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Anders Behring Breivik Court Transcript 2012-06-20 Live Report

Wednesday June 20 2012


9:03 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - Then we have brought the first witness. Tor Østbø.

9:04 VG: - The witness oath.

9:06 Witness, Tor Østbø: - [Lawyer Hallgren: - Yes, Østbø we can go back to 22 July last year and that your life was very changed]. Yes, I was home the last day before the holiday so it started as a normal day. I cycled to work as I used to do and would actually ride home, then had to bike on the repair to replace the brake pads. It is fast that it happens.

9:08 Witness Wed Østbø: - So we talked on the phone during the day and I was out shopping, but then she told that the bike was not finished yet and would take the subway home. Ten past three, she had some problems with your PC, then she should log off. (...) No, it was not so dangerous, she said. Then turn her off. Avgangsregistratoren said she left the premises, Youngstorvet at 15.15. She had two choices, either to ride or Jernbanetorget Akersgaten.

- It's just as far in both directions. So she chose as Akersgata. And then mark the all what happened, except me. I cycle when the home and showered and changed. To a colleague of Tove called and wondered if she had come home. I said no, but that she could have gone back shop on way home. [Hallgren: - Did you know it then, Østbø that the bomb had gone off?]

9:10 Witness, Tor Østbø: - But then the bell rang. And when I started calling and calling and calling. [Lawyer Hallgren: - To her] Yes, to her. Then came that I had to call the police and an automated voice that said I had to leave the machine. I told the police that there was something wrong with the machine, and nothing was recorded on it. Maybe you should have seen it. So I called Ullevål and all the things you do. There was hope, despair and fear.

9:11 Witness Wed Østbø: - Everything that is moving the head. [Hallgren: - As you were told?] Yes, twenty past nine in the evening. I wrote a diary for those days. I wrote down everything that happened the day after advice from the priest. Then the doorbell rang, it was the Church guard duty or something similar. I said, 'OK, now I know why you come. " It was the priest who came. Then I was told, and went to his son and was told. Also I called around to all those who might have told.

9:12 Witness Wed Østbø: - [Hallgren: - All your friends and family.] Yes, as far as I could the day there. [Hallgren: - How well do you remember those days? You say you wrote down things, but how well you remember it really?] It was unreal. It was like a bubble. The days were filled with things that needed to be done. You were outside of yourself. There were lots of things to consider. The reactions were actually a few months afterwards. [Hallgren: - There are many rituals associated with death.]

9:12 Witness, Tor Østbø: - Yes, for better or worse and they are kept in a routine, a new routine. In particular, a lot of attention and participation in something like this here. [Lawyer Hallgren: - Did you read newspapers?] Yes I read the newspapers and watching TV, but not all the time. [Lawyer Hallgren: - You got what happened at Utøya] Absolutely.

9:13 Witness Wed Østbø: - A colleague of mine had her son at Utøya. [Hallgren: - As d u knew about then? What happened to the colleague's son?] He fortunately survived, but her boyfriend was killed. [Hallgren: - So do you have that week that goes, how goes it?] I was in a bubble, there were so many things to consider. In relation to one's own grief and the massive ... yes ... attention, sympathy, which was perhaps more overwhelming in our case than the ones we read about in the newspaper every day who have died in traffic accidents or the like.

- Yes, but they are probably much more lonely. I got a lot of support from neighbors, everyone. People I had not talked to in a long time that made contact and all of society. [Hallgren: - From the community in general, what do you mean?] What we all have registered in the media in supporting declarations and symbolic actions that were made with flowers and so on. In a way, so ... those who are still those who were killed, there were representatives of all of us.

9:16 Witness, Tor Østbø: - [Lawyer Hallgren: - What do you mean?] Because the defendant, as far as I understand, has stated that it was not those who were killed and injured, they were named, but there was something representing the existing one. It was government power, and some were random. Tove accidentally went off. But the other was random. If you work the front desk in a job if you're making a social time to work in an agency or devoting your free time in the organization so it is something we all do in some way.

9:16 Witness Wed Østbø: - So that I perceive that this was perceived. [Hallgren: - And that they looked like were random victims.] Yes, all were random victims, on behalf of us in society. That's how I experienced it. [Hallgren: - When the funeral was over, did you return to work?] I took a few days at the cabin, so I started to work 3-4 days after the funeral. Firstly, it is good to get back into everyday life and enjoy the support of colleagues. For me it was correct, but for others there were other solutions. [Hallgren: - You have been in the job site?] Yes. [Hallgren: - Daily] Daily.

- [Hallgren: - So began the main proceedings in 16 april. Prior to that, is there anything you would like to say something about the period? Before we started the main proceedings.] It was a hard day. Then there are those represented in the media. I think it has been properly and correctly. Personally, I would say that I think the media has been very considerate. [Hallgren: - Have you had inquiries from the media?] I have had some inquiries, but when I said no, it has been respected.

9:18 Witness, Tor Østbø: - [Lawyer Hallgren: - You've had a little rush through me] Yes, and also directly. [Lawyer Hallgren: - It has been respected all the way] Yes, I think aboslutt. [Lawyer Hallgren: - You have chosen to read newspapers, watch TV, you have really lived as normally as possible in the time afterwards?] Yes, I thought it was the right to take life back and live normally. Of course, there are heavy moments, but it is only myself that can get me further, then it's good to be in the job and be able to read it here.

9:20 Witness Wed Østbø: - [Hallgren: - So began the main proceedings 16 april. How did you deal with it? I was here a few days, but chose not to participate in the rest, I have read on the net in between. But do not follow anything (...) [Hallgren: - And the days you were here, how did you experience that?] Neat and nice but a bit disappointed when each of the victims were (...) For me it was a case , 3-5 minutes, clinically described by the damage. We talk about ... it was real people. The dimension I felt was gone then. The victim witnesses, did you see live people. So it was late, but very good that you got the heat recovery with a small description and image, that is what this case is about.

9:21 Witness Wed Østbø: - [Hallgren: - If they were killed and those who were injured.] Those who were hurt and suffering that has been applied. [Hallgren: - It was shown a picture of Tove, and I read some words that you had written about her. Can you describe her?] She was a person you had to be happy in. It was not just me, but everyone who came in contact with her. She was lively and fun and happy and living in the moment. She was never cruel, it was just very funny. And so very concerned about people and living things. Flowers. When we would visit the cabin, we had always picking flowers.

9:23 Witness, Tor Østbø: - And we drove home. [Lawyer Hallgren: - Because] we had plukle flowers. Wildflowers. [Lawyer Hallgren: - You mentioned mussels] Yes, you should enjoy. For example, last summer it was quite rainy and dreary weather. The 21 July was sunny and nice. Wednesday there had been "Summer Open" on TV and someone had made dishes. Then we had bought the ingredients and she was going to make it to me. She told me to relax, and that she knew I struggled to relax.

9:24 Witness Wed Østbø: - Also, when we take a bottle of wine then. [Hallgren: - So you yes or no?] I said yes. [Hallgren: - So good. I know that you are glad you did.] It would be sad if I had said no, but it was the way she was. She could catch the moment and make something nice out of it, not just us together, but also in general. When I read the autopsy report. There was evidence that all of her toenails were painted in different colors. It was so typical her. [Hallgren: - It is very rare that it is there. But your image of her is a man of many colors.]

- [Hallgren: - You have lived in Oslo for many years. Where are you from originally?] Harstad. [Hallgren: - How long have you lived in Oslo?] Some forty years. [Hallgren: - What relationship do you have for the city?] This is my town, then. I have lived many places in the city, in Asker and Bærum, but that is where I belong. I love to use the city, use the forest. [Hallgren: - You also love to ride.] Yes. [Hallgren: - The defendant did to the city, you have some thoughts about what it is like to live here, who we meet here?]

9:27 Witness, Tor Østbø: - It has been one of the dilemmas of how to be. And I feel, selfishly speaking, I can say that no death victim is worth it to should follow the principle. I've been places where ministers drive past, and one block of the streets. Such a society is safer, but I will not have that example. Around 2010, six months before we went and bought a Christmas tree and it was then-Justice Minister Storberget there with their children. As we talked together about how nice it is in society where a minister can go like a normal father of young children and buy a Christmas tree and it is a society that I want. Then we'll take the risk of having it open. [Lawyer Hallgren: - It's one of the Norwegian values?]

9:29 Witness Wed Østbø: - Yes, that's what we said. If there is anything that makes us proud to be there is it, more than having the oil dollars on account. That we have a society where politicians, judges others representing the state, can be as ordinary people around, without fear for their own safety. [Hallgren: - We understand that you miss, what have you done to be able to live with this?] Trying to take life, control it, and function normally, support from family and friends, at least once a week I get questions whether we should go in the trip (...) It has been very good neighbors. [Hallgren: - It is not right what has always argue?] My truth is that it's very good at Ullern. So we have had a support group who have had collections on Modum Bad, which has for me been a very good support, because we have a common grounding in a common experience. It has been very nice to speak, it appears that others are carrying the same thoughts.

- [Hallgren: - So there has been a help to you?] Yes, if you have other feelings than politically correct, there are several who have it like that. [Hallgren: - What do you do?] I've known before, at first, known hatred and anger, and to say that some people, I have felt that I wanted him to burn slowly in the blackest hell.

9:32 Witness, Tor Østbø: - What they say something about this with anger. Man is cursed and one should not express it either in the AUF and the community. But it is natural for me, others I've talked to. It is part of the pictures you have. [Lawyer Hallgren: - Part of the grief?] Yes. Being angry. Talking about those things. That we have there and then. [Lawyer Hallgren: - It is the individual grief that you feel. At the same time, we have the collective grief we felt last summer and autumn how it has been balanced for you?] Sometimes I have been angry over the collective grief in Norway is so correct. It's nice that we have roses in hand, but we must dare to say that there are things we ... we get mad and we get angry. We will explain away the sickness thing and everything will fit into the harmony of the Norwegian model.

9:33 Witness, Kirsten Vesterhus: - [The witness oath]

9:34 Witness Wed Østbø: - It has made me a bit. It's not that I'm right, but from my point of view. [Hallgren: - Is there anything else you would like to inform the court or would like to say?] If there should be something, I think this is very good evidence of how our system works, all branches of government. If I'm going to be a bit personally I feel that maybe that is the core of this case has been veiled, mist added, in recent weeks. For me it's as simple as that if someone knows what they have done and have planned it on purpose, it has fog added the core of this matter, which is that 77 are killed, countless are injured for life, many will be delayed, large material damage. It is the core of this issue and justify it with examples, but that's the system I feel it is important to take back what this is about.

- [Arntzen: - Yes, thank you. Sorry, you must be a little more, it is perhaps others who have questions? [No questions and Østbø get go.] When can we get the next witness.] [Larsen: - She is sitting in the audience, so she can just pop out.]

9:36 Witness, Kirsten Vesterhus: - [Lawyer Larsen: - You are my mom to the Havard-lived house, can you tell us about who the family consist of?] It is Alf, who is the father. And then there's Jo's older brother and two younger siblings. [Lawyer Larsen: - Can you tell me something about the family that day, which was Alf when this happened?]

9:37 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - We did not really break, so we went into work anyway. I work in the Ministry of Government Administration and Reform, and he works in Agriculture and Food. So we were in government building both. We went there during the ten minutes before the bomb jump, and we did not hear the explosion as we sat in the car. (...) We went on home, so we stopped at Tåsen to buy flowers, we were going out to dinner. There, we hear that it's been a bomb.

- And he says that it is in the government quarter. When I come out of the car, Havard has called Alf, he wonders what happens. [Larsen: - How did Havard it?] He was relieved that we were in safety, and safety was affected. He also called when Alf sat in the car. So we drove home and tried to inform us about what had happened. So call Havard fairly shortly after the shooting at Utøya has started. [Larsen: - What says he?]

9:39 Witness, Kirsten Vesterhus: - He is desperate and says that it is shooting there, but they do not know what's going on and he cries. He is falling apart and is very desperate and says he has run down to the water and hide in there and tell that someone is injured. And then I try to calm him, I spoke with him and simultaneously begin Jo to call 112 and I say we should get help. Then we have the period which is a kind of "battle mode" because we're trying to get help all we can. We'll call and have many conversations with the 112, we get them to understand the seriousness, it's just a feeling then.

9:40 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - We have contact with him by SMS. [Larsen: - What conveys Havard] That they need help, the military must be made, they need helicopters, the police are on their way in the air and on water. [Larsen: - How was the hour for you?] With emotions completely outside, where the despair became larger and larger. Was there no one who knew this? The answers seemed the whole trip, in a way. For us it was so obvious seriousness. Before Christmas, we heard the calls through, we could not refer, we realized that our responses were not adequate.

9:42 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - So despair that became clearer and clearer. So we had a suspension that they would help. And was also told that the helicopter was on its way. So we expect that things will work out. [Larsen: - What was the last contact you had with Havard and what was the content?] I sent a text message where I asked if it was quiet there now. He sent a message that they shoot now. It was the last message we received. We know that he put out an update on facebook a little over six that they hid themselves and were alive. [Larsren: - Went to Sundvollen you?]

9:44 Witness, Kirsten Vesterhus: - Yes, we went away and while we were on our way out we were told that people should go to a hotel in Sandvika. There was nothing, there was no information really. And having been there a while so we went there again and then we had not had contact with Havard. My feeling was that Havard would have reached us if he was alive. The best we could hope for was that he was among the injured. We went to Ullevål hospital and examined those who had come in there and we investigated whether he was one of the other hospitals that had taken the other. Then there was very little hope. [Lawyer Larsen: - If you look if we go further on the hour. Have you done any thoughts in hindsight if it was something you had done or done differently, there has been no such thoughts in your head?]

9:44 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - It was a troublesome thing to go through. We should have said that he was swimming, but we did not know how far it was. I know well how Utøya is, but I'm not familiar with the island that way. He was a very good swimmer, so there is one thing. And that they should not have been a lot together, for example. It was not natural to say, "you just gotta go." [Larsen: - What are your thoughts ... who is responsible for what happened really?] It is the perpetrator. He is responsible for what happened.

9:47 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - [Larsen: - If we go to afterwards, how .. can you tell us about how it has been? If we take the first time first. How has it been?] I know ... I do not really how we got through the days. It is as comatose states. I do not think any of us understand how we did it. [Larsen: - How long was it until you got the message that he was dead?] It took six days. He was the last pot that had been identified. It took until Thursday and the priest came on Friday. [Larsen: - You said there was little hope, but you had not gotten the message. What goes through your mind then?]

9:48 Witness, Kirsten Vesterhus: - No, I think maybe we were a little different. Some hoped it would be a miracle and that it could be something else strange. [Lawyer Larsen - who hoped for the family?] I know that someone in the family has said that something happens that you can not imagine, for example. I felt that I had no hope. [Lawyer Larsen: - How did you get through the first week? Was there anything special you did or used as a method?] We had family and friends who helped us. Our immediate family came and helped us and kept us going. But it was terrible for them and. Havard had close relationship with cousins ??and aunts, but they were able to support us. We managed to get up and get through the day.

9:50 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - It was good weather and I found some comfort in bathing in the Aker river, in fact, go into the water. [Larsen: - Can you try to say something about what konsekvnser it is for a family who lost a son?] No ... it is that we will break some all together. Each one of us go a little break [wipes tears] Also there will be [describe the grief]. Sometimes I feel that we fall short. [Putting words in grief]

9:51Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - And it's a very hard thing to live through, but we must remember that it is possible to get through it. And the sorrow that will change color and character. [Larsen: - Havard was midterst in the herd. Say something about him and it.] Thus, given that it's so hard to be a family together, one would perhaps not think he was the glue. That's a picture of how difficult it is to take them further. He was a very empathetic and warm person. Very good. A very good boy. He was a very rare power, pure and simple. He had a good head for the intellect, very big job, yes, along with tremendous empathy and warmth, pure and simple.

How to describe Kirsten Vesterhus son Havard: - He was a very empathetic and warm person. Very good. A very good boy. He was a very rare power, pure and simple. He had a good head for the intellect, very big job, yes, along with tremendous empathy and warmth, pure and simple.

9:54 Witness, Kirsten Vesterhus: - And it is clear there is a huge loss. [Lawyer Larsen: - Now There are two psychologists in the audience to tell what impact this case has had. What are the symptoms of grief? What consequences provides that Havard is gone?] Is certainly the grief, there is a sorrow for all that we had lived and had together and all that we do not get through. It's many physical effects such as insomnia, nausea and the first time I was very sick and that you are tired. Worn in a way. That it is hard to concentrate, it is difficult. You are very forgetful it's sort of - not that I have not been forgetful before - but there are come across in a different scale. [Lawyer Larsen: - Can you say something about the consequences for the job for you and Alf?]

9:55 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - We were completely absent from work for a while, so he stepped up, and work almost full now. I work less. [Describes how it goes with her sister and brother of the late Havard.] I do not think it is so easy. Now it's been a while, but I can not say that things have become so much enkllere. It goes on and on then. [Larsen: - What is it going?] It's like waking up every day that Havard is gone, and he gets shot ... It's like ... some of the difficulties in understanding, it comes again and again. So you have to believe that things add a little more into place then. [Larsen: - Have you been in this trial and been with you what has happened here?]

9:57 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - I have followed some of the trial. [Larsen: - What would you say about ... how is the trial in this grief?] I have thought before the trial that it can not make much difference, because the worst has already happened. But I do not think it's that simple. I think it helps to keep everything high in consciousness. There will be light, there to be done. [Larsen: - Do you have any thoughts on what is important for you and your family to come in relation to the decision being made here and what happens next?]

Afterwards, two expert witnesses in the witness box. These testimonies broadcast on VGTV:

9:58 Witness, Kirsten Vesterhus: - No, that is, the most important thing is that the perpetrator is inside the cage and never come out again. If the trial or sentence you are talking about. So it appears that he has been very clear about what he done. But now we do not just psychiatrists. It's a little disheartening that so much has been about it. There are really many deaths and serious injuries and many broken lives. [Lawyer Larsen: - Do you think he has too much focus?] I do not know if I had been worried about this had been carried away a little faster to put it that way. [Lawyer Larsen: - Is there anything else you want to append to the end Kirsten?]

9:58 Witness Kirsten Vesterhus: - I think we have worked hard to figure out what happened on Utøya and it is a problematic side, we believe that the youth did not get the help they had received. We have had great difficulty getting answers to our questions, it is well known in the media. But I will say that it certainly has added to the stone burden and I think it may help to develop a more complicated grief, that we have heard so many strange things. [Larsen: - When I have no further questions, Judge?] [Arntzen: - Have other questions? When you are finished with your explanation, thank you for attending.]

9:59 VG: - The right to take a break at 10:20 am.

10:23 VG: - The court is set.

10:25 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - When we have two new experts in place. I'll start taking some personal information from you. [Dagfinn Winje and Are Holen tells about herself and makes insurance.] As I understand it the way that you have created a PowerPoint presentation, so you can start on it.

10:27 Expert Witness, Are Holen: - When shall I begin, we share some of the future. And I think they have been very helpful to have the two witnesses before us because they turn your attention to what we now must go through is all about. It is to look at the fates that this bombing and shooting at Utøya has created. The disorder that has manifested itself in the psyche of the many affected. Not only those who were on site, but their family and friends, that way there was an incident that affected the entire nation, both directly and indirectly.

10:28 Expert Witness Are Holen: - We divide the presentation, so that we go through the outline that is sakkydighetserklæringen. We would prefer to go through the continuous first. If possible, we question rebound. [Arntzen: When do we find the declaration. Where is it? [The judge scroll forward.] [Larsen: - Perhaps we should point out that it is approved by the forensic commission, without any remarks.]

10:29 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - Revered right. I should explain the structure and mandate it is the structure we are going to follow. Expert Declaration's purpose is to account for mental health problems. It is we who have posted a possible mental health problems in parentheses, for we have not talked to the victims. We'll talk about what can be expected.

10:30 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje: - The basis of representation is that we have done forskningssøk for articles for a particular setup that you see here, and I have attached a reference list of expert declaration. In addition, we had access to police interrogation and the transcript of the victim's statements, unfortunately not for the survivors nor campers who were on shore during the firing. We have been present in court and observed injuries and the victim's testimony and now we have heard two survivor testimonies today.

10:31 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - And we have built on their research and clinical practice. Declaration descriptive part is generally about clinical health. The mandate is divided up as follows: [list of various items, including prevalence, ordinary symptoms, possible causes, and prognosis] We are asked to account for current diagnoses.

- But they asked us to give an account of the groups involved in the bombing. There is a group that is in the government quarter, people were Utøya, who gave assistance, survivors and relatives after physical and / or mental injuries. This will affect all the people groups who have had contact with the bombing or shooting at Utøya. In addition, we are asked to address the special circumstances associated with children and young people and their reaction patterns. And how it affects the functioning of work, school, and daily functional abilities,

10:34 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - And how the constant media focus could affect the current problems. So it's a pretty big piece of the requested report on, when I give the word on to Holen. [Holen: - When the mandate is thus referred to and then we move on. We use some terms. Stressor, it is the objective situation that triggers pyskiske reactions. These are strong life events or events that trauma. We had a discussion in the declaration, we have used violence claims. We had a discussion whether there was a word we should use or not, it was based on criminal injuries compensation should come into the picture. Perhaps in compensation alone would have been more appropriate, as we were in doubt.]

10:35 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - There are two main conditions for this to have psychological problems after such strong events. Stressorkravet case of serious danger and serious rap. One must therefore have been in a SITUATION, for many it is quite obvious. The second is that this situation they have been in to give a reaction, response requirements, documented in psychiatric diagnoses. This leads to malfunction, they can not sustain jobs, relationships. One is thus diagnoses and other functional failure.

10:36 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - It is then mainly those things, then we start going into the medisimske and psychological knowledge that exists about the repercussions. Some in the U.S. have created a collection of data. There are 160,000 people surveyed at different times. This says something about how many people have problems. 11 percent have minimal effect. So it is 51 percent, about half that gets a moderate effect, it is the psycho-pathological features of 25 percent. [Continues to list on the different percentages.]

10:39 Expert Witness, Are Holen, psychologist: - In these different samples were 77 of them had psychiatric diagnoses and those who had it was post traumatic stress disorder. At 68 percent it was the largest diagnostic group. Then there is depression in 36 percent and anxiety disorders in 20 percent. There is a picture but it's not exact, but an approximation of how this might turn out. [Judge Arntzen: - Say something about this stressorkravet? Is there an assumption in the stressor?] No, it does not, there is more reaction to the page that it shows. The grading of stressor item will come back to later.

- Okay, then I will just say that the PTS for the U.S. diagnostic system, the relatively specific criteria. It is generally assumed here. So one has concluded that the existing criteria are too strict, that it is now called subterskel, parciell PTS, if you put a milder demands on reason, the proportion should be higher. Okey. [Winje: - Now I'll continue to say little about what has been found in research on post-traumatic symptoms.]

10:42 Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - The .. everything is well documented, but the event level of threat against a person's integrity and health. The incidence of pain increases. The experience of gruvekkende scenes resulting in panic actions, those that say something about the threat. It is also important event. The volume will increase. Also, economic losses, particularly related to major disasters, such events. The scope, I think that we are well-documented in court. A family is a dynamic composition, and when a person disappears, this interaction is changed forever.

10:44 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - incident causes, of course, plays a large role and is greatest when someone intentionally trying to hit one. What we call human events. The reason we are here today is a strong example of this. But events are significantly influenced by the omission. The impact is at least if there are random events, natural disasters and the kind of thing. Forunderbarhet incident, it was about this could have been anticipated, it could have been prevented. When you go to that it could be, it is difficult to bear. Man is a meaning-creating being. Man is dependent on trying to understand what has happened.

10:44 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - Therefore, such things as controllability be central themes all the way and to an increasing extent. If a person has control of a hazard is minor reactions. Those who manage to influence the situation little or a lot, have something to fall back on. We saw here and have seen it in the literature. Sacrifices take very much care of each other during the event. Making it plays a major role. When you feel that you have tried to take some control in a situation that is so overwhelming. (...) Bet crew, rescue police, society, politics, bureaucracy, the press. If you arrive or have a strong feeling that the scope could be reduced, controlled, so does the impact stronger.

10:45 Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - And it's like that in this small trial is almost like a sea of ??people outside who need information about how this happened and why. If it could have been controlled, it could have been prevented. The research also shows that the event's predictability have something to say. We generally refer to research. Just as it was dangerous to send their children to Utøya? Was it dangerous to work in the government building? In the other cases. Was it right, you could walk through the park at night? Why were there so many rapes and things like that.

10:47 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - Predictability. Incident of physical and somatic stress plays a role, it seems we at soldiers and also here. I think of those that swam around in Tyrifjorden a long time. Tired, cold, asthma, seizures, vomiting, believe they will drown. Then there's also a physical aspect here. [Holen: - Before proceeding Winje should I make with this and when it comes to stressor exposure as it is of course possible to say that to experience being shot three times worse than being shot once. Trauma Researchers have tried to see if there are objective elements of the stressor that plays a role.]

10:49 Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - It has largely fallen into that if you are charged over a certain threshold, it is essential. If you are under the threshold will be well managed. (...) They stressorvurderingene is that a threshold element comes into play. The emotional bond you have with what we have been affected here. It has emotional ties to themselves, those who are injured and the dead. The stronger the bonds, the stronger the reactions will be in the future. Another element that plays a role in the community. The environment you will be in order to recover. How affected is the environment? Could it affect you in supportive direction? Is the event triggered by another person, it evokes a stronger reaction than if there is chance to do so.

10:51 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - [Holen: - So I have given my little comment, then continues Winje.] I said something about what may contribute to the occurrence of post-traumatic reactions. We will now go through what may contribute to this. [Going through criteria] - Pre-taumatiske - conditions that were present before the incident occurred. Those who have been suffering from anxiety, more frequent ailments. The effect is not very big, but it is significant. Women are twice as many diagnoses. It is critically reviewed and well documented. Environmental Factors: Factors in the family can play a role. Mental illness in the family.

10:52 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - We should not ignore that the incidence of mental illness in the family and previously worked trauma can have a positive effect. It's not like there is a once a victim always a victim. In the case of peri-truamatiske conditions, it is the event's objective seriousness. Then comes the subjective severity of the event's individual experience or interpretation of the situation. It was not so very many ways to interpret the situation on either Utøya or ministries other than that there was danger, danger. Even the leader of Delta group, emphasized that point. They knew nothing.

10:54 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - This was a very dangerous situation. They spent a long time to get an overview. The youngsters had an overview, is not to be surprised. We have received many testimonies from the government quarter and Utøya that they have witnessed the death, injuries, atrocities. I do not think we need to inform the court. Of course, there are some you know, it has some significance. But no one will like deluded, even if you do not know them. To attest to the ways I talk about here, includes not only see but also hear, smell and feel. I am thinking of these young people behind a piano or Love trail, or wherever it was. There was a lot of sensory input that gives psychological burns.

- The situation contains opportunities for confusion and pacification, isolation, the person is just standing. We have from police interviews a couple of good examples. And how about when they take hold of him / her and wake him up so they can help to save himself. Post Traumatic conditions about conditions after the traumatic event. Where the player support from family, friends, colleagues, a great role. Waiting for clarification of important issues, insurance, social security, judgment, commission statements. The longer they wait, the greater the impact.

10:57 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - We have heard today about a family that waited for five days before they finally got the message. And in the five days I have put a lot of imagination and hope. We know from other accidents, "he might have come up there." "Maybe he is trapped somewhere." Maybe, maybe. "Maybe he is not able to take care of themselves." Why is it so important that victims or survivors and survivors receive information, quality assured information early. That one does not go out with information that is not assured. Back to humans is a meaning-making system, to our attributions flourish in the post and the years to come.

10:58 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - It is about forhindrerbarhet, controllability, and the ideas of causation vedkomne have about the situation and its consequences. One thing is particularly difficult for people to carry. It is meaningless. We will try everything we can to find a meaning, an understanding that allows us to take this with us. Therefore, attributions to the various actors to be as central to the post-traumatic time. It is important that it be dismissed. Someone needs to go the long way. Why he ran to the left and right, why did she not give up his limbs down, why did not the police before, how important was that they did not have helicopters? It is man's way of trying to recreate a context or meaning. And it takes time.

- Assessment of their own symptoms and own / others' ability to deal with them. It's all about, "Am I crazy? Am I being crazy? Am I the only one who thinks like that? Am I the only one to make? "Ambient reactions recognition of needs. Work environment and work colleagues play a larger role than we had thought. Coming to back to work and get colleagues and employer support is invaluable. It is in the aftermath of all this that the real work begins.

11:02 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - "Now it's gone a-half years, now it's been a year since." "Now you've got money." It's the environment, they need to move on. For those affected there will be a constant reminder that life is fragile and it is a reminder we can not bear to confront very often. Most of the total change in life. It is quite a bit after a traumatic event. A person is gone, but for those who are affected, it is large and significant changes in existence for a long time to come. All it means to belong to a majoritetssgruppe has great benefits. Knowledge, attitude, language, support opportunities. It do not belong there is a risk factor. One-parent families have fewer resources to attend post-traumatic loads with.

11:03 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - It is also related to the next point, lower socioeconomic status. If you have limited resources, it will also appear here. Many people talk about the trauma and resources, events. People lose those resources; work, health, family members. It can be a useful way of looking at it, so we do not always relate to disease categories. [Holen: - When should I go a little further, this with stressorkravet. I have already emphasized that the degree of the objective event must have reached a certain threshold in order to count as a stressor. If we break up stressorkravet, we can talk about a component that is the threat. The threat to life, and become damaged. It mobilizes enormous. Extreme stress is a survival promoting our ability to run fast, jump high, get treat it as dangerous.]

11:05 Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - While the mobilization of the stress / anxiety, it also has long-term destructive consequences. In PTSD, this is it being left hanging for long. Threat torque is one of the points. The sooner an incident occurs, the greater the sudden public. The longer one knows about a hazard in the future, the easier it is to ask themselves. The effects of post-traumatic reactions become smaller. Suddenly the public with a bomb attack is sudden and the same with Utøya: It was sudden and unprepared. For the relatives, it is also an element of threat. They are located in the excitement, might see the news, perhaps, they have received messages. One finds oneself in an uncertain where fantasies hazards through the head, and it does something to the person.

11:08 Expert Witness, Are Holen, psychologist: - The second component of a stressor, it is to lose. The stronger the emotional ties to the lost object, be it people, location or country. The stronger the bonds are the stronger grief reaction be. Where there is family violence, family, blood ties, or where for other reasons are close emotional relationships of family-related art, the basis of full grief reaction will be present. The more peripheral connector as work colleagues, the grief reaction is not now such a high altitude, even if one is affected. Are we then witnessing, for example, in a threat situation, the others being shot or otherwise put into a situation that is dangerously so does you know that one's own imagination and empathy to be "what's next for me." Being a witness increasing stressor betaktelig, but to witness the same if you are not at risk is far less.

11:08 Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - As the close relationships whether it's for those who are threatened, endangered, or to those who are injured or die. The closer the relationship, the stronger the reaction. If we go to the diagnostic list, some have a stressorkriteriet. It is a necessary condition that the incident momentum are satisfied. It's simple. Other diagnoses that are relevant in this context does not have a stressorkriterie. Although they are event triggered, they will in the general clinical reaction, occur without strong stressorelementer present. (...) There are some rules we expect to apply, namely that the problems you eventually seeking damages for, debuted almost immediately after.

- Also, they will then be able to pick up over time. Also, to some extent if there is post traumatic stress, it will nevertheless some of the symptoms reflect what has happened. People think of moments, look, the voice of the joint. Other items may come back and forth. Something like that would be present, even if one does not reach what is called post-traumatic stress. There are two main elements, threat and the loss of relatives. There is another factor, related to the sense of responsibility. Many in this situation would have thought of this. His mother was here today, for example, "What if we had said that he would swim?"

11:11Expert Witness, Are Holen, Psychologist: - "What if I had gone there and not there." "What if I had taken another initiative and listened to it" and so on. So, These little things, They get a very guilty character of many and is a part of charge That Those Who were Involved Either Directly or overexposed Those relatives. I have already said That for the survivors to know That he was a violent death, it increase item the load. Again two quote something from this morning, "he was shot," it comes back in the morning all the time. "Think to die That Way." And premature death.

11:12 Expert Witness Are Holen, Psychologist: - Premature death Means you die as children or young, or early adulthood. We live in a society where we expect That All Shall person's garden its full life. There is an expectation That Citizens garden in the welfare instead. If we go back about 100 years, or two Other societies than our own, it is certainly not a matter of course. Based on the context in Which We Live, early death of a reinforcing element. I said That full grief reaction you get everywhere it is related That is torn away, and blood ties. Siblings, not only the mother and father. Of course, aunts and uncles AFFECTED, but They are so far out, That They Will not be included unless They have had a role as a kind of primary liability.

- A loss like that - it is never completely finished. It Lasts a lifetime. But the grief That Reactions are more obvious and prominent things, especially the last one to two years. When the circumstances are here, with the trial and the media are constantly reminders. Thurs come to terms with what has happened, two give up the slack, it takes longer.

11:16 Expert Witness, Are Holen, Psychologist: - Not everybody here got somebody who was killed fortunately, but some are relatives of injured and uninjured. For those injured, it was also a period Probably everywhere They lived in Uncertainty and suspense. "What's going on?" And That They everywhere a perosn in the family is injured there may be a usikkherhet for a while. "What's going on? How's that?" With the repairs Surgeons That Should Make sure They Will Have a normal functioning after wards. It requires That the family has supervision and follow-up on a practical level and what is the emotional strain. Previously, the research literature a little unclear Whether you Have a physical impact if there is an advantage or disadvantage, or plays no role in psychological Reactions. Eventually, it is indisputable That You Have Been physically damaged goodwill also your psychological Reactions are stronger.

11:17 Expert Witness Are Holen, Psychologist: - Winje also mentioned, When someone in a family is touched or dropped, damaged, React in unusual ways, as All other members of the family also AFFECTED. It is not unknown That the level of conflict in families who are traumatized goes up Afterwards. It also reducers the family's own ability to be the social support for Each Other. As I have said something more about the stressor. Winje Particular work through Their studies of the Surviving children and young people in Måbødalen, so he must say something about it. [Winje: - In what we call clinical picture, we find basically the same in children, adolescents and adults, and we use the same Diagnoses and diagnostic criteria.]

11:18 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, Psychologist: - That we will come back to the Age Differences in Reactions in the U.S. found severe Disabilities that 67 percent. It's a pretty high Percentage, and we see in other forskiningsrapporter too. PTSD was found in 30-40 Percent of the young. When doing meta-Analyzer, When Trying to turn the Various research reports, we find That 27 Percent of adolescents, 30 Percent of children garden Reactions significant. We also speak about the basics of safety to the environment and behavior. There is considerable talk about the Percentage in this trial, so I thought we 'd fill in with examples We have seen here.

11:20 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje, Psychologist: - Then we can start this with the older and young children. Older children Have a Greater Rationality. They have a great ability two two think things through and understand the context. We had a mother who drove into the government quarter with two historical Daughters in the car and She Came forward and testified about how a building falls down saves in front of retardation and scared the serious. And When They were Wed Their way out, no one was injured, but They were afraid. On the way home from Oslo, and here daughter says, "Mom we need two forgettable. We must never talk about." And the mother who was a sensitive and savvy mom said, "simply this Shall we talk about this We Will remember this is IMPORTANT. "

11:21 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, Psychologist: - So She exciseman Afterwards That the children had Been clinging, dependent, hard to sleep alone, hyperactivity. One of These girls were so opptattt off, she had a innlikk in anne nverden, namely, "If we had died my mom, my dad would not be comfortable to know us again," for so serious it was. It is a heavy burden put into two small children's lives. So, concentration and memory difficulties. It gives great results in school and study situation. Children and Young People Often goodwill hide, take account of mom and dad and Other members of the family.

- I overturned I Should add, we talk so much about PTSD, We have heard much about the criteria, but to give a little insight, I thought I Should give examples of what we've seen here in court. PTSD is, Among Other Things, a sharp increase item in tension in the body That does not go down. This Means That You are angry, scared all the time. Mon is tense, Fearful, having difficulty sleeping and concentrating and controlling emotions, a lot of spraying When the basement door slams and it takes a long time to calm the body down. You realize That this is the Symptoms That These people have to fight down bothering day and night, and is backed up Because the body is so tense.

11:25 Expert witness, Dagfinn Winje, Psychologist: - We are talking about invading thoughts and images and can imagine what is. In everyday life it Is That When red strawberry jam is no longer the best you know Because it is Reminiscent of blood so it says something about These pictures and the Reactions taking with retardation. One of the victims of Utøya Asked His parents "can operate off the pictures That I have in my head." That is what we call an invading thoughts and images. The damage is there. When bed time is something you fear, and not an offer rest and relaxation, but there is an opening for thoughts and memories and ideas come. Sleep problems in children, adolescents and adults. When it is no longer only if someone goodwill lie to you, we're talking about Intimacy, we are talking about bodies.

11:25 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, Psychologist: - We all garden bothering heard and read about it to be in the lap, and take care of, (...) it is clear That donation effects. (...) When you get scared, unsure how to React in large assemblies, on New Year's Eve, it is Among Other Things, The Fear That post-traumatic stress is all about. Many of These young people were moving into a politically more or less advanced career, what all traumofre talking about, and most recently last week, I found an article from the bombing in London. They feel so different than other people. The characteristics of victims of Other types of events. You Become a different kind of youth and adult. It is not always easy to find That one HAS BEEN different. Values, humor, interests.

- Depression is not very much discussed in PTSD, but this is what is all about Reactions. There are so many stops two make plans. They do not plan six months ahead once, Because the world has Become an unsafe place. So is it like that depressive thoughts fill you. This was the meeting is two get a glimpse of what post-traumatic Reactions may ask about, especially for children and young people. I give the word on.

11:29 Expert Witness, Are Holen, Psychologist: - Yes it is about readiness by nature two ensur our survival and That overreact and give us a burden. It sends us into battle, submission and you can play dead. Before I go any further, I want to go the court's attention to some of the Particularly young people and also Those of the Government buildings gift That Their testimony. Many of the testimony was Powerful and was impossible not to be AFFECTED by what They had two count. At the sametime They presented Them elves as strong individual, They show some courage, They show a face to the world and present restriction elves arranged in a way That Makes an impression. I will also hang on the comment That it's great.

11:30 Expert Witness Are Holen, Psychologist: - As if we encounter Other Parts of Their Way to be on, We Will Have a much more distressing picture than what we saw here. What I will say something about the future, are the people who took part in rescue efforts in some way. The professional crew, and as we are informed, none of Those in immediate danger. Stressorkriteriet is not Necessarily true for the restriction. They were overexposed two Grotesque scenes of injured and dead. They have based Their work experience seen things before. Hope Fully They have Established colleague support, making sure They get talked out of Their Reactions Afterwards. They have a professional shield. Nevertheless, there are the occasional victim privately. It may ask Because the girl is Reminiscent of my own daughter, and When under the professional shield. Can be mobile phone rings Suddenly, as it says my mom, for one who is dead.

11:31 Expert Witness Are Holen, Psychologist: - It may be he That Will Be reminded of things you garden Experienced That garden not Been overcharged as of this moment is Reminiscent of some of one's own and pull it away. Or it could be professional events That You Have Been up for, Which can be objectively tackled well, but elsewhere one feels one has not That stretched. So in some, this could frame, but it Will Be Essentially a lower risk than Those Who Directly Involved were. The same applie to the volunteer helpers, but some of Them were shot by, or could be shot for. It was the threat to life. They were two Witnesses Grotesque scenes while They were in danger. They may garden field the fear and horror.

11:34 Expert Witness, Are Holen, Psychologist: - They may garden taken the Difficult Decisions That Had to turn back as we heard the garden. And When The feeling of what I do now. In bothering These cases, bothering for professional rescue teams, one must look at the reaction and make an individual assessment. As for the volunteer helpers also meet the stressor criterion and simply the reaction When the claim as well. There may be Other, and here it may be That the law Think of a way and the psychology of thinking in a different way. Survivor Guilt. For those who were in the situation, These small choices help create two this sense of survival Guilt. "Why should I survive?". Conscience is good to have, but can also be irrational and, in some cases, the cast take thoughts That you really slipped away.

11:35 Expert Witness Are Holen, a psychologist - I took advantage of That I did so and so. And you can get into selvanklagelser for what you did or did not, as one of the two thought impose itself Should Have done. Even Those Who were not presented in the government building or Utøya may have problem with Guilt Afterwards. There, psychology and psychiatry garden compassion and understanding That They are suffering too, even if They were not on site. While the law might Want to Put Them outside. So I mention it. Then we come to the Reactions. We can continue, or we can continue after the break? [Arntzen: - When we take a break on that one half, for It has been a long session now.] Excellent.

11:35 VG: - The Right To take a break that 12.30.

- The court is set.

12:35 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, Psychologist - I will talk about the Reactions. Starting with a bit uakademisk questions about "how long is long?". How Long Will it take before things get better? It is always a question That comes up. I must say That the real long-term studies are rare. Professor Holen has done, I've done one, and it must be said That it is Difficult to Implement. But it is the knowledge we need.

12:37 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, Psychologist: - When can we just say we divide up the initial Reactions That are the first few weeks. Then come Those Who holder loading reaction from one week to One year. Long-term Reactions after three years or more. In Kielland studies in men, adults who work in the Kielland platform there was a rapid improvement in 60 percent. 1-4 weeks time. There was slow improvement in 15 percent. It is simply from a few weeks and one year's time. Then we garden Those with unstable flow. In some studies found That people fluctuating. You start at a high level of Symptoms as it goes up and down.

- It is a very vulnerable group. Because that's everywhere the music changes. Chronic courses That are stable, we find in 11 percent. When we look at the course in young people and parents, I studied with a child Psychiatrists, a year after the accident, 5, 10 and 20 years after the accident. Thurs Simplify IT, we found the incidence of post-traumatic stress disorder, in 18 Percent after ten years.

- And the data agree well with another long-term study by a professor in the United Kingdom Which found the same PTSD symptoms in children who had been on a sinking ship. Depression in young people: from 36 Percent 2:13 Percent had PTSD symptoms. No examples of what I studied, an anxiety That spreads everywhere. It did not occures. For parents, who lost bothering Their children and who had children who Survived, where we found PTSD in 31 to 25 percent.

12:41 Expert Witness Dagfinn Winje, Psychologist: - We have all the time an occurrence in the population of mental disorders by 20 percent. We must also take. Neither of the parents, we found anxiety disorders That were reduced, but They were so few. I used the SCID interviews Which is a systematic clinical diagnostic interview. So we will look that avoidance behavior. It's about people Trying to avoid situation, topics, themes, objects and people That Is Reminiscent of - and people who wake up strong Reactions in the body. We talked before lunch on a Greatly Increased tension. Traumatic Will people avoid it.

- It also allows the avoidance behavior is an IMPORTANT symptom two look for, too much avoidance behavior suggest That this process is slow. It is linked with high symptom burden. (...) It may take hours before They are put in place for some. Eventually, it covers all symptom criteria. Where They are too vulnerable, "I will never have to do with the AUF," or Utøya. And we garden in Thesen, Which was bombed by the government district, the great difficulty to return to the workplace. There Will Be an extra, and for some Excessive stress, to be there in Addition to the ordinary tasks. Unconsciously Convenience Order - this has Become so much a part of the person That this is automatic.

- We also garden something we can pull up at a higher level. They examined the victims of Holen school in Bergen, Which was bombed by aircraft in 1944, it was actually so That They could not talk about it Afterwards. It was our own That had bombed, and it was the environment. Future mentality was That We Should Mon up and move on Nearly 60 years after the accident, Those Who were 12-13 years When They were bombed clear PTSD symptoms.

- And That brings us to the society's avoidance behavior with respect to all rosetog and markings, something That the community goodwill move on and do not always Want to be held in this. Haste does not pay, history shows, if it Means setting aside of Those AFFECTED. Then I can name a few groups That You might recognize, there are war veterans, Holocaust victims, concentration camp prisoners, the Afghan vetereaner. And the victims in Beslan, elsewhere it is very well described how society and social conditions Affecting the post-traumatic period in a book called "Englebyen." We have victims in South Africa and South America That could have been better taken care of.

- So That it is shutting off, closing in, Either unconsciously or Automatically, by group or community level, is a must watch for and try two counteract the course. So, two expose the limits of the Situations That arouse strong emotions are an IMPORTANT part of the actions. The current available elsewhere PTSD, not the bereaved and Mourne. One factor That from time to time, live Their lives, the Notion of simulation, you pretend you are hit or aggrevering, you exaggerate betydnignen of the problems you have. An old hypothesis Is That They Call of vinningshypotsene, old times' psychological theory says this That Makes People to Achieve secondary gain; economy, attention or social benefits. (...) Winning The hypothesis is as a widow. I heard a AUF That victim was hit, and it was simply One That said, "I could well Have Been shot a little bit two make a few hundred thousand dollars."

- [Arntzen ash Winje two replace PowerPoint, the court simply can not follow what is happening on the screen) What the research shows Is That Those Who are seeking financial Compensation, They also have the most problems. It's a completely natural thing. The Applicant does not drop out of treatment more QUICKLY than others. And soon after the treatment also Afterwards. So this is not very well documented Theories.

- But it would be naive if you do not also think That there may be. We Consider it Unlikely in this case and That in Norway We have so much economic and social support systems are being AFFECTED less than if Catastrophic you live in a country elsewhere there are no public health insurance schemes. Where we are fortunately in That situation. [Holen: - When we come to the appropriate diagnosis. Initially, I recall That there is anything we mentioned Earlier garden. It is hours Relationships elsewhere most problems almost IMMEDIATELY after and it is a very small number who do not have problem first and get it seems.]

12:53 Expert Witness Are Holen, Psychologist: - So Diagnoses Those That Have a stressorkriterium, the first is called acute stress disorder. Where are the Norwegian and American diagnostic criteria somewhat Differently. The conditioning over a period of days or hours. Or it could last longer and go into a post-traumatic stress disorder. It has the American diagnostic criteria require the state That Should Have lasted for four weeks. All React IMMEDIATELY, even hung it again with someone And they are happy to leave it with retardation in the longer term. I think very many people who work with post-traumatic stress disorder-diagnositikk says four weeks or more. Post-traumatic stress disorder has three main components: Stressorkrav, Which should be above a terksel certainties. I will Clarify something I said in the City. None of the work crews were in imminent danger of Utøya, for They were not subject two shelling. In the government building, the situation was somewhat more Uncertain, Because parts of the building could fall down. (...)

- PTDS this has two re-experience and avoidance behavior When we garden gone through the physical Reactions. When you are gone for something like event. If someone were two put the diagnosis of adjustment disorder, it must be accepted. The most common reason for this is a Divorce or a breakup, you can set out from the reaction this diagnosis. Symptoms Will Be characterized by anxiety or depression. Is it very clear reliving one can fall down on post-traumatic stress, is not it, you can drop down on the adjustment disorder.

- So there are some non-specific Reactions and it is one That stands at the bottom of "persistent personality change after Catastrophic life events." It is torture or stay in konsenstrasjonsleire and the event for Those Who were Wed Utøya can Satisfy the criterion. Two similar the diagnosis, it is a requirement That it should garden lasted for two years or more. Where we are yet to come. While others can claim. So we built on the Diagnoses That can come after such events, but not garden stressor criterion. Depression. Many people have it as the most prominent symptom, while post-traumatic stress is less.

- If someone gets the main diagnostic depression Which occurred IMMEDIATELY after, it must be Within the area we call That stressorutløst. (...) A depression is a way to be pressed on. A person who is depressed may Have a mood characterized by sadness, not only last a day or two or three, Which is a state That extends over weeks and perhaps months. This sadness is of anhedonia, a gledesløshet. But do not enjoy it as a gift before joy, experiences. You lose energy, can not bear things, small things Become Big Decisions can be bvanskelig, you Easily Become more fatigued. It has not seemed two garden the energy get two things done, everything out heavy fields.

- There are different degrees of this. We have mild depression Which is somewhat depressed, but you are comfortable two Maintain contacts, work. But everything goes in slow tempo and feel heavy. So holder moderate depression Which is stronger elsewhere and They Might Be Unable to Maintain Employment. So We have Major Depression, Which is the deepest state everywhere you can not manage work and normal relations. So depression may very well be a result of being overexposed two such an event.

- Now we go over to the next as phobias. Phobic reaction, it is by saying That you garden an object or group of objects That EVOKE anxiety, agitation and excitement in you. In some cases, sharp objects, spiders and so on That can lead two phobias or it may ask the social situation. This Means we can sometimes say That something resembling the traumatic event can Awaken such a phobic character. Panic attacks, I distinguish Between anxiety and panic. Panic is mostly blind, and Suddenly thrown into one. It rises from nowhere two historical maksium in under ten minutes and Often have no known precipitating cause the least the first hour.

- And people Will Be very scared, and very Often think They have something wrong with your heart, so They act Often in Receipt of General Hospital. There is an activation condition, post-traumatic stress is about (...) to ensur survival. Panic Anxiety comes in something Great in people who are post-traumatic stress-prone. They may get panic attacks in the future. Generalized anxiety condition, it is the old anxiety neurosis, That You constantly worry about something something. Most of what happens Makes a kind of anxiety. What is stacking Is That you dread the most in life. It can also occures after such an event, anxiety disorders in general. Dissociative disorders, it Means to Connect from. Dissociation is the mind That Connects from the stressful situation and Becomes lethargic or experience things as unreal, as it happens in a dream or a movie or something like that something. A sense of distance to the situation.

- And Various degrees of dyssosiasjon are simply Often in PTSD situation. People who are subjected two torture can tell Often That They are outside the body. They see Them elves, it is not retardation. The acts were committed against Them. The two who were Witnesses this morning gift bothering an expression of shock or Easily expressed dyssosiasjon. They were outside by restriction elves. A sense of experiencing the world from a cheese bell. There is a description any user.

- But When we talk about dissociative disorders, it is not just a state of shock, but it is so strongly present That he does not remember the head of what happened. As in a mist. What was real and what was thought. Dissociative disorders occures more Frequently in young than in older, it is a result of the brain's way of reacting to. It is nature's anesthesia and conscious Influence happens. Somatoform disorders are body-like conditions, most commonly find That You Will people garden pain conditions in the body. Can feel pain in the neck, intestines, shoulders and back, Often along the central axis. Somatoform disorders are the mental reaction Becomes more embodied than getting some sort of mental design with signs of depression and anxiety.

- It is not Often occures, but it occures in some people. Neurasthenia is an old-fashioned term, but the meaning is clear enough. A state of bodily fatigue, you can not stand, do not garden energy, They say people are steniske That, simply, They have a lot of energy, one asthenic is the opposite, You Hang on neurasthenia, the nervous system so They do not garden chore. It was the diagnosis That I have listed. We have two take-Agreed, how depression and anxiety is most prominent PST. There may be Other Diagnoses as well, as some may Convention. If kritereiene Have Been Fulfilled, she becam ill shortly after and (...), it must be Assumed.

1:07 p.m.Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - .... as well made that it is a PTSD diagnosis, a triggered diagnostic Then there stressorkravet in relation to the various groups. So we will say that all that was in its ministries and its immediate vicinity satisfy this. All that was on Utøya, they meet the stressor requirement. If there is some mental condition, a health problem, and possibly an essential function, then there is what is needed.

1:09 p.m. Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - People who gave aid both those who did it as volunteers and based on profession, where it is for those volunteers stressor requirement clearly met and softer stressorkrav are met for those who have gone into in this professionally. They did not know what they went to, they've probably had fantasies and dreaded, but the death threat proved to be manifest among them. It is a stressor, but somewhat milder. For all survivors who are close familieralsjoner where the stressor requirement when it comes to losses met. Also for siblings who are part of the household in which one was torn away and pårørerende with and without physical and mental injuries, there is something more assessment that must come into play for the input people, but the wait time they have had, the uncertainty must be given a certain weight.

- When we have gone through what we had intended to cover and is thus open for questions and comments from those who might have something to say. [Arntzen: - Then I thank you both for this thorough review. There may be questions from the coordinating aid lawyers. Attorney Hallgren, be my guest.] [Hallgren: - A couple of things you have mentioned. This ethnic minority and the risk there. Several of those who were on Utøya had an ethnic minority background, while they have war trauma in their luggage. Can you say anything more detailed about this?]

1:11 p.m. The expert witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - Yes, we noticed it. It is also well maybe so that not everyone was Utøya had a strong and clear political commitment. Some came because it was a youth camp, a place you got to know others. Among other things, I remember some of those from minority groups listened to this. It was a way to get into society. They are vulnerable. They brought charges from the past. They have language, culture, values, things like that, it all plays together when it comes to understanding what items you choose to emphasize.

1:14 p.m. Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - When it comes to research findings that led us took it, it seems like that's the way it is. Minority Background about less access to resources, we're not talking just about economic, but its resources. Anything that can help to ease the condition in the future will make the processing easier. This is with a foreign culture, it is not always like that for everyone, there are exceptions here. The Norwegian prime real public is safe and we think that such incidents do not occur. Some of them come from that formed it may. Maybe they do not get the shock and stuff like that seen mobilizes set faster than the Norwegian does not have the background, but as a minority, one is more vulnerable.

- [Hallgen: - For some of these families are asylum seekers, this is an extra dimension?] There are quite a skuiffelse and dismay. "Here, too." [Hallgren: - This is responsible. Those who went off for any reason at three. There are many reasons that makes you (...). There is a large group who have not received bistandsadokvater. How does the type of decisions on guilt.]

1:16 p.m. The expert witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist: - They can get a sense of guilt and amplify it. I think I might have failed by having done or not done what I did. So, society has taken the position that I have not, so when I get my legitimate punishment. I will not be counted. So it can turn out bad. I understand that one must take a limit somewhere. But for some, the fact that it was too early is a way to jump the queue. Or that "I was there and saw the perpetrator, but I did not because I was heading away from the place. I should have seen it. " It is a magical mythological thinking that clash. [Hallgren: - You have explained a lot of research and one of the research you had done was Måbudal accident.]

- [Lawyer Hallgren: - When you compare the accident was a brake failure. The case differs from the present case that there is a perpetrator who commits a crime in a completely different way. Can you say anything about the results of the research is relevant here] It can very well say, but it indeed is astonishing is that the compatibility between different types of stressor and the stressor-like reactions, given that the stressor is high. But it is clear that the great psychological difference between being chased on an island with a man with a machine gun and sitting in a bus crash at 100 kilometers per hour. There are different types of trauma and the effects on the victims, we are now only people then.

1:19 p.m. Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - You ask about the numbers going forward, I will say. We have distinguished between man-made strong stressorerer. Bus accident is more of the latter. It is often slightly stronger reactions to those that are man-made, so we are considering it. Then you can say that Måbødalen add a bottom list and an event 22 July does not go under it. [Hallgren: - And what is their point, this is over the threshold. (...)] Yes, that anger is a part of grief and a portion of the reaction to threats. Culturally speaking, we do not accept so much of it. Anger as part of the grief we see perhaps more often in children, they become angry at why Mom or Dad is gone. In adults, we have a rationale. Anger is a reaction both.

- How ever shall be expressed, there is the need to be expressed, for the way it be said, "I've wanted to say, it's fair enough, but I do not." The fact that we have a law like this, expressing revenge, retaliation, anger, but in very urban and civilized forms, and it is characteristic of affluent society. So the verdict, compensation, all such conditions to affect all such forms of impulses and anger.

1:22 p.m. The expert witness Dagfinn Winje, psychologist - I would like to add that in our society we have left the punishment to society. This means that the personal piece of it is smaller, therefore it is also important that society takes care of this and do it properly because it is on behalf of all. The anger I would like to say that there is anything positive at all time. It expresses life and certainly a match even though it is also about injustice and betrayal. The forms can be selected, and the feeling to have an expression. [Lawyer Hallgren: - Time is an important element in you. "Time heals all wounds," it does maybe not, but it helps. To the extent this matter, if it is appealed, have you any thoughts on how it will affect the psychological damage?]

1:23 p.m. Expert Witness Are Holen, a psychologist - I think it is more just assumptions, I do not think that it will forevverre condition in some, but it will be a small sigh and groan. Are we through this. but it is more a matter of a discomfort than a trauma. [Winje: - Those who are severely affected, these wounds with it anyway.] [Hallgren: Those who have testified here have had physical injuries, while all those who have received mental injury has not shown up in the same degree. And what I believe in you, is that it will take many years for many in this case to continue living with the physical injuries. How can the community address this? How should we respond to this?] We must have an understanding of the different pace. (...) As a society we should not expect society to be oppdatt this as long as those directly affected. The pace of differentiation, they are abandoned. Then there must be other institutions that take this.

- Managers or support groups or voluntary organizations like the Red Cross, which has played an important contribution to the work. [Winje: - All major accidents in recent years has resulted in support groups, and they have an important function. There, they can grow their grief, but - and that's saying a lot - it's one of the few places they can laugh. It's about where you can do something under a common framework of understanding.]

- And it's something exclusive - not in the literal sense costly - to be exposed to a strong event. There are also so that you are not so well understood by anyone, but for those who share the experience. They can form an important community in supporting and understanding each other. The danger that may be applicable is that these groups can serve the aggressive and offense, and be concerned not only anger, but begin to run out to the community around them that no one understands us and no one is with us. If there is aggression in such groups have the tendency to jam. [Lawyer Hallgren: - Thank you, as I have more questions]

- [Larsen: I had only one question, there is a special group and it is they who were on Utøya and survived, but lost a sibling. They are both offended and have lost a sibling. Can you elaborate on this in relation to the group where?] First, have a battle on both stressors, they have even been threatened and lost. Now, not two plus two four in this sammehengen, but it enhances the reaction that it is like that. The terms of these, they have different stories to tell, but they may have made the choices I was on the spot, "I should have done this and should instead made her daughter." It is there, simmering, creating this sense of guilt, which is a bad thing to have. On the other hand, it is valuable in our people that we have a mother hem halt us. We take responsibility to escape blame. We can also make some bold hand is similar. It must often he help to get out of, if one is caught by the inner guilt accusations directed against itself.

- And get someone from unde can help to provide this, if you can not give themselves guilt-free thoughts. The thinking that "I did the best I could." [Winje: - There is also another side of survival guilt is that those who die are often heroes. Those who are left, feeling that it might have been different if it had been reversed. It is almost impossible to talk about in a family or a community. So where it occurs, I would recommend talking to a professional, instead of talking to my mom and dad about it.]

1:32 p.m. Expert Witness Are Holen, psychologist: - [Larsen: - So we got a question right now, and it goes on this with the offender and how he relates to what he has done. Without adding too much then it is a person who has confessed, saying that it was cruel, but necessary. Can you say something omhans relation to the victims] It is an attitude that collides with the people believe. We will primarily support each other in a society and not intentionally try to kill someone. It breaks when something there that evokes its own anger - your own indignation, not least that it is difficult to understand. I do not know if it plays as big role, many would like to see remorse and do not get it because they feel they have to act out of a necessity with a perspective few others have.

- And to hope for would be an element of remorse, as an element of reparation and reconciliation, should just give up trying to make. [Larsen: - And then, at last, this with physical versus psychological damage. What about the weighting of psychological damage, they can be more serious? It was a young boy here who said that the physical damage is easy to see, but it's hard with those who are physically unharmed?] [Winje: - Out of our reality, we say that mental injuries or just as a real physical damage. When we think of disability. It is not difficult to prove either. The problem should be easy to answer.] [Larsen: - Thank you. When I'm done.]

1:33 p.m. Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - Yes, thank you, then you are finished. If the defenders have any questions? [Grounded: - No question, but the defendant wishes to make a comment.] Breivik to get the word, but first we take a break to clock 14.45.

1:48 p.m. VG: - The court is set.

1:48 p.m. Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - You want some brief comments, Breivik.

Breivik take the word and start talking about that it is traumatic for him to look at how his country is destroyed.

The guards are closely monitoring it now. There are strong reactions in the audience at the Breivik said. Some leave the hall in protest.

1:50 p.m. Behring Anders Breivik: - Well thank you. It's good to have two experts, perhaps the two best in Norway to stress and mental disorders. I understand that it was counsel's testimony, but since two of the experts were in the witness box it was a pity they did not mention anything about the traumatic experience it is to attest that they are deprived of their ethnic culture and religion without getting to do something about it.

- And that traumatic it is to watch their sisters being raped by Muslims, their brothers beaten and hopelessness of the witness (...)

1:53 p.m. Behring Anders Breivik: - [Arntzen: - I make you aware that it was not their mandate.] I commented that they did not take up and that they should be recorded. [Arntzen: - They should not be taken up which is not in their mandate.] [Arntzen and Breivik talking at each other.] This case is about Norway's and Europe's future. The traumatic experience of being labeled as a right-wing extremist. These traumas that have occurred after prolonged harassment of right-wing. How many have been suicides in Norway because of this? Maybe 10, 100 (...)

1:53 p.m. Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - Now I assume that the presentation of evidence is over. [Lawyer Larsen: - I'll just say that we have the basis for conversation with the assistance of the lawyers that we will not lead director of the prison as a witness, we believe it has emerged in the media what we want to illuminate. We will not bring him] When we start at 14:00 tomorrow. We begin then with prosecution procedure. The court is adjourned.

1:54 p.m. VG: - The court is adjourned. Tomorrow is right at 12