AMERICAN PRODIGIES
EPSIODE 6
TRANSCRIPT
AMIRA: Before we start, a quick content note. This episode contains accounts of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse, suicide and racism. You’ll also hear some swearing. Previously on American Prodigies:
BETTY OKINO: We definitely overtrained. It was like the way things were done then. You just keep training and going until something breaks. If it doesn't break, that means you're really strong and you're going to be a champion.
JOAN RYAN: You know, when something like this happens USA Gymnastics, you know, the higher ups say, "Well, where were the parents? The parents are the ones that are supposed to keep them safe."
COURTNEY JOHNSON: Gabby's style that is so beautiful to watch, even now, even reviewing going back watching her, is she's so crisp, she's so technical. It's so beautiful. Her floor routines are stunning without music because I hate all of her musical choices.
AMIRA: And when you could compete on your terms with music you like that moved you and you can move how you naturally want to move…
JOYCE WILBORN: I got tens! [laughs]
AMIRA: In 2016, Sophina DeJesus scored a 9.925 out of 10 on her epic floor routine for the UCLA gymnastics team.
Commentator 1 (Archival): Even if you don't follow gymnastic you actually might recognize the name.
Commentator 2 (Archival): And after what she did this weekend, Mike, millions more know the name. Sofina put on a jaw-dropping performance on Saturday as her Bruins hosted Utah in a top ten showdown at Pauley Pavilion. This was her first floor routine actually of the season. And let's just say she nailed it.
AMIRA: You might remember Sophina as that girl who clearly understood the assignment when she was in a dance battle on "Hip Hop Harry" way back when. Sophina took that dance training and infused her floor routine with Black music and Black dance moves. She is part of the first wave of Black gymnasts that got UCLA noticed for their bomb ass floor routines.
AMIRA: Okay, speaking of that viral video, will you watch it with me?
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Oh my gosh! [laughs] I go like this every time someone watches it, when I'm like with them...
AMIRA: But it’s like so…I just... I want to watch it
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Okay. Okay.
AMIRA: Right off the bat like, I just love the blue.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Thank you. Oh, and that's another thing that I did. I was like, "I really want to be my own person and be new." So, I found like a blue hairspray. And I was like, "Well, everyone's going to notice me because I’m the only with blue hair!
AMIRA: Yeah, no, you’re noticeable! [laughs]
AMIRA: In 2020, four years after Sophina graduated from UCLA, Nia Dennis would strut onto the scene, and continue in Sophina’s footsteps with a viral video of her own.
AMIRA: You hate watching yourself back?
NIA DENNIS: No, I actually do enjoy it.
AMIRA: All right, cool. Can you watch your routines with me?
NIA DENNIS: Yeah! I would love to.
Commentator 3 (Archival): What a fun routine!
Commentator 4 (Archival): Fabulous!
Commentator 3 (Archival): That was just... [inaudible] She is just...
AMIRA: These two women’s careers parallel each other. Both Sophina and Nia love being in front of a crowd.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I love performing, so I love showing off. I love attention.
NIA DENNIS: I’ve always known that I want to be a performer. And I am a performer. [laughs]
AMIRA: Both showed Olympic promise early on in their careers.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: And then at one point, the coaches already were like, "Oh yeah, she's going to go Olympics."
NIA DENNIS: My coaches were like, "You are so talented. You need to start doing like Elite Gymnastics... training for the Olympics..."
AMIRA: Both decided to go to college when they were very young.
NIA DENNIS: So, I knew at around eleven/twelve years old that I always wanted to go and compete for college gymnastics.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I actually verbally committed. I think I was like... hmm... I think it was thirteen...
AMIRA: And they were both drawn to collegiate gymnastics because it gave them things they weren't getting in the elite systems they were part of. Like cheering and camaraderie.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: What you see on TV and the teammates yelling and screaming and stuff... That- sure that was definitely fun.
NIA DENNIS: Cheering is definitely one of the biggest things, because in Elite Gymnastics, cheering wasn't so common.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I absolutely love that the crowd was cheering with me and screaming, Get a Ten!" And I was high fiving them like that energy will always stick with me.
AMIRA: And they both experienced a whirlwind of celebrity after their videos went viral.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I looked at my phone because I didn't have my phone and it was like blowing up.
NIA DENNIS: Took a little nap and I woke up and my phone was going cr-azy,
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I got to go on "Ellen" for the second time in my life
NIA DENNIS: Like literally I was shook. Got a shout out from Obama. What?!
AMIRA: But before all of this happened, before the college acceptances and the viral videos and "The Ellen Show" appearances, before the celebrity, it wasn't all glitz and glamor. Both of these women experienced turmoil, disappointment, injury, mental health challenges, and physical setbacks. Gymnastics did to Sophina and Nia what gymnastics has done to so many Black prodigies before them. I’m Amira Rose Davis. In this week’s episode, I talk to Sophina and Nia – and their moms – about how they navigated Elite Gymnastics and how and why they transitioned to competing for UCLA. We talk about the joy that came with their viral videos after spending years in a system that broke them down physically and mentally. We talk about struggle and we talk about healing. We also see how leaving the Elite world for college doesn’t mean leaving all the mess behind.
In reality, UCLA and other collegiate gymnastics programs are… well... more of the same. Many Black gymnasts are still dealing with racism behind the scenes. But Sophina DeJesus and Nia Dennis ushered in a new age in gymnastics, all while finding and remaining true to themselves.
[AD]
Commentator 5 (Archival): Sophina DeJesus...
Commentator 6 (Archival): Opening front double fall...
SOPHINA DEJSUS: Oh, my goodness. I'm like embarrassed watching myself.
Commentator 6 (Archival): I think so many of the fans that come to these meets wait for this event-
Commentator 5 (Archival): Yep.
Commentator 6 (Archival): -and these routines and you can see why... They do these big tumbling passes and then put on a show in between... Stuck that landing!
Commentator 5 (Archival): Yes, she did! [laughs]
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I think this is like my first time I've ever like, stuck the pass this hard. This is my favorite part.
AMIRA: Whoo! Like you can hear... [laughs] I love when they know choreography. [laughs]
SOPHINA DEJESUS: They had to watch it every day! [laughs]
Commentator 6 (Archival): Student section going crazy
Commentator 5 (Archival): DeJesus already has a pair of 9.85s on bars and beam.
Commentator 6 (Archival): Combination... Wow!
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I wanted to do this so badly - drop into the splits. 'Cause I never saw anyone else do it.
AMIRA: Yes!
Commentator 5 (Archival): [laughs] Sure. Amanda, I don't think we've seen that, right? This is first floor of the year.
Commentator 6 (Archival): That's the first time I've seen it in person.
Commentator 5 (Archival): Oh, look at that! [laughs] I don't know, it had just about everything.
Commentator 6 (Archival): [laughs] Well, it was fun to watch.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: That was one thing that I absolutely love about college is that you could go crazy with the salutes.
Commentator 6 (Archival): And then she went into her hip hop moves...
Commentator 5 (Archival): And salutes the crowd.
AMIRA: [laughs] Okay, I can't take it. [laughs]
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Oh my god.
AMIRA: "And then she went into her hip hop moves!"
SOPHINA DEJESUS: It's so funny how people like, say those things. It's like... huh.
AMIRA: If you’ve been listening to this series regularly, by now you know there have been many moments that left Black gymnasts wondering, “What the fuck is going on?” Sophina and Nia are no exception. Coaches made them feel different.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: And so, I went all out in my floor routine. And like, I did like a wink and I was like [clicks tongue] You know, and I was doing the most. And then at the end, you know, Marta Karolyi was like, “You know, that was really nice, Sophina, but like, you know, tone it down just a little bit..." You know, "Don't wink, you know..." And I'm like, "Oh. Okay." So, it was different 'cause I went from being able to do what I did to like realizing what the real like Elite world was like.
NIA DENNIS: And again, being- feeling like an outsider in this aspect, I was never really this skinny gymnast as I was powerful. I had muscles. I had some curves. And that always got me a lot of comments from coaches. "You need to lose weight. You're not fit. You're not in shape. You can't make it to the next level if you don't lose weight."
AMIRA: And their teammates made them feel different.
NIA DENNIS: There were a lot of comments when it came down to like chalk 'cause, you know, we use chalk so we don't slip and sweat and everything. So, there was comments about the chalk sticking out so much on my skin, like, "Wow, you're so chalky! You can almost be white." Like a lot of kind of like ignorant comments - just side comments - that, you know, eventually got to me and started to like, really add up over time.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I did my baby hairs and like, someone was like, “Oh, ew! Do use that toothbrush on your teeth, too? That's so disgusting!” And I was like- that made me feel insecure. Like, I was a little girl, ya know. I was like, "[gasps] No, I don't!" I was so defensive. I was like, "I don't do that! I have another toothbrush for my teeth! And then I do this one..."
AMIRA: Can we take a moment to appreciate that Sophina knew how to lay down her edges? I mean, Black gymnasts before her have talked about how much they struggled with styling their hair. But Sophina’s mother, Maria DeJesus, was not going to let her baby go off to Houston without knowing how to do her own hair.
MARIA DEJESUS: I asked, "Could I go to the camp?" No, no parents are not allowed at the at the camp. So, when she would go to camp, I kid you not, I'm like, "This is what you do with your hair because I'm not going to be there to slay your hair."
AMIRA: In 2014, Nia was invited to the Pan Am International Meet in Canada. While there, Deetra Dennis, Nia’s mom, was also prohibited by coaches from communicating with her.
DEETRA DENNIS: It was such a... something to... that was just baffling to me that that coaches and, you know, the Karolyis were in charge of my child and I couldn't have access to her. That was just really mind blowing.
AMIRA: Isolating child athletes from their families is normal in gymnastics. This destructive protocol creates opportunities for coaches, doctors, and other gym staff to abuse and neglect gymnasts. Like Sophina, Nia and her family were new to the sport.
DEETRA DENNIS: I don't know much about this sport. I don't really know what I'm looking at. I just know she flipped, she landed. Every girl looks like they're flipping and landing, so I'm not exactly sure what looks different about my daughter. But whatever the judges saw they liked and she would, she would oftentimes win.
AMIRA: Maria and Deetra each did what they thought was best for their daughters.
AMIRA: But there's something about protecting... you know...
MARIA DEJESUS: A mama bear. Right? So I was that bear.
AMIRA: Maria was not the one to mess with. When she felt her daughter was being mistreated, she put her in a new gym.
MARIA DEJESUS: I quit like ten gyms, okay? So, at one point I heard that she was pushed, she was hit... all this stuff happened. And the parents knew about it, so I was so upset! So, when she went to school, that's when I went up to the gym. And that's when I went crazy on the coaches, on the parents and the kids. And I just told the coach, "If I ever find out someone put their hands on my child again, is gonna be a lot of problem."
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Wait wasn’t the statement, “I mean, she's Black, so she should be able to fight." Or something like that? Or "Protect herself”?
MARIA DEJESUS: Yes. Well, I told you that because you wouldn't understand between the lines. He looked at me - and he's got this really mean look - and he said, “She don't look like she can't fight.” Like basically, you don't need any protection because you're Black. And so... right there told me that you were not going to be safe at that gym.
AMIRA: Maria also had to protect Sophina from extreme dieting.
MARIA DEJESUS: So, she will come in with pizza. You know, all the other parents was like, "Oh my God! She's walkin' in with pizza! We got to stay on a diet!" What? At seven years old? My kid's not going to be on a diet at seven!
AMIRA: And Deetra followed the coaches instructions.
DEETRA DENNIS: I remember coaches asking me, “Well, Deetra, what are you feeding her? What is she eating? What's her- what are her meals?” That was a conversation on the regular basis.
NIA DENNIS: And then also my parents... you know, like I said, they sacrificed a lot. So they were listening to the coaches but, you know, may not have been the best thing for me in the time. I was doing some extreme extra training outside of the training that I was already doing in the gym. And my parents are taking it seriously, putting on extreme diets and, you know, not really living my life at all.
DEETRA DENNIS: That all sort of stemmed from the Ranch and being isolated from our gymnast and them having to thrive, learn, grow, do the sport all under the regime of the Karoylis.
AMIRA: And the eating and body issues were made even worse by misinformation about puberty.
NIA DENNIS: Body shaming is definitely a huge topic in this sport of gymnastics.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: There was like this rumor when I was a kid that like if you started your period that means that you gained weight. And I remember when I fractured my back, I wasn’t doing gymnastics anymore, and that's when I started my period and I was crying. I was like, "That means I'm fat! That..." I just was going on and on. I'm like, fifteen years old saying all these things.
AMIRA: Deetra followed instructions and trusted that the gymnastics experts would do what was best for Nia.
DEETRA DENNIS: But basically, it was a lot of me asking, "Well, how did it go? Did you hit your routine? Your beam routine? Oh, you fell? What did Marta say about that? What did your coach say about that?" So, we were asking a lot of questions about the of the sport when we should have been asking other questions because there was a mental health component that was also emerging now. It did get to a point where - I remember she was probably ten or eleven years old, and she's going to these camps regularly now - and she's packing. And I'm kind of excited and like, "Oh, it's time for time to go to camp!" And she would- she just started crying. She just started bawling. And I said, "Well, what's wrong?" And she's like, "[sighs] I just I don't want to go." She wanted to go, but she didn't want to go. And there was something there. And at that time, I just chalked it up to the pressure.
AMIRA: Deetra has a vivid memory of another exceptional Black gymnast, Elizabeth Price - or "EB" as she’s often called. She was also a prodigy whose career started with the same finesse as Nia’s.
ELIZABETH PRICE: I think I realized it around the ages of like seven or eight because I was able to pick up skills faster than my teammates, I was scoring higher than my teammates at competition's, bringing home the most medals... stuff like that. So that definitely, you know, was a clear indication to a kid when you bring home the most medals - and on the podium the most - that you're better than the other kids that are there with you.
AMIRA: EB competed at the 2012 Olympic Trials. Deetra was there. And EB's performance made an impact on her.
DEETRA DENNIS: I remember watching her at the Olympic Trials. She came in fourth place and I'm like, "She's going to make the Olympic team." And when her name was not called, I specifically asked her aunt about that moment. She said that... something to the effect of: "EB's not gonna worry about that. She's gonna go to college. She's going to Stanford and she's moving on." I remember hearing "moving on" and I'm thinking, “You don't just move on from gymnastics!” Because she literally dedicated your entire life - your entire life just revolves around gymnastics.
AMIRA: EB did move on and continued to compete on Stanford University’s gymnastics team. Her Plan A was never the Olympics.
ELIZABETH PRICE: I mean, I think, like, my story is a little different from a lot of other girls because the Olympics was never at the top of my to-do list. Actually, I don't think it was ever on my to-do list. I mean, obviously, once I got to that level, I wanted to go to the Olympics. I- you know, I worked as hard, I deserve to go... yadda, yadda. But I was not sticking around for another Olympics because that was not my goal. And I always wanted to go to college... become an engineer...
AMIRA: Why engineering?
ELIZABETH PRICE: My parents were both engineers and-
AMIRA: Okay. [laughs] I’ve been so confused!
AMIRA: While EB and her family already had their eyes set on EB's engineering career, Deetra was trying to make sense of why EB was not selected for the 2012 Olympic team. EB instead was named an alternate.
DEETRA DENNIS: Maybe because of her color, maybe because of her body type, maybe because of her image she wasn't selected. Those are the things that crossed my mind. And I thought, "Well, is Nia going to be in that same level of consideration because she's also a Black athlete? She doesn't have all that flexibility - those lines - those long lines as the other white gymnast, for example. But she's got the muscle tone and she's got the explosiveness and she's got the power. And you know, she can tumble really, really great - just like EB Price." And so, when you know when that didn't happen for EB, it definitely was something that I had to take into consideration as well.
AMIRA: Even after seeing how EB was treated, Deetra continued to follow the coaches instructions - like most parents do. It’s also what most gymnasts do. But not all. Right before the 2012 Olympics, Sophina fractured her back at the Karolyi camp. At first, Sophina was examined by Larry Nassar.
MARIA DEJESUS: The doctor would call at the house all the time at the at that time.
AMIRA: Right.
MARIA DEJSUS: And that time, that's when Sophina hurt her back, though. So, I'm thinking, "Wow, they must really want Sophina!" [laughs] "Cause why is the doctor…
?"
AMIRA: Yeah.
MARIA DEJESUS: And then I start thinkin', “Why is the doctor only talking to Sophina and not me?”
AMIRA: Nassar said she was fine. But Sophina kept complaining about her back. So, Maria decided to seek out her own consultations. Three months of pain and three doctors later, Sophina was finally diagnosed.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: And finally went to the third doctor. And he was like, "It's obvious you have a fracture. So, you should have been staying off of this." So, I think it was more frustrating because I was still trying to train on something that was really hurting me.
AMIRA: Right.
SOPHINA DESJUS: Instead of three months ago, I could have still been fine and recovering from then.
AMIRA: Was that third doctor a gymnastics doctor or outside doctor?
SOPHINA DEJESUS: No. Outside Doctor.
AMIRA: Yeah. That says a lot.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: It does say a lot. Exactly. But I think if it wasn't for my mom specifically and me constantly telling her that I really am in pain, that I wouldn't have gone to another doctor, and another doctor. And, you know, she wouldn't have fought for me. And if I would have just stayed there, then maybe it would have gotten worse and stuff.
AMIRA: This might seem like such a simple thing: if your back hurts, tell your parents. But we’ve already heard, going back even before the 1980s, that athletes are expected to keep their mouths shut.
DEETRA DENNIS: Well, in gymnastics, they tell you- they literally tell you (they meaning coaches) they say not to show any, any hurt, any physical pain. And of course, you're never going to shout in the emotional pain if you cannot even show your your physical pain.
AMIRA: This is why Sophina’s complaining about her pain and Maria’s decision to get a second and third opinion is so remarkable.
AMIRA: How important was your mom in like shielding you and protecting you as you navigated, you know, these Elite spaces?
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Yeah. I mean, she- my dad was amazing. But he was worked a lot. So, he was the provider in that sense. So, my mom traveled everywhere with me. In general, my mom was there. She still is there. I wouldn’t be the person I am today without her. She's my best friend and my mentor and my manager, and my everything- Like, literally everything. Even though I have like other people. So, that was someone I feel like I could always go to, and I never couldn't tell her about something that was bothering or that I needed help on and stuff.
AMIRA: Because of her injury, Sophina was no longer a contender for the 2012 Olympics.
AMIRA: Was it hard to feel like - timing wise - "This is what I've been working for and now it's disrupted this plan?"
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Yeah... I mean, I definitely cried. I specifically remember crying in the car with my mom. But... I also... I try not to regret anything and stuff like that, so I feel like everything has a reason and a purpose. I was blessed to get a full-ride scholarship to UCLA. If it wasn't for my back injury, I wouldn't have been able to go to prom and join the dance team and really get back to like that portion of myself that like had left in a way. So, everything definitely happens for a reason, and I'm thankful for both sides. And I feel like my viral moment was like my Olympic moment at that time. So, I still got it!
AMIRA: Nia Dennis’s Olympic dreams were pushed aside in a very similar way to Sophina’s. Leading up to the 2016 Olympics, Nia’s Achilles tore.
DEETRA DENNIS: It was absolutely devastating. Devastating to our whole family, but especially obviously to Nia. I mean, she literally watched her dreams go down the tube because she had done everything, everything to get- and to put forth all of her effort to try to get to this Olympics. She home schooled, she gave up having a social life and she trained her hardest all the time.
NIA DENNIS: That was the worst time of my career, honestly. So, it was three months before the Olympics and my coaches kind of were pushing me to make it to Olympic Trials when I already knew that I could not do that because it was just too... it was just too soon after surgery. And I was just not prepared at all.
AMIRA: And it's hard to say that when you've worked so hard for that moment. And gymnastics, you know, as it's tied to the Olympics, it's so hard because it's tied to the four-year cycle.
DEETRA DENNIS: At that time, she would retreat to her room all the time. We would go in there, we would try to engage with her, and it was just this sadness - this deep, deep sadness. Which I now am calling it depression. We didn't label it as that before. We didn't see a therapist or anything like that. We just tried to, you know, talk to her as much as possible and reassure her, you know, she has a great future still ahead.
NIA DENNIS: I struggled with depression. I struggled with... suicide. I struggled with a lot of things and... to be able to go have a safe space where I wouldn't feel judged from anybody or judgment from anything, you know, that really helped get me on track.
DEETRA DENNIS: It never seemed like she was ever truly happy during the remaining years until she actually went off to college at UCLA. And then that's when she started to open up again.
[AD]
SOPHINA DEJESUS: So, I grew up in a small city called Temecula, which is actually majority white. And so personally, I didn't really notice because that was what I was used to. Gymnastics, dance and even like where I was living, I didn't notice. Until one day, I got a dance audition and my mom had to take us to L.A.. And we got scared of like... we got scared of something pretty much I think we got scared of a Black person. And my mom is Black, and she was like, "Oh, hell no! That- You're not going to be scared of your own people! Oh, no!"
AMIRA: Let’s take it back to the early 2000s, at the beginning of Sophina’s gymnastics and dance careers. Her mom, Maria, opened a dance studio so Sophina and sister could train and be exposed to Black culture.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Cause if it wasn't for the studio, I don't think we would have been able to keep up all of our dancing and stuff like that with going to school and auditions all stuff like that. It would have been too much to drive to L.A. for auditions and stuff and go to practice and go back to L.A. for dance classes. No, we need to have that in in Temecula. So I mean, we laugh about it and all that. I mean, I won those dance battles because of it! [laughs]
MARIA DEJESUS: Yes, you did! Oh, shoot, yes you did!
AMIRA: It’s- Well, it’s really interesting to see too, of course like, you know, people like Simone Biles are, you know, they built their own gym and part of the reason was similar in like, if you don't have all these spaces or you can't get to them or you don't trust the people in them, you create your own.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Right.
MARIA DEJESUS: Absolutely.
AMIRA: Maria built her own community. Her studio offered a space for Sophina to thrive. Fast forward to 2013, Sophina started her first year at UCLA. The transition wasn’t easy. Elite Gymnastics offered structure. Her mother offered protection. And at UCLA neither one of these things were easily available to Sophina.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I was like seventeen going into college and... I don't know if I was fully ready because as a as an Elite gymnast, I didn't realize I was like eating so healthy because my mom always packed everything right. Going into college, everything was always scheduled and at that point it was like not scheduled in a way? And dining hall food is freakin' amazing! So, I went crazy in every... not in every aspect but yeah, like I gained like twenty pounds in college. And then on top of that, like everyone- I've never gone to a party before. Everyone was partying and stuff like that, and I just I wasn't used to that. I had never said a cuss word before. I had never had a kiss before. And so like, it was like I didn't do anything that normal kids my age had done. So going into college and seeing people do that, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is weird! But I'm not judging you. But this is weird. This is-" So, it was definitely an adjustment.
AMIRA: In 2016, Sophina was a senior at UCLA.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: My freshman year, I competed floor. And so, they made up the routine, and I kind of put my own like pizzazz on it a little bit, but it wasn't like fully me, I guess, if you will. And then sophomore and junior year, I didn't compete floor. But then my senior year- As a senior, I feel like we have a lot more of feasibility to like, do our own thing, pick own music, do our own dance if we want to.
AMIRA: Sophina reached out to Maria for that same energy and self-affirming love that was reminiscent of what they had back at the dance studio. Sophina wanted to end her last year on the UCLA gymnastics team with a bang—and, with her family’s help, she did.
MAIRA DEJESUS: The moment when you came home and said, Mom, I'm ready to be Sophina again. And that right there was like so much excitement for me. Like I was like, "Okay, let's do it!"
SOPHINA DEJESUS: But I remember that. And then I remember first was going to the studio and telling them, like, "Okay, put the song here and there. And put a beat here."
MARIA DEJSUS: Oh yeah, that was fun.
SOPHINA DEJSUS: Then when we got the music cut, we got home and started making the choreography.
MARIA DEJESUS: That was amazing, amazing moment and I- to look at the spark back in your eyes that I hadn't seen in so long. I was like, "She's back."
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Right. Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know how you are feelin', mom, when I performed it. But I've said multiple times, like it was like an out-of-body experience - like my Olympic moment.
MARIA DEJESUS: I remember the moment you called me on my cell phone and says, "I'm going up." I was like, "Oh..." And I remember tellin' everybody she's going up!
MARIA AND SOPHINA: It's about to go down! [laughs]
Commentator 7 (Archival): Combination… Wow!
AMIRA: College gymnastics also offered Nia another shot at glory. She started competing with the Bruins in 2018. But it would be two years later when things really popped off. On her 21st birthday, in February 2020, during her junior year at UCLA in just weeks before the pandemic shutdown, Nia Dennis unveiled her newest floor routine. The stadium was packed.
NIA DENNIS: See: “Happy Birthday, Nia!”
AMIRA: Oh, yeah. I hear it now! [;aughs]
NIA DENNIS: Yeah. Somebody screamed that from the stands. Just hyping me up. Love it.
AMIRA: That ponytail, too, is serving. Like-
NIA DENNIS: Thanks, sis.
AMIRA: Her floor routine was a nod to Beyonce’s Homecoming performance from Coachella. Nia gave us looks, old school dance moves, and she even stepped. She scored a 9.975 out of a possible 10 points.
NIA DENNIS: And then of course, you know, the whole style was majorette dancing.
AMIRA: Yes.
NIA DENNIS: That's where I drew inspiration from. I have a lot of family in New Orleans. We used to go every single year. So, Battle of the Bands. I was in there.
AMIRA: Yep. And that was like to me when I saw I was like, "Oh. She's about to set it off." You know what I mean?
NIA DENNIS: Yeah. Yeah.
AMIRA: It's immediately recognizable, like whether- you know, whether you're at HBCU or you just from the South. Like as soon as you started, you know, walkin' it, everybody's like, "That's-"
NIA DENNIS: Yeah.
AMIRA: "We know. We know what’s up."
NIA DENNIS: We know! We know what’s up. I love that. That's awesome.
AMIRA: So, your dad's a sigma.
NIA DENNIS: Mm hmm.
AMIRA: I could see that. I could see that.
NIA DENNIS: Yes. He was steppin' around the house all while I was growing up. And I'm like, “Daddy, teach me!" Like, "I wanna learn how to step!”
AMIRA: Yes. When you think about that routine, what other things might people have missed when they watch you that you're like, "Oh, this is the meaning of that."
NIA DENNIS: Okay, so at the beginning I do my little strut-strut and then I'm just going like this... and people are like, “What are she doing?” I'm spelling my name.
AMIRA: Ahh...
NIA DENNIS: Actually... N-I-A. Dot the I. That’s Miss Val for you. When I came in as a freshman, she was like, “You're going to spell your name!” I was like, “What?” She's like, "Yes. It's going to be your signature. Big and in cursive. And don’t forget to dot the I!"
AMIRA: Dot the I. I love that.
AMIRA: Miss Val, who Nia is referring to, is Valorie Kondos Field, former head coach who retired in 2019. Though Val is known for gymnastics, she did not start off there.
MISS VAL: The examples that I had of strong, successful female coaches, they were very strong, stern... there wasn’t a lot of warm and fuzzy with them - with their athletes. And you know what, my posturing wasn’t as much about having to prove myself as a female coach as it was I came from this frilly world of ballet, of costumes and makeup and pointe shoes and tutus. And I had to, like, show my grit to the world. [laughs]
AMIRA: That grit didn’t sit well with everyone. Before Nia left Elite for college, Val was summoned by the UCLA gymnasts.
MISS VAL: The student athletes asked for a team meeting and for two solid hours, they gave me example after example of how my coaching style was hurtful and demeaning. And I remember at that point being conflicted because I thought, "Well, this is how all the other successful coaches have coached. And if I'm not going to coach like that, then I'm not going to be successful." And then the other side of my brain was saying, "Let's get to the big picture here. Are you trying to be demeaning? Are you trying to make them feel less than? Are you trying to belittle them?" No, no, no. "Okay, well, then then you need a change." And I didn't know what change was going to look like. But I just knew that I had to etch-a-sketch my style of coaching and start with a clean slate.
AMIRA: I'm wondering if at one point you woke up and was like, "Oh, I all of a sudden have all of these women of color in my program. And there's things that I haven't considered yet about how you mentor girls of color."
MISS VAL: I'm going to come clean.
AMIRA: Yeah.
MISS VAL: And I haven't said this publicly. Um... I didn't realize there were differences. And when Black Lives Matter happened last year and I took the time to call a good number of my Black athletes that had gone through our program, and I heard stories from them that I didn't know. And... I honestly- and I know that I'm not supposed to say, "I don't see color," because I know I'm supposed to see color so that I can really honor what the different cultures have gone through. I just saw them as lovely young humans that are going to develop into these champions in life and go make the world a better place. Had I been more clued into the differences in culture and how our different athletes were brought up, I could have been much more helpful.
AMIRA: Val may not have recognized the differences, yet she was still complimented for celebrating the team's diversity.
MISS VAL: Bart Conner, who was commentating for CBS at the National Championships, came up to me and said, “You know, Miss Val, you've got the most diverse team out there.” And I thought he was talking about our colors. And he said, “No, I'm not talking about their ethnicity. I'm talking about the fact that you celebrate each of them as their own individual selves instead of cookie cutters of each other.” He said, “You've proven that when you celebrate diversity, it is actually unifying versus divisive.” And I was like, "You could not have given me a better compliment." But it wasn't intentional.
AMIRA: Though Val was proud of having a diverse team, making space for those different types of athletes was not her first impulse. For Val, it was all about selling the sport of gymnastics. And she saw the value of floor routines that featured Black culture and capitalized on it.
MISS VAL: Once I shifted my mindset to "gymnastics is entertainment," "athletics is entertainment." Without people in the seats, you ceased to exist. So how am I going to fill Pauley Pavilion in Los Angeles? How am I to do that? So, I started thinking about our art meets as productions of entertainment. The viral videos - I realized after Sophina went viral, I understood the magic equation. And it was relatability. You had to have music that was relatable. You had to have had style of dance that was relatable because you're not going to go viral to 150 million people by only tapping into the gymnastics fans. But if you look at every routine that has gone viral: relatable music, relatable movement and joy.
AMIRA: Definitely the joy. And I would just say when you say relatable music, relatable dance, even with Katelyn, it's all Black music, right? Cause I was literally sitting here and trying to think of like viral gymnastics routines, and I'm not sure I can think of one that wasn't done by a woman of color.
MISS VAL: I would agree with you. And see, Amira, I- like I've never even thought about that!
AMIRA: And while Val didn't intend to make the UCLA program more Black, the gymnasts certainly did.
AMIRA: I know you were choreographing for your teammates around that time and I wanted to know if you were the choreographer behind Katelyn’s routine.
HALLIE MOSSETT: Yes, I was.
AMIRA: Wow. Kudos to you.
HALLIE MOSSETT: Thank you.
AMIRA: That’s Hallie Mossett, who choreographed Katelyn Ohashi’s 2018 viral floor routine and numerous other routines for UCLA.
HALLIE MOSSETT: 2018 was my fifth year and I had done like twenty-something routines that year. But before that, I did... I don't even know.
AMIRA: Countless. Lost count.
HALLIE MOSSETT: I couldn't tell you. But I’d done a lot of floor routines. You know, part of being a choreographer is for the person who's doing the choreography to blow up and get famous off of the work. I am totally fine with that. But just put a little respect on my name.
AMIRA: Exactly.
HALLIE MOSSETT: Just a little.
AMIRA: Internally, did you get thanks and recognition?
HALLIE MOSSETT: Absolutely. Especially for my teammates that I did the routines all four years. Some with Val some without her. My teammates have always been very grateful for me helping them. And I think everyone knows.
AMIRA: Hallie also had her own viral floor routine while at UCLA in 2017.
HALLIE MOSSETT: I was not trying to go viral, even though I had seen Sophina do it the year before me. I was so proud of her. And I thought it was amazing. But I didn't go into it with the mindset that I was going to get famous off the routine. I wanted to start the routine with a Black power fist because I felt like that was pushing a boundary for me. I wanted to do the Beyonce Single Ladies choreography because I liked it.
Commentator 8 (Archival): Whoo! Well, you reference Queen B, nothing but A’s for Mossett! A fitting conclusion to a comprehensive victory for UCLA. 9.975!
AMIRA: I think from the outside people are always curious about UCLA in terms of the fact that, like the labor on the ground is on the backs of y'all - particularly Black women athletes in the program. And then it seems like there's this level where it becomes the marketing department. It becomes who's tweeting about it. It becomes who gets to be front and center claiming credit for it. Who often aren't you guys.
HALLIE MOSSET: Mm-hmm.
AMIRA: And that, to me, is this is a huge thing. And so, I think it's so important for you to claim the labor that you did both as a choreographer but also as a gymnast. But it shouldn’t of taken that long for people to put some respect on your name.
HALLIE MOSSETT: Thank you. I appreciate that. I felt like Beyonce when she like did that Super Bowl performance- Like that was... that inspired me so much. And I felt like my routine was influenced by the culture. And I did it for the culture. And I don't think that it was advertised as "for the culture" by the institution. I think that people realized that it was for that culture and we made it for the culture, but when I was advertised, you know, it was like, "Oh, look at this diva!" I was always meant to put on a diva persona for the videos that we had. And I don't want to say that the Black women are used as propaganda…
AMIRA: I'll say it. The Black women are used as propaganda. [laughs]
HALLIE MOSSETT: But I will say that when we go viral... you know, they know that they're in the bag.
AMIRA: Chris Waller replaced Val as the new head coach at UCLA in 2019. But for the last few months, UCLA gymnasts Margzetta Frazier and Sekai Wright have shared with various publications that UCLA is not living up to its so-called “woke” image. Instead, they say the college program upholds a racist culture reminiscent of that found in Elite Gymnastics. UCLA is not the only culprit here. Other Black gymnasts have told similar stories about their college programs including Tia Kiaku from University of Alabama, Kytra Hunter from University of Florida, and Ashley Lambert from University of Nebraska. While going viral has afforded Black gymnasts opportunities both on the floor and behind the scenes, college gymnastics is not a utopia. Like Elite Gymnastics, collegiate programs are institutions. And neither were built with the athlete’s wellbeing in mind. Despite it all, Black girls continue to transform the sport. In January 2021, about a year after her first viral floor routine, Nia reminded us what gymnastics could look like with a second viral routine. You know, just in case we missed it the first time.
AMIRA: So, you have some Cali love in there. You have some Tupac. The whole thing, like you said, was just like so incredibly Black.
NIA DENNIS: Yeah. Let’s let it resonate. Let it simmer. Let it sit.
AMIRA: No, this is Blackety-black. This is like-
NIA DENNIS: Period.
AMIRA: And this went viral, too.
NIA DENNIS: Yes, ma'am!
AMIRA: Deetra had a chance to preview Nia’s second viral routine. And she was hesitant about the direction Nia was taking it.
DEETRA DENNIS: And I'll be honest with you. So as a person- as a Black woman in America, I have assimilated, right? And so, I've had to meet certain social norms in the workplace and in raising my family and just in general. And I said to Nia- So she starts that routine where she takes the knee and she raises a fist. And I said to her, "Nia, what would you consider placing your hand over your heart like you are showing showing pride to the American flag" And she said, "No, mom, I'm not. I'm not being white at this moment. I'm being Black." After I got over the initial shock, I was so proud that she did not conform to the societal norms, and she wanted to bring forth that message. That message of Black excellence.
AMIRA: Nia gave us music, she gave us looks, she gave us that high pony and lashes, all in the middle of a pandemic.
AMIRA: First of all, your face was beat. The first thing I noticed when this went viral, I said, "Do y'all see Nia's make up?"
NIA DENNIS: Thank you!
AMIRA: Look at- I mean, look!
NIA DENNIS: My lashes though…
AMIRA DENNIS: Everything. Everything. I was like... this girl. [laughs]
NIA DENNIS: As you can see, there's no fans here, so it's way quieter.
AMIRA: So, you have to create it.
NIA DENNIS: Yeah, we really have to create energy. Mm-hmm.
AMIRA: And so now you've already dealt with a little bit of a viralness. But this you know, this also blew up, right?
NIA DENNIS: Yeah.
AMIRA: I think you had like eight point something... nine million views on Twitter. Like it was it was everywhere. What was that like to have this, like, the importance of this one, especially catch people's eyes?
NIA DENNIS: Like I said, Black culture in gymnastics is not common. It's not really recognized. And that's what I wanted to do. And especially for people who don't know gymnastics, people who aren't involved in the sport or understand that or understand- And that's why I was even getting so many questions like, "Why isn't everybody routine like this?" Or "Why doesn't everybody have music like you?" Or something like that. And it's because, you know, I really wanted to... make a difference, make a change. My biggest message is that I want everybody to be authentic to themselves. And I want them to thrive in their own culture, in their own light, and in their own energy. Whatever makes them them - that's what I was really trying to get across. But, you know, I'm Black so...
AMIRA: Right.
NIA DENNIS: I was like, “That was easy.”
MARIA DEJESUS: The parents are sellin' their kids to that sport. That's just straight up. It's just- it's the nature of the sport unless you are going against the grain.
DEETRA DENNIS: I just remember thinking to myself, "We survived. We survived this regime."
AMIRA: At UCLA, Black girls like Sophina and Nia were able to carve out a space that let them be themselves in ways rarely seen in other parts of the sport. And because of the success of the program, it had ripple effects across the entire collegiate scene. The 2022 college gymnastics season has continued to give us viral floor routines from Black gymnasts like Trinity Thomas and Nya Reed from University of Florida and Jordan Chiles and Sekai Wright from UCLA. These viral moments are clear examples of how Black gymnasts are finding doors that are slightly ajar and throwing them wide open. They are strutting into the room and using their visibility in a myriad of ways: Sophina going into the world of entertainment and taking it by storm. (I mean, did you see her flip and fly in that Gatorade commercial?). Hallie is a coach and choreographing her own routines at Long Island University – with credit. Sekai and Margzetta raising their voices and pushing institutions to do better - all while serving viral videos of their own. And let’s not forget Nia bringing Black girl magic to the steps of the Met Gala – with a gymnastics twist. In the next episode of American Prodigies, we’re gonna talk about Simone Biles, the gymnast that has surpassed all others.
Commentator 9 (Archival): And just to mention on the back of her leotard - not sure if you guys saw that - there's a little goat.
Commentator 10 (Archival): Yes.
Commentator 9 (Archival): -in rhinestones
Commentator 11 (Archival): What does that mean?
AMIRA: The GOAT is using her visibility. Simone is standing up for herself and the survivors of a system with a reputation for chewing athletes up and spitting them out.
Commentator 10 (Archival): It means exactly what she is. She is the greatest gymnast of all time. And she has a lot more to do.
CREDITS
AMIRA: This episode of American Prodigies was reported and hosted by me, Amira Rose Davis. Story editing and production by Jessica Luther.
If you want to hear more of my interviews with gymnasts, subscribe to Blue Wire's Apple Podcast Subscription Channel. Along with ad-free episodes, you can listen to my full interview with Hallie Mossett. Search "Blue Wire" in Apple Podcasts for access to all the extended interviews. It's free for the first 7 days. Subscribe today.
This episode featured archival audio from Pac-12 Networks, Big Bang Music, UCLA Athletics, NBC Sports, and the Met Gala.
Jessica Bodiford and Kelly Hardcastle Jones are our senior producers. Sound design, mix, and mastering by Camille Stennis. Isabelle Jocelyn, Kayla Stokes and Jordan Ligons provided production assistance. Fact-checking was done by Mary Mathis and Jessica Luther. Production coordination by Devin Shepherd. We had research help from Shwetha Surendran, Mariam Khan, and Mary Mathis. American Prodigies is executive produced by Peter Moses and Jon Yales.
POST CREDIT JOY
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Cause like I had never had a kiss before. And so I remember... and my prom date was like, "Oh... like, I would like to end the night, like, I want to kiss." And I was like, "What kind of girl do you think I am to give you a kiss at the end of prom?!" Like, I was so mad. But then going into college I was like, "Whoa, this is... a lot!"
MARIA DEJSUS: Well, now that you say prom. Remember prom?
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Oh yeah! That’s another rose colored glasses!
MARIA DEJESUS: And... oh, my god! [laughs] Let's do it.
SOPHINA DEJSUS: Tell them the story.
MARIA DEJESUS: Okay, let's talk about it.
SOPHINA DEJESUS: Tell them the story.
MARIA DEJESUS: You =broke your back and you got on the varsity dance team and nobody knew you - everybody kept thinking you were this new girl. But prom was coming! And I was like, “Guys are gonna be scared to ask her to the prom. And I don’t want my daughter not going to the prom!” But I told Susie, “Who’s the most popular guy that everybody wants to go to the prom with?” And she’s like, “Oh, Shaq. He’s blah blah blah.” I’m like, “Okay. This is what we’re gonna do. You go to Shaq and you say, ‘Look. You are gonna be taking my sister to the prom.'" And do you remember when you came home and says, "Mom, can you believe a football player asked me to the…" Remember?
SOPHINA DEJESUS: And he gave me flowers and a note... And you’re like-
SOPHINA AND MARIA: “What!?”
SOPHINA DEJESUS: "No, way!" No.
MARIA DEJESUS: Girl...
SOPHINA DEJESUS: I’m so mad. I’m still mad.
MARIA DEJESUS: Susie and I planned it out for a week. So we had to-
SOPHINA DEJESUS: And then, come to find out, you said if that was going to work, you were going to find me a date at the mall!?
MARIA DEJESUS: Yeah. Cause yeah. I would have found you a date.