Paul Smith - Numbers or Proportions?
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Smith <paul@theism.net>
To: <Steve Locks>
Sent: 07 February 2000 00:27
Subject: Leaving Christianity-
Dear Steve-
Greetings! I have recently become aware of your
survey re: "Leaving Christianity," and was wondering
if you might share some corollary information that
seems pertinent.
I am in fact a former atheist, but I don't think I
would meet your criteria strictly speaking - I
attended a single meeting of a local Ethical
Humanist Society chapter during my path to
becoming an Objectivist (a philosophy that,
incidentally, I would be comfortable returning
to should I ever discard theism). I did not,
however, formally join that or any other
'freethought' organization that I checked out
on my road to Christian conversion.
Anyway, since you are actively polling people to
survey their organizational affiliations prior to
conversion one way or the other, I suppose you
will be privy to a bit of data that I've long been
curious about. This is - What percentage of atheists,
versus what percentage of various religionists, actually
participate in societies organized around their belief
systems?
My own anecdotal experience and that of those I've
been able to ask leads me to believe that organizational
participation is significantly rarer among atheists than
it is among religionists. Now I would assume that if
this disparity is real and not simply perceived, it would
have some bearing on the inferences that can be
drawn from the statistics you are collecting. However,
this is not why I write; I am genuinely curious as to
whether my perception bears out in reality or not.
Thanks for your time, and if you would choose to
share any of this information with me, I would be
most appreciative.
Cheers,
-Paul Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Locks
To: Paul Smith <paul@theism.net>
Sent: 07 February 2000 01:27
Subject: Re: Leaving Christianity-
Hi Paul,
A good question!
Jordan http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html raised a
similar point, in that there are of course proportionally fewer atheists who
attend organisations than Christians who attend church.
In fact in my original email to atheist etc. organisations on this,
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/conversion_asymmetry.html#original_email
I deliberately asked what proportion, rather than how many, of their members
converted to Christianity (or any other religion). Later, I thought that
question looked a bit like I was being sarcastic, so I changed it to "how
many" http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/qtoxtiansites.html when
writing to Christian sites.
Hopefully I could then work out proportions from finding out member numbers.
My point of asking for former members of organisations was that it should be
a guide to how well read they were on the pro/against arguments. This is not
guaranteed one way or the other by membership or not, I'm sure some
non-members will be better read than some members, but in general I was
expecting a trend. Anyway, I thought it worth a try.
As to your question:
<<What percentage of atheists,
versus what percentage of various religionists, actually
participate in societies organized around their belief
systems?>>
I'm afraid I haven't a clue! I am unaware of any statistics on this, although
it should be possible to estimate from the numbers of atheists and numbers in
an organisation in any given area. This is not work that I have done, but I
would guess that the proportion of atheists who join organisations is very
small. However, if you include the secular web as an organisation, then I
think that the on-line readership amongst atheists is quite high.
<< Now I would assume that if
this disparity is real and not simply perceived, it would
have some bearing on the inferences that can be
drawn from the statistics you are collecting. >>
Yes, I think you are right, unless I use proportions. Nevertheless, it must
still look odd when the local minister leaves Christianity. The local atheist
who joins Christianity is not quite the mirror image if Christ is leading him
to it because it is odd that Christ would not so aid the minister, missionary
etc. I think that true proportional symmetry would only mean equality on both
sides if we were talking about something like conversion between political
parties etc. Once the divine hand is postulated, it is odd that Christians
leave despite so much investment and resources etc, even if all the atheists in
societies become Christians. Meanwhile if the proportions are very different,
then that is even more odd.
Thanks for writing. I noticed there was a second entry in my "I am an
ex-atheist member of a freethought organisation, now a Christian" choice. Was
that you, or anyone you know of? I have heard no details or resources from
that person. The only one I have heard from is Jordan, whom I sought out
myself.
Meanwhile, as you will see, I am examining the resources that converts like
Jordan raise, to see if they have good reasons for converting to Christianity
that should convince others. I don't want to turn my site into another debate
site at all, rather I am investigating this due to my interest in the
conversion experience. Debates are probably inevitable, I've discovered, but
I'm not a keen participant, despite my feedback section!
Sorry I don't have full details for you, but I hope that's interesting.
Regards,
Steve
----------------
Leaving Christianity: www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Smith <paul@theism.net>
To: Steve Locks
Sent: 08 February 2000 05:33
Subject: Re: Leaving Christianity-
Dear Steve-
I must say that I enjoy your cordial style, and
will investigate your site further as time permits.
I think we're largely on the same page with
regards to our thoughts on organizational
disparities, and I may attempt some research
on my own on the matter (which I will share
with you if I do).
I should let you know that I did hit "enter"
(accidentally) while on your form, but I cannot
say which pre-conversion option was selected at
the time. If your feedback form records the
IP Address of the submitter, I could discern
whether or not I am the entry in question!
As your criteria is phrased, I believe I would
^not^ qualify for the option unless reading
_The Worldly Philosophers_, a whole bunch
of Ayn Rand, and attending a single meeting
of the Evanston, IL, USA Secular Humanist
Society happens to qualify me by some stretch.
I do in some sense accept the notion that it is
easier to be a Xtn minister with little forethought
than it is to become an atheist with similarly
little forethought. Myself, I was raised Catholic
and had no particular problems with the propositions
of that system until about college age. I was, of
course, under the impression that my own embracing
of atheism was a permanent one. However, I am in
the strange position of finding theism rationally
superior to competing belief systems while at the
same time finding most of the currently-popular
arguments for that position to be rather lacking
and sloppy. (This is a tension I hope to ease with
the fruits of my own efforts, of course!)
Much like American baseball counts the dropping of a
ball by the outfielder as an "error" on the part of the
outfielder and not a "hit" on the part of the batter, I think
many Christians can justly accuse their brethren of
dropping the intellectual ball on them. However, in my
mind it does not necessarily follow that the opposing
belief system that was ready to "score" is therefore the
superior one. This ^may^ be true, of course; I simply
posit that it is not ^necessarily^ true that the one
follows the other.
Cheers!
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
Paul Smith
"His praise is lost who
stays till all commend."
- Alexander Pope
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Locks
To: <paul@theism.net>
Sent: 09 February 2000 21:32
Subject: Fw: IP address query
Hello Paul,
Looks like we can't check where you clicked!
The poll does register the IP address, but only to make sure you can't
click twice. Unfortunately it looks like we can't interrogate it to tell who
clicked where. Nevermind, I'm sure there will be others who might have
clicked on the wrong thing too (and maybe some cheaters!) but hopefully
that background noise will even out as I get more results.
Thanks for the suggestion anyway!
Regards,
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Alxpoll <helpdesk@alxpoll.com>
To: Steve Locks Steve Locks
Sent: 09 February 2000 17:52
Subject: SV: IP address query
Im sorry.. There is no way to do that.
Andreas
Alxpoll Helpdesk
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-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: Steve Locks
Till: helpdesk@alxpoll.com <helpdesk@alxpoll.com>
Datum: den 8 februari 2000 21:19
Ämne: IP address query
>Somebody who visited one of my polls told me that he accidentally hit the
return
>button without noticing which choice he had selected.
>
>Is it possible for me to view the IP addresses of who selected what, so I
can see
>which option he selected so that I can modify the poll if necessary? Or is
there any
>other method?
>
>Thank you for any help!
>
>Steve