Daren
It certainly is. It's a school show with me. There might welcome everyone. Thanks for joining us this evening. It is may the 18th already.
Daren
I don't know how we got this far, but it already is. Thanks for one who's already tuned in this week to the Edtech show last night.
Daren
Damn man, you did a great job of exercising these gremlins and as we found out last night, kinda typical that.
Daren
You know the Ed Tech shows seem to be the one that had the technical issue.
Daren
Hopefully none of that this evening. Really. Looking forward to a great chat with our guests and with you as well, so please do get involved by dropping us a message or if you're so inclined, just clicking on the buttons there and offering to to phone in life.
Daren
We've got some of the regular features coming out for you that we've been using, so we will be having a vote on Tuesday and will also be able to look at weekly Wonder. But this time the balls.
Daren
Your call to see whether you know the answer so will have a look at that and obviously give you a little bit of a sleep.
Daren
Eat of what's to come tomorrow on the Fe show. So before we get started. As always, time for the edge in use. So this week has been a week when teachers have breathed a sigh.
Daren
Release instead of inhaling a face mask and got to see the faces of some students in college, the first colleagues for the first time ever, I've actually met some people today who I have been working with for months, and it's the first time I've seen the bottom half their face and nearly completely ignored them. So it's really, really refreshing. It's also been a week when research by the World Health Organisation, at least. I think it's them and not the band The Who but one of the two found that working 55.
Daren
Hours or more a week was associated with a 35% higher risk of stroke.
Daren
It is 17% higher risk of dying from heart disease compared with working a working week of 35 to 40 hours.
Daren
So something to think about. Their universities have announced that now that schools have gone back and pubs have gone back and restaurants have gone back, they've decided that they are probably going to stay online into the autumn term, which is caused a little bit of controversy over on social media. And it's been a year of exponential growth in the use of technology for learning.
Daren
And this evening has been the launch of Google's IO event with some new exciting options mentioned including.
Daren
The advent of meat in Google Docs, which I think looks like being a really, really helpful collaborative tool and also Lambda, which always thought was a performing arts Academy.
Daren
But apparently Lambda now is a kind of super supercharged Google Assistant. If you've not yet seen it, it basically you have the option to interview absolutely anything you like, and in the example they showed there was somebody interviewing.
Daren
The planet Pluto.
Daren
And it was responding to them using Google, Google's AI voice technology and then somebody else interviewed a paper aeroplane and asked it all about its longest ever flight and things like that absolutely mind blowing.
Daren
You know where these ideas come from and the fun that must be had when somebody walks into an office and says, what about if we did this and some of those cool just leave it with me, will make the.
Daren
Yeah, absolutely happen. It's very very bizarre but but magical at the same time. So as I said, it's been a year of, you know, exponential growth in in tech.
Daren
And that brings with it a lot of excitement it brings with it. A lot of frustrations, but it can also bring with it budget considerations and gaps that we need to be aware of.
Daren
And I'm joined tonight and I'm just hoping that which they let me show is going to click on the calling option.
Daren
Enjoy me, I'm John tonight Bombshell Michelle is a bit longer public speaker, presenter and she's also a deep.
Daren
Oh, for those people that don't know, the DPO is a data protection Officer so very important job and.
Daren
Absolutely vital in this day and age.
Daren
Was just joining me now.
Daren
Welcome set up. Sorry Michelle's.
Speaker 3
Oh
Speaker 3
Daren
He did not.
Speaker 2
His father used both names.
Daren
We should probably clarify that I've not just made up another name. There is actually what comes up as your username.
Daren
Is that?
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. So I often speak as Stella just because I was one of the topics I speak about is.
Speaker 2
At management partner, but it's and I use that name when I'm speaking about it so that my you know X partner doesn't can't trace that.
Speaker 2
Just to give you some context, but that's not always speaking about this evening. So no, but just so nobody is concerned or there's no.
Daren
Absolutely.
Speaker 2
I'm triggering content there so that also that's not at all what we did speak about that.
Daren
Not all, but it does fit in.
Daren
With with some of the things you might talk about later in terms of privacy and things like that as well, so something definitely to bear in mind.
Daren
I want people saying.
Daren
Hi, in the chat great to see Dave and Sammy here and sure as well.
Daren
So do please get involved if you've got any questions or you got anything you like to to comment, please get involved by the message board, or as I've said previously, you can just join in an if you would know if you wouldn't mind sharing the show on social media using the share button at the bottom of the app, that would be fantastic because every little thing helps and make sure I just changed one word there so so avoid any copyright issues. Sorry, Michelle, welcome to.
Daren
Show for those people who don't know you. Can you say this little bit about what you do? Cause it seems to be a very wide ranging kind of gamma of hats that you've got that you wear.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I apologise. I realise I didn't send you a bio, but very very briefly. So I'm a qualified teacher. I qualified in the UK.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Speaker 2
Over 20 years ago. So I'm ageing myself here. All the students told me this week that I don't look over 35 minutes so I'll get a lot of praise points for that.
Daren
Not every time, yeah.
Speaker 2
Take it, I'll take.
Speaker 2
That to the bank, but I've I've been working overseas doing quite a lot of training. Teaching English as an additional language, part of the International Baccalaureate and Swiss maturity, and then I was in.
Speaker 2
Chicken Valley for three.
Speaker 2
Yes, working with schools there, but outside of teaching.
Speaker 2
So I come.
Daren
What?
Speaker 2
Back to the UK and I didn't enjoy being back in the classroom because I wanted to kind of work on the privacy side in the past.
Speaker 2
Also work very much more my world, my rules quite hybrid Now, so I do a lot of work with the students, but that also informs their privacy work that I do.
Speaker 2
So it's pretty now. I really enjoy it.
Speaker 5
But that's it.
Daren
And that's the most important thing made, lasting short to do a job that you don't enjoy. And so where? Where is the passion for privacy? Come from them.
Speaker 3
Indent.
Speaker 2
I've always, well, I've always had quite a strong ethical.
Speaker 2
Nature I guess I I have left jobs in the past where I M in corporate ones not education. Once I hit and Dad where I have disagreed with them or I found issues with what they were doing ethically and I I guess I just I just like that side of things and over the years certainly when I was in in Switzerland I was teaching a lot of people about what.
Speaker 2
Yeah, this is a secure way to pay your. You could put this on your website and I'm not an expert.
Speaker 2
By any means, I'm not a lawyer or anything else, so privacy attorney.
Speaker 2
Or anything like that? I mean, going into Silicon Valley, I have been in rooms with people who like you.
Speaker 2
Just saying when they talk about them and this could be magical. Let's just do this. There is a lot of that and it's great, but I have fitting rooms with him where I've.
Speaker 2
Had to say, have you considered?
Speaker 2
The home you could do with that, and often this just blank faces cause you're the first person who's ever asked them.
Speaker 3
Yep.
Speaker 2
It would have you considered that this could hurt somebody?
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm not anti tech at all. I've been the first one to have an apple. My always said everybody's always love to be for years until the last three or four. We know where there's an app for that.
Speaker 3
The app.
Speaker 2
And I'm so absolutely love technology, especially with education because it's made every tissue the last year, all the things that we were told when possible, so we can't do remote there, so we can't do parents evening, online or wherever else.
Speaker 2
I know you some people don't like that or whatever, but I do think it we've we've made great leaps in inclusivity and accessibility, and technology is is very much a part of that. And yes, so I love tech.
Speaker 2
Santi 1040 fixed up.
Daren
Absolutely yeah no.
Speaker 2
I'm coming from that angle. I know till.
Daren
Now I think one of the phrases you've already used, which is one kind of sucking my mind. About 2 1/2 years ago when I started going through training for the advent of GDP are was the idea of privacy by design.
Speaker 4
Boo.
Daren
And not that.
Daren
Conversation being had at the starting point about. Okay, that's a great idea, but have you considered this?
Daren
How is that going to work? What's the emphasis? Gonna look like. I think very, very vital conversations to be having because if you don't have him at the outset.
Daren
The endpoint is far too late in it.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think, and I think that's that's my concern with a lot of the things that I see coming through schools either where I work or people ask me about things or.
Speaker 2
When I did a talk at a large tech conference on this last year and I have people all over the world, kind of Satan will help because we, you know, we were concerned about either.
Speaker 2
Why online proctoring or what you know? My kids school is using or my school is using an not in the sense that it's all bad.
Speaker 3
Speaker 2
But um.
Speaker 3
Me.
Speaker 2
Often there isn't privacy by design or areas, but they won't give it to Eunice. You ask for it so eight times out of 10, when I go back to I'm, I mean, last week I was sent a lovely email from a platform that I won't mention and they said, you know how I just sign this form because then you know somebody from your school is asked to use this and we need to, you know you have to terms and conditions and you need to have a partnership with another. Well, okay, let me just read this and I asked them for clarification.
Speaker 3
But
Speaker 2
And it's always the same. I would. It's always the same.
Speaker 2
It's yeah Oh yeah. Oh well. Website is just down. Our website has been re engineered redesigned so our privacy TNC aren't on there. Or third party sharing isn't on there.
Speaker 3
Yep.
Speaker 2
And and then they put it up. But if I hadn't asked, it wouldn't be there.
Daren
Not exactly.
Speaker 2
And then they take out the third party sharing, but they take it out for mine institution, but they've left it in for others because nobody's asked the question yet.
Speaker 2
So that's my thing. It's lovely platform.
Speaker 2
And I'm not against us using it, but if you it's kind of like buying a car to me or you ordering in a restaurant or something. You know how you know.
Daren
Or who bring in a restaurant.
Speaker 2
It starts up.
Speaker 2
Given by that member going through with Brooke.
Daren
Vaguely
Speaker 2
My English airports, while I've been along time, but yes, I'll think about that. Okay, so you go to Starbucks or somewhere or whatever your favourite you know. Providers Berry.
Speaker 2
Speaker 2
You can take a customizer. You don't get. You can get the barebones or what they want to give to you.
Speaker 2
Or you can say we can take that out on non fat vented whatever everything this is because of past night. But if you don't we're not giving that power and that concerns me.
Speaker 3
Yes.
Speaker 2
A little bit.
Daren
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3
****
Daren
As DPO as well. You must be bombarded on a daily basis, particularly in this last year where you know people of Sammy said in the app soft coming down I found this amazing app or it's amazing platform and I've signed.
Daren
Up for it and then.
Daren
I have done what? What do you?
Daren
Mean you have already created that account because.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think for.
Speaker 3
It.
Daren
Too long in education. Privacy is not been a word that exists other than sort of shutting the door in the medical room. If someone's being sick.
Daren
Do not I mean inside when GDP are came in, it's almost like people suddenly something Oso.
Daren
We shouldn't really. Just believing this stuff lying around in cupboards then and we shouldn't have no filing cabinets full of work and and planners and mark schemes and lesson observations and this and the other from 17 years ago because there was 120 in it and it seemed like a very very alien concept and I think part of the issue. I don't know how you found it, but part of the issue I think is that GDP are and the way it was worded.
Daren
Didn't really seem to fit with schools to start off with. It didn't, but none of the wording made sense to a lot of people in working in schools and necessarily understood understand what it meant.
Daren
Then we have the contrast in the conflict with sort of copper and all that kind of thing in the United States.
Daren
And I think people in some cases just assumed if you've got one badge, then you must have the other. Or if they say that they've got good levels of privacy, well then they must have.
Daren
I'm not so worried about you.
Speaker 3
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2
And I do think there's a. I think there's a middle ground. I think schools are the middle ground and there's this real kind of friction as I see it between the.
Speaker 2
What to say? So to kind of refine it down, we have such layered levels of safeguarding and professional accountability and transparency as a proof.
Speaker 2
I'm in broad strokes here, and you know anything we do. We go into the classroom for the moment. We stepped through the door.
Speaker 2
You know anything we post on social media? You know anything I say today. You know I could get fired if I say something ridiculous.
Speaker 2
You know, as it should be, you know, because you have to be accountable and you're working with young people.
Speaker 2
And you are responsible to you accountable for governors and wider stakeholders in the community. And it's it's a job that that's why we go into it, isn't it?
Speaker 2
And yet we have. We are told to to take. We kind of have these ad tech platforms that come in though.
Speaker 2
Like if you want some come and read with your kids or do something do an intervention. They have to be devious.
Speaker 3
Yes.
Speaker 2
You can't just get someone to come through the door. That's impossible, which is fine, but you can literally. Tomorrow somebody can come to me and go have signed up. I've given all our data to this shiny, glittery boxed. You know Ed set.
Speaker 3
You
Speaker 2
Even if it's something like Google or Apple or something, and can we just trust them and then we go out to the wider community and Cesar stakeholders?
Speaker 2
This is the apps that we are using and we then act in our middle ground. We act as if there's a whole thing about data controllers and processors.
Speaker 2
We take you out of it and think of it like in ethics, not think of GTR. Think of it as an ethical and they respond to social responsibility thing. How is that? Looking for our families. What is our power? Because.
Speaker 2
You know we all in saying you have to use this because you can't access your home where you won't get a grade. You can't even access the.
Speaker 2
The books I've worked in school. There is no physical textbooks. Yeah, everything was BYD and PSN online or whatever other provider. Every other providers exist.
Speaker 2
And you know it's no detriment to that platform. But that's saying if you if you can't access it or you don't want to give them your information.
Speaker 2
Where are you and should we as educators may be saying as the same in the same ways where person responsible for our own accountability and what we do in action should we be? Maybe pushing back a little bit because I find that we're not.
Speaker 2
At all, and info will lie and say that they're happy with platforms when they're not because they don't feel empowered to say this didn't work for me, or I'm worried about that.
Daren
Yeah, I know, I think.
Daren
It's really interesting point actually, because you know, over the last year, this will sort of kind of backwards and forwards in about now what is and what isn't safe in terms of things like Google Me versus Microsoft Teams versus zoom and one on one hand people, they know it's absolutely fine.
Daren
And then other people who got equal levels of.
Daren
Credibility saying will know there's definitely this problem with it.
Daren
I think that has made people kind of sit up and take notice a little bit, but.
Daren
As David said here, you know that there needs to be some kind of greater enforcement in terms of.
Daren
Be more transparent with this information without having to be asked for it like you said, but also we've got to find an easier way of.
Daren
Of educating staff is Sammy saying in the chat to show them what it is we're looking for and how do we make those informed decisions.
Daren
But that's not necessarily something that every store every trust in every local authority has got the time or or the vampire manpower today.
Daren
So no, some some people are dealing with their DPO across a whole trust. Some people across a whole local authority, but others might have a an individual's kind of stand alone stall.
Daren
Where the DPO is literally almost like flying. You know the plane as they're building it because their learning on the job.
Daren
And they're having to ask the right sorts of questions. And now I'm on the GDP are champion for my 2 schools, and sometimes I feel really bad bothering people with questions when they say I want to sign up for this.
Daren
Coz it's amazing and I go well that's great, but I need to know this. I need to know this.
Daren
I need you to do a DPI on it for me. We need to get a data search sharing agreement and they kind of look at me blankly.
Daren
And then I fire loads of questions at them and then find out why you asking all these questions.
Daren
This is not.
Daren
Because that's the questions that I'm going to be asked. So if you really want this tool, then you need to do the groundwork to find the information, and that I think is the problem that if a teacher in the classroom finds a great tool that they want to use, a lot of them are put off from even suggesting it because they.
Daren
You like all gonna have to do a load of paperwork to get it through a process and it might be weeks before it gets approved and by that time there might be something else out or something completely different or or you've missed the boat.
Daren
This is not an appropriate time to use it anymore, and I think that's a real hurdle for for schools that are you finding similar things.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean yes or no. I think I think you're completely right, Cyn.
Speaker 2
George.
Speaker 2
Speaker 2
I completely agree with you in the sense that there's there's a greater need. I'll see something the comments, so I'm sorry it's moved up cycle funding, but I'm saying, you know, I do think we need greater regulation.
Speaker 2
I think I discussed this a lot and I think like you said at the top of the conversation, if we have privacy by design, there wouldn't be a need for this.
Speaker 3
Me.
Speaker 2
And unfortunately there it's the data Wild West as far as yet tech really is the data Wild West and I won't apologise for saying that even though I love technology and I love Ed Tech.
Speaker 2
I am.
Speaker 2
And I don't want to be confrontational, Hicks. We're not here to to do that, but I I'm getting a little bit tired of laughing to kind of cushion.
Speaker 2
What I say in certain rooms are not here, but yeah to kind of pad out there and soften the feelings and consider the feelings of people who are you know wildly enthusiastic, better take.
Speaker 2
Or maybe your ambassadors and or whatever else and those. And of course these are. These are good. These are qualified. These are well intentioned people. But what about the children?
Speaker 2
What about the families and they're really forgotten in this because we are.
Speaker 2
We just not at the same time we have to kind of push back if we want regulation. I always talk about seat belts or smoking.
Speaker 2
You know, I'm old enough to remember when they used to smoke on school trips and just down the pub and there be 6 mega ran the arguments.
Speaker 2
A lot of people probably don't remember, but the arguments we used to have about whether or not you should have smoke will be able to smoke or whatever, or whether we needed it and seat belts and all the rest of it and drink and drive and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2
Um?
Speaker 2
And yet now we have it, because there was not only regulatory desire, kind of at the legislative. You know, people who were not able to do that.
Speaker 2
Once it but.
Speaker 2
The consumers want enough people, wanted it, and then if a lobby groups wanted it.
Speaker 2
I always ask you know, I always because this this platform. For instance, I was talking to you about just now about the you know they want to be stuck in the terms and conditions I'm doing the DPR A on that and I've I've completely slammed the brakes on for the moment.
Speaker 2
Because I don't mind the students using it.
Speaker 2
But I am refusing to allow us to participate as a school.
Speaker 2
Which makes me sound radiates reference and I'm not, but they are. They admitted to me when I approved slightly that they are intending to share the student data, which is quite a lot of information with third party advertisers because of course.
Speaker 2
Because you are. I mean, it's not my business. How much anybody else. But I imagine that when we're not, we're not in education for the big bucks.
Speaker 2
You know none of us are going on. I mean, I know Academy sometimes pay lot, but you know you're not going into it for the bonuses and the long error, you know the PTA, the unlimited PTO in the IPO and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2
Yeah so and we have to buy a lot of our own stuff so my question. Or is it so weird why we? Why are these companies coming in?
Speaker 2
We've got to ask, where are they going to make them money? Because I'm setting up an alternative provision, for instance, and I will not be making money on that. I don't seek to.
Speaker 2
But that is not money. The money comes in the data.
Speaker 2
And I want people to see that and push back on it. And so it really is just going. But but what about this?
Speaker 2
Could you do it for school trip? You do your risk assessment. For that we do much bigger risk assessment risk assessments are much more a pain in the rear end. The VPI is.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Speaker 3
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2
Video I mean I hate them, so yeah, I mean I quite enjoyed EPA because I've got all my, you know, I can basically fill it in and it's not just, you know.
Speaker 2
My point is as well, but when we have a lot of these privacy pressures that come in and do the DPO work, they're wonderful and their experts.
Speaker 2
But they don't see the real picture because all the time, because again of this kind of middle ground.
Speaker 3
This.
Speaker 2
So you get a lot of people saying to me, but that just wouldn't happen because that's illegal.
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, that would be completely get CPR like Ohh boy there safely.
Daren
Yeah, just like no one ever drives again, like over the speed limit, yeah?
Speaker 2
Of course, of course, and of course none of us, none of us in schools, and this comes from my final clip broken. I'm talking a lot, but it's about can see.
Speaker 2
Sense, and this is my big thing that this is one of the reasons that schools don't push back from there on this and educate their staff and don't ask their staff to do things like a risk assessment or a DPI E because an individual member of staff could perfectly happily be trained to do that even within union guidelines on workload, right?
Speaker 2
Because they would do it for school trip. OK, but they're not doing it because we don't want to have to talk about consent.
Speaker 3
Yet.
Speaker 2
Because we don't want to have to go back to the families and say this is the sharing agreement. This is the agreement we're signing up to coz most families sign an agreement whenever they joined in year seven and there were assumed to take that as informed and.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Speaker 3
Speaker 2
Consent.
Speaker 2
It really isn't cause if a lot of these families knew.
Speaker 2
Yeah it was being shared about them. They would not consent and that's the other. She does happen. We talk about consent within sex education and I'm PSA Chi when we are not actually getting it.
Speaker 2
We're making these terms and conditions and things, and that's a major major issue that schools won't address, and not because schools are evil, not because anybody is deliberately got any bad intent, but because really deep down.
Speaker 2
They you know you ask, most head teachers or principals. They just home God.
Speaker 2
It would be, Can you imagine if tomorrow every school in the UK said to its families and sent home a letter saying this?
Speaker 2
These are the terms of. This is what we're sharing effectively impulsively down and went so for this these three platforms.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Your data is being shared, despite what you said with the app. What you want the app to share? Yeah for you what we are sharing is completely separate to what you have agreed to.
Speaker 2
Do you still consent?
Daren
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Daren
We just have a quick quick ad break there and when we come back what I'd like to do is explore little bit more.
Daren
Kind of how we might come to find some solutions, but also wanted to go into that consent in a little bit more detail as well, because I think that's one of those areas that that people find a little bit conflicting sometimes because it depends on on who's given that consent or just going quick break. And when we come back we'll talk a little bit more about that consent.
Daren
And how we can work towards solving those issues?
Speaker 4
We keep you confirmation showing just why.
Speaker 4
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4
Something.
Speaker 4
Speaker 4
Where can I tell you something to do and I'm sure we are joy and everyone is attention.
Speaker 4
Happy days.
Speaker 4
Speaker 4
I look at you gay.
Speaker 4
You gay.
Speaker 4
Again.
Speaker 4
Speaker 3
Daren
Absolutely says as we.
Daren
Said that, you know we are joy FM. We are about everyone in education and on this topic of consent.
Daren
I think there's a a real kind of important part to to make more important point to make around that which comes back to the age of consent with regards to the digital, because I think that confused a lot of people.
Daren
At the outset with regards to what age different people are able to give different consent and the fact that it can be withdrawn and I'll be brutally honest prior to GDP are our school.
Daren
We operated very much on an opt out basis, so everyone was in and less they said otherwise and that made things like taking photos for trips and and getting things for display boards and the website and all kind of stuff like that really, really easy.
Daren
Because they were very, very few people we didn't have consent for, but but.
Daren
Like you're saying, Michelle, actually.
Daren
How informed were those people really in that process about what was happening to those photos of things like that?
Daren
Probably not as much as they should have been, and now it's other way round for a lot of people. It feels like a real kind of obstruction or red tape getting in the way.
Daren
But for the right reasons, and I think that's a really important point. So I mean Sammy is asking in the chat there what would be your top tips in terms of firstly to share with staff to be mindful of GDP, our privacy and consent, and secondly as well from a parents perspective about tips and what to look for.
Speaker 2
Oh, that's good questions. So the first thing I would say, obviously I think that it's really important that we have balance in our rooms and that's the first thing.
Speaker 2
And while the major battles that I've had that you know, especially in Central Valley, both going back here, is that leadership and education tends to be very white.
Speaker 2
Quite male, but white generally and relatively privileged, indifferent in their different intersections of marginalisation, but that is.
Speaker 2
The major issue when you're talking about being mindful because you it's it's a constant. I mean I'm white straight enable so I have to think all the time.
Speaker 2
Okay, So what should I, you know? What could be the risks with and I have to think, and it's very difficult within even where I work because it's very white. The school.
Speaker 2
And.
Speaker 3
Speaker 2
I think that's the problem that we don't always see the harm that can be done. We might think all this is fine.
Speaker 2
You know it doesn't matter if you know if these kids have a bit of third party data sharing, always wonderful.
Speaker 2
Get tailored ads or who you know? What harm could possibly be done and actually quite a lot, because even when we talk about tech we talk about we need to also remember there's the platforms that we just use a school.
Speaker 2
One, and I think when I read my email to you, you know it's talking about things like, you know, quote we were a Microsoft. We went on Microsoft School without sponsors, but we use them to 365. Yeah, and you know I get these emails from Cortana that I can't turn off, which annoyed me because they're saying, would you like to? You know, schedule some time for mindfulness? How bout between one and three? But I'd like to go to the bathroom.
Speaker 3
Yep.
Speaker 2
Thanks coz it again. It's it's like zoom or under dressing her slightly. But Mike these tools were not designed for with educate.
Speaker 3
He
Speaker 2
And I don't care how many air ticket you know accredited education there are and and they're wonderful people. I think you might be when you're so far not sure, but you know I don't care how many there are.
Speaker 2
They are not necessarily being paid to be in the room, and I know there not because I speak to the people who developing this stuff.
Speaker 2
Best of my places, friends and I know that you're not listening. Get me, I want you to get some people I know in the rooms with you know yeah, but we've got this DEF TV alright great.
Speaker 2
And so they are there, you know, they take if Cortana is able to say to you as my colleague was great. I love Cortana because.
Speaker 2
You know, she tells me that I reminds me that I needed to respond to that person and I'm sorry, but you know, that means that there.
Speaker 2
You know, Google just the same Gmail does the same. Yeah, you know that means that ruling every single day reading every single piece of information you are giving it, which is a highly confidential.
Speaker 3
Speaker 3
Yep.
Speaker 2
Specially for the work we do, you know it's all safeguarding, you know and things like that, so that should be.
Speaker 2
There should be some concerns there. We should be maybe saying okay, so why are we not pushing more for more bespoke?
Speaker 2
Things rather than, you know, Microsoft Teams launching its new AI thing that can listen to children. Reason isn't it great?
Speaker 2
How about something that was developed form with educators and with children in mind rather than how much data we can possibly get on children's voices? I'm sorry, but that's where it's going.
Speaker 2
I'm not, you know I love her coz I've said but can we just be?
Speaker 2
Honest.
Speaker 2
So it's it's about those kind of things like that a lot.
Speaker 2
Of the child protection software, we will.
Speaker 2
Programmes that we use another large school, but I've I've sat in meetings where we have been encouraged to fill in forms that we have on various different systems and alright name them, but.
Speaker 2
And they seem to be entirely white.
Speaker 2
Zoom calls as they are now.
Speaker 2
Well, you know, yes, that sounds upsetting, so we can be convinced into set into thinking that the information that we are giving to whatever organisation, whether its law enforcement, social services or any other organisation, platform, whatever is in the best interests of that child, that family, the school, the community, and actually often it isn't an.
Speaker 2
It's a very fine line here, isn't it? But we need to us that we need to understand that we are the middle ground and we are often the last line of defence. Those children have. All these families have.
Speaker 2
Against Yemen like this, be honest against these out deportation. Yeah, home being taken into care being profiled for lot.
Speaker 2
If I know this is, you know the worst case, and I think some people thinking there anyone using her own workout.
Speaker 2
But it can really fix it because that's all that small information that any platform has. Either you're at school I worked in, which didn't have any textbooks.
Speaker 3
No.
Speaker 2
So that means that there somewhere there's this massive conglomerate that has this corporate entity that has all these informational little Jimmy. And what levels are and whether or not he goes in and does his homework with his parents have got the apple? Whether they're engaged or not? Yeah, no. Social economic took winter phrase status, you know, with your ABC1 or not.
Speaker 3
Hey.
Daren
Now completely agree with.
Daren
That that's that's difficult, isn't it? Because that's what we need. People like yourselves. The data protection officers to be able to advise people to be able to make sure we're asking the right questions.
Daren
But it's also wide need staff and parents and students to be aware of the kind of questions that need to be asked.
Daren
You know they were very open in our schools with our students about you know, kind of what is good practise in terms of taking a photograph so that kind of thing.
Daren
Whether that's on their Snapchats on the tip, talks or whatever it might be, but but sharing.
Daren
I using kind of updated, regulated approved advice on how to deal with your information and your data, and I think there's also sometimes misunderstanding about what data is, and you know just your first name on a piece of paper.
Daren
Is data a ticking register? Is data and I think for a long time there was. There was some misunderstanding about that.
Daren
But I think there's there's also like me, you talked about the data that gets sold on, and it's actually just reminded me.
Daren
Meep
Daren
Daren
I was watching a rerun of Episode of Dragons Den about a week or so ago. Actually, I don't know if you come across it, but there's a there's a product on there that was snapped up, which was a platform called generate. I don't know if you come across that, Michelle.
Speaker 2
Oh yeah, we were discussing please.
Daren
But it's essentially it's a browser that you can use an you as the user can choose to either donate or accrue credits.
Daren
For the use of your data, so you're basically by using their browser instead of Chrome or Safari or whatever it might be for every search you do, you accrue a little bit of credit, and that adds up to discount vouchers.
Daren
You know discount codes? Opportunities for different experiences and things like that, but it's all done through you consent. By downloading and using that piece of software, but you have a choice, you either donate to charity or you would cripple yourself so you can either.
Daren
Give it to somebody else or you can build your own.
Daren
Stocks up if you like and then spend that however you want.
Daren
But the key thing there is no. Their pitch was very much about.
Daren
All these companies are using data and the vast majority of them are selling your data on.
Daren
So why shouldn't you be the one that benefits if you're happy to share your data?
Daren
Why should you be the one that benefits or someone that you choose? Be? You know the charity or not for profit be the people that benefit from you selling the data. That is probably going to be sold anyway, and I thought that was really interesting.
Daren
Want it so be honest. I could cheque it out about a look and you know they directly on average people are picking up two things on five and £25 a month from using the platform to do their searches and all that kind of thing which is not to be sniffed out. For some people you know and for a lot of people that might be the difference between putting food on the table by the end of the month.
Daren
So there's an ethical difficulty.
Daren
There because it is a little.
Daren
Bit like I've always said.
Daren
Like the lot of the National Lottery is a little bit of attack, like a tax on the poor, because the people that need the money don't play the lottery.
Speaker 3
Daren
Sorry people that don't need the money don't play the lottery. The people that need the money are spending their money all the time on the lottery in the hope that one day they gonna win and yet very rarely somebody wins big.
Daren
But overall, you're probably putting money down the drain on a weekly, weekly basis, week in, week out, and then the week you forget your numbers come up your absolutely sick and you can't even kind of contemplate that, but.
Daren
But this particular idea of.
Daren
Being able to to sell on your data as your choice.
Daren
If you wanted to.
Daren
Would that be seen as a little bit exploited, you think?
Speaker 2
Yes, sorry, I actually don't like that I have. I have a colleague who he was signed up to it. He saw it on Dragons den as well.
Speaker 3
Move.
Speaker 2
This is why I'm not very much fun at parties, but I mean I I can completely see, but I need you as an why have you got no?
Speaker 2
I'll see there were people saying white using a password manager. What you my goodness you have all your messages just coming up from your phone screens that anybody can read them. Please stop.
Speaker 2
Um, anyway, aggressive, but I I. I don't like that because I think it encouraged the data, but it kind of encourages people to think about as if they can actually own that data, but sell it, but have a kind of value on it. That's actually nothing to do with the real value of their data because.
Speaker 2
I mean, there's allsorts of there's there's privacy scholars who are much more eloquent on this and much smarter than me who have taken this apart.
Speaker 2
But I think it's kind of false because I think it's very tempting to lure people into thinking or how it will pay you for it. But actually they're making a lot more money off that than you are ever.
Speaker 2
And the kind of social justice equality side of this is that there's so much money you know. I mean, there's a reason I'm not. I'm not going to be against Pearson had it was getting to you litigation here, but there's a reason why Pearson is launched, has launched a global online school. There's a reason why all these companies have oil and gas execs on their board. And no teachers. These people are not stupid, they are. You know, very savvy and they're going into education and take in particular because they see a future. If you look at VC Twitter.
Speaker 3
Yep.
Speaker 2
He made off Edutwitter difficult of easy species, which you'll have to shower afterwards.
Speaker 2
But it's full of people going on about Edtech and how much money there is to be made on it.
Speaker 3
Yes.
Speaker 2
And yet I don't see people in education talking about how much money. Then we don't go in the staff room and how much money we made and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2
I find it quite distasteful and I think people wouldn't need to, you know to be incentivised to monetise their data if we actually you know if if these companies were paying their tax or or if we were actually having more equal society. But that's not all we need to discuss. But you see what?
Speaker 2
I'm saying we're kind of awesome.
Daren
Absolutely ever.
Speaker 2
Pulling people into an island. That's why that's why it's got snapped up on Dragons Den because of course.
Speaker 2
He did not enter fact you should be using you as a search engine, like DuckDuckGo or Brave, where you can.
Speaker 2
I mean, I love it cause I can say to the kids docket, not Google it. Say Google it. I say duck it and they love it. But it sounds a bit rude.
Speaker 3
Up
Speaker 2
Secondary, so it's a bit different, but they love it and actually I can set an an they love it because the platform is, well, you when you want to delete your search history you press the flame of the bottom you.
Speaker 2
You wear this and it comes up and it burns the entire His this the screen is all flames that come up and that's you just letting your search history. But they.
Speaker 3
That's what I.
Daren
Like to refer to as Crispy Duck? Yes.
Speaker 2
Say that is a very kind of visual. I mean I, I think it's so nice because it's made for the public and they can see all the different tracking and then people are absolutely disgusted by how many different tracking the things that happen.
Speaker 2
How many, yeah, they'd say no to cookies and and then they they are still tracking and stuff like that.
Speaker 2
So it's a really useful thing, but I I think as well the idea that you you monetise your data.
Speaker 2
Ask is missing for people. It's kind of giving candy to a child and go look at this good and then giving them an injection in the other one.
Speaker 2
Because you're going look at this hand could you don't want them to think about the fact that it's not about them necessarily.
Speaker 2
The money it's about what they do and interpret and think about you and the money that then gets given to your area or the opportunities that offer to you or your child.
Speaker 2
I don't defend digital me, but you probably aware of them. They've done really good work.
Speaker 2
This, but he's really controversial for me. Some mention that within schools.
Speaker 2
Elsa mentioned at work. When I go into schools to do workshops and stuff they don't like it and it's not because I'm trying to cause a riot inside the school with parents, but it's not something that schools are comfortable with.
Speaker 3
No.
Speaker 2
And that's the problem happen. So a few years ago you could if you just went to the government, you could just say, hey, I'm a journalist or I want to start shooter Company. Can I have all the.
Speaker 2
Later on the the students in this you know this electoral area or this geographical area. I, Bromley, or somewhere. I've now and literally you get everything names, addresses sy ND information pupil premium.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Everything, all the stuff that if I left it on the.
Daren
Train I get fired absolutely yeah and then that you're in it, yeah?
Speaker 2
Yeah, but it's it's ironic, but it's disgusting that we this is what come back to you with accountability and transparency. But it's just all this data is just out there being you.
Speaker 2
Used in often quite defarious way then so we have to kind of say, well that's great. I love using you know I love using my iPads in my Apple school or I love using G suite.
Speaker 2
My Google Scholar.
Speaker 2
So even if you're not Google Schoolar, wherever you are. Also the other issues. Like you know, today we've got this Google event and yet Google and I've got, so I've got students who are.
Speaker 2
Weather in a colour. Other marginalised identities. And they have been speaking about. It's not very well discussed in this country, sadly, but the fact that Google fired its leader in mostly black or marginalised.
Speaker 2
Identity AI ethics team very recently got rid of people that actually affects everybody. Affects you, me, everybody in the street, because if the big companies of getting rid of their ethics experts, that's you know there's a reason they got retirement. Anyway, let's not go into too far down that Rd.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
But my point is that it sounds a lot.
Speaker 2
What's?
Speaker 2
If we are not even making a statement about that, if we just carrying on going, yeah, Google's right, you don't need to be against Google, but you and you don't need to kind of Satan.
Speaker 2
And as an individual school Google school and you thinking well, that's disgusting what they did.
Speaker 2
To doctor Gebru and and.
Speaker 2
Lots of the other AI ethicist there.
Speaker 2
But you could still make a statement. You could still address that so you know, we're not we're continuing to use this.
Speaker 2
Or, you know, I still believe in in the products or you know in the utility this will be accessible.
Speaker 2
With this, but.
Speaker 2
I am concerned as I think the small things that we do or the statements they do for a lot of the white parents, that's not going to make any difference at all, but they won't necessarily care.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
But for you, if you are marginalised students who already feel oppressed by a system, it will. It will set about a week. I don't even know how many educators in the UK, how aware of that.
Speaker 3
Daren
No, I think you could be lying about.
Daren
It is. It's one of those things that.
Daren
There isn't very publicised.
Daren
And again, that comes back to you and I say this. My students all the time. If I'm asking him to do a Google search on news items and things like that, always get them to use Incognito Windows because you know that the very fact that their accounts are being monitored skews their results towards them, and particularly the recent political.
Daren
Issues and during Brexit and during to bid as well. When there was all the the COVID denial versus everybody who was kind of like. Well, no, you're absolutely it's it's. It's terrible.
Daren
A lot of students were saying, but all I'm seeing is information telling me that it's it's not true. And also if you're reading that information in your clicking on it and you're following it up, then you're just going to get sent more of that and you're going to be.
Daren
Tidying with like minded people and you're not going to get that balance and I think again, that's another. Another ethical side of things that we do need to educate people about, not just young people but for adults as well, about the fact that you know your your search results and everything that you do is going to be affected by your online behaviour and you need to be absolutely aware of of how that might happen so that you can make it an informed decision.
Daren
Hello on the topic of decision's it's time with first and take a quick little Segway because it's cheerful Tuesday for those people who didn't know that cheerful tutor Tuesday.
Daren
So we're just about to have a bit of a public vote in the message board, so here we go.
Speaker 3
Speaker 5
You are listening to joy at bringing together everyone.
Speaker 5
Velocity FM.
Speaker 5
Daren
Read it.
Speaker 3
Speaker 5
And should she choose?
Speaker 5
Means day.
Speaker 5
Speaker 3
Speaker 3
Speaker 3
Daren
Well, that's never going to get over me. Choo Choo Tuesday. I love it.
Daren
So today it was very simple.
Daren
Don't get involved on the message board. Really, really simple with it being the week of opening up after lockdown and all that kind of thing.
Daren
And bearing in mind my own golden rule, which is I never say no to cookies, but I think that's not entirely what was meant when we were talking earlier today is hash tag is quite simple with pubs and restaurants now being open.
Daren
If you haven't already made your first choice, would you go pub or grub?
Daren
So pub or grub drop us a message on the message board. Let's see whether you'd rather be heading to the pub or out to the restaurant and already be blurred straight in there.
Daren
Sammy saying, grab Ke Robertshawe there definitely are Dave so good they named it Twice Pub Pub pub. Either that or his keys are stuck. One of the two I have to say I haven't done either yet.
Daren
I'm really holding back. I kind of I.
Daren
Don't want to be bothered?
Daren
With queuing and waiting and booking a table.
Daren
I want to be able to just walk into the pub or the restaurant and just be able to sit down, but that's just me and that's cause I'm miserable, even if it is cheerful Tuesday. So do keep those answers coming in here. You pub or grub.
Daren
Oh, Sammy said she went out yesterday, booked it for outdoors weeks ago and they took you inside. But was it raining though? You know.
Daren
Is it one of those things you didn't know what to do? What inside? So we didn't know what to do inside cause she's not been inside. Have you been outside for 15 months?
Daren
Good grief, you have white tressor wow this is amazing stuff I've I vaguely remember all of these things but I'm really struggling if I'm brutally honest with you. So there you go, pub or grub.
Daren
Outside wasn't McDonald's, there may.
Daren
Dear mate, what so? Just coming back to what we were talking about earlier then, one of the other issues I think.
Daren
That has been a big thing in the last 15 months and we mentioned it at the top of the show was kind of the the overload of tools and finding the right balance, not just the staff that students as well in terms of their ability, their cognitive load, their ability to be able to adapt to lots of different platforms of lots of different software is being used but also as well.
Daren
There were a large number of companies that were were offering free deals last year. As a bonus, it to help out with the COVID situation, which was absolutely fantastic. It 100% made a huge difference to a lot of people in terms of making things success.
Daren
Bull.
Daren
100% as well then may well have been issues with privacy around some of those tools that maybe people didn't realise they should be asking the questions about until later on and I'm sure there's a lot of work going on in schools at the moment around. What are the best tools to use? What the safest tools the use? And also you know where is it worth spending the money? But one of the things I struggle with is where these these things have been offered for free for so long.
Speaker 5
Other.
Speaker 3
Daren
And suddenly we get to the end of COVID and to review those things, we've got to be looking at paying out.
Daren
Ethically, there's a bit of a struggle there for me as well, because have we got students used to a particular approach or a particular way of doing things and have we got teachers and parents used a particular way of doing things that then potentially is going to be pulled away from under them because we can no longer afford to?
Daren
Fund those particular tools and that's obviously you know a very natural and very important budget considerations to bear in mind, and we all know that budgets are incredibly tight, and that's that's a difficult thing to deal with.
Daren
Very nice, cool or trust, whatever it might.
Daren
Be, but I just can't and I wonder if anyone?
Daren
Who's he's listening? It has had any.
Daren
Timer for one of better words. An argument with themselves over whether they should or whether they shouldn't. Renewal particular tool because it's now paid for it. So Sammy saying there per deck.
Daren
Yeah, absolutely. Because of GDP are absolutely and paid for.
Daren
Ohh baby, don't be afraid to write one sentence at a time. Sammy rather than just random words and then we talk about afterwards.
Daren
Okay, or just keep going?
Daren
With single words, that's entirely up to you.
Daren
So your parents are good one.
Daren
And then they were screencastify there was loom. There was wee video. There was loads and loads of different offers that were out there were absolutely fantastic that suddenly are now needed to be paid for knee retired as well.
Daren
Although I absolutely love pier near Pod and it is worth bearing in mind with a lot of these tools.
Daren
If you take the time and there's Michelle mentioned earlier, if you take the time to do the certified badges, the accreditations.
Daren
All those fun things quite often.
Daren
Use an individual teacher can get a free version of what would normally be the paid features.
Daren
And if you're anything like me, what you put my intent to do is buy it for yourself and then gift that onto the next person, which is what I've done with near party.
Daren
So I paid for my own. I then got the voucher to to have a free. Once I pass that on to a colleague who then got he's accreditation and pass that on to a colleague and it's created a little bit of a snowball effect or a train or whatever you wanna call it.
Daren
But from that perspective of what we keep.
Daren
What do we get rid of? What do we invest in? What don't we? Obviously all schools around different budgetry.
Daren
Challenges.
Daren
I'm interested to know what kind of conversations are going on and and obviously Michelle. You might well be involved in these kind of conversations about what do we invest in? What do we invest in long term?
Daren
And why and what do we let go? It was great at the time.
Daren
But now maybe not so much. So be interested in seeing what people have got to say. Michelle yourself and also some of the same investing devices.
Daren
Absolutely and actually was going to be my choice. My my chicken Tuesday was gonna be around devices today actually, and whether you should buy or lease.
Daren
So I wonder what people think on that front as well, because I do think there's a real issue instals with forward planning and putting money away for a rainy day because they're just colourful to do it.
Daren
So you can maybe have a big amount to payout on one particular time and go and buy a whole load of new kit, but at some point that holdover Newquay is going to be a whole load of old kit and need replacing. And if you can't replace it, you end up taking a huge step backwards potentially.
Daren
Yeah, it's a Dave sign in the chatty prefer to get rid of Microsoft licences. Absolutely. Yeah, open source platform that that you use absolutely from from the shell their spending on. Never wear. Yeah, absolutely again. Never wear brilliant. Or if you if you're not aware of it, no, for virtually less than £15 you can turn an existing PC or laptop into a Chromebook and give it probably a good few more years of life that it wouldn't have got otherwise.
Daren
And it's literally takes minutes to do so. So well worth exploring if you haven't tried that.
Daren
So it's time now while we're thinking about those kind of questions, it's time for our weekly wonders.
Speaker 3
Daren
Darren's
Speaker 5
His weekly wonders.
Daren
Brought to you from wardrobe office.
Speaker 5
God bless.
Speaker 5
And.
Speaker 3
Daren
So there we go. Wonder Opolis it's time for the weekly wonders and this time it's a question for you to see whether anybody can get the answer and drop us a message. If you think you do so, it's a question. What educational staple the Jellywolf invents in 1975.
Daren
Five which was just prior to the arrival of Mr. Darren White into the world. So it was a it was a dark time in the world. But then in 1976 everything cheered up a little bit when this large ginger person arrived. So what was it? Do you think that Jeremy Wolfe invented in 1975?
Daren
Sam is going with whiteboard.
Daren
Actually, white boots have been around since 1960.
Speaker 3
Daren
David was born in 75. It wasn't you Dave. Jerry Wolf didn't invent you, wasn't chalk or cruel or Inc. Many of those were available by then. Don't make it. You don't remember it. Sammy the stapler or what? Because I said staple, I have to see where you going there Dave. But this isn't a cryptic night.
Daren
OK so Jerry Wolf, believe it or not.
Daren
Invented the whiteboard marker, the dry wipe marker.
Daren
So whiteboards have been around since the 60s, but the dry white marker didn't arrive until 1975. Gerry Wolff invented it and it was then painted by pilots, and there's been around ever since. Obviously some of us like the smell of them. Some of them work, some of them don't you shake him around and get a bit of central legal force going. You can get a little bit of extra life out.
Daren
But yeah, for best part of 15 years people have whiteboards. Are using pens on that they couldn't wipe off, so they literally had to scrub them clean afterwards.
Daren
It wasn't until 1975 when Gerry Wolff said what about if we remove designing from the ink and that would stop it from bonding.
Daren
Sammy says she's always got one in a hairball on top of her head. What a whiteboard.
Daren
Ohh the marker got you okay white bull pen in on the top of your head.
Daren
Right?
Daren
I mean, whatever floats your boat are friendly.
Daren
Play all great for removing permanent marker from whiteboards. Because of the lack of xylene, you see it's a learning situation.
Daren
Always were lifelong learners here on Joy FM. And we're not just about everyone in education, but we're also about learning at the same time.
Daren
Under rules, when you told you old Hazza, woops, I presume a woops is like making a mistake as opposed to what I would need to be a whoopsie. In which case I wouldn't use a dry white.
Daren
Soccer.
Daren
But everyday is a school day. Today is absolutely right.
Daren
Yes yes 2 two years old has it so it is a whoops as in an error as opposed to a bad decision. Poor decision, should we say?
Daren
What wine, if it's? What do you really do? They say this is a learning curve as well. If it is a whoopsie white wine will clean it off. So there you go.
Daren
No.
Daren
If you didn't know differently why or is it you just drink the white wine and you no longer worry about the fact that there's a whoopsie on the carpet?
Daren
Yeah, absolutely. I think don't read that one days right. Absolutely hash tag, mum light from Sammy, so we're just coming up to the hour.
Daren
It's been great talking to you, Michelle. Thank you so much for joining us this evening. It's been a really interesting conversation and certainly a lot to think about. I think the most important thing to come out and see this.
Daren
Is you know you've got data protection advisers. You've got a data protection officer. You've gotta GPR champion.
Speaker 3
Daren
Or somebody whose role it is to kind of oversee that within your school, make sure you speak to them.
Speaker 3
Daren
Don't be afraid to die and ask the questions in advance. Get that privacy in there by design. If you're going to be setting up a new process, think about privacy from the outset.
Daren
Much easier than trying to bring all of that information back together in a Safeway afterwards. Okay, so thanks everyone for joining us. More annoyed. I know on the Fe show we've got a special host.
Daren
Um, who Sammy, I'm sure will pop in.
Daren
The message board a little bit of information about tomorrow night. If you would like to very welcome to Sammy, but so tomorrow night's Fe show and then obviously next Monday.
Daren
Daren
I really cannot wait to get students.
Daren
Interviewing inanimate objects, I think it's going to be a really fun piece of work to do. And like we said, somebody walks into the office and says, could we do this? Try saying, yeah, well let's try it.
Daren
But privacy by design first, a days in charge next week. So the gremlin has been sent for extra training.
Daren
There we go, so thanks for joining me. Everyone in education. It's been great fun again tonight and look forward to seeing you again next time round on the school show on Joy FM for everyone.
Speaker 3
Daren
In education.
Speaker 5
You are listening.
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Speaker 5
You are missing joy FM.
Speaker 5
You are missing.
Speaker 5
Joy at end, bringing together that everyone be notifications.
Speaker 5
If you want one.
Speaker 5
Speaker 5
Join with guests.
Speaker 5
Speaker 5
No idea why, can't get every chooses assembly area.
Speaker 5
Yeah, let's go.
Speaker 5
Let's go.
Speaker 5
Speaker 5
For the school job.
Speaker 3
Speaker 3
Speaker 3