AMERICAN PRODIGIES
EPSIODE 9
TRANSCRIPT
AMIRA: Before we start, a content note. This episode contains accounts of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse, and racism. You’ll also hear some swearing... Hey y’all, and welcome to the last episode of season three of American Prodigies. You made it! We made it! We’re here! I talked to a lot of people this season – especially gymnasts. You heard stories from Olympians Jordan Chiles and Betty Okino, trailblazers like Angie Denkins and Joyce Wilborn, collegiate superstars Nia Dennis, Sophina DeJesus, and Hallie Mossett – and young athletes hoping to be the next generation of sensational Black gymnasts. We reported on the joyful and the uncomfortable and the fucking maddening – from victories at national championships to hiding food at the Olympics to white coaches cutting Black girls’ hair. On today’s episode, I talk with our story editor, Jessica Luther. We recap where we’ve been and talk about the gymnasts and topics we wished we could have covered. And then we try to answer the question that’s come up again and again throughout this series: Is the sport of gymnastics compatible with just work for Black women? How could it be?
JESSICA LUTHER: Let's start by looking back on what we were able to cover this season.
AMIRA: We covered a fucking lot.
JESSICA LUTHER: Yeah, so you talked to so many people. When you think back on it, Amira, what was one of your highlights in creating this season?
AMIRA: I mean, honestly, just interviewing people and forming a bond and connection and in the conversation that we had. You know, of course, Betty Okino was such a delight to talk to because we just had a very kind of similar energy and we were talking about a lot of different stuff.
AMIRA: What was your favorite meal your grandmother made you?
BETTY OKINO: Oh... So, I don't know if you ever had like Romanian food? Probably not.
AMIRA: I had it once.
BETTY OKINO: You did? What did you have?
AMIRA: I have no idea. It had potatoes in it. [laughs]
BETTY OKINO: [laughs] That's like, that's like everything!
AMIRA: Which might be like every Romanian dish?
BETTY OKINO: It is!
AMIRA: Not all of it was funny, a lot of it was really heavy, in fact. But there was just this kind of... camaraderie that it felt like in the conversation, and that really extends to so many people I talked to. There was a moment in which one of the kind of viral sensations we were talking to was giving an answer and stopped and said, "That's a very media trained answer. Do you want the real? "And I said, "Yes! That's what we're doing here!"
JESSICA LUTHER: Always. [laughs]
AMIRA: You know? But honestly, every time somebody said, "I've never said this story before," made me feel like we really created a show and a space in which stories could be told that weren't easy but were true and deserved to be listened to and recognized. And I think that, at the end of the day, is all I could have asked for. And so all of my highlights are extension of that fact. Whether it's Angie Denkins - me trying to be diplomatic and talk around this kind of messy book that Jennifer Sey wrote. And I'm trying to be super diplomatic about it and I'm talking about generosity, and she interrupts me and she goes:
ANGIE DENKINS: You're talking about Jennifer Sey?
AMIRA: Girl...
ANGIE DENKINS: You know she worked out with me, honey, so I grew up with her.
AMIRA: Mm-hmm.
ANGIE DENKINS: And, child, guess what that troll didn’t bother me. Not one bit. Not one bit.
AMIRA: It was just perfect. It was just like, "Oh, we're going there. Yes."
JESSICA LUTHER: Yeah. Well, I think this is one of your great skills is your ability to bring this out in people as you're talking to them. And I think there were so many great moments when I think back on, like all the audio that we have listened to. And I will never not laugh at you and Sophina and hip-hop moves:
Commentator 1 (Archival): And then she went into her hip hop moves.
Commentator 2 (Archival): And salutes the crowd!
AMIRA: Okay. [laughs] I can't take it! [laughs] "And then she went into her hip hop moves!"
SOPHINA DEJESUS: It's so funny how people like, say those things and it's like... huh.
JESSICA LUTHER: And I think about... yeah, with Betty, that great moment where she's searching for a simple word:
BETTY OKINO: I the opposite of what that world provided, like I wanted a voice, I wanted to speak out, I wanted to like... be emotional and for it to be okay. I wanted... um... I just wanted- I wanted more. And it was very restricting. I wanted the opposite of restricting.
AMIRA: Yeah. You wanted freedom.
BETTY OKINO: I wanted freedom.
JESSIC LUTHER: It's the way she repeats the word freedom back to you - there's so much emotion in it. It's just a beautiful moment. And you had so many of those with all these people that you've talked to throughout the season. And I think I'm really going to carry that forward with me. I would be remiss not to mention the production team going to the G.O.A.T. Tour as a highlight. [laughs]
AMIRA: Absolutely. I mean, I think that it was so great to get together after, you know, half a year of building this thing and to be able to go down to Houston to see each other and take in the G.O.A.T. Tour and talk to the little girls…
KELLY HARDCASTLE JONES (Producer): What do you think the show is going to be like?
YOUNG GYMNAST 1: Gold... Amazing!
YOUNG GYMNAST 2: So amazing!
YOUNG GYMNAST 3: I think it’s going to be a pretty spectacular night.
YOUNG GYMNAST 4: It’s gonna be pretty awesome. Because these are some of the people who have been on the Olympic Team for a couple years. So- And we’ve seen them level up while we’ve been leveling up in our gymnastics too so that’d be pretty cool.
AMIRA: Every piece of that trip, I think, was really important, not just for the tape we picked up and not just for that kind of experience of witnessing the tour and all the emotions it brought off in all of us for different ways... But also, just the bonding that happened between the four core people on our production team - that's Jessica Bodiford, Kelly Hardcastle Jones, me and you Jess. And I think that being able to be in that moment together was exactly the fortification we needed to carry some of these stories in the way we did. And to carry the... to have the empathy and the tenderness and the precision that we needed to cut this tape. And to be in alignment about what we wanted from this show together. If you're listening to this show, you wouldn't necessarily know that that's a highlight. But it absolutely produced everything that you're hearing. And I'm just eternally grateful for the team that we had.
JESSICA LUTHER: Yeah, you're right. It's solidified so much for us as we were really thinking through what we wanted this season to say. And when you were talking about the energy at the G.O.A.T. Tour... that's so funny to me cause when I think- I of course think about the routines and me crying about all of them... But I really- the sound that I remember are all the little girls screaming. And they're screaming with joy and enthusiasm, and they're just so happy to be there. And when I think on the G.O.A.T. Tour and like that Simone made that for them. And that I can feel that when I think about them screaming. And she's going to cut this - because we know her too well - but it was fun to see Kelly Hardcastle Jones, our former gymnast, like lose her mind at the G.O.A.T. Tour.
AMIRA: [laughs] Absolutely.
LAURIE HERNANDEZ: You can buy this jacket at the merch stand if you want!
KELLY HARDCASTLE JONES: Oh, I will.
JESSICA LUTHER: So... so much of what was covered in this season were athletes and events that you, Amira, knew a lot about and thought a lot about in your career up to this point. I really feel like this season dovetails perfectly with so much of the amazing work that you are doing... will be doing. Was there anything that came up during an interview or during research that you didn't see coming? That, like, genuinely surprised you?
AMIRA: I don't know if surprise is the right word? I'm blown away constantly by how illogical racism is, right? And how illogical all the ways people can harm people are.
MARIA DEJESUS: And I just told the coach, "If I ever find out someone put their hands on my child again, is going to be a lot of problem."
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Wait wasn’t the statement, “I mean, she's Black, so she should be able to fight.” Or something like that? Or “protect herself?”
MARIA DEJESUS: Yes. Well, I told you that because you wouldn't understand between the lines. He looked at me and he's got this really mean look. And he said, “She don't look like she can't fight.” Like basically, you don't need any protection because you're Black. And so, right there told me that you were not going to be safe at that gym.
AMIRA: That's wild. Or some of the microaggressions that people relayed about things said to them. Their [inaudible] logics that people used, or...
JESSICA LUTHER: Jasmine getting her hair touched as a judge at meets?!
AMIRA: Well, see like those things don't surprise me because people be touching Black women's hair all the time-
JESSICA LUTHER: I know but a judge at a meet?
AMIRA: I think it was more so the little things like... not knowing that Betty could understand Romanian.
JESSICA LUTHER: Yeah.
AMIRA: Which is so clear and so dumb.
AMIRA: My question has always been: why was it assumed that you didn’t? If you're mom-
BETTY OKINO: Why do you think?
AMIRA: I know why! But I want it on tape. [laughs]
BETTY OKINO: Exactly. Exactly. This is why it was assumed: because I do not look like I would speak Romanian. Just like Kobe does not look like he could speak German, Italian, French.
AMIRA: I also think that just hearing the way that former gymnast recite their injuries.
JESSICA LUTHER: Oh, that it's like, "Oh, here are all of my broken bones."
AMIRA: Yeah.
JESSICA LUTHER: As if it's just like a thing that most people...
AMIRA: Yeah. Because like, I'm somebody who's had... I broke a fair share of bones and I've had a fair amount of surgeries. Like, you know how you go to the doctor and they give you a form for former surgeries? I never have enough lines, right? So I feel like I'm fairly cavalier about that as well. Where I'm just like, "Yeah, I had this surgery. And then I had appendectomy. Then, I had a bilateral tracheotomy... da da da da." But I think that it was surprising to me how often I heard this kind of simple regurgitation of bodily pain in a way that was like this just... this sport is different, right?
DR. COURTNEY JOHNSON: Well, I had like a disc herniation around ten.
SOHINA DEJESUS: I hurt myself at the Karolyi camp at one of the competitions.
NIA DENNIS: I actually tore my Achilles the year of the Olympics. Just three months before.
ELIZABETH PRICE: And I knew the second that I did my beam dismount, I was like, “Something's wrong. Something's wrong!”
SOPHINA DEJESUS: The gymnastics doctor looked at my X-ray and was like, “Oh, you're fine. Just take it easy.”
ELIZABETH PRICE: The second surgery’s over it’s like, “Okay what can we do to try to stay in shape and make it the easiest recovery process possible?” Not just the easiest but the fastest. Trying to get back out there, you know?
AMIRA: And I think the last thing that took me aback was how many people were unable to speak. Or hesitant to speak or spoke and said, "I'm never going to talk about this again." Because of the trauma they're carrying from the sport. And I'm talking about both people we interviewed, but I'm also talking about people who have just messaged me and gotten emotional about this. I was on Amanda Seales' podcast and in real time I was like sharing a story from the show... and she and she got choked up because she started to remember something she had never remembered in that way. And I think that was something that made me pause... Cause I deal with a lot of people recalling a lot about various sports, but I've never dealt with a sport that seems to so intensely have left so many scars - visible and not. And that even people who are listening and receiving this podcast are needing to process their own relationship to a sport they gave years to. And watching that happen over and over and over again with people we've talked to and people who just comment because they've listened to it... I thought I knew what toxic sporting spaces look like and how they impacted people, but I think that this gave me a greater depth of understanding of what it looks like to emerge from these spaces and the things you carry with you as you move on.
JESSICA LUTHER: So, we made the third season of a show called "American Prodigy." We changed that to "Prodigies" as we were figuring out what we wanted this season to look like, the scope of it - we wanted to include a bunch of gymnasts. When we look at what we were not able to include this season, though, I want to start there. With the gymnasts. Are there gymnasts that we didn't get to do a deep dove on that you wish that we had had more space and time for?
AMIRA: For sure. There's so many. I'll earmark two, really: Luci Collins - whose sister actually this morning at the time of recording this, just sent a message and said, "Thank you so much cause I am better able to understand why my sister doesn't want to talk about this and her experience so publicly." Tasha Schweikert, of course, is the other gymnast that I am just drawn to.
JESSICA LUTHER: She made the... 2000 Olympic team.
AMIRA: 2000. Yeah. And just the way in which she was talked about from her coach to her own mom, calling her "the Dennis Rodman of the sport." They talked about her as just kind of like rebel and this like bad girl of gymnastics. Like Mykayla Skinner could never. And I just feel like there was a lot to unpack there about Tasha and about her racialization in the sport, and this idea about like what made her like the bad girl of gymnastics was that she was vocal. But like, not even ridiculously vocal, just like a little bit vocal, right? But she also has this kind of like insider-outsider vibe to her. And then became like one of the faces that USAG was like really using and especially used when abuse allegations started coming forward to shield their own institution. They actually wrote a quote from her about she felt happy in gymnastics and circulated it everywhere with her image - which I find unconscionable. And then Tasha, along with her younger sister, Jordan, came together very publicly to talk about being also victims of Larry Nassar. And the fact that Tasha then went on, you know, with her law degree, to join the legal team to deliver the settlement to survivors is... beyond poetic.
JESSICA LUTHER: I know there are other topics that we wish we could have covered. We talked about this a lot during this season. Will you walk me through some of those?
AMIRA: Yeah. And I think this is actually a really great transition because one of the other gymnasts I would have loved to talk about is Jair Lynch who was a Black male gymnast on the '96 team in Atlanta. In the Black newspapers at the time, they were like "Dominique! Jair! We're taking over gymnastics!" And I love that. And I really wanted to talk to him about that moment in '96, but also being positioned with Dominique in this way. And what it meant to be a Black boy in gymnastics. And of course, as we collected these stories, it became very clear to us that in order to do justice to this work, we really need to center on Black girls and Black women because we already had so much tape we were leaving on the cutting room floor on that topic alone. But there was a huge piece here about sexuality, about gender presentation, about the experience of Black boys in this sport - how that runs into and brushes up against our idea of masculinity. And I hope to be able to spend some time in the future thinking about what this sport meant for Black boys and Black men and what it continues to mean. That also, you know, has me think a lot about sexuality. We talk about, in this podcast, the way that we've seen gymnastics shift - and how they think about difference and how they think about diversity - and that shift is in tension and is always being pushed back against. But one of the things that we also see, of course, is like Pride Nights and meets happening now. There's still a kind of... way that a lot of gymnasts aren't comfortable coming out.
JESSICA LUTHER: Well, this goes to your point about gender presentation within the sport. It's still so incredibly heavily gendered in ways that I could see being... making it difficult to want to publicly disclose.
AMIRA: Exactly. Exactly. And shout out to the Half In, Half Out pod, which has been doing great work on queerness and gymnastics. I think that those conversations are really important. Of course, I really want to layer them with conversations about race. Like, I think that we do a disservice when we have these kind of conversations siloed. So the only gymnast on the women's side who was actually out during these past Olympic Games in Tokyo was Caitlin Roosekrantz, who's a Black woman from South Africa. And thinking about what it means to be competing as a Black or colored woman from South Africa and be out, and openly out, and say, "Hey, I'm queer," in this sport, to me, is the layers of all of those differences that the sport has tried to eradicate. I mean, it reminds me of Betty saying, "It's not just that I was tall, but I was tall and Brown." And I think about how sexuality, you know, works within that. When we're talking about presentation, when we're talking about leotards, when we're talking about how you wear your hair, right?
JESSICA LUTHER: Infantilized bodies.
AMIRA: Infantilized bodies. All of these things. I think that like playing up femininity we've seen happen in conjunction with being- trying to age yourself up in a sport that many people feel underdeveloped in - or are underdeveloped because of training - and what that means in terms of like how esthetically you display your identity. And then I also, of course, want to dive into Pride Meets and Pride nights the same way that we know that Black Lives Matter meets were happening while UCLA was wearing shirts with quotes from Martin Luther King and dealing with racism in their own program. And I have to believe that as much as we're seeing pride meets occurring, that there are queer gymnasts across this country in these same programs hosting meets with stories to tell. And I would love to continue to see those stories come to the forum. And I think they're absolutely part of the conversation.
JESSICA LUTHER: Yeah. Absolutely. I also think someone out there should do a podcast about like non-Black gymnasts of color. I mean, we just had Suni win the all-around. We can talk a lot about like what their experiences are also like within the sport and within their own communities.
AMIRA: Absolutely.
JESSICA LUTHER: I mean, you brought up Caitlyn from South Africa. I do think one of the other interesting aspects is this is "American" prodigies. So, we were absolutely boxed in by that first word, which was "American," but I do think the international aspect of the sport and the way that these things play out in other countries - which of course have different histories and different, you know, idiosyncrasies within their cultures - it would have to be contextualized. But I do... It would be interesting to hear a larger discussion of what this is like for Black girls and girls of color in the sport outside of the US.
AMIRA: No, absolutely. I mean, you know me, like, I constantly wanted to have that discussion. [laughs] You know, from seeing Melanie dos Santos on the go to her with Simone - she's from France - she's actually on the French team, but she's from Martinique, which is a colonial history which is-
JESSICA LUTHER: Like just that sentence alone is it's fascinating. Yeah.
AMIRA: You know? So, of course, Rebecca Andrade won Brazil’s first gold medal on vault this summer in Tokyo and talked about how it's important, you know, that she was a Black girl who did it. But the other people who reflected on that was like Daiane dos Sontos, who was, you know, this prodigy of her own right from Brazil and competed in gymnastics, went on the world stage in 2003 and had this kind of big Olympic light on her and was interviewed quite often about her like "fun floor music" or "the burden of representing Brazil" and what it meant to have this Black girl represent Brazil. And she talked about the weight that it put on her shoulders. And after Rebecca won, she gave a very emotional interview about how meaningful it was to see that that first medal comes at the hands of a Black person from Brazil. You know there’s just an enormous possibility about these global interactions and especially when I think of Melanie on tour, on the Gold Over America Tour, with these other Black girls from the US and the way that they’re able to talk about their experiences. Because when you have like racist gymnasts saying, "Oh, all I need to do is paint my skin black to get a medal." That- those weren't American gymnasts saying that. And the people who heard that were global gymnasts as well. It was signaling this idea about Blackness that trans versus boundaries. Because anti-Blackness is global and the sport of gymnastics globally has been very white. And so I think that you find a lot of parallels internationally. And I think it's a great opportunity to watch it the way that anti-Blackness is working globally and the way that connections are built across cultures where you see Black people coming together across geographic boundaries and really rooted together by this shared history, whether it's about colonization or Jim Crow or these legacies that are coming out of something that we see happening across the globe, for sure.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: One thing that my experience in gymnastics has taught me is to just really grasp onto the things that make you feel good and hold onto the things that you’re passionate about, so that you can kinda grit your teeth and get through the rest of the shit that you have to deal with.
JESSICA LUTHER: I think the best way to wrap up this season is honestly to talk about our overall feelings about gymnastics at this point. You've talked to so many people who find both a lot of joy in the sport, a lot to love here, but also. you've heard so many stories about racism, about harassment, abuse, eating disorders, discrimination. Like, on and on. I know you've asked other people on this show, but I'm going to put it to you: If your daughter wanted to do gymnastics, would you be able to put her in at this point? I think this gets a lot to what Jessica Bodiford, our producer, she talks about in episode seven, the like feeling that all of these ills are I think the inevitability of all of this.
JESSICA BODIFORD: Because it does feel inevitable to me. Like, I want to throw all of it away. USAG... all of it. That's where I am. It's been proven through these interviews. And it's like the body thing, the eating disorders, the people making fun of their complexion, their curves, their hair... over and over and over again. Especially when you think about like... I'm talking about like these little girls who are like not Simone Biles, not Gabby Douglas, not Betty Okino. But those women went through it and they're the best! That's what bothers me. It's like, if the best - if the GOAT went through it - I mean... I just don't... So, yes, helplessness for sure... for the average girls who just want to fly.
JESSICA LUTHER: And the final thing that this ties into is probably the thing that we have discussed maybe more- Like the thing that we all feel, as a production team here, really encapsulates this season - the question of this season of American prodigies. And it came from episode five. It was your friend, the brilliant Dr. Sam Sheppard. This is the episode about Gabby Douglas and in it, Sam said:
DR. SAM SHEPPARD: Do we want a bunch of Black girls running into the sport? Is that what we want? Perhaps the sport is not compatible with doing just work for Black women. How could it be?
JESSICA LUTHER: So, Amira, do we want that? Do we want Black girls running in it? Would you put your daughter in gymnastics? Does all of the ills in it feel inevitable to you at this point in the process?
AMIRA: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, gymnastics as a sport is not my favorite. There's too many broken bodies that it’s been built upon... for me. It feels very frustrating to watch what people have endured. And that's just about the sport, not just about Black girls in it. Now, the question of would I let Samari do gymnastics... Samari did gymnastics and dealt with all this bullshit the same way she dealt with it in ballet. And she left both of those. So, she left the studio, she left ballet when she was old enough to get tired of being told that she needs to put her hair up when it was in braids or having parents comment about her body in a leotard, et cetera. She went back to dance, though, cause that's what she loved. And it's hard for me because I don't think there's many places that are compatible with Black girlhood, or Black womanhood at that. I don't think institutions have the capacity to love us. I don't think they were built to. So... I don't feel any differently about gymnastics than I do ballet than I do about academia than I do about sports media. But the capacity of Black girls and women to choose to occupy those spaces, I return to all of the Black girls and women on this show who talk about feeling free in the air, and I would never begrudge them of that. I think we all carve out spaces of freedom. Like Betty said, like, that's what we're searching for. And it is clear to me that there is something that for many people keeps pulling them back to this sport. Whether they're dancing on their floor exercise or they're flipping through the air and feeling weightless, where none of the ills of the world can touch them.
YOUNG GYMNAST 5: I feel like it’s so fun to fly and to also get to dance.
YOUNG GYMNAST 6: Oh, I don’t know. I just kind of love this sport. I like tumbling I like being in the air. I just... I dunno... I just love it.
YOUNG GYMNAST 7: Like how you do those like flips and do back flips and stuff.
YOUNG GYMNAST 8: You get to do something you love. And it just matters because you just love it.
AMIRA: The same way that we carve out spaces for ourselves to feel the most authentic and the most free in doing what we feel called to do. And for every little Black girl who wants to go into gymnastics because that is what they feel called to do, then I hope we can build a space where their souls are protected, their bodies, their minds are protected, while they're seeking out that freedom while they flip. And I want that for everywhere and for every institution. And I refuse to abandon gymnastics. For them. That's where I land on it. That it doesn't really matter what the world thinks. A Black girl can and should and will do - we will always do - what we're called to do. And for so many people has been to shine in this sport. And like Angie said, that's what's inevitable. We are inevitable. And that's what I believe in.
CREDITS
AMIRA: This season of American Prodigies was reported and hosted by me, Amira Rose Davis. Story editing and production by Jessica Luther.
If you want to hear more of my interviews with guests from this season, subscribe to Blue Wire's Apple Podcast Subscription Channel. Along with ad-free episodes, you can listen to my full interviews with: rhythmic gymnast Wendy Hilliard, physical therapist Dr. Courtney Johnson, judge Jasmine Swyningan, former elite and collegiate gymnast Elizabeth Price, choreographer and coach Hallie Mossett, Nia Dennis’ mom Deetra, and Brown Girls Do Gymnastics founder Derrin Moore.
Search "Blue Wire" in Apple Podcasts for access to all the extended interviews. It's free for the first seven days. Subscribe today.
Jessica Bodiford and Kelly Hardcastle Jones are our senior producers. Sound design, mix, and mastering by Camille Stennis. Isabelle Jocelyn, Kayla Stokes and Jordan Ligons provided production assistance. Fact-checking was done by Mary Mathis and Jessica Luther. Production coordination by Devin Shepherd. We had research help from Shwetha Surendran, Mariam Khan, and Mary Mathis. American Prodigies is executive produced by Peter Moses and Jon Yales.
POST CREDITS JOY
JESSICA LUTHER: Turning off the car. Yeah?
JESSICA BODIFORD: So um, what are your first impressions of this place, Amira?
AMIRA: Oh wait. I’m not ready for that. Y’all do that. Like, I need a break from talking.
JESSICA BODIFORD: First impressions, Jessica?
JESSICA LUTHER: It’s huge. And Simone is everywhere. Of course she’s on the front. Above the World Champions Center sign, there's a big picture and she’s leaping. So they have the light posts with the banners that hang off of them and she’s on every one in her sort of – you know when she lands and she does the ‘V’? The arms out?
KELLY HARDCASTLE JONES: [laughs]
JESSICA LUTHER: I dunno.
JESSICA BODIFORD: It looks like a ‘V’, okay?
KELLY HARDCASTLE JONES: I know, it does!
JESSICA BODIFORD: I know exactly what she was talking about when she said ‘V’.
JESSICA LUTHER: It looks like a 'V'! With the arms!
KELLY HARDCASTLE JONES: Sorry.
JESSICA LUTHER: Girl.
KELLY HARDCASTLE JONES: Okay.
JESSICA LUTHER: There are definitely cars here. And there's a car in the owner’s spot. There is a spot: "Reserved Parking for Biles" that is empty right now ‘cause we imagine she’s not around at this point. But it’s just kind of in a Houston suburb, like where you can see- to the right you can see just like a group of houses - like a planned community kind of. And to the left is an Auto Zone. And there’s just like a split road behind us like four lanes, split. Just right off the highway. I can see a Taco Bell and a Shell from here. Just kind of tucked in here like any neighborhood gym except it’s the GOAT’s gym.
AMIRA: That was so good. I’m like, “We’re in a parking lot and a building.”