For example, my wizard was doing a 1v1 against my rogue/brawler friend (Douche literally became a rogue JUST for that evasion and more reflex :/)
I ended up using Hold Person on him, paralyzing him. Then I used the 'Create pit' spell however he succeeded his reflex save (Which was like +8 without his dex -_-) so while he was paralyzed and helpless, he ended up moving a square out of the pit (When you succeed reflex save on the pit, you automatically move out of the way)
So... did we do that right or was he suppose to fall into the pit? (Thus letting me win a lot faster without wasting all my spells, bloody douche with his 31 AC, +12 reflex with evasion and really high touch AC)
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Nothing says you don't, so yes. AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) White-Mage Oct 5, 2016, 08:54 pm Neadenil Edam wrote: Klorox wrote: do you even still get a ST when you're helpless? Magical items do ... so why not ?DEX=0 eliminates any conscious ducking or dodging from reflex saves leaving innate abilities and shear luck. How can innate abilities and sheer luck effect a magical pit appearing right under you while the only things you can do is think and breath? (Seriously, can't even talk) AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) taks Oct 5, 2016, 08:56 pm Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber A paralyzed creature has an effective STR and DEX of 0, so -5 penalty, but it seems the forum denizens agree you don't automatically fail. Certainly RAW does not say you fail.
This does mean somebody who is hit with a Hold Person then a Create Pit dropped underneath them still gets a save, just as if their Dexterity modifier was a -5 (don't forget to calculate as if Dex was -5, removing the existing Dex mod then subtracting 5 instead of just subtracting 5. I've known a lot of people who forget that and just subtract 5 from their normal Reflex).
Magical items do ... so why not ?DEX=0 eliminates any conscious ducking or dodging from reflex saves leaving innate abilities and shear luck. How can innate abilities and sheer luck effect a magical pit appearing right under you while the only things you can do is think and breath? (Seriously, can't even talk) Yep, just one of many examples where RAW results in odd results due to "unforeseen circumstances having unexpected consequences". In a home game this would be a DM call of the "it's stupid so no" type. In PFS you would just have to put up with the occasional peculiar result.
I had never heard of an effective asexual intil just now. AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) Diego Rossi Oct 5, 2016, 10:03 pm 3 people marked this as a favorite. Johnico wrote: You're only automatically a willing target if you're unconscious. If you're helpless you're still unwilling and therefore get a saving throw, as there isn't anything anywhere saying you don't.
Basically, the logic is that while you may not be able to actively dodge things there's still a chance of dumb luck saving you. Note that the part in the rules about a unconscious creature being a willing target is relevant for spells that require a willing target (like teleport), it has nothing to do with saving throws. You still get all your saves even if are unconscious.
This actually brings up an interesting point of consideration I often find myself thinking about.You get to make saving throws while unconscious. But because you're unconscious, you cannot make the conscious decision to voluntarily fail your saving throw.
This means that, while unconscious, you are automatically attempting to make your saving throw against Cure spells targeting you, being unable to distinguish spells while unconscious. A character may end up subconsciously resisting any attempts by their allies to resuscitate them. In addition, a character with a strong Will save and the Stalwart ability may find themselves completely unhealable by their allies through magical means.
You want a justification for how a paralyzed character manages to avoid a pit spell? As the extradimensional space forms, the warp in the local dimensions manages to shift the target just enough to the side to not fall in.
This means that, while unconscious, you are automatically attempting to make your saving throw against Cure spells targeting you, being unable to distinguish spells while unconscious. A character may end up subconsciously resisting any attempts by their allies to resuscitate them. In addition, a character with a strong Will save and the Stalwart ability may find themselves completely unhealable by their allies through magical means. The will saving throw for a cure light wounds spell is only for undead creatures, by my reading. AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) Zaister Oct 6, 2016, 07:53 am Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber Quintain wrote:The will saving throw for a cure light wounds spell is only for undead creatures, by my reading. That is my interpretation as well. This might be importatnt for superstitious barbarians. AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) Khudzlin Oct 6, 2016, 08:28 am Zaister wrote: Quintain wrote:The will saving throw for a cure light wounds spell is only for undead creatures, by my reading. That is my interpretation as well. This might be importatnt for superstitious barbarians. Interesting (I'm currently playing a superstitious barbarian). Though honestly, it's not hard to work around that. What usually happens is that, once the fight is over, the healer channels (I'm usually not the only one in need of healing), and once I can safely end my rage, I do so (and I can be cured the rest of the way). AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) burkoJames Oct 6, 2016, 08:28 am Quintain wrote:
Not by a strict read of the spell. It is well known that you can save against harmless spell, in fact that is the critical drawback to the Superstition rage power.So we look to the spell entries, and they conflict a bit.
the save entry on Cure Light Wounds is "Saving Throw Will half (harmless); see text;" This indicates a saving throw for the healing portion of the spell (that's why the harmless designation is present). The "see text" portion then references the save throw for undead, wherein the spell is definitely not harmless.
This means that, while unconscious, you are automatically attempting to make your saving throw against Cure spells targeting you, being unable to distinguish spells while unconscious. A character may end up subconsciously resisting any attempts by their allies to resuscitate them. In addition, a character with a strong Will save and the Stalwart ability may find themselves completely unhealable by their allies through magical means. Not quite.Harmless wrote:(harmless)
The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
If it doesn't desire otherwise (e.g. if it is unconscious), it automatically forgoes its saving throw. AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) Kaliel Windstorm Oct 6, 2016, 09:54 am ryric wrote: You want a justification for how a paralyzed character manages to avoid a pit spell? As the extradimensional space forms, the warp in the local dimensions manages to shift the target just enough to the side to not fall in.
If someone puts forth the effort to be that good at Reflex saves I say let them have it. Disagree entirely. First the rules regarding the spell and saving throw specifically say "Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space", not "reflex saving throw to have a warp in the extradimensional pit push him aside".Second, the character in question already gets a saving throw against hold person each round.
Round 1 - Caster casts hold person.
Subject gets a save against hold person. (on their next action)
Round 2 - Caster casts Create Pit.
Subject does not get a reflex save as they are paralyzed, and falls into pit.
Nothing unforeseen about it. Gygax himself addressed this issue way back in 1st edition AD&D:Dungeon Master's Guide wrote:
Could a man chained to a rock, they asked, save himself from the blast of a red dragon's breath? Why not?, I replied... Imagine that the figure, at the last moment, of course, manages to drop beneath the licking flames, or finds a crevice in which to shield his or her body, or succeeds in finding a way to be free of the fetters. Why not?
The 3.5 FAQ makes the same point:
I disagree. Create Pit wrote:Saving Throw Reflex negates;The spell describes how you make the save, but does not prevent you from making the save. No, the effects of hold person vs the description of what a reflex saving throw is prevents it.Saving Throw Types
Reflex
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws. 152ee80cbc
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