AMERICAN PRODIGIES
EPSIODE 8
TRANSCRIPT
AMIRA: Before we start, a quick content note. This episode contains accounts of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse and racism. You’ll also hear some swearing.
AMIRA: Previously on American Prodigies:
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: This is not just a white person sport, but it is owned and administered by white people. And that's a huge problem.
JOYCE WILBORN: Being a Black gymnast in a white gymnasts’ world was one of the hardest and toughest things that I've ever had to accomplish.
MISS VAL: Had I been more clued into the differences in culture and how our different athletes were brought up, I could have been much more helpful.
NIA DENNIS: And then of course, you know the whole style was majorette dancing or that was where I drew inspiration from. I have a lot of family in New Orleans. We used to go every single year. So, Battle of the Bands, I was in there.
ANGIE DENKINS: It's just a wonderful feeling for me to see more sisters and young ladies of different cultures that are up there and are really doing the doggone thing.
Airport Announcement: Thank you for waiting, ladies and gentlemen. We invited first class, now we're inviting executive class...
AMIRA: In the summer of 2021, the American Prodigies team got tickets to the biggest gymnastics event of the year.
Commentator 1: [speaks in Japanese]
Commentator 2: For followers of gymnastics and anyone who enjoys sport, a much-anticipated moment has arrived… The first medal event...
AMIRA: You thought we were going to Tokyo? Ha ha! Nope! COVID was not going to let that happen. So instead, we did the next best thing… Welcome to Grambling State University, in Lincoln Parish, Louisiana! Home of the Tigers. Just as the Olympics were kicking off in Tokyo in July 2021, a hundred Black and Brown girls from all over the country gathered at Grambling. They were there for the fifth annual Brown Girls Do Gymnastics Conference and Invitational. And they got a little love from the GOAT herself, Simone Biles:
Simone Biles (Archival): I’m so excited to hear that you beautiful, smart and talented young Black and Brown girls are interested in gymnastics. I started at a young age, too - when I was six years old. And the one thing I remember during practice was how much fun I had on the floor. Enjoy the next few days, make new friends, and always remember to have fun.
AMIRA: And families went to the conference to learn about gymnastics things: like how scores work, what implicit bias is, how to keep their children safe, happy, and healthy.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: I am doing a parent Q and A session, so helping the parents understand maybe the score is that way because my kid fell five times and now I understand that. Or maybe my score is that way because there's bias going on. And understanding the difference and then helping work with the coaches to navigate that. I think that's really important.
AMIRA: At Grambling, we met the future of gymnastics and asked them who they looked up to:
YOUNG GYMNAST SKYLER: Once I saw Gabby Douglas, I was like, OK, she's pretty good...
YOUNG GYMNAST CARTER: Gabby Douglas.
YOUNG GYMNAST 3: Nia Dennis…
YOUNG GYMNAST CARTER: Wait no, Jordan Chiles.
YOUNG GYMNAST BROOKLYN: Simone Biles works hard...
YOUNG GYMNAST KYLA: She’s a really good gymnast and she is Black like me.
YOUNG GYMNAST BROOKLYN: She's my idol.
YOUNG GYMNAST CARTER: I remember when she did the salute, then I was like, "Oh yeah now I wanna do gymnastics." Yep. No cap! Nothing. I wanna be a gymnast.
AMIRA: But Brown Girls Do Gymnastics, or "Brown Girls" for short, they want kids like Skyler, Carter, Brooklyn to get inspired by their peers. So, their conference closed with an invitational meet: all Black and Brown kids on the competition floor, split into two teams, and an exhibition by current and former collegiate gymnasts.
DR. COURTNEY JOHNSON: Like, we can all see - like Gabby Douglas and Simone Biles, Lauren Hernandez, Jordan Chiles - like we see them on TV and it's great to look up to them, too. And they have, you know, changed the sport for us. But I think having people like right actually near you, you know, like in your circle, you know? So, I think Brown Girls Gymnastics does a great job of that, like bringing girls together so they know, like you may not see it like in this gym, but you have a girl that's your same age or same level, you know, doing the same things you're doing.
AMIRA: And Brown Girls made sure that the people in charge looked like the girls and their families. The judges were Black, the meet director was Black, the coaches were Black, the trainers were Black.
AMIRA: One of the things that you all do that's so impressive is also providing a space for Black coaches and judges and all of the other people who make up a gym space.
DERRIN MOORE: We don't want to just bring in the Black and Brown coaches and judges who are already coaching and judging. We want more Black and Brown coaches and judges.
AMIRA: I’m Amira Rose Davis. In this episode, I talk to Derrin Moore, the founder of Brown Girls.
DERRIN MOORE: Before Brown Girls Do Gymnastics came about, I wanted some type of... foundation or something that was geared towards like advancing gymnastics for Black and Brown kids, you know? And you know the whole representation matters thing like it's cliche, but it's real.
AMIRA: Derrin and her team of judges, coaches, administrators, and parents have boots on the ground, making sure that future prodigies can fly in the sport and have a safe place to land.
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AMIRA: Why would a Brown girl want to do gymnastics? What is it about gymnastics? Your own experience or ones that you've heard that draws people to the sport.
DERRIN MOORE: The first thing that came to my mind is, "Why wouldn't they?" But that's because I love gymnastics. [laughs]
AMIRA: Derrin Moore’s love for gymnastics is echoed by young gymnasts who attended the conference and meet at Grambling:
YOUNG GYMNAST 4: I love it because I like to get the energy out. I like to be up doing gymnastics, just ready to flip.
YOUNG GYMNAST 5: You get to do something you love. And it just matters because you just love it.
YOUNG GYMNAST 6: I feel like it's so fun to fly and to also get to dance.
YOUNG GYMNAST SEDARA: Oh, I don't know, I just kind of love this where I like tumbling, I like being in the air. I just I just love it.
AMIRA: And by the Brown Girls board members and mentors we met there.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: I feel like I tumbled out of my mom's womb into the world and I was like, "Here I am!"
APLLONIA BARRIENTOS: I loved competing, being out on the floor. I mean, I felt like it was like my Zen place. It was kind of like I got lost in routines.
DR. COURTNEY JOHNSON: I just like being able to flip around. I don't know why that's so fun for me.
DERRIN MOORE: It’s a weird situation, especially for Black and Brown people, because it's- once you do it, it's like you've been bitten by the bug. Even if you're a little kid and you go upside down and you do a forward roll that the look on the child's face is like, "Oh my gosh! My body just did this thing!" Can you imagine when that child does like a cartwheel or back bend or back handspring? It's your body's doing things that your body wouldn't typically do. It's almost like bein' a superhero. Like, you get to be a superhero, you know?
AMIRA: Brown Girls was born in 2015 with a mission to serve underrepresented and marginalized athletes in gymnastics and the circus arts.
DERRIN MOORE: TaKiya Wallace, who started Brown Girls Do Ballet, reached out to me and my inbox and was like, "You should start the gymnastics one."
AMIRA: Brown Girls supports gymnasts at all levels, including elite gymnasts. However, the organization is not a member of USAG. But USAG knows about Brown Girls.
AMIRA: Does Brown Girls Do Gymnastics currently have any communication at all with USA Gymnastics?
DERRIN MOORE: Yeah, we do. They reached out to us in 2020 when everybody reached out to us [laughs]
AMIRA: Right. Right. [laughs]
AMIRA: In May 2020, George Floyd was murdered by Derek Chauvin, a white police officer. Once again, we had to reckon with the reality of racism and police brutality. After George Floyd’s death, Derrin received an email from USAG. Like so many other companies, the organization fumbled in its efforts to show solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement.
AMIRA: So, in many ways, it's not surprising that they reached out in 2020 because it felt like everybody was like, "Find a Black person!" So, what was it like for you to have put in all this work on this organization and to have said over and over again, you know, "This is important. This is important." To have this moment in time where it's like everybody was like, "Oh! This is important!"
DERRIN MOORE: Yeah. "You exist now!"
AMIRA: Exactly. Exactly. Which is like... it’s super frustrating.
DERRIN MOORE: That's exactly... yeah. Definitely frustrating. So, when I got this email from USA, I was already immediately like, "What?! You want to post because George Floyd died." And that's- you know what I mean? Was killed, because not died. Just those types of injustices, it... it gets under my skin in a way that other things don't, you know? They reached out and basically asked if they could post us on their Instagram.
AMIRA: Oh, so like optically.
DERRIN MOORE: Yeah. And I was like, "What else is going to happen? These are the things that we need. So, you can post, but we also have to have these conversations and figure out something else that we can do to actually move us in the direction that we need to go in instead of just, you know, posting this thing on Instagram." That was just not cool to me at all.
AMIRA: Derrin eventually agreed to let USAG share images of Brown Girls on social media. In turn, USAG hosted panels on diversity and inclusion and gender equality. HBCU Gymnastics Day is a day created by Brown Girls to bring awareness to HBCU fans and alumni that gymnastics is a viable sport in the Black Community. And on HBCU Gymnastics Day 2020, USAG was again allowed to post Brown Girls’ images on social media. And they donated swag like crop tops and cinch bags to the girls at the fifth Annual Brown’s Girls Conference.
DERRIN MOORE: So, they've been... they've been more… hands-on than just what, you know, I originally thought they were going to do.
AMIRA: [laughs] So, USAG is trying… I guess. Since its inception, Brown Girls has grown to include monthly workshops for gymnasts and their families, a training camp for young gymnasts, and of course the annual conference that we attended at Grambling. The conference made an impression on the adults who accompanied the girls.
TIA EBERLINE: So, I was just talking to my daughter Kyla about this. Having something like Brown Girls is huge. That didn't exist when I was an athlete. And it's kind of hard to think about how long ago that was. But I just think of how awesome and amazing that would feel for me, having something to look forward to like this every year.
GEORGIA LOBBAN: And so, I think organizations like Brown Girls do gymnastics is so important to be able to, you know, show our kids there are other people that look like them doing a sport. They don't always see that in their respective clubs. And so, I think it's very important for them to be able to see it in order to believe they can do it as well.
AMIRA: Brown Girls is as much about educating and advocating for parents and guardians as it is for young athletes.
DERRIN MOORE: The parents who we come in contact with now, most of them didn't do gymnastics, didn't know about gymnastics. So, we start with the parents and teaching them about what the culture used to be.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: One thing that my experience in gymnastics has taught me is to just really grasp onto the things that make you feel good. And hold onto the things that you’re passionate about. So that you can kinda grit your teeth and get through the rest of the shit that you have to deal with.
AMIRA: Throughout this series, we’ve unraveled how gymnastic culture continues to threaten the wellbeing of Black girls. Time wise and resource wise, the sport demands a lot from its athletes. But even when Black girls and their families are all in, they face microaggressions that their white counterparts don’t.
AMIRA: Can you speak to some of the experiences or stories you've kind of heard that would make somebody want to leave a gym, even if they've found the resources?
DERRIN MOORE: Yeah. There's so much. The first thing that comes up for me is hair.
AMIRA: I know we’ve discussed hair a lot because it's a big deal.
DERRIN MOORE: I feel like other people, other cultures don't understand hair for us. It's not just that our hair is different, our hair holds so much power for us. When you come across people who don't understand it and who talk bad about it, it's more than just like, “Oh, I don't like your shirt.” It's major for us.
AMIRA: Betty Okino, Sophina DeJesus, Nia Dennis, and Jordan Chiles shared gymnastics stories that are relatable to any Black girl in an environment where kinky and curly hair is not the norm. In 2012, Gabby Douglas’ hair was a hot topic on social media and on major news outlets. All this was happening while Gabby was on her way to becoming the first African-American to win an all-around Olympic gold medal.
TIA EBERLINE: I remember reading those and being like, "Why does this even exist?" Like, when have we ever seen an article about white athlete's hair doing any sport? Literally never.
AMIRA: Derrin has her own gymnastics hair story.
DERRIN MOORE: So like I can remember, even for me, like doing like doing gymnastics and being on a cheese mat - which is like vinyl - and doin' a roll and your hair oil is on the mat. You know what I mean? “Ew what's that?!” You know, it's like, it's not “ew”. It's not dirty, you know? But that consistently, is... It will weigh on you.
AMIRA: Dr. Coutney Johnson, Brown Girls Director of Sports Medicine, has a hair story too.
DR. COURTNEY JOHNSON: One thing I remember a lot was the hair, because the girls would like do I don't know a bun or two buns or whatever, but they would put all this glitter in their hair. And my mom was like, "Absolutely not." [laughs]
AMIRA: Absolutely not. Like glitter is a thing that never goes away, either. [laughs]
Dr. COURTNEY JOHNSON: Yeah. And she's like, "We're absolutely not putting glitter in your hair."
AMIRA: Even Black judges like Jasmine Swyningan regularly deal with nonsense when it comes to her hair.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: I'm one of three Black judges in Minnesota.
AMIRA: In the whole state?!
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: The whole state. There's like fifty-five of us. I'm one of three.
AMIRA: My goodness.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: Yeah... And so, if I were to go to a gymnastics meet right now with my hair in braids, probably ten people would pet my hair without my permission.
AMIRA: Hair isn’t the only difference people feel the need to point out about Black gymnasts. Microaggressions come in many forms. Dominique Dawes’ bowed legs were compared to her white counterpart’s legs. Nia Dennis’ body was considered "too curvy," "too heavy". Betty Okino’s Romanian heritage was conveniently overlooked by her Romanian coaches. And Black gymnasts who don’t go to the Olympics or have viral floor routines face the same types of microaggressions.
DR. COURTNEY JOHNSON: I was competing - and at this point I was nine. My white coaches, like, pulled me aside and just said, like, you know, "Some of these meets were going to you may not get the scores that you deserve because you're Black." And, you know, it's like, "We're sorry about that. But, you know, you just know like what your scores consistently are. But, you know, it may be different when we go to some of these meets."
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: And so eventually the question had gotten to race. And I said, well, my mom's white and my dad's Black. Questions that had come from that are: "Have you ever met your dad? How many half siblings do you have?" You know, "Is he in prison?"
APLLONIA BARRIENTOS: I can remember the like my first week of practice in college, having a teammate walk up to me and just be like, "Oh, my gosh, this is so exciting." You know, "We finally have a Black girl on the team." And my mouth just dropped because at the time I didn’t really identify as just being Black because I am multiracial. I’m, you know, Mexican and Black. And so, it was just a shock to hear somebody just say that as if I were different.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: I had a couple of teammates who - Black teammates who really excelled on bars. And our coaches were always like, "Yeah, but your feet." And I remember looking at their feet and I'm like, "They're actually fine. Like there's actually not an issue. It's just that like one side is a different shade than the other side. But there’s actually nothing - like they’re pointed."
TIA EBERLINE: The judge said, "Oh, your your leotards too small." And I was like, "My leotard’s not too small. I just have a butt." So it's gonna right up a little bit, you know, versus like the people that are a little bit flatter back there.
AMIRA: It’s disheartening that little Black girls might be judged unfairly simply because of their skin color. But not shocking. Even Simone Biles hasn’t gotten the scores she deserved for skills named after her.
Simone Biles (Archival): I am almost 99.9% sure if any other athlete were to do it besides me, they would give it correct credit. But since I’m already way ahead of everybody, they kind of want to pull it back. Cause sometimes, they don’t think it’s fair that I win all the time.
DERRIN MOORE: So there are a lot of things you just stack on top of each other that, "Eh…I don’t want to do this sport anymore. It's not for me." You know? Or, "I don't belong here."
AMIRA: But I'm wondering if y'all and how you approach these other issues, such as abuse, injury, racism, disordered eating with the gymnasts, with the coaches, with the parents involved in the organization.
DERRIN MOORE: Woof. Um... Very carefully. We have a we have a monthly meet up with our members, and when we first started the meet up, the girls wouldn't talk at all. When you have gymnasts and coaches, coaches don't ask gymnasts what they think, you know? So, it was it was really difficult. The meetup with supposed to be an hour and we got through all of our activities in like fifteen minutes because they just weren't talking. But when we brought their parents in, the parents answered the questions for them because the kids talked to their parents about it, you know? So, it's been a very slow process. And this was... I guess... two seasons ago now... of getting the girls to even talk to us about what these issues may have been.
AMIRA: It can take years for gymnasts to process what is happening around them and to them. So, it’s not surprising the girls weren’t able to verbalize their experiences during the initial Brown Girls meetups. Betty Okino, who trained at the Karolyi Ranch in the 90s, didn’t fully understand what had happened to her until she was in her forties.
Betty Okino (Archival): And it was only recently in the last year as I researched that I began realizing that I had trauma from my gymnastics experience. And it's interesting with acute traumas how until we're ready to, I guess, process them and see them for what they are, they can remain hidden to us. That's our body's denial system, defense system, our protection that allows us to still function until we can actually deal.
AMIRA: Derrin and the Brown Girls team continue to have monthly meetings. And at the 5th Annual Conference they invited a psychologist to help the girls open up about their experiences even more. Nellie Biles, Simone’s mom, also saw the value in seeking professional help for her daughter early in Simone’s career.
NELLIE BILES: At thirteen - at age thirteen - I remember we talked about getting her to a sports psychologist. I believe I believe in counseling for these kids at young ages. I mean, this is not something to be ashamed of - to go and speak to someone.
DERRIN MOORE: There’s a balance... it's like empowering them to be Black girls, and then empowering them to be gymnasts and then Black gymnasts in this sea of like gymnastics, which before you weren't empowered to do anything other than tumble. It's just difficult, I feel like because of that authoritative relationship between a coach and a gymnast.
AMIRA: Yeah. For sure. How are the conversations with the parents on these topics?
DERRIN MOORE: They’re interesting. We have a workshop where we have veteran parents, talk to the parents. And we coined it the “Brown Table Talk” a few years ago. And I think because it's more like peer based, they open up. And the biggest point that they take away from that is to advocate for their gymnast.
AMIRA: Being an advocate for your daughter in a predominately white sport and taking her to practices regularly is a huge emotional and time investment for gymnastics families. But the financial investment that gymnastics requires is definitely one of the top reasons keeping Black girls out of the sport. Gymnastics ain’t cheap.
GYMNASTICS MOM 1: So, between the two of them monthly, I spent close to $750 a month for meet fees, coaches' fees and all that... twenty to maybe... about $4,000 for the combined. And then they have uniforms every probably two years and that's a good, you know, three, four, $400 per child. I don't know. It's a whole lot of money.
APLLONIA BARRIENTOS: Gymnastics is expensive. It's super expensive. When I did the math now as an adult, I'm like- it's like a mortgage payment every month.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: Tuition prices get higher, you know, the better that you are.
GEORGIA LOBBAN: Oh, my goodness. I mean, it's a car payment for most people. You know, it’s a very expensive sport. I mean you could be- especially during competition season. I mean, you could be spending easily about a $1,000 a month.
DERRIN MOORE: I would say if you're an optional gymnast, you're going to spend at least four to five hundred dollars a month on tuition. You will probably have eight or so regular season meets. And so each regular season meet your entry fee is around $75 bucks…
AMIRA: Between the monthly gym tuition; coaches fees; food, lodging, and travel for competition...
DERRIN MOORE: Maybe like $2,000 or so the season per gymnast...
AMIRA: Choreography and music fees...
DERRIN MOORE: Four to five hundred a routine...
AMIRA: Grips; leotards; and gymnastics camps…
DERRIN MOORE: $1,000 to $1,500 for camp for a week...
AMIRA: Parents can easily dish out $15,000 per year for higher level gymnasts.
DERRIN MOORE: I don't think I'm missing anything. I may be missing something…
AMIRA: Well, the way we're already like... [laughs] So much money!
DERRIN MOORE: So, Chae Campbell at UCLA - her mom's on the advisory council. Her mom was like, "I've already paid for college." Like, yeah, she got a full ride at UCLA, but like, I’ve already spent…
AMIRA: "I've already paid for this." Yes.
DERRIN MOORE: Yeah, you know?
DR. COURTNEY JOHNSON: That is a big part of why it's a predominantly white sport. Like I wish gymnastics could be accessible for any girl that would want to do it.
AMIRA: To make gymnastics more accessible, Brown Girls has virtual classes and scholarships for their camps and conferences.
AMIRA: I know, like other places have like scholarships or whatnot, but I'm thinking about like what it looks like to foster a pipeline for like all Black girls, including those who lack in resources.
DERRIN MOORE: It's so difficult! We do have folks who donate to us for scholarships, but it's specifically for conference and camp.
AMIRA: But figuring out ways to support young gymnasts on a monthly basis so they can attend practices regularly continues to be a challenge for Brown Girls.
DERRIN MOORE: If you pay for a month and then they can't pay for the rest then... you know, that money's just kind of wasted. So, it's hard.
AMIRA: How many girls have had to quit gymnastics because their families couldn’t afford the sport? Who knows?
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YOUNG GYMNAST 7: My goal is to go to the Olympics and to college and be a college gymnast. And then once I'm done with that, then I'm trying to be a gymnastics coach.
JASMINE SWYNINGAN: College gymnastics was always the goal from when I started competing when I was eight. I remember my parents both sat me down and they're like, "This is expensive. Like this is a big time and money investment. So, like, what do you want out of it?" I'm like, "I want to do it forever." And they're like, "What is forever?" And I'm like, "College." [laughs] Cause I'm eight!
AMIRA: Nia Dennis, Sophina DeJesus, EB Price, Hallie Mossett... all had successful careers as college gymnasts. And Jordan Chiles is currently at UCLA racking up ten in competitions. But they all went to PWIs. None of these women that I interviewed could have attended an HBCU and continued in gymnastics - because no HBCU had a gymnastics team. In the mid 20th century, HBCUs were at the helm of collegiate women's sports. Before Title 9 was enacted in 1972 - that's the legislation that mandated equitable resources for women’s and men’s sports - one of the few places a woman athlete could get a scholarship was at an HBCU. But despite the opportunities for women athletes at HBCUs, there has never been a competitive women's gymnastics program at one. And Brown Girls has been campaigning to remedy that. At the time of the fifth Annual Brown Girls Conference, Grambling was vying to be the first HBCU with a collegiate women’s gymnastics program.
AMIRA: And I was wondering if you could just talk about the importance of having gymnastics at HBCUs and how it has been to kind of work on these initiatives.
DERRIN MOORE: It's important for so many reasons. The first thing that comes to mind... just the decision that girls are having to make. Girls who go all the way level ten - maybe even elite - they don't have the choice of going to that HBCU that their granddad went to. And they may be going to, you know... home football games for all of their lives and going back for homecoming with their family, and they don't get to have that experience.
AMIRA: Deetra Dennis, the mom of viral sensation and former UCLA gymnast Nia Dennis, remembered family outings to the Bayou Classic, the annual football game between Grambling and Southern University. This HBCU tradition is celebrated the last week of November.
DEETRA DENNIS: My father's family is from New Orleans, Louisiana, and every year we would go for Thanksgiving to the Bayou Classic, and we would be highly exposed to all of the Black fraternities and sororities and the stepping and the battle of the bands. And that whole culture and atmosphere was just so beautiful. And my husband, Casey, he would be steppin' and, you know, all the time. And he would show Nia these these steps. And he and Nia would be stepping. And I thought, "Oh, that's cute." But then she actually incorporated that into her routine, I thought, “That’s unique!"
AMIRA: Because there were no gymnastics programs at HBCUs, gymnasts had to choose between an HBCU experience, which meant leaving gymnastics – maybe joining the cheer squad or dance team, – or continuing with gymnastics by attending a predominantly white university.
YOUNG GYMNAST SEDARA: I dunno like... I wanna go to HBCU because I want to like, support my culture and stuff like that. But I don't know, sometimes I also want to go somewhere else because they have better gymnastics or better educational programs stuff like that.
YOUNG GYMNAST KAITLIN: Oh, my gosh. That's another thing. I get so upset because, like, I want to do college gymnastics. But then again, I want to get my HBCU experience in. And there's nowhere for me to do that. And I also want to get my nursing school experience in. But there’s nowhere to do that. And it’s very heartbreaking. Cause I really do want to do it. But... by the time I get to college, there's not going to be any HBCU gymnastics teams... which sucks.
AMIRA: Well, there were no gymnastics programs at HBCUs when we went to Grambling in 2021... but there soon will be. Cause in February 2022, Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee announced that they’d be starting a gymnastics program just in time for the 2023 season.
AMIRA: Of course, we've been talking about. Gymnastics at HBCUs... And when we started talking about them, it was really a push with Grambling, obviously. And then out of nowhere, you know, we see this news that Fisk has announced that the creation of a program. So… what's... what’s going on? [laughs]
DERRIN MOORE: What’s happening?! [laughs]
AMIRA: Yeah!
DERRIN MOORE: Fisk came out of nowhere. It came out of nowhere for us too!
AMIRA: Fisk was a surprise choice because it’s a small liberal arts school known more for its academics than for its sports.
DERRIN MOORE: So, there's a mom - her name is Terricka Cromartie. She reached out to us like two or three years ago about the HBCU campaign and was really interested. She has two daughters who do gymnastics. Her kids go to Simone Biles’ gym. Her oldest daughter is graduating high school this year. So when she reached out, she was maybe like freshman and sophomore in high school and she wanted to see her go to an HBCU. And so over Thanksgiving, she reached out to me and was like, "I'm talking to my uncle about HBCU gymnastics..." And I was like, "Oh, cool!" And she's like, "He thinks he can make it happen at Fisk." And I was like, "What?!"
AMIRA: The uncle she is talking about is Frank Simmons.
DERRIN MOORE: And so, the conversation started because he was asking her daughter - her oldest daughter - where she is going to school. And she was naming all these PWIs... And he was like, "Well, where are the HBCUs?" And she was like, "Well, I'm a gymnast. There's no gymnastics at HBCUs." And he just- he couldn't believe it!
AMIRA: After learning that gymnastics wasn’t available at HBCUs, Frank put Derrin in contact with the president of Fisk University, Dr. Vann Newkirk Sr.
DERRIN MOORE: And so, I was like, "Who is this person that he can just, you know, call up the president at Fisk?" So, it turns out that he's on the board of trustees and he is who really pushed this to happen. We did talk to the president maybe two weeks after. He loved the idea. They wanted to build the athletic department a bit. So, that worked for them. They are really excited about empowering women, which I thought was awesome.
AMIRA: Derrin hardly had any pushback about starting the program at Fisk. One board member even committed to supporting the program financially.
DERRIN MOORE: Well, I won't say names... But someone on the board donated $100,000 almost immediately. And they want to do that every year.
AMIRA: While $100,000 cannot compare to the millions of dollars spent at established gymnastic programs at large Division One schools, it is certainly a great start. Some smaller schools are running their programs on only $45,000 a year. Fisk is also going to support the gymnastic athletes through academic scholarships. And a private donor has partnered with Brown Girls’ HBCU Gymnastics Alliance initiative to provide Fisk with even more funds.
DERRIN MOORE: The way that Fisk is looking at it right now is they want to go merit scholarships first, which is great because gymnasts, the median GPA - I think as of five years ago - was 3.6. So, these kids can come in and get academic scholarships and then they can supplement with athletic scholarship money. And then the private donors. Brown Girls Do Gymnastics is also working with a company but they've already solidified $10,000 that that will go to our HBCU gymnastics alliance. Which right now Fisk is the only school - so we can funnel that money to them.
AMIRA: Now that Fisk has a gymnastics program, and it’s financially viable, the next to-do item was to find the right coach to head this brand new team. Brown Girls also provided Fisk with a short list of possible qualified coaches. Every single person on that list was a Black woman.
AMIRA: Did you get to have any influence on who the coach would be? You get a voice at the table? [laughs]
DERRIN MOORE: [laughs] I mean, we had a little bit of a voice there. So, they really wanted someone with college coaching experience. And so, that's already a short list, you know? Of course, for me... I mean, I'm the founder of Brown Girls Do to Gymnastics... I wanted to see a woman of color. I wanted to see a Black woman with it being an HBCU.
AMIRA: Exactly.
DERRIN MOORE: So, there was a list. They asked us to, you know, give them a list of folks who we thought would be good. And so, the person is from that list. So that's pretty cool.
AMIRA: I heard a rumor that is a Black woman.
DERRIN MOORE: Yeah.
AMIRA: So, well... now I'm very excited.
AMIRA: I talked to Derrin before the formal announcement was made and it turns out, the rumor was true. And that Black woman is Corrinne Wright Tarver.
AMIRA: So, you have just been named the first head coach of the newly launched women's gymnastics program at Fisk University. Congratulations.
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: Thank you.
AMIRA: Corrinne is a trailblazer. In 1989, as a student at the University of Georgia, she became the first African American NCAA all-around gymnastics champion.
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: The college scene looked like every other gymnastics scene back then. There was a sprinkle of us. So... it wasn't any different.
AMIRA: At Georgia, she was a nine-time All American gymnast. Before going to college, she also competed on the US National team in 1985 and 1987.
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: I was already in a semi celebrity status going on campus. Not that I was a bigwig. But it wasn't like I was... people look at me like, "Who is this kid? Who's that?" And it was a big deal, like, that I was a Black gymnast. But I think it was also a big deal that I just made the national team and then I was coming to Georgia. So that was huge because back then that wasn't normal.
AMIRA: Her gymnastics career spans beyond being an athlete.
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: I mean, I've been a gymnast, I've been a collegiate judge, I've been a collegiate coach and I've been on the administrative side. So, I've actually seen every side of college gymnastics there is.
AMIRA: Listen, you're no stranger to being a barrier breaker, but I'm wondering if it feels... if you feel any sort of like extra burden or extra pressure to succeed... you know, because of this visibility and because it is the first and because you have the spotlight... Do you feel like you can box out all that noise or does that just like light an extra fire?
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: Uh... both. Both honestly. It's... it's a little overwhelming right now trying to figure out what has to be done. If it crashes or burns and it's gonna be... you know, it could be the end of HBCU's even considering it. And I don't want that to ever be the case. So... yes. But I think that's also why there's so many people out there like, "We're not going to let this crash and burn. So, whatever you need, we're going to get it done."
AMIRA: Right.
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: So, I know I have so many, you know, I guess I'd call them guardian angels, to some extent, out there who are ready to catch me if I start to fall. So... and I can rely on and lean on it if I just need whatever. Fisk is extremely excited. I mean, the reception that I have received is incredible. There's not a person on that campus that hasn't said, "What do you need? What do you need? We're going to make this work." They’re all in. [laughs]
AMIRA: In addition to receiving a wonderful reception from Fisk, Corrinne has received encouragement from the collegiate gymnastics community at large. University of Michigan, University of Central Michigan, Rutgers, and the University of Florida are among the programs that have already contacted Fisk to offer support to the fledgling program.
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: There's not just and HBCU community that wants it, but the gymnastics community wants this to succeed.
AMIRA: Have you begun to recruit? Is that one of the things on your long list?
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: I have begun. [laughs] I have begun. Derrin was great with this. So, she had a list of athletes that she had had. But also, there have been a lot of athletes that had contacted Fisk as soon as the announcement came out - they were sending information to Fisk. And so, hopefully we can find some of those girls who are diamonds in the rough, as well as girls who have names that want to go to an HBCU.
AMIRA: Corrinne will probably be the first Black woman coach for most of the gymnasts at Fisk. All of the Black gymnasts I’ve talked to remembered being one of the only Black girls on their team.
JORDAN CHILES: So, for my whole career I was the only Black girl on the team, which…I thought it was normal.
EB PRICE: I mean, when I first became an elite gymnast, there was still way more white gymnasts than there were other gymnasts of color.
ANGIE DENKINS: It is no joke. It's a predominantly white sport. It's a white sport.
AMIRA: They’ve had to deal with isolation, misunderstandings, and outright racism… in addition to all the other messiness gymnastics brings.
BETTY OKINO: Anything slightly askew, any little bit of like perceived talking back, is going to be misjudged. Because of the color of the skin.
AMIRA: Right. Cause it's not just that you're a sassy gymnast, you're a Black girl. You're ungrateful... you're...
BETTY OKINO: Exactly, exactly. You’re all whatever stereotypes they have already laid on you.
AMIRA: Gymnastics has long been coded as a white sport. And while Black athletes at the highest levels are challenging that idea, few have experienced a Black woman head coach or a Black gymnastic staff in general. The 2023 gymnastics team at Fisk will be among those few. I can’t overstate how special and important it is that the young Black women on the Fisk gymnastics team are going to be guided by a Black woman who has been there and done that.
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: I think the most important thing is the fact that I've been where they're where they are right now. I mean, as a Black woman, as a Black gymnast, as all of that I've been there. I'm hoping that the fact that they see me and know that I was a collegiate gymnast, and I was in the position where they might be, where I was the only brown skin anywhere to be looked down, initially, at first that it will help them to say, "Okay, she gets it." So, I'm excited about that.
AMIRA: One impressive thing about Brown Girls is that they’re not just about creating diversity among athletes, but Brown Girls is working to shift the power dynamics in all gymnastic spaces by increasing the number of Black coaches, Black judges, and Black administrators in positions of influence.
DERRIN MOORE: I'm proud of where we are, but we have so far to go…
AMIRA: What's next for Brown Girls? Well, Derrin's not telling…
DERRIN MOORE: Oh… I don't know if I can tell you what's next, it’s a secret. [laughs]
AMIRA: [gasps] Oh! That makes me excited because it feels like this really big then. [laughs]
DERRIN MOORE: Yeah... yeah. It is really big.
AMIRA: Oh my God!
AMIRA: But what has already been accomplished by Derrin, Corrinne, and all the Black gymnasts who have made history - and who are continuing to make history - give the future Black prodigies solid ground to stand on.
DERRIN MOORE: Now, it's not just "I want to be a superhero," it's "I see these Black girls who are superheroes." You know what I mean? And so, I can actually... It's closer. And I feel like more Black and Brown girls feel like they can do it in a way that we didn't necessarily feel like we could before, you know?
AMIRA: Yeah. Well there’s a- there’s also a poetry to how you're describing... and how really, almost everybody I've talked to describes the freedom they find in the air and - like you said - pushing yourself, and I think about it like... it's a way to be limitless in a world that so often places limits on you everywhere else.
DERRIN MOORE: Absolutely. That was poetry. [laughs]
AMIRA: I was supposed to end this series with this episode. But there is so much more to unpack. In the final episode for this season of American Prodigies, I’m going to tell you all the gymnastics stuff I wanted to talk about but that didn’t make the cut. Honestly, eight episodes just weren’t enough.
CREDITS
AMIRA: This episode of American Prodigies was reported and hosted by me, Amira Rose Davis. Story editing and production by Jessica Luther.
If you want to hear more of my interviews with gymnasts, subscribe to Blue Wire's Apple Podcast Subscription Channel. Along with ad-free episodes, you can listen to my full interview with Derrin Moore. Search "Blue Wire" in Apple Podcasts for access to all the extended interviews. It's free for the first seven days. Subscribe today.
This episode featured archival audio from the Olympic Channel.
Jessica Bodiford and Kelly Hardcastle Jones are our senior producers. Sound design, mix, and mastering by Camille Stennis. Isabelle Jocelyn, Kayla Stokes and Jordan Ligons provide production assistance. Fact-checking was done by Mary Mathis and Jessica Luther. Production coordination by Devin Shepherd. We had research help from Shwetha Surendran, Mariam Khan, and Mary Mathis. American Prodigies is executive produced by Peter Moses and Jon Yales.
POST CREDIT JOY
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: But that's me and Dianne Durham in the 80s.
AMIRA: This blouse is...
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: Yes! [laughs] And the long skirt. So that was when I was like... I think I was like fourteen years old at the time.
AMIRA: Oh, my goodness.
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: But I was so excited to meet her. And I just remember thinking, "Okay, yeah. I'm gonna catch up to her." And then I was like, "I'm gonna compete against her. I don't want to just meet her. I'm wanna compete against her." And then... Let me see if I can find the other picture... It was us all standing in front of the judges to salute - you know like you have to go to the judges before and they talk to you, whatever the case may be... And it was at an elite classic meet, and I was in rotation with Karolyis. So, I was standin' there with Dianne and I was like, "Yeah. I said I was gonna make it here. And this is where we are." And I was like, "No, she kicked my butt." [laughs] But that's okay!
AMIRA: But you're here….
CORRINNE WRIGHT TARVER: She was number one in the country at the time. So... you know... I was okay with that.