NY911Truth.org members disparage the FDNY at Ground Zero

At the beginning of this paper I introduced the group NY911truth, which some friends and I confront on Saturdays at Ground Zero. In my first appearance there, in June or July, 2006, the first thing the group’s leader Les Jamieson said to me was, “We should have a debate.” I’m sure he didn’t know then that I knew far more of the facts of 9/11 than he, although I had only been looking into the CT claims for three months and he had been doing so since November, 2001. We did have an impromptu mini-debate before the video camera of documentarian Fletcher Holmes. The subject was the collapse of WTC 7, which Jamieson believes is one of the best pieces of evidence in favor of the “inside job” theory.

I reminded Jamieson that the firefighters reported massive damage and raging, uncontrolled fires, and that the Chiefs, specifically Chief Nigro, gave the order to withdraw the firefighters from the area long before the building collapsed. He replied that perhaps they had been ordered to withdraw by someone higher up, such as Nicholas Scoppetta, the FDNY Commissioner, who presumably got his orders from someone who was in on the plot.

That made me very angry. It was the first time I had heard someone blame the FDNY for the collapse of WTC 7. Since then, I’ve heard at least three other members of Jamieson’s organization make the same claim while standing on the ground where so many heroes died.

Let’s keep in mind what it would mean (only as far as the FDNY’s involvement is concerned) if
Jamieson was correct:

1. The top people in the FDNY were so corrupt that they called off a search for hundreds of fallen firefighters in order to participate in a crime.

2. The FDNY Chiefs who claim to have made an agonizing decision to stop rescue operations in the area around WTC 7, in order to to keep rescuers from becoming victims, are lying.

3. All the people on the scene who reported massive damage and uncontrolled fires on many floors at building 7, and who said they were sure that the building would collapse (we’ll read their reports later), were coerced into inventing those stories in order to cover up the crime of deliberate demolition of a skyscraper.

4. The massive amount of smoke seen billowing from nearly every floor on WTC 7’s south side did not indicate massive fires.

5. None of the 16,000 uniformed or civilian members of the FDNY, or anyone else who was involved in this huge conspiracy, has come forward about these issues in the past 5 years.

Les Jamieson, leader of NY 911 Truth

Jamieson has appeared twice on the NYC-area television show Hardfire, where his arguments were eviscerated by host Ron Wieck. Watch it here part 1 and here part 2.

Firefighters’ Statements: “Of Course They’re Lies!”

Following is a transcription of an audio recording I made at Ground Zero on September 16, 2006. Bold type indicates shouting. The participants are me, Les Jamieson, and a particularly volatile and ignorant member of his organization named Jack, who is a regular on Saturdays.

Jack, member of NY 911 Truth

A substantial crowd had gathered. First, I read the Daniel Nigro quote above to Mr. Jamieson. Here it is again. It bears repeating:
“The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.”

Me, to Jamieson: Chief of Operations, right here, who gave the order to start clearing this area three hours beforehand. And you’re saying that Larry Silverstein gave that order? Why?

I pull out a sheaf of quotes from FDNY eyewitnesses that detail the fire, damage, and suspected collapse of building 7.

Me: I’ve got page after page corroborating that. Page after page corroborating the damage, page after page corroborating that he gave the order, page after page saying that they did pull the men out starting at about 3 o’clock. But you blame Larry Silverstein. Why?


Me: Oh, did he?

JACK: PULL is the operative word! You say “they” was the operative word? IT WAS PULL. P-U-L-L!
I hand him the printout of Silverstein’s statement.

Me: Here, read this to the people. Are you afraid to? Let’s see if you get it right. On 9/11, I gave this quote to four different people of your persuasion, and every single one of them said, when they were reading it, said “He” decided to pull. Now you read it. See what it says.

JACK: We went through this before. This is a reprise of a previous episode. [True: from about an hour earlier!] He asked me to read this paragraph. I’ll read the paragraph, and let’s see if it’s going to register as funny, okay? I read the whole paragraph, and he says to me “read the last sentence.” I say, Okay, ‘And they made that decision to pull.’

Me: And who was “they?”

JACK: No, wait a minute! Here’s the punch line. I say to him, “What’s the operative word here?” He says to me “They.” NO. IT’S PULL. P-U-L-L!

Me: Okay, I’ve got 15 different quotes here where fire department– (JACK starts to walk away) You gonna stand here and listen? –Where Fire Department people use the word “pull,” meaning pull their people out.

JACK: You don’t even understand English grammar! He said “IT!” “IT!”

Me: Yeah, the operations. The firefighting operations. I don’t understand English grammar?

Jamieson: People were pulled out at 11:30, weren’t they?

Me: No, sir, they weren’t. As you know – because I’m sure you’ve read the quotes – it started at about 2:30, the pullout. Before that they were trying to rescue their people who were under the rubble here.

Jamieson: I have 11:30. So even if it’s 2:30, why are they saying to pull it at 5:20?

Me: When did the conversation with Silverstein happen? Hours beforehand.

Jamieson: No.

Me: Yes, sir. You’re saying that Chief Daniel Nigro is lying? You’re saying the Fire Department is lying?

Jamieson: Silverstein is lying, maybe. Could that be?

Me: About what? His story corroborates perfectly with what the Fire Department says.

Jamieson: ‘Cause he says “We agreed to pull the building, then we watched it collapse.”

Reminder: Les Jamieson is the leader of one of the major 9/11 “Truth” organizations, and he claims to have been investigating these matters since 2001. Also, Jamieson was listening attentively 30 seconds earlier when Jack read “And they made that decision to pull.”

Me: No, sir. He says “They made that decision to pull.” Who’s “they?” He’s on the phone with the Fire Department.

Jamieson: Right.

Me: So you’re saying the Fire Department’s lying, when they’re saying that they made the decision?

Jamieson: How does the Fire Department have the ability to pull?

Me: To pull? To pull their men out. (I shake my sheaf of quotes) Fifteen different times they use the quote “pull,” meaning pull their men away from the building–


Me: –and thank God they did, because no one was killed when building 7 collapsed.


Me: Was that a good decision or not?

Unidentified Truther:PULL IT!

Me: And they did that three hours before the building collapsed.

Jamieson: What about–

Me: I’m asking you a question. Is the Fire Department lying? You’re saying Larry Silverstein gave the order. I have page after page of quotes. Are they lying?

JACK: This is total obfuscation! Total obfuscation! What difference does it make if the time is plus or minus two hours? He said “PULL THE BUILDING! PULL THE BUILDING!”

Jamieson:PULL THE BUILDING! And it fell straight down! Not south!


Me (reading from FDNY quotes): Fire Department Chief Daniel Nigro: “The biggest decision we had to make–“


Me:“–was to create a collapse zone around the severely damaged building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.”

How about this: “There had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.”

And this: “The building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see. So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped.”

Here’s another: “They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. ... Finally they pulled us out.”

Here’s another: “Seven World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling, fully involved.“

Here’s another: “There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it.”


Me: Yeah, it’s a lie? These are all lies the Fire Department is telling? I’m recording this, by the way.


Jack walks away, shaking his head. Jamieson makes no objection to his statements.

Please let Les Jamieson know what you think about what he and his organization’s members say at Ground Zero. His 9/11-related email address is jazzyday@earthlink.net