Fiore's mounted plays

This is the narrative of my dialogue with Fiore. Baron Alexander was kind enough to introduce me to Fiore at Hastilude and Pengully Armiger cunning enough to motivate me to explore further. ( Rossfechten before the Prince takes place on Facebook; there is no simple link but a search on google or facebook will reveal opportunities. )

I found myself in a dialogue with Fiore - consulting the source, then trying what I thought I understood, then returning to the source with more questions. I've been unable to practice martial arts on the mat for a decade now, and this is fulfilling something I needed. What follows is my record of my conversations with Fiore.

My process goal is to take a weekly video, and to record the questions I'm asking in the video and the answers I've reached. I found that when I tried to wrap everything up into a final production quality video I ran into a version of the perfect is the enemy of the good. The effort to drive to a video on deadline obscured a bunch of questions that were more interesting than the answers. Eventually I'd like to turn this work into a finished product, but finished product implies that I understand the question I'm asking; I don't think I'm there yet.

There are a couple of themes that are emerging that are reflected below. Below each theme I've listed my hypothesis or the next experiment I intend to try.

What is the technique?

What am I learning about how Fiore intends the play to proceed. Fiore offers a static image and a bit of poetry and the rest is left to my interpretation. What is the context? What assumptions need to be made about the opponent's speed, direction, intent, etc. At this point I'm pretty confident of the following conclusions:

The opponent will approach on a predictable vector. If the opponent wants to touch me with their lance, they must approach roughly parrallel to my line and relatively close. The closer to my line, the more effectively they'll be able to transfer energy into me.
The Boar's Tusk is a guard, not a technique. Even the upward diagonal movement that is part of the (ground) boar's tusk parry is merely one play emerging from the pluripotentiality of the boar's tusk. Riding - particularly riding at speed against an opponent riding at speed limits the number of plays.
The core play is to conceal the lance on the opposite side of the horse's neck (from the opponent), then raise the lance, drop it on the opponent's lance "an arm's lenght from the tip", beating the opponent's lance out of position and then couch my lance for the strike.

The following are my next steps.

Attempt a pass at a trot, but that is proving a riding challenge Some progress this week and my partner points out that the sitting trot is not a "normal" martial gait. But it is a goal - it will help me to understand the timing. Part of the challenge is that the riders are approaching one another, which narrows the time in which the technique can be deployed.
Long term I want to make a pass at the canter. I would love to be able to time it so that the lance descends as the horse does. This is currently beyond my skill.
I'd like to start on the paper. I've purchased a copy of Fiore in hardback to try to resolve some of the inconsistencies (different sources have different text and different plates.)

How to simulate?

For reasons I'll get around to documenting later, I have to work solo on this project. My reasons are mine, but I suspect that there are others who would like to explore Fiore but don't have access to a skilled opponent with a horse. I'm working on building a simulator in the hopes that others might benefit from what I learn. My goal is to use equipment I've got around (jump standards) in a non-destructive way (the jump standards are mostly owned by the barn, not by me personally). I may eventually build a bespoke simulator. The current simulator moves in two directions (left-right and up-down) and automatically returns to the rest position for the next pass.

I seek engineering advice
Need a better way to anchor the bungie cords
Need a better counterweight - The current counterweight (a little more than 10 pounds) is insufficient. I'd also like a better way to attach the counterweight. Current system relies too heavily on tape.
Need to attach the "ledge" more firmly. The ledge blocks the lance from pointing at the sky. It is currently held on with tape. Need to use glue or screws.
I need a better way to hold the lance in the tube. Right now I'm using an O ring which is inelegant. I'd like to drill a small hole through the tube and the lance and insert a breakaway craft stick (a dowel of 1-2 mm - just slightly larger than a toothpick.

How to film?

Fiore uses a static image. I'm going to try to figure out how to video what I understand the play to be that tells the story better than a static image. My understanding about how to film changes with each iteration.I have all but given up on the Pivo - it works fine if Bonnie and I are the only thing in the arena, but it seems to be confused by bright lights (like the arena door) and by the presence of the simulator. The Pivo still has some limited use when I practice the riding techniques. I'm going to mount the cellphone on a static tripod

I have purchased a remote start/stop button. Filming 20 minutes of warming for 15s of actual technique is foolish. Let's see if I can use the remote to set up for the passe I want.

206119

No film, no simulator. I'm still working on the assumption that (1) my sitting trot is too stiff and (2) when I'm holding a lance my core is engaged, which is blocking the sitting trot. So we worked with a lightweight bamboo lance and on riding. On transitions between walk and trot and between posting trot and sitting trot. I am optimistic; we got some sitting trot with the bamboo lance and some decent transitions.

I also spent time thinking about the exact biomechanics of the boar's tusk play, and that lead me down a side street. I created a flow to practice transition between the various techniques.

Beginning in lady's guard, parry and couch for the hit.
Drop the lance into boar's tusk; beat then counch for the hit
Drop the lance into boar's tusk again (now on the opposite side of the horse from #2)
Lift the lance over the shoulder to block pursuit.
Lower the lance to the front and switch hands, managing rein switch to review Ceara's video on that).
Lift the lance to Lady's guard and repeat.

260121

As mentioned multiple times, Bonnie and I are having trouble getting into a sitting trot while I'm holding a lance. So coach and I spent a lesson on that topic. We supported the hypothesis that when I hold the lance my core tightens in a way that interferes with the looseness needed for sitting trot. We also discovered that when I move the lance my posture shifts. In retrospect this is, to say the least, not surprising. So we worked on compensating for these two problems. In this video I'm using a bamboo garrocha pole to simulate a lance - the bamboo pole is much lighter than my carbon fiber lance. I need to build on what I learned here.

I think I also need to fix the carbon fiber lance - I'm going to add a counterweight to the lance so that it balances better. Even though the result will be heavier, I hope that the improved balance will require less core tightening from me.

The weather is going to block any progress this week. We can't even get to the barn.

260117 Simulator

Simulator

The good news is that it is level and auto-resets. When I parry it offline, it returns to the rest position before I can circle around again. Later in the design process it might be interesting to measure that, but not now. It resets both left/right and Up/Down.

As I said this is held together with more hope than design. The two bungie cords are visible - one is fastened with tape to the back of the white sleeve tube and then hooked through the front of the legs of the simulator. The second is hooked directly into the back of the tube and then to the strap that fastens the legs tightly to the jump standard. The first handles the left/right reset. The second handles up/down. I need to replace the tape with something much more robust and failure resistant.

The 10lb dumbbell is offscreen below - it is hooked to the back and hangs to the ground.

There is a 1x1 shim - the "ledge" between the base of the simulator and the bottom of the sleeve tube. Currently held on with tape and hope, it helps to prevent the lance from pointing at the ceiling. It would be lovely if this were adjustable - if I could spin a screw to raise or lower the ledge and thereby affect the angle of the lance.

Better yet would be if I could re-design the counterweight to make the lance neutral - so that it wanted to rest roughly level. I'm not sure how to do this, but I suspect that I'll somehow attach something to the back of the tube with a screw and a weight plate - so that I can screw the weight plate farther from the center to counterbalance the lance. That will only be possible if the bungie cords will auto-reset the lance.

I'm slightly concerned at the fact that the simulator is leaning forwards. The jump standard is vertical, the boards are leaning forward. The simulator is held in place with 1 carriage bolt, 1 jump pin and a relatively sturdy velcro strap so I'm not quite worried that it will fall apart. By design the holes in both the jump standards and the simulator legs are larger than the carriage bolt and jump pin. It is stable. But the lean indicates stress that I'd like to remove - the best way to do that would be to improve the counterweight.

260117

Today's priorities were first to test my filming, second to test some updates to the simulator. Technique was a distant third.

Technique

Boars tusk on the right side of the horse's neck; opponent is on the left side of the horse. The lance rises, beats the opponent offline and then couches for the blow to the opponent. (there is a corresponding video from the other side (lance on left; opponent on right). I'm parrying downwards because that strikes me as practical and realistic. The opponent's lance is moved away from me and does not threaten; even if I fail to get the hit, both my horse and I are safe.

I'm moderately pleased with this as far as it goes. This illustrates my current understanding of the first of the mounted plays. I'm still not convinced that I understand it correctly; formulating those questions will be my goal to improve the technique.

Questions

I still can't get Bonnie to a trot while holding the lance. We are working on loosening my hips and improving my position for sitting trot but weather and my health are still constraining what we can do. I would really like to do this exercise at the trot.
One of my goals for the next time that I can ride (weather is not going to cooperate this week and I've got an event this weekend that will prevent me from riding) is to merely ride Bonnie with a lance in hand. Playing with the lance, playing with weapon handling/rein handling. Attempt some of the exercises that Ceara demonstrated. My theory is that holding the lance disrupts both my core and my balance. I've got to tighten my core to hold the lance -particularly if I hold it far out in front of me. Based on something that happened during a lesson this week, and some unexpected turns that Bonnie took, I wonder if I'm not properly balanced. Just playing with the lance (no film, no simulator, nothing to distract me from the Mare and the lance) may help me to understand that. Katharine suggested that Bonnie is just confused about what I want - just riding would help to clarify that.
I'd also like to try this with a lighter lance - something closer to the javelin that I experimented with. (re-engineering the javelin is in the build queue, but waiting on weather and potentially on access to better tools).
I'm still not convinced that I understand the play correctly/fully. I've got a hardcopy of Fiore on order. The play as I am currently executing it, is practical. But it doesn't really borrow from the Boar's Tusk except in the initial position. I'd like to reread the Fiore text and then experiment with the beat on the rise, rather than on the fall

Filming

Filming was the priority goal. The Pivo utterly failed (again); it tracked me for a few minutes but then shifted to the arena wall and took several minutes of video of the arena wall. I _think_ that it gets confused when I cross the line of the simulator. To be frank, testing that hypothesis is a pretty low priority. I think I'm going to have to rely on static filming or on the assistance of a barn mate.

I'd like to return the camera to the opponent's POV for my next film.

Simulator

I've made a couple of improvements to the simulator, with a couple more still in the queue, but waiting until I can drill a hole without freezing my fingers off.

I added a 10 pound dumbbell to the back of the lance. That weight was insufficient to counterbalance the lance.
I added two bungie cords to the back of the lance. The combination of the 10 pound weight and the two bungie cords was sufficient to counterbalance the lance, but not very well. The bungie cords are held on with tape and hope. Once I drill a hole I'll be able to attach the bungie cords securely.
I have taped on a "ledge" that keeps the lance closer to level - it prevents the back edge from falling too low. This is an inelegant hack that offends me and I want to replace it.
I think that ultimately I'm going to have to find a way to add an adjustable counterweight to the back of the lance. That's going to be complicated.

260106

My focus today was on testing the simulator and the filming technique.

Technique

Not particularly proud of my execution of technique today. Adequate, but not a significant advance.

Film goals

Testing the Pivo again. Worked a bit before I started filming, but I think it was confused by the placement. I had wanted to capture from the POV of the opponent; that clutters up the visual field with jump standards and head poles, and the Pivo could not track. Didn't use the Pivo - static camera. Will need more editing.

Next time I'll move the Pivo off at a 90 degree angle. I won't be able to capture the parry from that angle, but I will learn about the Pivo.

Simulator

Significant progress today -

Simulator (have to see if I can get that picture in here directly.

I've mounted a caster on top of a platform, replaced the wheel with a PVC tube slightly larger than the lance simulator (Lance simulator is a 1" fiberglass tube"; the PVC tube is 1.25). Had to include an O ring because there is no friction between PVC and fiberglass. This gives the lance the ability to swing left/right and up/down, which allows me to simulate a parry. if I can find something more sophisticated than the O ring I'll have forward/back safety.

I'm going to need a counterweight.

260104

I've been sick, so I haven't filmed for a while. I'm still feeling a bit under the weather so we rode the prior patterns. This was a 1% day - a 15 minute ride with a 1% improvement is better than a 90 minute ride with arguments. Bonnie was super cooperative and we were successful, so we cut it short.

Technique

Rode in a bareback pad today, which I love.

Significant progress on de la Bove - rode the full from quarter line to quarterline and back. Mostly straight although we had some slippage at the end. Significantly better than we have in the past.

Grison three tangent circles was absolutely the best I've ridden this pattern. Impulsion through three circles that were approximately the right size and shape.

Grison's two circles with a turn on the haunches was ok - we've made progress on that.

Film Goals

My goal for the day was to test the barding with the Pivo. But the Pivo failed utterly before we got there. During warmup I tested the Pivo and it consistently tracked for about 30s and then went black and would not restart till I restarted both the hardware and software. Next step is Pivo support.

Simulator

Significant progress, but it isn't quite ready yet. (photos are uploading slowly - will update later.

The swivel works - a bit too well. two axis of movement.
But the lance isn't held in the holder by friction; I need an O ring or a shim or something
I will absolutely need a counterweight.
Slight errors in measurment resulted in the legs being too small - I'll have to rebuild
I need the carriage bolts - the jump pins are not secure enough. That was ultimately why I didn't test today - I don't want it falling apart next to the horse.

251221

Video 251221

(NOTE: I haven't edited this video yet - There is a lot of dead space. I'm working on it.

Technique

Playing with the lance this week I've come up with a different view on the problem. The opponent must approach on one of two lines - to my left or to my right. I'm going to continue to assume - contrary to Koets - that the opponent will approach closely - that we'll be boot to boot at the pass.

That means that my lance begins on the opposite side of the horse as the opponent. For the purposes of today's exercise I'm going to assume that everything is symmetrical; it isn't but we'll defer that.

With these assumptions the lance will rise and then descend stop the opponent's lance, displacing it downward, then couch for the strike.

Today's video shows this better than I hoped - it doesn't show a full displacement - I need to improve the simulator. But it does show the deflection and implies the subsequent strike.

There was no riding pattern today - I was trying to select off a very small achievable portion - and I succeeded only halfway. The lance play worked largely as I wanted, but I failed to achieve my filming goals. I'll try again next week.

Film goals

Primary goal for today is to improve film capture. Last time the Pivo was a complete fail; today Pivo was a fail.

I'm going to test the barding to see if that help's the Pivo to track. Hoping that bright colors arne sharp lines will improve tracking. Failed to do that - add to future research.
I had also planned to move the Pivo - possibly set up a single simulator on a short diagonal - probably B-I-H and position the pivo at M. Failed; add to future work.
Position the Pivo on the target to get a shot from between me and the simulator. I choose to abandon both of the above plans and film outdoors today; the weather was predicted the be tolerable. It was until the wind gusts hit. I did manage to place the camera below the lance to show the play (almost) from the opponent's view - the opponent would see this from above, This is perhaps the view from the opponent's horse.
Pivo was unable to track the horse. I tested before I brought the horse up and it was tracking me and my movement, but Pivo could not find or track Bonnie. We'll try again next time.
Simulator

I don't like the way the prior simulator dropped the lance at Bonnie's feet. I also would like the lance to be pointed more at my chest. I'd like there to be a way to displace downwards and to the side - which is difficult to simulate.

Because I was working outside, I was able to use taller jump standards I tied the back of the mock lance to the back jump standard and attached the lance to the front jump standard with an elastic strap. The lance can't move as freely as I want, but it was sufficient for today's technique.

Future work

Looking at one of the quintains available to me I noted that the top of the Quintain was a box that fit over the top of the jump standard - the swivel was not a repurposed dolly wheel. I cannot mate the quintain from Saito's dojo to this quintain. I should have taken pictures - will do so at the next opportunity.

That said, the box gave me an idea.I can build a short box for stability - 4x4 box, but two of the sides extend downwards - these are drilled so that they can be pinned/bolted to the holes in the jump standard. This gives me a height adjustable rossfechten simulator. I also suspect that this gives me more opportunities to attach the lance or the head.

Week 1

Reflections on Fiore's lance Paper Video

What pattern am I riding?

This video mixes Fiore with the Rossfecten before the Prince requirement to ride one of three specific patterns. I wound up riding an amalgam of two or three of the patterns, but the core is thre circles tangent to the target, then ride forward, turn on the haunches or forehand, then return.

The Rossfechten before the Prince exercise we were assigned required two fixed opponents in the arena at "L" and "I".

What is the technique

I'm currently working on Boar's tusk, but I choose to throw in a brief exploration of Fiore's third play - fleeing from the enemy. It isn't really functional but it fit within the pattern.

Within the technique this video's core question is:

"Can I beat a lance while approaching?"

Fiore states ". .. to deviate yours I will make mine enter" - at this time of this video I understood that to be a beat. There is a very narrow window when the opponents are approaching when the lances can touch one another but the lance cannot yet strike the opponent. That's the instant when the beat must occur.

This video has a subordinate goal to test whether after the beat I could return to a position where I could strike - thus the foam ball. I've seen beats that go so far off line that it is impossible to return to the line of attack and strike the opponent. I wanted to make sure I didn't do that, so I set it up to follow my beat with a strike.

What is the simulator?

I'm simulating the opponent's lance with a length of PVC laid across a jump cup. This is sufficient to practice the beat and to explore timing - the beat must be timed between the point when our lances can touch and the point where our lances can strike. Not a particularly elegant simulation, but sufficient for the context in question.

I've perched a foam ball atop the jump standard to represent the opponent's head.

The PVC is so short that I don't think the timing is realistic - I should be working with 13' lances and I should simulate the dimensions of the horse and rider better.

Week 2

Week 2 Video

What is the pattern?

The Rossfechten before the Prince exercise we were assigned required two fixed opponents in the arena at "L" and "I". We had three options for the pattern. This is de la Bove's pattern; a leg yield from one quarter line to the other and back to the first quarterline. While I find this fun to ride, I'm not yet fully successful. I'm barely crossing the centerline and not returning to the first quarterline. This is on my list for future work.

What is the technique?

I'm still exploring boar's tusk and the beat - I haven't chosen to simulate the strike and I'm not sure the beat is realistic.

What is the simulator?

Same as before - but the pattern/assig

20251213

Video: FioreLance1216

What is the pattern

The Rossfechten before the Prince exercise we were assigned required two fixed opponents in the arena at "L" and "I". We had three options for the pattern. This is (IIRC) Grisone 1550 - a circle tangent to the first target, ride to the second target, pivot and return with a second circle tangent to the first target.

What is the technique?

Boar's tusk, but I'm exploring lateral options for the beat - can I divert the opponent's lance offline to the left or the right. This is an interesting question, but fraught with problems - as S. Weeks has pointed out. The easy diversion is to my left, but if I divert the opponent's lance to my left, it will cross my body potentially dislodging me from the saddle. This error is illustrated pretty clearly when the first lance falls on the ground in front of my horse who stares at it in contempt before walking around it. Had the opponent been riding towards me I doubt I could have delivered a credible strike

I switched to "fleeing from the enemy for the ride forward and pivot - my focus is on the boar's tusk and this is here as a placeholder for future research.

The second simulator I divert the lance to my right and return to couch the lance for a strike to the target. While this looks OK, I'm not completely happy - the body mechanics don't feel natural; it doesn't flow,

What is the simulator

I was quite proud of this when I built it, but quite unsatisfied when I finished. The lances are perched atop the jump standards and the bases are fixed to a second jumpstandard. This puts the lance tip at a level that is more threatening and permits me to deliver a credible beat.

Although not visible in this video, these can also be reset from the saddle - there is twine threaded through the jump standard. I can reach out grab the twine and pull the lance back up to reset it.

BUT

I don't feel this is safe. I really don't like the way the lance fell infront of my horse.

And it is highly directional ; again, not visible, but I don't have the option to beat the lance in any direction; I've got to beat the lance in the direction that the simulator is set.

I moved the foam ball to a PVC pipe stand which I think more accurately simulates the difference between contact and measure - it helps to envision the tip of the lance, the front of the horse and the body of the opponent with dimensions. No attempt to make these dimensions realistic - just to separate the beat from the strike.

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