the bottom- it feels in my headphones, it feels more like bottom centered left- and it's like it's just got such shine on it. Every time I was listening to the song, I just was listening for that specifically. And it's like it's like an auditory scratch of an itch, you know, like I don't know what it is, but I just love the sound of that specific thing. And also I like The Moon, I like that it sings about the moon. My other favorite song wasn't on the album, though. It was the one I mentioned earlier that reminded me of Billy Idol. The ocean one. Talks about breaking through the ocean or something like that.
D: Yeah. Ash, can I take a stab in the dark? That one's yours as well. Maybe because I see that you're currently listening to it on Spotify.
S: Stalker.
A: Oh, no. Just kidding. Just kidding. My sister shares Spotify with me. So she's listening to it, which is good. I introduced her. Anyways. Yeah, I would, I would actually say Mula Plateada is my favorite on this album. I think it's interesting, because I was just looking it up. I didn't know what it meant, exactly, but it means Silver Mule, which is weird because he's singing Silver Moon in the song. And I just like his vocal style, the lyrics, that guitar thing that you're talking about, it's very rhythmic and weird and fun. So that one's my favorite.
D: Yeah, I have 2. I know that I said give me your favorite, but I'm going to break that rule.
S: I mean, I mentioned-
D: Yeah, you did. You did too. Well I'm glad that this is equitable here.
S: Yeah, exactly. You want to pick another one, Ashley?
A: Yeah. Oh good. Yeah. Heroin. Yeah. That one's good. That one’s really good.
D: So yeah. in terms of the song that I enjoyed the most and I genuinely thought was really good, and I really like the styling of- Heroina was also one of my favorites, like I really like it. I really like the affectation in his voice that is like mimicking kind of the- I don't know if it's deliberately trying to mimic Lou Reed. Like, I don't know if it's supposed to be like a response to Heroin. I don't know, like it doesn't talk about a lot of the same stuff except for the heroin part, but it feels very similar in that style. And I really like that, like really old 70s style of stuff like- really, really like the beginning of like alternative music, except that Lou Reed is kind of an asshole, I'm pretty sure, if I'm not mistaken, I think he's like a total piece of shit. I feel like it's probably- I know that he doesn't like Portland. That's the one thing I do know.
A: Oh, man.
D: I had a teacher in high school tell me when I was in a like English class that was about like music analysis, fucking great class, by the way. And I was doing a project on The Velvet Underground and Nico, and while we were writing about it, my teacher came over and was like, yeah, Lou Reed’s a total asshole. So I was like, why? Apparently when he came here to do a show in, like the 80s, he was like, I fucking hate Portland. Your city is gross and horrible. And I was like, OK, fuck Lou Reed I guess. Super mean for no reason. Anyway. So I really like that song just because it feels very much of a time of music that I like. A little bit ironically, but not not really- Debede is a fucking great song. There is a song on this album called Debede, and it is, I would imagine, just about disco dancing, because that's what it seems to be about. When I was listening to the lyrics, it is just like the most mid to late 80s song, like it's like that era, just like in a crystalline form. Like it's so drum machine driven with these like horns that are present throughout the album. I just, I just, it just, it just whips ass, dude, and it just is a good part of the song. That's basically all I have to say about it.
S: If I could jump in- on that song, particularly... There's a lot of- I was able to pick up Rebel Yell and Billy Idol specifically because- whenever I hear that song, on like, satellite radio. And when I'm with somebody who doesn't have, like an MP3 player or something to use, like I just listened to it because I like that song. Mainly because I just love the way the vocals are. And there's a lot of other areas on the album, like songs where I know I'm hearing the influence, but I'm not exactly sure what the influence is because it's something that I've just heard a bunch over the course of my life since growing up. But I never specifically paid attention to that artist or something, but Debede towards the last third of the song or something, and he gets kind of more raspy in his vocals. It super reminds me of something really specific, but not specific enough for me to remember what it is.
D: I’ll try and find out what it is.
S: But like, I can hear the influence from something I've heard before. Absolutely. And the way the horns come in after really hits me. It sounds like something I'm familiar with, but it's like racking my brain, trying to figure out what it actually is.
D: Yeah, it’s weird, I can't figure out what it is. It does feel very like 1985, like the drum machine and the man screaming about disco.
S: I love the drum machine.
D: It's so good.
S: When it came in, I was like, yes.
D: It's very, very, very prominent. There are a couple of songs where it’s more super prominent, but none as much as Debede. Yeah, I, I want to talk about the horns in this album because I largely don't like horns in my rock music, which is part of the reason that I don't generally enjoy ska.
S: You don’t like horns in rock, dude? You don’t know how to rock, bro.
D: Okay, so this is an auditory medium. So that joke was completely lost. But you do it for you.
S: And Ash.
D: Just for us. Yeah, that's a secret. No. Yeah, it's just- just the devil horns. Thanks for that. I don't like brass- I meant like instrument horns- I don't tend to like them in rock music. And I was off put by them a little bit in some parts of this album, like there are some songs that I was like, wow, this is really like shredding. And then all of a sudden there were horns and I was like, now it sounds like Dave Matthews, and I was not here for Dave Matthews. There are other ones, though, that I think it's really good and especially like the more reggae tracks. Like it fits really nicely, I think that. Largely speaking, the horns are like, well mixed, they're very interesting, they're very raspy, which is the sonic quality that I don't tend to associate with horns. They're almost mixed in accompaniments for the lead singer's vocals, which are sort of raspy and and and like Billy Idol in the way that Storm was saying. So I thought that it was interesting in listening to it is the way that they were mixed. But there were some times in some songs I was like, mmph.
A: It was a little too much.
D: It was a little too funky. I'm like, I would like a rock song. Thank you. You sold me on the concept of a rock song and now it is a ska song.
S: My disappointment is immeasurable.
D: But I mean that's like a personal preference. That's not like, it's not bad because of that. It's just like that's not how I want this. Like if you're setting up a rock song I want you to deliver on that. I don't really want it to become a reggae song or a funk song. Just that’s me, though. I'm not usually super into these, like kind of like very deliberate fusion genres. Like, I guess that’s not really true though, because the Clash are kind of that. But do you guys have any- do you guys have any things that stood out to you like that?
S: That I didn't like?
D: Or that you did. The horns just stood out to me, I thought that they were- I'm not saying I don't like the horns. I'm saying there were parts where I wish they weren't there. But when they were there and in a good part, like I really liked them.
S: Right. I didn't I didn't think about that. I mean, it makes sense that you don't like horns in rock since we already established that. Well, none of us really like ska. But I never thought about it really while I was listening. So, I don't know if I like horns or not in rock. I know there's a lot of examples where I don't, but this is one where I do. There wasn't any part of the album that I didn't like really. One thing that really- I'll say this, OK, so like I started, and I listened to the first song and I was like, OK, this is pretty simplistic. And you know, sometimes I tend to listen to a lot of stuff that's not. But it just depends. Right. And so I was like, this is pretty simplistic, but it's good. And then I listened to the second song and I was like, OK, this guitar, I'm really digging this. And I get to the third song, No Acabes? And I don't remember exactly how that song listens like, but by that time I was like, all right, I'm just adding this to my library. This is fun to listen to.
A: Yeah.
S: Honestly, it's really fun to listen to and what came across as just kind of more simplistic, you know, like in the 80s style, like a lot of music was more simplistic than just in general, even like popular music has really gotten more advanced over the years, in my opinion, at least a lot of it. But it's done so well. It's like- it's I would say rather than calling it simplistic, it's minimal in a way that makes sense. Like, I love how spaced out the instruments sound and how I love mixes that are full and like everything. But this mix is like the opposite, but in a way that I enjoy, there's like so much air between all the instruments I feel like- And it's in a way that doesn't bother me.
D: You know where they're drawing that from?
S: Uhhh…
D: Old school new wave. Like the Talking Heads. And Joy Division.
S: There is a lot of examples of new wave that I like, but I didn't really know, you know, what New Wave was.
D: I'll send you some new wave, because if you think that’s cool-
S: I know what it is now.
D: If you like that, you will like the Talking Heads.
S: I do like them.
D: OK, cool.
S: I just never listened to a whole album-
D: Yeah.
S: I've heard them plenty of times because my mom used to listen to-
D: Totally.
S: Them and such, so-
D: Yeah.
S: They’re cool though.
D: What about you, Ash? What stood out to you?
A: I was actually going to echo the horn thing just because, like you, like when it hit, it was good. And Debede, I really like the horns.
D: When they introduce it up front and they're like, this is what you're in for. I'm like, fuck, yeah.
A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I also really liked- sometimes he would just do these like- we were talking about rolling our r’s as white people, but like, I don't know, he did it in a stylistic way where he's doing this long crazy ass vocal trill thing that's not even a word, but like it was really fun.
D: There was a lot of that, actually. Now that you mentioned it, there's a lot of, like, vocal play in this album, but it's just silly and weird and strange, like, yeah, like- there's a lot of vocal play and a lot of popular music in the modern era. But it's not- it's usually like, I don't know, it's usually like- reserved for like O's and oohs and ahs and stuff like that or some consonants. The first song has a scat breakdown, like at the beginning of the song. There’s also like a jazz influence in some of these things. Like it's a yeah. So yeah, I totally agree with that, Ash.
A: I think that that first line in that song is ingrained in my brain now, it's like, oh, mama, ooh papa, ooh mama.
D: It’s so good.
A: Something like that. It's so fun and weird and I don't even know what's going on.
D: Yeah, I think that this album, like it's- it is so dated, like it's so fucking dated. Like it's the most- I listen to this without looking at the date. And I was like, this is the most like mid 80s music I've ever heard. But it's not dated in a bad way. Like it's not like, oh this feels like not- like it feels like it is very identifiable from a period of time. And I think it's a really good preservation of that period in time. And it's still fucking fun to listen to. Like, I really like music that feels like it's very from a particular era, even if it's not. I just wrote our most recent album of the week on a band called Greta Van Fleet, which like If I played you without the context, you would think they were from the 70s. But they're not. They're modern band. They still release music. They've just started to in the last like five years. They're really new. And so I really like very, “Oh, this feels very much like the mid 80s.” One of my favorite songs- like an example of this is Ants Marching by the Dave Matthews Band because it's the most like early 90s song I can think of. But yeah, this is like really dated in a way that I don't mean- like bad.
S: It's almost like- I didn't think about it until just now. But the way it encapsulates so many different sounds- encapsulates so many different sounds from the 80s. It's almost like an Argentinean time capsule.
D: Exactly.
S: Incorporating so many different facets of the 80s.
D: Of like post-punk and new wave and reggae and a little bit of ska, a little bit of jazz, like, it's really interesting.
A: Ash, when you were- when we were, well, when we were all talking about that little scat part in the first song, that little scat part. Yeah. I guess that sounds kind of odd.
D: You just paused back to the word scat. So you could just-
S: I know, I didn't mean to! So, um, Mamou, it reminds me almost of like Surfin Bird a little bit or something else like- like- and then another since we're talking about the influences, I know I'm backtracking, but who cares. I'm going to do it anyway. The- this- the- what's the word? I don't know, the album name- Divididos Por la Felicidad. That. The way the guitars are kind of drying out, the course would like- do, do, do, and then it's almost like they're kind of being stretched a little bit. That's another one of those things where I'm hearing something I've heard a lot. Definitely. Like I'm really hearing a strong influence from something I know, but not something I know well enough to name it. So I'm curious if you have any ideas about what it could be from.
D: I have no idea.
S: But like, are you with me? It sounds like it sounds very reminiscent- It reminds me of something and also I love the way it sounds-
D: This album- Here's the best way to put it. This album sounds very familiar, even if you've never listened to it before. Like it's taking a lot of influence and a lot of things like riffs and styles and like ways of form of vocalizing and things like that from all over the place, from all over the world. Like, I would imagine that this probably has a lot of influence from Argentinian music, like not I don't know- I don't know anything about Argentinian music, but I would guess that it probably- like some of the stuff that isn't familiar to us, would be familiar to someone from Argentina like- And also knowing that the frontman is from Italy, like probably Italy, too. Like there's probably it's- just- it's very like this homogenous-like- there's a lot that is able to be picked out like that. Be like this sounds like Lou Reed. This sounds like David Byrne. This sounds like Argentinian music. And this sounds like ska. Like super strange, weird, weird, weird, like collage. It's a collage, it's a musical collage
S: To add on to that some, that was one of my main takeaways from the album. Other than just having a good time with it and having fun music. I want to listen to it again and introduce to some people it- I was really impressed, I believe, back when we did this last summer- I remember having a conversation like this about some other album. But like, one thing I really appreciate when artists do and I think is this album is a good example of- is when they incorporate lots of different elements from different styles, but they do it well enough that instead of it sounding like how a sample played at a restaurant looks, right? Where it's just very obvious, like different appetizers, where it's more like a whole meal, where there's just all these different flavor profiles and spices mixed well enough that you can pick them out. But it still stands as its own, like thing, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's not just obvious that they're- I don’t know. I'm spinning my wheels here. You get my point.
D: I do. I have a task for us to close out the episode. Let's give this album a genre name. I'm going to pitch Argentinean New wave Reggae Fusion.
A: That's cool
D: OK. Does anyone else have anything to add or to change? Argentinean, new-wave, reggae fusion.
S: I want to put post in front of everything.
D: Post-Argentinian.
S: If you think of postmodern writing as being like, weird-
D: It’s post-Argentinian!
S: No, it's Argentinean post reggae fusion...
A: New wave rock.
D: OK, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's Argentinean post punk, new wave, reggae fusion.
S: OK.
D: Post Argentinian post-punk.
S: I am tired of saying all these words, so I'm going to go with that one.
A: Sounds good.
D: OK, so this- Well, OK. The album again. OK, yeah. I'm going, I'm going to give us a nice little soundbite. The album Divididos Por la Felicidad by Sumo is Argentinean post punk new wave fusion. Cool. Thank you very much for listening. This is another episode of Out Of Phase. We will hopefully have more episodes as the summer drags on. Thank you, Ashley, and Storm for hanging out and talking about this insane album with me- it’s a good time. Ashley, thanks for doing the research and finding this weird shit. Yeah, tune in. Tune in next time. Catch it. Catch you later. I don't know if I have an outro that I ever do, so I'm just going to leave it here. Bye.
S: Bye.
A: Bye. See you.
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