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Mark Whitwell is a world-renowned yoga teacher who has dedicated his life to sharing the principles of yoga as devotional practice that he learned from his teachers. Tirumalai Krishnamacharya and TKV Desikachar. Upon meeting these teachers in 1973, Mark Whitwell realized the crucial importance of the breath and the yoga tantras in realizing spiritual ideals and making use of guru figures and spiritual transmission.
Since, then, he has travelled the world sharing these basic principles of practice, and along the way giving many tens of thousands of people the tools to be intimate with their own life, something so very simple and yet so foreign in modern life. Known for his combination of humour, kindness and spontaneity, and yet not afraid to be controversial, one of Mark’s most memorable and inflammatory teachings is the sincere request that people stop meditating. Here I interview him about why he makes that request, and what he wants you to do instead.
Rosalind: Mark Whitwell, why do you ask people to stop meditating?
Mark Whitwell: I maintain that Krishnamacharya’s teaching can be distilled to five basic principles, and the fifth is this: asana, pranayama and meditation is a seamless process and you cannot meditate as a willful activity. You cannot. The later limbs of Yoga like meditation arise as siddhis, as gifts. They just come when the conditions are right. Otherwise, it’s like trying to sleep when the conditions aren’t right. It’s like trying to sleep without turning out the light and lying down. It just comes. But what has happened is that we’ve invented meditation as a ‘thing’ that you do, that you can practice. You cannot practice it. It’s the mind struggling with the mind. A thought structure on thought trying to control your mind. And trying to control your mind. Creating this problem with mind. Forever battling with mind and then you die. What deals with mind is asana, pranayama. This link of mind with whole body which is life itself, the intelligence of life then comes into the mind and the mind starts functioning from its source, from life itself. There is clarity, there is meditation.
Mark Whitwell: I maintain that Krishnamacharya’s teaching can be distilled to five basic principles, and the fifth is this: asana, pranayama and meditation is a seamless process and you cannot meditate as a willful activity. You cannot. The later limbs of Yoga like meditation arise as siddhis, as gifts. They just come when the conditions are right. Otherwise, it’s like trying to sleep when the conditions aren’t right. It’s like trying to sleep without turning out the light and lying down. It just comes. But what has happened is that we’ve invented meditation as a ‘thing’ that you do, that you can practice. You cannot practice it. It’s the mind struggling with the mind. A thought structure on thought trying to control your mind. And trying to control your mind. Creating this problem with mind. Forever battling with mind and then you die. What deals with mind is asana, pranayama. This link of mind with whole body which is life itself, the intelligence of life then comes into the mind and the mind starts functioning from its source, from life itself. There is clarity, there is meditation.
Rosalind: So if it was always there, how come there are these traditions with no asana and pranayama, only meditation?
Rosalind: So if it was always there, how come there are these traditions with no asana and pranayama, only meditation?
Mark Whitwell: This is just what happened, where meditation cults arose through Buddhism and popular movements such as TM and so forth, and they popularised meditation without its context. Its not that there isn’t meditation, meditation is a beautiful thing. It’s one of the limbs the anga of yoga, but meditation arises in the context of Yoga. So what is Yoga? Yoga is intimacy with all ordinary conditions. That is, the embrace of body/breath and the body’s experience. In that embrace, the mind is made clear, and there is meditation. For you to understand that and to practice that now, you will find that you will dive into meditative states. They will arise. They might not even require asana to precede them. You might just be on the beach down there and find that boof, I am life itself. This body is in perfect harmony with all arising. It’s obviously so because it’s a fact. That could happen. And it could happen that you finally arise into that natural state where there is no requirement for asana. And even then, you’ll probably still do it because you love it so much.
Mark Whitwell: This is just what happened, where meditation cults arose through Buddhism and popular movements such as TM and so forth, and they popularised meditation without its context. Its not that there isn’t meditation, meditation is a beautiful thing. It’s one of the limbs the anga of yoga, but meditation arises in the context of Yoga. So what is Yoga? Yoga is intimacy with all ordinary conditions. That is, the embrace of body/breath and the body’s experience. In that embrace, the mind is made clear, and there is meditation. For you to understand that and to practice that now, you will find that you will dive into meditative states. They will arise. They might not even require asana to precede them. You might just be on the beach down there and find that boof, I am life itself. This body is in perfect harmony with all arising. It’s obviously so because it’s a fact. That could happen. And it could happen that you finally arise into that natural state where there is no requirement for asana. And even then, you’ll probably still do it because you love it so much.
Rosalind: Many spiritually sensitive people have rejected yoga and turned to meditation, put off by the hot yoga and the leggings and the workout vibes and all of that. Is this valid, or is it a denial of the body?
Rosalind: Many spiritually sensitive people have rejected yoga and turned to meditation, put off by the hot yoga and the leggings and the workout vibes and all of that. Is this valid, or is it a denial of the body?
Mark Whitwell: Well the distaste is very valid. But what is going on in most of the studios is not yoga. It’s gymnastics. And the vulgarity of it only serves to drive people into a deeper problem, which is the deep body negativity embedded in some traditions.
Mark Whitwell: Well the distaste is very valid. But what is going on in most of the studios is not yoga. It’s gymnastics. And the vulgarity of it only serves to drive people into a deeper problem, which is the deep body negativity embedded in some traditions.
We have to understand the deep histories of body negativity and dualistic denial of form as a hindrance or just a mere meatsack in which our soul or essence is stuck. Coming from both inside India and outside of it. Cults of transcendence and dissociative patriarchy have had a terrible impact. So the denial of the body comes from deep cultural scars and blind spots, whereby there is this doomed and abusive attempt to escape our embodiment. And the more something is demonised, the more pain it is in, and the more pain it is in, the more you want to escape it.
We have to understand the deep histories of body negativity and dualistic denial of form as a hindrance or just a mere meatsack in which our soul or essence is stuck. Coming from both inside India and outside of it. Cults of transcendence and dissociative patriarchy have had a terrible impact. So the denial of the body comes from deep cultural scars and blind spots, whereby there is this doomed and abusive attempt to escape our embodiment. And the more something is demonised, the more pain it is in, and the more pain it is in, the more you want to escape it.
Why do we have these vulgar, struggling abusive cultures in the first place? They can only arise in a culture that does not love the body, nature, as a living manifestation of the power of the cosmos. As mother nature herself. The entire culture of sweating, working out, bullying your body in some logic of self improvement comes out of deep ontologies that see matter as inert, that postulated the divine up and away, above and beyond, the “guy in the sky by and by.” Never good enough. Sinful and guilty, and needing to be punished. Until we resolve these deep belief systems that structured most of Christian and therefore western thought, that form the basis of the modernist assumption of mind over matter, man over nature, then we will keep abusing form, including our own bodies. And as long as our forms are being abused, there will be the temptation in spiritually minded people to seek the divine elsewhere, to locate it away from this realm of suffering, to dissociate and disembody. Which is of course a continuation of the abuse. God is here. Right now, as your body. Or life, if the G word is upsetting. Life is here as you. Not waiting somewhere else.
Why do we have these vulgar, struggling abusive cultures in the first place? They can only arise in a culture that does not love the body, nature, as a living manifestation of the power of the cosmos. As mother nature herself. The entire culture of sweating, working out, bullying your body in some logic of self improvement comes out of deep ontologies that see matter as inert, that postulated the divine up and away, above and beyond, the “guy in the sky by and by.” Never good enough. Sinful and guilty, and needing to be punished. Until we resolve these deep belief systems that structured most of Christian and therefore western thought, that form the basis of the modernist assumption of mind over matter, man over nature, then we will keep abusing form, including our own bodies. And as long as our forms are being abused, there will be the temptation in spiritually minded people to seek the divine elsewhere, to locate it away from this realm of suffering, to dissociate and disembody. Which is of course a continuation of the abuse. God is here. Right now, as your body. Or life, if the G word is upsetting. Life is here as you. Not waiting somewhere else.
Yoga comes to us from cultures and a time where the body was not a hindrance, not “mere flesh”, but a location of the divine, through and through. A manifestation of consciousness. All form as the expression and play of the divine. This is the power of Tantric philosophy, the radical refusal to see embodiment as a curse of samsara and instead see it as the Goddess herself.
Yoga comes to us from cultures and a time where the body was not a hindrance, not “mere flesh”, but a location of the divine, through and through. A manifestation of consciousness. All form as the expression and play of the divine. This is the power of Tantric philosophy, the radical refusal to see embodiment as a curse of samsara and instead see it as the Goddess herself.
Rosalind: Why do you think kirtan and bhakti have taken off in the US in a way that sincere asana and pranayama (beyond gymnastics) have not?
Rosalind: Why do you think kirtan and bhakti have taken off in the US in a way that sincere asana and pranayama (beyond gymnastics) have not?
Mark Whitwell: No matter how sincere, we have a problem if there is no physicality to our practice. It might be devotion, meditation, kirtan, puja, bhakti, philosophy and so forth, but without asana and pranayama, the change will not happen. The secret is in the breath. The mind follows the breath into the whole body and the body is life. The main point is that asana is bhakti. Bandha is bhakti. Whole-body prayer to life. Engagement with life. Asana, as moving pranayama, is your principal practice. Not puja, not meditation, not kirtan, not philosophy. In the ancient times, asana was what was done in the temple to your deity. What Krishnamacharya said was there is ‘Yoga Yoga’: Yoga that is connection to life itself, you might say.
Mark Whitwell: No matter how sincere, we have a problem if there is no physicality to our practice. It might be devotion, meditation, kirtan, puja, bhakti, philosophy and so forth, but without asana and pranayama, the change will not happen. The secret is in the breath. The mind follows the breath into the whole body and the body is life. The main point is that asana is bhakti. Bandha is bhakti. Whole-body prayer to life. Engagement with life. Asana, as moving pranayama, is your principal practice. Not puja, not meditation, not kirtan, not philosophy. In the ancient times, asana was what was done in the temple to your deity. What Krishnamacharya said was there is ‘Yoga Yoga’: Yoga that is connection to life itself, you might say.
Rosalind: What about if your Yoga is meditating on a deity?
Rosalind: What about if your Yoga is meditating on a deity?
Mark Whitwell: If you are describing life itself in terms such as deity or guru or God, Yoga is the principal means of connection: and I mean your asana practice. To understand that in the tradition that is what asana is, that is what it is for. Devotion to life. Devotion to God and guru or deity if that. Like for a Christian their deity is Christ. If Christians would do a Yoga then it would a whole-body prayer to life. Christ was a great guru system, of course.
Mark Whitwell: If you are describing life itself in terms such as deity or guru or God, Yoga is the principal means of connection: and I mean your asana practice. To understand that in the tradition that is what asana is, that is what it is for. Devotion to life. Devotion to God and guru or deity if that. Like for a Christian their deity is Christ. If Christians would do a Yoga then it would a whole-body prayer to life. Christ was a great guru system, of course.
Rosalind: In terms of teaching meditation, if you’re saying it has to arise from asana and pranayama, and you’re teaching a course on meditation, then those things would have to be in there?
Rosalind: In terms of teaching meditation, if you’re saying it has to arise from asana and pranayama, and you’re teaching a course on meditation, then those things would have to be in there?
Mark Whitwell. Yes. You’re doing such a disservice to people if the concept of meditation is dislodged from its context of Yoga. Meditation is an aspect of Yogic practice, but over time meditation has been thought of as a ‘something’ in itself taken from the context which is Yoga. The very idea of meditation, popularised by Buddhism mostly, comes to us from Yogic culture. The Buddha was a Yogi! He wandered on that ancient land. He was immersed in yogic culture. Many would see Buddhism as one subculture of Hinduism, that word that encompasses so much. As something in itself it is a disservice, because in fact meditation will not arise unless there is intimacy with all ordinary conditions. Yoga is intimacy with all ordinary conditions, and then meditation arises. Prior to that, all you have is a temporary peace through dissociation. That might be useful to get you through a hard time, but it doesn’t get you to the root of the problem.
Mark Whitwell. Yes. You’re doing such a disservice to people if the concept of meditation is dislodged from its context of Yoga. Meditation is an aspect of Yogic practice, but over time meditation has been thought of as a ‘something’ in itself taken from the context which is Yoga. The very idea of meditation, popularised by Buddhism mostly, comes to us from Yogic culture. The Buddha was a Yogi! He wandered on that ancient land. He was immersed in yogic culture. Many would see Buddhism as one subculture of Hinduism, that word that encompasses so much. As something in itself it is a disservice, because in fact meditation will not arise unless there is intimacy with all ordinary conditions. Yoga is intimacy with all ordinary conditions, and then meditation arises. Prior to that, all you have is a temporary peace through dissociation. That might be useful to get you through a hard time, but it doesn’t get you to the root of the problem.
Rosalind: I experienced so much relief from meditation, how can you say I should stop? Why would you criticise something that seems to be so positive?
Rosalind: I experienced so much relief from meditation, how can you say I should stop? Why would you criticise something that seems to be so positive?
Mark Whitwell: You have probably had great relief from a glass of wine or some painkillers too, in your time. I’m not knocking that. But just like any other detachment method, people can easily get addicted. Because it doesn’t get to the root of the problem. Meditation as it is being taught and practiced, out of the yoga context, can help us get some space from incessant negative thoughts. But why is our mind filled with negative thoughts in the first place? We’re not just this faulty animal, designed to ruminate ourselves into misery. A design flaw. The very second yoga sutra tells you what yoga has to offer: to direct consciousness. To bind it in a direction of choice, which has the result of ending what it calls the incessant whirlings. What we need is more than space, it is intimacy. If you have an abusive relationship, space is a good thing. But what is even better? A non-abusive relationship. We need space from things that are destructive, harmful. And our mind doesn’t have to be that.
Mark Whitwell: You have probably had great relief from a glass of wine or some painkillers too, in your time. I’m not knocking that. But just like any other detachment method, people can easily get addicted. Because it doesn’t get to the root of the problem. Meditation as it is being taught and practiced, out of the yoga context, can help us get some space from incessant negative thoughts. But why is our mind filled with negative thoughts in the first place? We’re not just this faulty animal, designed to ruminate ourselves into misery. A design flaw. The very second yoga sutra tells you what yoga has to offer: to direct consciousness. To bind it in a direction of choice, which has the result of ending what it calls the incessant whirlings. What we need is more than space, it is intimacy. If you have an abusive relationship, space is a good thing. But what is even better? A non-abusive relationship. We need space from things that are destructive, harmful. And our mind doesn’t have to be that.
Rosalind: The metaphor that comes into my mind is that when I try and just sit down and meditate, it’s like I’m driving down the motorway and the engine is screaming, I’m in first gear and trying to go 60 miles an hour, and I suddenly realise I can put my foot on the clutch and disengage. But I lose steerage, I lose the ability to drive. And yoga feels like moving the body-mind into the actual right gear, so you can drive on the motorway.
Rosalind: The metaphor that comes into my mind is that when I try and just sit down and meditate, it’s like I’m driving down the motorway and the engine is screaming, I’m in first gear and trying to go 60 miles an hour, and I suddenly realise I can put my foot on the clutch and disengage. But I lose steerage, I lose the ability to drive. And yoga feels like moving the body-mind into the actual right gear, so you can drive on the motorway.
Mark Whitwell [laughing]: That is a good metaphor. The thing is, for every person who meditation gives some relief for, there’s another person who is just left with a sense of guilt and failure. “I should meditate.” And the biggest trap is for those who do experience some samadhis or changes of state. Now they’re really in trouble, because there is a solidification of the identity of “me, the meditator.” And that is very difficult to get rid of.
Mark Whitwell [laughing]: That is a good metaphor. The thing is, for every person who meditation gives some relief for, there’s another person who is just left with a sense of guilt and failure. “I should meditate.” And the biggest trap is for those who do experience some samadhis or changes of state. Now they’re really in trouble, because there is a solidification of the identity of “me, the meditator.” And that is very difficult to get rid of.
Rosalind: So, when you say “stop meditating”, you mean, “and start yoga instead.”
Rosalind: So, when you say “stop meditating”, you mean, “and start yoga instead.”
Mark Whitwell: Yes, but more than that. Because as we mentioned earlier, meditation is not something you can do. If you think you are doing something, if you are sitting down and “meditation”, it’s not meditation. Meditation arises naturally out of your practice, and it’s the dissolution of that sense of a doer, that sense of “I.” Meditation is a gift. Not an activity. That’s almost inconceivable in our activity and achievement oriented cultures. We can talk about “being” versus “doing”, but for most westerners, then they just start trying to do being, if you know what I mean. They get themselves very twisted up.
Mark Whitwell: Yes, but more than that. Because as we mentioned earlier, meditation is not something you can do. If you think you are doing something, if you are sitting down and “meditation”, it’s not meditation. Meditation arises naturally out of your practice, and it’s the dissolution of that sense of a doer, that sense of “I.” Meditation is a gift. Not an activity. That’s almost inconceivable in our activity and achievement oriented cultures. We can talk about “being” versus “doing”, but for most westerners, then they just start trying to do being, if you know what I mean. They get themselves very twisted up.
Look I’m not recommending any long study or years of slog or actually any progressive process at all. It’s very simple. Just do your moving and breathing in the way that is right for you – we have an online immersion over at the website, www.heartofyoga.org, where it is available by donation.
Look I’m not recommending any long study or years of slog or actually any progressive process at all. It’s very simple. Just do your moving and breathing in the way that is right for you – we have an online immersion over at the website, www.heartofyoga.org, where it is available by donation.
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