G-L1323

This is the home page for men proven L1323+ or predicted so.   So far the typical 
marker values of L1323-- combined with typical ancestral background -- are solid
predictors of L1323 status.

L1323 also includes a small subgroup of men who share an unusual 13 value
at the DYS392 marker, a marker which seldom changes values.  Virtually all 
other men in this branch of the G tree have a value of 12.

The 13-17 value at marker DYS385 or something quite close to this is the most 
distinctive feature of the L1323 subgroup.  Both the Kuwaitis and Jewish men 
within the mother group to L1323 have DYS385=14-15. These values can change 
at any time.  So the SNP L1323 is far superior to unreliable marker values for use 
in defining the L1323 subgroup.

L1323 is the most recent branch of a series of branches.  The next most recent
was L1324 which includes more persons than L201.  Information about the 
overall L1324 group can be found to the left in the G-L1324 tab.  Even earlier
was the M342 branch which incorporates all men
designated as G1.  See G-M342.  Finally the oldest is the M201 mutation
which encompasses all men within haplogroup G.  See G-M201.

Composition of the L1323 Subgroup

So far all the members of the L1323 subgroup seem to share a common ancestral
history, specifically last-known origins in Kazakhstan.  A correspondent indicates
that a high percentage of the L1323 men in the G Project belong to the 
Argyn tribal group.

Although not knowing they are likely L1323 men, Biro and others in a specialized study
in 2009 gave this summary of their sampled men who are very likely L1323:
"The Madjar people live in the Torgay area of Kazakhstan.  According to their 
limited written and oral history, they settled around Lake Sarikopa .300–400 
years ago, most probably arriving from the Karatau region to the south-east, 
which now lies in Zhambul county of South Kazakhstan."   It is unclear presently 
where the Torgay area is located, but the cities associated with it seem to be to 
the south of Kostanay.  This group sampled is a tiny part of the Kazakh
population.

Samples were collected from the villages of Saga, Koezbel, Kumshiq, Bidayik, 
Taush, Ashutasti, Aythuar settlement, and Altinsarin, and from towns close to the 
Torgay area, Amangeldi, Arkaliq, and Oktyabrsk, where recent emigrant Madjars live.
Is this study 39 of 45 men sampled (87%) had marker values similar to those of the
L1323 men in the G Project and were confirmed as having the mutation
which defines G1.

They tried to establish in this article that the Madjars are related to the similarly-
sounding Magyars of Hungary.  Their argument is that the Madyar branch on
a multi-population survey was rooted in the phylogenetic chart near the Magyars.
But the branch shown is unusually long, and G1 has no visible presence in 
Hungary and the numbers of markers used to make this calculation were few in
number.   So the relationship is not proven.

In a map made in 2002 which included percentages of haplogroups in various 
countries, haplogroup G was listed as having only a small percentage of G in 
Kazakhstan.  In that study, they sampled Ughurs at Almaty and Lavar, as well
as Kazakhs in  Almaty, Katon-Karagay, Karatutuk, Rachmanovsky and Kluchi.

Among the men in the DYS392=13 subgroup, several were identified in that study
and were from the mentioned Torgay area of Kazakhstan.  The only DYS392=12 man 
in the G project providing information indicates an ancestral home near Kostanay 
in the north of the country perhaps in or just north of Torgay.  

The Age of the L1323 Subgroup

Within L1324, the sister subgroups to out L1323 are closer in marker values to each
other than to L1323.   The common ancestor that L1323 shares with its sister
L1324 Kuwaiti and Jewish subgroups lived more than 5,000 years ago.
The marker value comparisons at such a difference are too imprecise to allow
precise dating.   Whole Y-DNA sequencing within these subgroups will allow
 a more precise calculation.  Within the L1323 subgroup itself when comparing 
67 markers, the highest number of value differences is 11.   This suggests the 
common L1323 ancestor lived perhaps 2000-3000 years ago.  This is just the 
comparison of the men in available samples.  There may or may not be
an earlier branching off of the L1323 grouping that occurred for which we do no have
any samples.  And it is also just as possible that the ancestors in the L1323
grouping simply lived as a small family grouping for thousands of years after the 
branching from the common ancestor with the Kuwaitis and Jews.  In this latter
case, other L1323 branching may not have occurred.

The DYS392=13 subgroup does not have enough samples available to give an 
accurate estimate of its age.   The samples that are available likely share a
common ancestor during the late Middle Ages or later.

Maps for the L1323 Subgroup

This subgroup is too new for maps to have appeared in research studies under the
L1323 name.   The G SNP subgroups have their own maps.  
Look at top left of map and choose  the L1323 subgroup.

Origin of the L1323 Subgroup

It would be speculative to try to pinpoint migrations of the L1323 subgroup
until recent times.  Full Y sequencing will provide more accurate time
estimates.  Since the concentration of haplogroup G today seems to be in the
Near East, including Iran, there is some likelihood that a migration took
place from there toward Kazahkstan at some undetermined point in time.

Source Information

There have never been any publications specifically looking at L1323 men in  
populations.

The study by Biro and others in 2009 that included men with L1323 marker
values is found at:

Rootsi and others in 2012 provided 4 Kazakh samples in their supplement
whose marker values samples seen in the G Project.  They are DYS388=12 men.

Zerjal and others in 2002 found only a small percentage of G among
Kazakhs of Kazakhstan:
[Haplogroup G was then included in a predecessor category]

TABLE 1. Haplotype and haplogroup analysis of the Madjar population from the Biro study
No DYS391 DYS389I DYS439 DYS389II DYS438 DYS437 DYS19 DYS392 DYS393 DYS390 DYS385 n Haplogroup

2      11         13          12            28           10         16        13         12         13          23      13/17   24   G1/-P20
3      11         14          12            29           10         16        13         12         13          23      14/17    2    G1/-P20
4      11         14          12            29           10         16        13         13         13          23      13/17    4    G1/-P20
5      11         14          12            29           10         16        13         13         13          23      13/18    1    G1/-P20
6      11         14          13            29           10         16        13         12         13          23      13/17    3    G1/-P20
7      11         15          12            30           10         16        13         12         13          23      13/17    1    G1/-P20
8      12         14          12            29           10         16        13         12         13          23      13/17    4    G1/-P20


Special Testing

The following L1323 men or predicted L1323 men have the following results
for newer, poorly defined G SNP mutations:   [results may be from varied labs]
                                                                                                     + means positive, - means negative
L31- Naimanov 
L72- Naimanov
L78- Naimanov
L79- Naimanov
L90- Naimanov
L116+ Naimanov
L139- Naimanov
L142- Naimanov
L149.1- Naimanov
L154+ Naimanov
L166- Naimanov
L183- Naimanov
L190- Naimanov
L204+ Naimanov
L224- Naimanov
L269+ Naimanov
L293- Naimanov
L297- Naimanov
L353,1- Naimanov
L373+ Naimanov
L374+ Naimanov
L375+ Naimanov
L376+ Naimanov
L377- Naimanov
L378+ Naimanov
L379+ Naimanov
L382+ Naimanov
L402+ Naimanov
L486- Naimanov
L496- Naimanov
L519+ Naimanov
L520+ Naimanov
L521+ Naimanov
L523+ Naimanov
L605+ Naimanov
L654.2- Naimanov
L660- Naimanov
L661- Naimanov
L662- Naimanov
L668- Naimanov
L694- Naimanov
L697.1+ Naimanov
L698- Naimanov
L769+ Naimanov
L770+ Naimanov
L830- Naimanov
L831- Naimanov
L832- Naimanov
L833+ Naimanov
L834- Naimanov
L835- Naimanov
L836+ Naimanov
L837+ Naimanov
L1256- Naimanov
L1257- Naimanov
L1258+ Naimanov
L1259- Naimanov
L1260- Naimanov
L1261- Naimanov
L1262- Naimanov
L1263- Naimanov
L1264- Naimanov
L1265- Naimanov
L1266- Naimanov
L1268- Naimanov
L1269- Naimanov
L1323+ Atanov, Kenzhebulatov, Naimanov, Ualee, Yerlan, Zarapov
L1324+ Naimanov
L1325+ Naimanov
L1326+ Mukanov, Naimanov
L1326- Kenzhebulatov, Mukanov, Ualee, Yesov, Zarapov
L1327+ Naimanov
L1328+ Naimanov
L1328- Mukanov
Page25- Naimanov
Page99- Naimanov
Z1992- Naimanov

The following DYS392=13 subgroup men have the following results
for newer, poorly defined SNP mutations: 
                                                                                                          + means positive, - means negative
L1323+ Atanov
L1324+ Atanov
L1325+ Atanov
L1326-  Atanov
L1327+ Atanov
L1328-  Atanov
L1412-  Atanov
L1415-  Atanov
L1424-  Atanov

         more info about these SNPs can be found at:
                   type L1325, for example, in the Landmark box.  After searching, look
                               for the small L1325 in the colored area and click on it.

Comments