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Anders Behring Breivik Court Transcript 2012-06-19 Live Report

Tuesday June 18 2012


9:01 VG: - When is the right set and the negotiations continue.

9:04 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - I was going to ask you some questions. I was going to go through some of the things you write about diagnostic assessments. I go straight to page 294, assessment of psychotic symptoms in observanden. You write on 295 at the end of the last paragraph. You write about the Knights Templar: The fact that he will run has invented a future vision can not be understood as an expression of psychosis. How the experts see it, he has always known that the whole idea of the Knights Templar grew out of his own imagination.

9:07 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - So you have a statement on page 211 where Breivik during a call maintains that the individuals whom he has described the Knights Templar really exist. You're with? [Aspaas: - Yes] So do you go on page 256, and then at the end of the penultimate paragraph. "In the description he has given of the organization are his own designs. The experts therefore finds no evidence to assess the organization delusions. " On page 262 at the bottom, "not the least idea about the Knights Templar appear to be peculiar. He rationalized this and explained that in the case of involuntary ideas. "

- So, I appreciate your comment on what you write here, in light of what he has said in court. That he maintains that he has traveled to Liberia and met a Serb, and then traveled to London where it was an inaugural meeting and so on, and he maintains that it is a cell structure with three cells in Norway and up to 80 cells in Europe. How do you this in mind that it is a voluntary invention on his part?

9:09 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Yes, I can say something about. As I was on recently, we have found no reason to consider whether the Knights Templar has a small kernel of truth, or if there is anything Breivik have found themselves. What we say is the design on his part, this stolslåtte organization which he presented in his manifest, or compendiums, and to police the first time. That there should be a kind pan European organization, and various estimates of the members and sympathizers, and how much damage that could be saved if he got what he wanted in a negotiating position, this large organization, we look away from. And so it is again not something we find it appropriate to consider, though it may have been a small core of people who may have had a common starting point or if it is not.

9:10 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - But whether it's a small core or Breivik have found this, there is a pretty big umbrella that is the size, scope and impact. [Judge Arntzen: - So it's who you are talking about when you say voluntary?] Yes, this powerful and wonderful organization, with honors and rank systems and a scope. [Judge Arntzen: - You have also affected this additional statement, that you were on recently.] Yes, and what we have been referring to the wording which is the same as we have mentioned. We do not assume that there has been a powerful, comprehensive organization.

- [Judge Arntzen: - What you write as well as the declaration that the basic ideas about the goals and structure is maintained, but stressed that the organization is being established, and his descriptions are suggestions for future structure. Are there any differences here and there who are in their statement?] It is not intended as such. [Judge Arntzen: - It is not a modification?] But I see there are other words but it is not intended as anything else.

9:15 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - And if this little kernel does not even exist. Does it affect their conclusion? [Aspaas: - No.] Can you elaborate on that? [Aspaas: - For our part, it does not matter if he has started to scratch himself or was part of an environment in which this occurs no style sprang from. Both can give rise to a structure as shown in the lecture notes and previous questioning. We know, if one assumes that this is only something Breivik has designed, there is a preoccupation of the Templars and Crusaders, and this, we know.] So I continue on page 295, at the bottom of the last paragraph then treat ye the political ideology that observanden have advocated. There you have accounted for well. Why have you not dealt with his glorification of violence as a specific point? As I recall it Husby was on, his excitement over the violence. He says it was a shame there were not more people died in the future there will be thousands that can be killed and he has given a picturesque description of a beheading by Gro Harlem Brundtland. I wonder why you did not take this aspect of violence?

9:16 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Now we are psychotic chapter, and discussion of psychosis and where is it that we have not seen the violence in themselves and the glorification of violence as a psychological symptom. It may be that in some cases, it is part of a psychosis, but the violence and to profess it, can not we see is a psychotic symptom in itself. What we have seen and think of another way is that to get to the right and decide over life and death, is to take a privilege. Taking their place in relation to regulations and all moral considerations. And to get to the right and create their own rules, we have seen a pattern of the business, here under hovdforhandlingen, "I do not recognize the right" and so on, and a trail we can follow on personality since very long time.

- And as he looks to the right over life and death, is an extreme on the axis. [Arntzen: - Yesterday you compared with the ML-movement, but it is comparable with regard to intensity?] To assert that violence is a legitimate instrument, we have seen. There are many other examples than just the ML movement around the around the world. [Arntzen: - When we come into my next question. Has the scope of action importance for the diagnosis?] We are careful to say that an action that is so different to indicate insanity. I'm not saying that one should never say that. There are actions that are so blunt that you have to look at the psychosis.

- We look at the actions as deviant, but that a terrorist act is a psychotic symptom, but it challenges us to look for psykotiskie symptoms. [Judge Arntzen: - We heard Husby talk about the physical reaction of the accused during the discussion of violence, you recorded it?] I would not say that I signed it. [Tørrissen: - No, I have no direct record of exactly what] What was tydeligfor us was that he told me about this contiguous, very detailed and very long as he has made to the police. And it was a kind of disproportion between the perpetrator and the description we have seen in the absence of strong emotions.

9:19 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - Also, I ask some questions about what you are on when it comes to discussion of the political. Can you elaborate on what this may be the primary? Now I'm in the policy section at the bottom of page 295 and the top of page 296 Can you elaborate on the relationship between what is primary, (...) his narcissist personality, the need to be seen, combined with the dissocial personality made intensive actions, you believe exists. Is it possible to say what comes first?

9:22 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - The first signs of personality development as we have seen, we believe came quite early, and the features we've seen has changed over the years. Most of narssisisme actions do not close this. And those with dissocial traits also acts, but nowhere near this. We see this as a political project, which started in the early 20s and evolved. We have a reference. [Arntzen: - Yes, come with the reference.] [Tørrissen: - It is from an article, it's okay that I read it englekse referaretet? It's "Gates of Vienna" and it is that Fjordman wrote this 1 May 2011, and I have internet reference to this here.]

9:22 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Quoting from the Gates Of Vienna] "I have increasingly come to suspect that Western civilization is not merely under threat, but that it is in fact already dead. It probably died many years ago; we just didn’t notice at the time. The West is currently in such an advanced state of decline that a collapse of sorts can no longer be avoided. The established momentum is too great, and the ruling oligarchs are not even trying to hit the brakes. A collapse will happen. It is only a question of how we deal with this, and whether we manage to carve out a good-sized homeland for our people afterwards."

9:23 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - This describes itself the Islamic threat and that society is about to collapse on the basis of the policy. There is a saying that "Fjordman" wrote 11.05.2011 and if we are to the "main stream" right-wing extremist attitudes or I can not place exactly in the landscape of the extreme right. This describes the basic thoughts that Breivik advocate namely that it must lead to consequences. "Fjordman" avoid talking about the consequences, but it is clear that what should one think about it do not get consequences. Should it fought with democracy, or other means?

- And as we see it, Breivik said in court and previously stated that he chose to go from the basic political view and into action. This quote is in a way right into the basic ideology of possible civil war. We have heard the political fagvitner describe this, and this is holdnigner that exists and is close to Breivik grunnsynslik, we see it. But then he chooses to do the horrible act he has done. We believe this does not stem from grandiose delusions or an alleged civil war that will be in the form of a civil war usually have. This is of course a lot of references to the future of the internet and Gates of Vienna and Blue etc. [Arntzen: - Could it have been an interaction, where his personality and delusions that may have seemed mutually reinforcing each other?]

- Yes, I would say. If you look at Erik Johannessen journal notes, he has a good analsye of just that. Where he writes, I'll see if I can find it again, but a good description of such interactions. [Aspaas: - We, as experts are cautious about making too strong hypotheses about why things happened the way it went. It falls outside our mandate and there are too many uncertain things, that many outside our field is as close to answer. It is easy to see it as a theme for many years to come, why did it as it went.]

9:26 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Judge Arntzen: - You said also yesterday. I drill as far as I can.] [Lawyer Larsen: - We would like to hear this quote from Johannessen.] If only I could get some time to retrieve it.

9:28 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Judge Arntzen: - Then there is the negative symptoms as you reviews on page 199 Then I wonder how you rated information from the mother. So those who were given during interrogation versus those that were given to the Husby and Sørheim] Yes that is, when it came to the withdrawal was not opposites here. Mother was quite obvious that she described the withdrawal to the game world and that it had worried her. She thought he should get a job and a family that looked like the fellow had. [Judge Arntzen: - Her descriptions of him from 2010, there was nothing contradictory there?]

9:29 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - What was special about the statements of the other zag cute, her interpretation, "he must be crazy, sick" - it was the kind of statements that, in contrast to what she had said at the first interrogation. "He was nice and farmer at Rena." She said nothing that he had to be crazy. It came after a few weeks. [Arntzen: - What hvar you put the greatest emphasis on what she said in testimony or information to the Husby and Sørheim] Enlightenment to the Husby and Sørheim was a kind of assessment, and not a matter of information. Shall we find it? What I have noticed, mentioned on page 8 of the additional statement, "he must be crazy" and is interpreted as entirely beyond. I think she was referring to political information.

9:31 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [The players are looking for call the experts had with the mother of Breivik in the documents] Yes, maybe if there are more questions about it. [Arntzen: - We can in itself make it in memory. I'm not going to go so thoroughly into it. We can possibly find out if there are more questions to it. But I understand you so that his behavior in 2010 conceived you that her interpretations?] There we perceive that her interpretation to find an explanation of what he had done. If I say anything more about this conversation they had with her, we have it? [Elgesem: - On page 73] There, yes - other sections you thought of?

- [Judge Arntzen: - When are the things you memorized. I was over in a matter of why you did not speak with his mother. It matters particularly in relation to that information, but also this change particularly strong from 2010. Even if it had had any impact to speak with her mother when she had the events from a distance.] We discussed what we should talk with their mother, but when we had come so far in the proceedings that we had talked a lot with observanden, and read many documents and information. [Aspaas said he is aware of her mother's demanding situation.]

9:34 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - We let it be. [Judge Arntzen: - When it comes to his functioning after 2006 is you disagree with the first experts on the severity of the functional change. You interpret it ....] How to understand funksjonsjendringen, we do not disagree that it has been. [Judge Arntzen: - But you will say that his functioning from 2006, it was age appropriate?] The course differed greatly from his peers and the "main stream" society. There was a withdrawal. For us, there may be many reasons for withdrawal. But it need not be mental illness. One thinks the depression, but there may be many other reasons.

9:35Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - The question is whether it is as part of the development of schizophrenia and the type tilbaktrekking seen in schizophrenia is the way our colleagues have described and interpreted it. We have looked at it another way. It can be difficult for us to see that the sitting down to play in one to two years, it is a very prominent feature at least for someone who is 25-26 years. But when you look at the contents of what he does, I will then show to game the witness, he is not alone in doing it that way. Play The witness was younger than he, but this is probably a much bigger problem than you can imagine for many of us. I've heard a figure of 10 million who play World of Warcraft, many people use considerable time on it, as young people, in 20 - and 30-years. Observanden once said that he played with men in the 30-40s and he heard that children were present, and that the father said "hush" and continued to play. One can not draw from this that there is a schizofrenisk form already.

- But we can look at it as a tendency to gambling. What I thought was strange, was the concept of martyrdom estate gift, and whether the term came prior to 2006, or afterwards when he wrote the manifesto. I'm not sure, what order things come in. But such activity 16 hours a day at such a level do not we as a functional decline in schizophrenic form. Then we go blåboka to see descriptions. And it does not we will vote. [Arntzen: - What is described in which] I can bring out the blue book to describe the negative symptoms. Let's see ...

9:38 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Page 82 And a little general, from page 82 as characterized by the fundamental changes and that this affects as changes in thinking and perception of inadequate or blunted effect. In particular this with blunted effects that characterize schizophrenia. That does not mean - as Husby / Sørheim was BRAZZY .... one can easily have a good cognitive understanding and not have an impairment in thinking and being able to perform the task. But to the extent that he can perform the task, we find little consistent with schizophrenia. But we do not say that he may not have had it. There are exceptions, and we can not be cocksure and say that because he has planned and game, he has not schizophrenia.

9:40 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - But there is a more nuanced reality. Some may have it and can manage both to plan and execute tasks. But we see it is a very complex thing, it shall be governed by and will affektflathet weakness that means that there are problems and willingness to perform well. Being able to sit 16 hours at a stretch is in a way, it's a characteristic that he manages very large capacity for work. Now that's one thing that one can not say that he has not. So there are several things that suggest that this has not been a negative development of symptoms of schizophrenia. [Aspaas: - So there is this with apathy, which is how the behavior is pointless. One is unkempt and neglect personal hygiene and taking care not to anything. It's hard to say that it is described some apathy from this game the witness]

- [Aspaas: - If there is a requirement? Apathy is one of the items mentioned in criterion H on page (...) It is typical of the kind of tilbaktrekking we see, but there is no mandatory requirement.] Yes, I have found. Then we are back to the personality and some features may be enhanced. Then I can demonstrate:

- [Reading from Eirik Johannessen's report] With regard to the patient's probable narcissistic needs, may have originated as attempts to compensate the social loss and failure experiences in childhood and adolescence. The descriptions of the patient from friends and acquaintances who have come forward in the media, differs significantly from the patient's own self-image and perception of achieved performance. Typically, people suffering from such problems, where the aim is to increase their self-esteem through being admired by others and themselves, in some cases, be aware that they engaged in a self-deception to exaggerate their own achievements, talents and influence. l other cases, they create the illusion of the exaggerated self-image which they can not see or understand how others might disagree with this, given that other hidden agendas of their perceptions. The social and economic failures patient has suffered in his quest to become famous and admired, may also have caused the patient corn to a point in life where he has little to lose, which would nurture increased venture called. With such a starting point to more extreme political and voldsforherligende environments could further make the patient more dedicated and focused and contribute to the severe personality disorder develops further in a destructive direction.

- Previous experience also suggests that the patient is willing to take extreme risks to the success of their projects, and he refers to himself as "risk pervert." The goals seem to be wealth, success and admiration, which the patient has failed in his previous efforts, and how his own high self-esteem far beyond the impression friends and acquaintances have of him. This may have made the patient vulnerable to being deceived and exploited by a "mentor" who may have helped to build up the patient's ego even further. Whether there actually exists "mentors" are still highly uncertain, but will hopefully be uncovered by the ongoing police investigation. It can also be speculated whether a complex jealousy issues also have an impact on patient hatred of AUF, when much of the Utøya represents joy, unity and commitment, are factors that could be protective against the destructive personality development the patient seems to have gone through.

9:44 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - And it's a good description as we see it, but naturally enough, it is difficult for us to go into the cause and effect. It is not part of the mandate. [Arntzen: - It is the closest we get, as you see it?] It will take quite a long time to sit down and write an analysis. It also depends on you having a conversation with him, as Johannessen had. In notes from DPS Bærum, he responded honest the SKID-II issue there than with us. They obviously had a relationship of trust that made that he was honest there.

9:47 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - But it would be like Aspaas says, be written page after page about this here. We must relate to the mandate if one falls within 44 or beyond. [Judge Arntzen: - Then there is the overall assessment of their. You say that there is certainly proven hallucinations, delusions or thought disorders observanden. So I wonder how important is the observation of this assessment with you. If you had thought of forcing the observation away had there been the same since?] [Aspaas: - At the time of the forced observation beginning, we had our discussions of our findings and the information we had. We started in the way that we discuss the problem areas. "Here is something we have to find out more."]

9:47 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - View other references in the police documents and shed light on how he had explained this. So we began to discuss how to understand this. We were eventually diagnostic discussions. We had made us an opinion and was very excited, they see something different or the same? We would probably say the same without observation, but we say it is much safer when others have seen the same thing.

9:48 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Arntzen: - So the absence of an observation team from the observation of psychotic symptoms consistent with their observations?] Yes it did. [Arntzen: - Okay. Was it something more, Aspaas] No, no. [Arntzen: - Also I wonder, Tørrissen, if you just briefly say something about this SCID-test significance. You said it was a supplement and not a requirement in ICD-10. Can you explain if there was a supplement or whether it constituted a part of your methodology when you had conversations with Breivik?]

9:49 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - It was part of the methodology in the form of that I was already aware that the validity of these diagnostic tests was poor. You can not ask an open question. Most often, in a normal patient situation you get an answer that you can work on. You can pursue the inquiry and reach a common understanding. SKID was as an aid. SKID-I, representing symptom disorders, and SKID-II, which represents the personality disorders have a structure that makes it easy to follow. The vast majority of symptom disorders and other disorders, we have an idea why occur. Sometimes it's nice to have a list too, so you do not come out of something and get it all.

- These interviews have arisen as a professional standard of quality with a wide consensus in the environment and should be used initially in research. Then one must have precise formulations. You can not make up their own definitions of it. It is as an aid and supplement the system used. So you have to gather to discuss things. Whether the paranoid delusions .. representative of the civilian police undercover car a situation or observanden thought it was just a coincidence. So you could say that it was not a paranoid delusion.

9:52 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - So this is a tool for structuring and it was. So if I were to say that this was a valid study, it would not have been. (...) There were structural reasons. [Aspaas: - One can add that the questions posed in a SCID-interview, to each question was asked in a normal interview. However, using the method, you ensure that you do not go astray, and it follows immediately visible tracks.] [Artntzen: - Tørrissen, it means that in your conversations with Breivik only followed these questions, or were there other Questions?]

9:52 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - No, there are many other questions and free calls. He ruled the parts, I let him talk about what he wanted, as we all do. Sometimes I said, "I have to clarify anything, please tell me about this?". Thus, normal two-sided clinical, let the other respond and methodically. [Arntzen: - So I wonder if you can turn up in Husby / Sørheim statement on page 228]

9:53 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Judge Arntzen: - This is where we have this account of 228 It is the review of their findings for the criteria for paranoid schizophrenia. "When it comes to perception and control, as exemplified by the feeling that observanden know what others think." Did you have experience of similar nature?] We have been on the same subject, and he has told us that he is good to understand what others are thinking. He has experience in sales, and is good with interpersonal situations. We asked him: How do you know? He has much experience with people, see how they look, talk, see the background, he is good at placing people.

9:56 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Aspaas: - We have not been able to prove anything mystical or supernatural in it.] It can be given that the descriptions that he is as good as he is can be seen on the way he says it and shows a high ego, selvopphøyd and grandiose that he is one of those who are good at interpreting all the possibilities. It is perhaps somewhat exaggerated. [Judge Arntzen: - But not pathological? You have not concluded that there is a morbid form of human knowledge?] [Aspaas: - No, we do not. One example that has been is when he met Berntsen was a policeman. So does he have an opinion about what Berntsen thought, and that now he realizes the police jargon is not genuine. The kind of things.]

9:56 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - [Aspaas: - It has been discussed up to very specific situations.] Then we have the criterion B - "Persistent, bizarre delusions, exemplified by the idea that he is participating in a civil war where he is responsible for to decide who shall live and die, and expect to power in Europe. "On page 293, where you have a script loading for psychoses such reviews you concepts, as you say in the middle of the paragraph:" The bizarre delusions defined psychotic ideas about phenomena that not physically possible. "That they should not be physically possible - where have you this physically impossible from?

9:58 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - The description of the bizarre is not evident from diagnostic system, but it is discussed in textbooks and there were some professionals here who describe it as it goes against the laws of nature. It's my words in the preparation of this brief introduction. However, similar to that found in the literature. It is also the description of this with bisarrt, that it is contrary to the laws of nature and is culturally unacceptable. There are examples in folklore as the dispute with the laws of nature, but it is not bizarre.

10:00 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Judge Arntzen: - For the definition that you have taken from others bissart have you on page 257 "A bizarre delusion is about a phenomenon that individual's subculture in no way will be regarded as credible or possible."] Where can I add, what is the definition contained in SCID1 interview. I can mention an example of bizarre delusion. I was approached when we worked on this, and where he believed that observanden had operated a "chip" in the back and was ruled by their culture - I think it was from the CIA - that it was the whole reason why he could do this.

10:00 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Tørrissen: - That he should have implanted a chip that actually he ruled over Central intellingence. It's a bizarre delusion.] [Arntzen: - So when Husby / Sørheim writes that Breivik said he had a vocation - it will be a statement that may fall under the bizarre category as you define it?] It is difficult for us to consider others' assessment. But whether a call should be considered bizarre, I will not say required. We talk about calling in a religious context, and many use it to describe a very strong urge or a project that is their very heart.

- [Arntzen: - So is it .. We continue on the criteria of Husby and Sørheim on page 228] At? [Arntzen: - At Husby / Sørheim, yes. The criterion F. "Thought-out or hunches, exemplified by occasional perseveration, associative speech and neologisms." When it comes to perseveration, it was something you observed?] We observed something similar. I think of the trend we saw in the first call, came back to a stereotyped policy wording and accompanying examples. And an example that was left was the bombing of Japan, which must have saved many lives. Another example that was left in this stereotypical rhetoric, this is the election in 2009, where it was dispensed unrest in Paris and how observanden believed that this had not been duly cover in the Norwegian media and that this was to avoid the FRP was to make a good choice.

- It is a typical example that came back. We have seen things that come back, but not the kind of repetitive "chop-in-plane-way" of talking. [Judge Arntzen: - These neologisms, we have quite a lot about his neck. But word of comps, that you have written that do not usually regarded as neologisms. In which case, word comps considered neologisms?] Then you have to look at the specific example and see what the person or the patient adds to this. Psychotic patients can use ordinary words in a way that does not correspond with the common use of words.

- As we then realized that he put something else in the word than is usual. Word comps may be neologisms. [Judge Arntzen: - But the use of the word and word-setting is crucial breast] Yes. [Judge Arntzen: - You mean the word of the sentences were not breast-feed for the neologisms used in the context they were used in]

10:07 Prosecutors Inga Bejer Engh: - [Straight Psychiatry explains that they do not watch Breivik's reorganization as neologisms, but rather words that he has composed himself, and he can explain the importance of. Many of the words are also used in political circles, he considers himself as a part of.] Breivik has used the word "armchair general". How do you understand this word?

10:09Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - A word about people who talk about politics, but not doing anything. I think it was easy to understand. [Arntzen: - So you were yesterday under their explanation in the fact that you, after hearing Breivik testimony in court was in doubt. I would now like to know why you were in doubt, a detailed justification for it, and how it was cleared off the road?] [Tørrissen: - As I said yesterday I was a little ... Do not put out .. Or it was a dikrepans between the expression of emotion he had, and all witnesses and victims and reading the autopsy reports, where I observed that he was able to maintain its facade. I thought "how is it possible not to get something to express when it is possible when we saw this video. What is this here for nothing? "]

10:09 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - And without necessarily ... this with psychosis in itself ... gotta be open and think that there may be a bubble, there may be things that make you have to consider things differently. So it was an open question. Could this also represents an inner world without us getting any part in it? I thought I should just try to figure it out. The only way is to talk to him. In court, he has a very different facade than in Ila.

- You will meet two different people. So I asked for the meeting to clarify it and when I meet him as I have met him earlier right. As I have met him in interviews and during the observation. He says the same thing the same way and the same rank. He is clearly oriented to time, place and situation. He explains what he did and why he does it. There is no delusion and he explains what impression this gives to him. So the conclusion that I have seen and heard with my own ears. This does not represent psychosis as he takes on the attitude and the way. He says that he meditates in order to endure the hearing. He thinks it is terrible all that appears. These personality traits that show a lack of understanding for victims to come forward. The assessment will be exactly the same as when I met him in February and March in the talks.

10:12 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Tørrissen: - So the conclusion is that one can not see any signs that he has the basis he claims he has his political ideas. What is true or false is difficult to know. But it did not reach anything in contact ability, pointing to psychosis. The conclusion is that he was like before, not psychotic, but their rationale as to why what happens happens.] [Arntzen: - Are you in doubt on their conclusion that he is not psychotic?] It may be noted an academic question. We have no criteria to establish with certainty that a psychosis does not exist. It is the same way as police work, do you have proof that the Knights Templar do not exist? The answer is obviously no. Similarly, it will be with us. It's a hypothetical question, which will always be there, in this type of work.

10:14 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Arntzen. - When you say hypotetisik doubt, according to a theoretical Fie] l Theoretical doubt. [Arntzen: - Contrary to a practical question?] Yes. [Arntzen: - Yes. I believe that I should leave the word to prosecutors. Be so good, prosecutor?] [The prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh. - I think I can start where we left now, so we take a break and then we go on. The last thing we talked about now. I refer to the judge. She's bored and when I continue to drill as you understand. To address the latter, that after one or two weeks in court, you had a need to talk to Breivik because you wondered if he was psychotic. Was there a doubt, both of you had or was it just you, Tørrissen] [Tørrissen: - It was initatilt I thought so, but as we talked together and he said you can make that meeting you, we do not need to be smammen . But it was basically I thought that here, but we have two experts and must be allowed to ask different questions.]

- [The prosecutor Engh: - When exactly is the question to Aspaas. During the first few weeks, you had the same thoughts as Tørrissen] I did not think the same as Tørrissen then, but I think it was nice that he examined it closely. What I noticed was the attitude we saw in observanden the first week. Especially when there was talk about the first statement. The attitude of the Husby and Sørheim was characterized by a certain suspicion. "You want me bad, why would you do that?"

10:15 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Aspaas: - That I think is the expression of personality traits.] [The prosecutor Engh: - It was paranoid personality stretch] [Aspaas: - Yes.] [The prosecutor Engh: - What I understand you Tørrissen is when you got a doubt it was up to the defendant's lack of response that we saw in court] Yes it was most response patterns and the lack of empathy. There was no expression, that was the primary. So I thought that it is possible to mistake it is possible to see things in new pages.

10:18 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Engh: - What you saw in court, then, had not seen it before?] Yes, I did, but you must ask the question if you have motforestilinger against what you have done. I think it's okay to get it. [Engh: - I understand. I realized that the conversation was in the basement in this house.] Yes. All four defenders were there and it was recording the conversation. [Engh: - How long did the conversation?] 18 minutes and 51 seconds. [Engh: - The surroundings were perfect to go for a good conversation with Breivik] Breivik adapts to most chat rooms. I do not think it plays any role. [Engh: - What was he fortate you who did that you were no longer in doubt?] I saw the other side of Breivik that you do not see in court, and not many others have seen, namely upåfallende. But once he walks out the door, there is unequaled to everyday topics and appropriate behavior. [Engh: - But lack of emotions, what was it he said that reassured you?] It is soothing in itself that a man can have such feelings. It was expressed in a similar way as before. It came to a description of empathy that he has no contact with reality. Empathy failure shows he is equally present in the basement as here.

The court takes a twenty-minute break to clock 10.40.

10:20 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - Apart from that being said with a jovial smile down here. [Engh: - I understand that the observation you made in court was a lack of emotional response. Did he say anything down there that was different than here?] He can give a description of what happens to him. He has done it in court as well, he said "it was awful." It is outside the focus of all stakeholders and media, and then it becomes a slightly different feel. But no essential difference as I see it. [Engh: - But what was the reason why this conversation changed this? It was the same følelsesavflating in the basement that right?] When it's been a few weeks so it is not so very strange for me to ask any questions of what I intend. [Engh: - I understand, but what you say now is that følelsesavflatingen in court is the same as in the basement. But there are some qualitative differences in what he communicates to you in the basement and what he conveys in court?]

- [The prosecutor Engh: - Were there qualitative differences between his communication of his feelings for you in court and in conversations?] No, it was not. [The prosecutor Engh: - What was the reason that you no longer had doubts after talking to him?] It went on the appropriate ordinnholdet. That there emerged something that makes me change the perception of the diagnostic assessment. That it remains unchanged.

- [The prosecutor Engh: - When he says to you that I think it's awful and it seems cruel, it is something you rely on?] We touched upon this yesterday about what one thinks it to rely on it he says. It is a technical representation of the concept of empathy and you rewrite it to be about the overall. Has he had a deep empathy with others, he demonstrated it in a completely different way. But it is being operationalized language and runs only in a sentence. He says something that he .. [The prosecutor Engh: - So the one thing the two of you agree on is that it is empathy failure] Yes.

- [Arntzen: - I have a oppfølgingssør to the end. You said that you suspected that he was in a bubble, or that he was encased. Was it with the bubble possibility in mind that you went down to the basement?] It's just a verbal utrtykk I use to say, it is psychotic character, something happens in his head that we do not know about? Something that the governor thought process in the psychotic direction? It is more an oral presentation manner. It is not a technical expression. [Holden: Considered the conversation in the basement in the light of the issue of dissimulering] No. I did not consider the side of the case. He appeared before. [Arntzen: - Then take the right break to ten over half eleven.]

10:22 VG: - Right now break until 10.40.

10:42 VG: - The court is set.

10:44 Prosecutors Inga Bejer Engh: - You must answer who want. A brief account of myself. As I understand it, you conclude that Breivik was not psychotic 22 July. But you conclude that he has one or more personality disorders and that you assume that there has been no essential change in his personality at any time.

- And that the traits we see today have shown a persistent pattern of life. So I assumed that the Husby and Sørheim think there has been a personality change and it has happened after 2006. And the assumption is that the person we have here today is not the same as we have described from friends at the residence. Then we agree on the division. Then I wondered if you could say something about what is it that characterizes a person with dissocial and narcissistic personality traits?

- When I think of little interaction with other, close relationships, jobs, crime. Can you tell us about it? [Aspaas: - If we add up diagnostic list?] When I'm not thinking specifically of him, but what are the features ... I understand that a personality is deviant behavior from an average individual. [Aspaas: - Shall we begin with narsisisme] I understood it so that you find both. Say a little something about the characteristics of both personality deviations.

10:49 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Yes, if we start with the narcissism, it is characterized by grandiose ideas, great in its own importance. More than perhaps others will think. Magnificent. And have a desire and a fantasy about having to achieve something great, breømmelse, power and a kind of access to høystatusområder. [Engh: - How will it be this one with the desire to be with others or alone?] Narcissists like to reflect on the second to get feedback from others on one or the other way.

- And the desire for admiration. There may be many ways to achieve it, it can make in the form of joining an idea or movement or live in the glory of other great people. And especially pronounced this to feel entitled to sit out the rules and regulations. [Engh: - Is this what you were talking about that rule-breaking behavior?] It can lead to rule-breaking behavior, the others will park there, but I can park right outside the door.

- And can thus be exploitative in interpersonal relationships. And empathy weakness. Often, envy and arrogance. Now I have mentioned all these areas mentioned in the American DSM system. All must be met. Now I have mentioned in this index. They may have problems in some situations because people think they are great. Some may even go far. [The prosecutor Engh: - How are they socializing with others?] They can be festive, fun and popular to a certain extent, but they can take much space.

- And you can get in exploitative positions, so they get rejections. Then they can turn on and become hostile when it is put an end to special privileges. When they encounter resistance. There are many ways to meet mostand, from the projects do not succeed to anyone taking the word and say, "No, listen here." [Engh: - What makes one with narsisistiske move when they encounter resistance?] They can be unreasonably angry, or have depression or have reactions. [Engh: - How this plays into the close relationships?]

10:52 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - It can be difficult a challenge in the long run. [Engh: - What dissocial traits?] Then we shall find it. Then we go to the ICD is the current system. [Tørrissen: - It is important to note that personality traits are a wide range. Some have overlapping character so you can find empathy weakness and treachery of narcissism and there are no clear boundaries. It's just that DSM will have it so or so. But it is an artificial division and we must have the breadth and understanding that you can have a little different from how you interpret it.]

- In continuation of it can be said that there are degrees of this. It can be easy degrees which is under the cutoff to call it personlighetsfortyrrelse, and over a border that creates problems, it may be a personality disorder. Dissocial personality disorder are specified in diagnosesytemet of criteria A through F. irresponsible attitude, ignoering of norms, rules and obligations, problems in intimate relationships. Not difficult to establish the relationship, but to keep them. Letter D, low frustration tolerance, and E, the lack of experiencing their own guilt or learn from the judgment. And F, tends to give others the blame or rationalize. There are criteria.

10:56 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [prosecutor Engh: - These criteria under the dissocial personality disorder from the AF provides a description of the characteristics of this type of personality disorder. So, in this case been a lot of questions about their report versus the whether the general conditions of personality which has given the Commission two letters] It was particularly the Commission believed it was not demonstrated any features in children - and adolescence. [The prosecutor Engh: - As I understand the Commission when they testified it was based on the premise that lay in the statement that you gave an account of yesterday]

- [Engh: - In the statement you made yesterday, have you added any new discoveries or is it the same findings?] The same findings. There have been no nøyanser in court, but not essential for diagnosis. [Engh: - You have konkudert that Breivik since his teens persistently demonstrated aberrant patterns of thinking, actions, feelings.] But we are reminded of the criteria that the moves have not been fully developed in adolescence.

- [Arntzen: - I just interject there, so we have these three criteria clear to us before we go any further. And then the general criteria on page 319 in the report. This is a summary of the general criteria?] It is the short version as it is on the Directorate of Health website. [Arntzen. - Under the specific personality disorder: The first character is expressed in childhood and youth. So we gar narcissistic personality disorder in DSM and there is a persistent pattern that begins in early adult ages and manifests in many contexts. And I have noticed that most of these personality disorders is that the pattern established in early adulthood. Can you say something about the characters in the ICD, we have clarified what is required when will it begin?]

- There must be a feature of youth or childhood. [Judge Arntzen: - There are persistent. What is here is a character is that it must be persistent. Do I understand you right, is a sign, the same as a move. So something must be persistent. Do it in that case have appeared in childhood or adolescence?] Well, I was a little unsure. [Aspaas: If I clarify this with DCM and that it begins in adulthood. Personality disorders must have persisted for at least two years. Adult age starts at 18, and one should set a limit of at least 20 years before you begin to diagnose the personality. Before, during childhood and adolescence, one can not diagnose personality disorder.]

11:02 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - It is the first. As DSM reflects that one begins to talk about personality when the criteria are met, and then depending on what type it is. But it refers to early adulthood there is an established pattern. So it is that personality does not need to be very stressed in the early years, so I can give an example of people with unstable emotional traits or personality disorders. One sees it in acute psychiatry that someone enters ii early age. Someone with less severe disorders can have crises that makes its debut at age 25.

- When you then go back and talk to the person they have had problems for years, but it has increased, often with a recognition that there is a problem in interpersonal relationships or in themselves. Abuse Situations that makes it difficult to relate to themselves and others and creating suicidality. It is the general. As we have seen observanden, we have primarily looked at the criteria in DCM, and we score he SCID. How he stands, how he is in the clinical encounter? Our research is mainly to say something about how a person stands. We see a person with a grandiose sense of self. Other professionals have used narsisisme active as a concept. He uses it to and with yourself. When a person is even greater (...)

11:06Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - That means he also there has moderated. Probably strategist to curb it, but when you meet him he has these traits. If we look at the history, how long has he had this, so we can look at the compendium that is full of descriptions of a large ego and status and so on. How should he be seen historically? And yet when you look further back, so we have vitnebeserkiveler of his employees, I can find reference to it, which he describes a little bit of a storhetsidémessig way. Then we have to interrogate friends and acquaintances. And when I talk about narcissism in itself. There are a number of observations that he has had some major self-esteem. So he stopped at the school with the reason "I can do myself, I need no education, I shall have great stuksess in business", which he managed with norm-breaking behavior. When we are over the dissocial. A yearn for success, fame is a character that has been present from early on.

- Before 18 years of age, exactly, we do not have good descriptions of puberty from sources other than himself. He says that he was best in class. But his description from the children and youth should be taken because it says something about him in a situation with others. Was he the best in class? Represents himself as better than he was? We have obtained grade books. Had he been the best in class, he would have been at 5 -, 6-level. But we can say that there has been a continuum of youth that he has had these traits. How he was in childhood and adolescence. His narcissism has increased over the years.

11:08 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - And also refers to Johan Essen on page 154 where he tries to give an explanation of how an increased self-esteem comes about. When it comes dyssosialitet we have not very much from the child - and adolescence there either, but it is especially this with the lack of boundaries. Had we only had it - some descriptions from children - and ungdomspsykitatrien, this with tagging, driving drunk during moped - and later not had some things had been difficult to say whether dyssosialitet. But when you have the story in adulthood, the norm-breaking behavior and irresponsible attitude of the rules and obligations have been consistent. An example that has not been up the Liberia-trip.

11:08 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - What if this was a business and only that? Would it indicate that in 2002, he was in the norm-breaking behavior. Here you can buy diamonds and earn big money on it, probably with evasion of tax. (...) It is not what we are trying to do, but refine it in such a way that is more fundamental. We do not focus on the actions, it is true or false, but we look at the basics of personality-related, that a person may claim that he does this more or less deliberate. [Aspaas: - I wanted to clarify this with the characters and moves. Everyone has personality traits. But most are within normal tolerance. Signs of a personality disorder, then we come to what is in the diagnostic criteria lists.]

11:12 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Engh: - I was going to start with the basic criteria of what you said about Breivik has grandiose ideas about himself today, and it also appears in the manifest. But when it comes to his grandiose thoughts today and in the manifesto is well you and the experts Sørheim and Husby agree? I guess the question whether there are changes or if there is a pattern. What I am interested to find out is: is there a pattern, or is it something that has degenerated over time?] It is a move, but in some sitausjoner can have a stronger expression. When we feel pressure to increase the paranoia, it is quite common. When he writes something like manifesto, and I think he is more brilliant than most, I think it's a natural reaction when someone comes and says, "Now listen here, it is perhaps not so well written." But the basic attitude when you meet him, as he moderates. But half an hour afterward might have plump into the water with grandiose features. He can not keep up. He will be regarded as grandiose.

11:13 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [prosecutor Engh: - He was regarded as grandiose in terms of what has portrayed himself in the compendium and after 22 July. But what I'm going to is whether he has had these features before 2006?] I think I shall refer to witnesses who were here. The friends who have described him as did 29 of May. The first witness. [The prosecutor Engh:-Was it he who had known him back to Smestad school?] It was the first. More pretentious than others. Did not care what others thought. Next in line. Self-centered, spend all their time and money on what he is busy. off. Concerned about himself and his temper quickly.

11:14 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Number three, "not quite A4, stubborn, stands on its own if others think otherwise." "Tunnel vision when it came to business." We have a number of features mentioned here. How strong they were hard to find second hand, but it's a part that resembles narcissism. And observanden has confirmed it himself that he was silly and vain. However, the strength is difficult to know. [The prosecutor Engh - I was wondering this because of the criteria. One must have fulfilled the basic criteria to go to the specific. I have interacted with ICD-10. I see that there must be three of these to be met from the AF.] [The prosecutor reads out one of the criteria]

- If we start at A, I think that we can start with the features that I restored from adolescence yesterday gjengvirksomnhet, vandalism over a longer period of time, bringing a weapon when he went out, krenkbarhet to incidents involving Muslims. [Engh: - What are the events?] They were the ones he read out in court, if a garbage bag in the hall and so on, and things that the character of violence, but many were insignificant. [Engh: - What about feelings? Since we have concluded that there were persistent (...).] When I think of this is to systematically threaten other children, for example. But we know this less evident from the age. We know it more clearly now ... [Engh: - But what about the emotional life of adolescence?] What we do know is this desire for revenge and that to violate others' feelings, gangs who frighten and threaten others. He did not need to tell it, when we had not known it.

11:19 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - And we have the portrayal of how he behaved at the arrests, a certain self-righteous hands. [Engh: - Thinking about the arrest of the terrorist act? How oppførtse he then?] He continued to stand on her. I think of when he was washed up on the bus stop, and he was still what he had done. It was good that when used community money on this, and could not give money to the PLO. He was tough and not yndmyk. This is so far little episodes, each of which does not weigh that much, but for us it looks like it falls into a pattern. [Engh: - What about the period after he left school and lived in public with your friends?] It seems to have gone well, but there is no conflict there. But where was he to deal with ... When we are down to the way of thinking. A right to carry on the side of society as he did. He thought he had a right to evade taxation, exempt income and more and more offender behavior.

11:19 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [prosecutor Engh: - So the persistent aberrant patterns in action, do you think of tagging, how he responds that he is being taken and this black business with Diploma Service?] Section A contains a broad understanding of what which is usually present. It does not say that everything must be present. For example, impulse control, aggressiveness, he has perhaps shown at certain occasions. But he has shown good impulse control. One can not place it-in this box and say that all things must be fulfilled, but we have to look into some of these.

11:21 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [prosecutor Engh: - What I'm wondering when you konklunderer that there are persistent aberrant pattern of behavior in his actions, what are you building on?] Just an additional comment, the dissocial structure his is apart from empathy failure are great, they dissocial nature of the deviations are not very prominent. There are degrees of personality too, so his main diagnosis is narcissism and it is probably well above average. But the structure is weaker dissocial founded. [The prosecutor Engh: - So I have a couple questions for those items you mentioned. Tag None of his we know about, but I was wondering about this since he bothered other children. The declaration says that he did so by virtue of being in "Skøyen Killers." Have you considered the truthfulness of what he tells us where?]

- No, we did not have other sources have told something about "Skøyen killers." [Engh: - He has even told the court that based on radikaliseringsfaktorene vitnprov here, largely, do not share his view of how this was. Have you done you some thoughts on how it can be, true or not?] If he exaggerating? We have no control over it. When evaluating things that happened 10 and 15 years ago, they are very vague. There is a problem. And we need to consider the judgment. [Tørrissen: - There may be an exaggeration, but it is not certain that it is.] [Engh: - So I wondered this with krenkbarhet. He had responded that someone had written a bad word about him in the yearbook. (...) Do you give that this is a krenkbarhet that goes beyond a normal youth in this situation?]

- Well ... If you read the letters he wrote to the child welfare and stuff, we have not cited the very detailed, so you can see a quite self-righteousness out of the ordinary. [Engh: - But I think of this with the yearbook, I'd think it would be insulting if someone had written nasty things about me in the yearbook ..] it is shown in politidokumentee, in a flippant style, but it triggered the need to pig Christmas something we can wonder. [Engh: - That the need for a Christmas pig, it's something he has told?] Yes, he said. And he also told about the time "Skøyen Killers" glorified Muslim criminal gangs in Oslo at the time. A glorification of those with prokriminelle attitudes, then.

11:24 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - We have heard him explain it. I would like to put a little bit. If we get a new track where we go from situation to situation. Can you verify, you can validate, you can sit here and repeat. But when you meet Breivik is krenkbarheten very present. When one begins to discuss the use of sources, Wikipedia. When there has been talk about a period in art history. It turned out that one of those observed had great knowledge of this period. [The prosecutor Engh: - That he is krenkbar today is something we are all familiar with, but that he was krenkbar before, is that true?]

11:26 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - We have seen traces of it, but it illustrates a known problem that in fact such a cultural difference between the right and the clinic where the court thinks what you do to bring down a verdict. And the clinic think of a another way, if the information is that it traps judgment it is not. It's a classic that the court should explain the risk assessment for previous violent behavior, says the court that "it is a judgment that says this?" If not, then we do not focus on it. In the clinic we relate to "smoothed" to the documentation. [The prosecutor Engh: - But my relationship is to find long-term pattern. But I have to ask the questions up against it]

11:28 Prosecutors Inga Bejer Engh: - We have had these friends here. Many have described him as tolerant, never picked a fuss, enjoyed being with him. In their statement referred to him as "kind and caring towards their nearest." How does that fit into dissocial traits? [Aspaas: - We do not see the typical impulse control failure. Otherwise, we know that personality disorders would turn out different depending on the setting and situation.] Now there was a theme during eksaminisasjonen of the friends. You asked how he reacts when he is the opposite. One of the best friends said when we asked critical questions, he answered simply elusive. Aspaas then asked, "How did he react when he is contradicted?" His friend replied, "He is not angry, but suspicious."

11:31 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Engh: - Also, it was the best friend's girlfriend who said the question "did you see him counter-arguments? Did you talk to him? ". She replied that they "gave clear arguments, he was not angry when he discussed, just eager." Then there's this friend, the first witness, who says that "he was furious and angry when you tried to say something about his virkelighetssyn." But I have noticed, we had gone over to questions about how he was after the insulation in 2006. He "sankket just about ideas, he was angry and his own ideas the right thing." This is what I have registered myself with how he reacts to the resistance.] It is the only description I have ever heard. [Engh: - Does it matter to you that it was after 2006?] No, not really. [Engh: - So I wondered this with soisal dealings with others. We have heard that he lived in public and for those who have made it so it can be utfordredne at times. How do you interpret the description that this was normal and that there was nothing to fault with this?]

11:31 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - He has worked normally in many situations in a safe environment. [Engh: - What normally ungdomsliv, go out on the town, partying, drinking alcohol?] There is no contradiction in having a personality disorder and go to town. [Aspaas: - There is a lot of normal descriptions.] [The prosecutor Engh: - So I wonder this with the job. From 1997 to 2003. He was well liked by colleagues, conscientious, focused on the job, he got the office. Do you have challenged this, that he has done such a good job that he has advanced?]

11:31 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - No, we have assumed that he has been good to work at that age. [The prosecutor Engh: - The deal with others around him] Good at it, yes. Do you think that there should be opposition to having a personality disorder?] [The prosecutor Engh: - No, but a persistent pattern of deviant behavior] Yes, that's it. You are not abnormal in all areas. [The prosecutor Engh: - What areas is he different in adolescence?]

11:36 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Aspaas: - Yes, you mean now 20-years of age?] [Engh: - high school career and this collective.] [Aspaas: Yes, what we see is that when had started their own firms with extensive use of the black economy. There is a pattern we have seen in many years. We have heard about these krenkbarhetsepisodene to Muslim communities.] Having narsisistiske move will likely only strengthen the ego. There is no contradiction between narsisistiske moves and have a leadership position in itself. [Engh: - How did you experience the interpersonal situation?] We have no detailed description of how he met people. But we have no reason to believe that he did not have the trait at the time. It has not created significant subjective distress. Most often it is for others to notice that: Oh, he is devaluing or high on himself, and pulls back a little. (...) But it is only a clinical extrapolation of it. (...) But youth or early adulthood. Those who face such things, just pull back. [Engh: - But these friends do not pull back?] [Aspaas: There is no inconsistency between having personality and to manage the job and have a network.] [Engh: - The report on page 271, where I have only Some spørsål attached to it.]

11:37Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Engh: - As I understand that you then from point one to seven has gone through various conditions that meet these criteria and believe four of these are true?] Now we are ..? [Engh: - It starts on page 271] [Tørrissen: Now is described DSM-IV criteria and it is in the SCID-2.] [Engh: - I read from the report. In adulthood will sign dyssosisal personlighetsfortyrrelse more clearly. He bullied other children and went over to tatgging. But over to adulthood. During one point, inability to follow social norms, it is shown to the public and business activities appear to his breach of statutory obligation, auditor liability and the black economy. But then we go down on point two, deceitful lies and chronic unøykatighet, then show you again the relationship to the tax authority. Then evaluate the I, it is unproblematic to use the two terms?] It happens that some features are captured in several terms, and it will be the second worse in the ICD-10. These points here can fall into several points in ICD-10 system. It can probably be difficult to place them in a while.

11:38 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [prosecutor Engh: - I understand that you are using this in relation to the IRS. If the business. Is there a problem? [Aspaas: - Business Operations is multifaceted and diverse.] To set up a life, in many situations that the facade appear as pure business, but in reality is something else entirely. It is clear that one may have used an argument a little too much? [The prosecutor Engh: - Have you done this?] It is not always when you write a long statement that one is able to reflect on whether this is 100 percent so and so. So we come with the nuances, maybe we thought wrong, there's also why we have sold it to the ICD-10 in points. [The prosecutor Engh: - When I see here. Sections 1 and 2, 3 are met, point 4 is not met, Section 5 and 6 see fulfilled.]

11:40 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - It can probably be discussed because it is limited in time. [The prosecutor Engh: - The point related to a terrorist act and the planning of the], where we discussed where we were maybe ... that we met that criterion, it should have been sown more doubt. But it does not matter for the main conclusion. But it is the modification that we do because we read it again and get feedback on how the law sees it. Malt said it can not be linked with 22/7 and it considers that it is not correct. [The prosecutor Engh: - Ideally, he met them before they complained of actions] [Tørrissen: - It means that we modify and think and where I went into the basement]

- [Engh: - But when you say that you have been in discussion about ringakt for the safety of others, the uncertainty related to (...)] What is an assessment issue for us is that he has planned this act call for a long time . Then the attitude been present there for two years. [Engh: - But we see signs of ringakt for the safety of others before 2008?] No, I do not think we do. That is why we are discussing it, we have been in doubt. [Engh: - The last factor: Lack of remorse, and tend bortforklaring I understand that it is linked to his politisike vision. Is that correctly understood?]

11:43 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - Yes, basically. But we can draw the threads further back. He showed no remorse towards E Comerc Group. The economy has been based on black all the time and no appreciable remorse all the time. He said on the contrary that this is a good strategy and great to do. [Engh: When you said earlier remorse, it is linked to business and tax evasion?] And this with blood diamonds in 2002. [Engh: But who should he show emapti mangledne and feelings in those cases?] [Aspaas: - It is of regret, not only emapti. Is all about blaming others. There he cut a long story to say that politicians and reporters and the dispositions they have done. This with the authorities who made the rules for how the fertilizer will prdosuerer ..] [Engh: But it is now, when he talks about the terrorist attack?] [Aspaas: - Yes, but it goes back in time during planning. He says among other things, that "had it not been that difficult to manufacture bombs, he had not been forced to perform shooting based operations," for example.]

11:43 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [prosecutor Engh: - But what about before planning?] When he talks about the political project that has taken time, and refers to the part specific incidents where journalists and editors if they had covered events such and that, released to the extreme right, this would not have been necessary. [The prosecutor Engh: - You think that points 1 and 2, relating to accounting and the black economy. And beyond that point are 2 and 7 for the preparation of terrorist attack. Is that correctly understood?] Yes. [Tørrissen: - Then it is important to translate what we have in ICD-10 are met, so we use it as a basis: the failure of empathy is not present and that we believe are fundamental. The fact that he has no well-developed empathy.]

- [Tørrissen: - Norm-breaking behavior, irresponsible attitude he has shown over many years] [The prosecutor Engh: - When we are in this with the emotional connection and empathy. When you consider him now is empathy failure linked to everything he is? Or is it related ITL actions on 22 July is the distinction?] We have examples that he appeared thoughtful and helpful in a number of occasions. [[The prosecutor Engh: - He asks if the questioning does have it and so on] There can discuss whether run deep, if there is something more than courtesy and good manners.

- [Engh: - So I wonder this with empathy failure and lack of empathy with others in the past. How do you ex-girlfriend of his best friend who said, "He saw us and was interested in us," and we asked about how he experienced the support of the accused then. Do you have any thoughts on that?] When we refer to the Malt has described, in which people with this type of personality, they can be considered charming. Now, I thought in society. [Engh: - I think he described the defendant as a man can seek support from a difficult situation?] The cover is not totally uempatisk in all situations, it is right there.

11:47 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Engh: - So I was wondering a bit ... Over the narcissism, it is included in the declaration on page 269, and then I understood it that way, it was probably painted that was inside of it, that we have no clear diagnosis for the batch in Norway - he had to go to the United States. We used the DSM-IV, there is no ICD 10. [Engh: - And then it was you, Tørrissen, who had come to the moves we've seen before 2006. For what I am concerned, there is a change or there is a persistent pattern of the greatness of thought? And then I'm a bit looking for: he had grandiose ideas about himself before 2006, so as you see it?]

11:47 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Yes, I think we are. For example, saying that he clamps no formal education. He can read articles and Wikipedia and acquire the equivalent of three bachelor's degrees. [Bejer Engh: - I understand that there is information that he comes now.] All information is information we have now. [The prosecutor Engh: - Is there a situation like that distinguish what he with his grandiose ideas seem to remember from the past and what is actually the case?]

Engh emphasizes that grandiositeten now appears to be violent. Breivik smiles when he hears this, and continue to take notes. Besides leaning Lippestad back in his chair and takes off his glasses.

11:50 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - We have the testimony of his best friend through describing the pattern, GUC for economy and success and he did not need education. There are 17-18 years old and he says that he believes that business ideas and his empire, he is perfectly well yourself. It is because narcissistic traits. Since then, he has rationalized this to get three bachelor degrees and had 15,000 hours of study and all this here. It's something that we have now, but witnesses say it. His employees of E-Commerce Group says something about the greatness of his ideas. Combined with what we have seen in the observation and used a wider perspective of the manifest and WoW and the way he says how good he is poå. Yes, he was real good, but there are some levels above. The move of grandiose ideas. It is the strongest trait is his narcissism as we remain under the dyssosialitet. We do not have as good or strong indiaksjoner through it.

- [Engh: - But is it right to fortå, to determine whether there has been a change, you are dependent on information from other than vedkomne itself, which has a grandiose self-image?] One has to distinguish between normal personality change and personality disorders. We do not assume that there has been a change from one point to another, but we believe we have (...) [Engh: - But there has been a qualitative change in his self-esteem along the way?] [Aspaas: - It has probably been a trend in potency.] [Engh: - Now it is the more fiercely.] [Aspaas: - Yes, and it has probably been fierce for quite some time. (...) What we are talking about now, illustrates the one point: The further back you go with this information, the harder it is (...) Torgersen was on it when he gave the other personality. If one is to add the most stringent standard of proof applied, has no personality disorders.]

- When will the 10-15 people who are diagnosed, they will become a marginalized group in the end. [Engh: - Before I go to a new theme, so I wondered a little ... I understand that if we hold fast to dissocial and narcissistic traits, that before 2006 you forankerer his dissocial traits in adulthood against this company Diploma Service. [Aspaas: - Norm-breaking behavior.] [Engh: - Norm-breaking behavior, yes. And it is assumed that his experience of the environment in which a non-violent person. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on the development of his dyssosialitet? What it involves? You describe a man who is breaking a rule, but non-violent. But within the same period, he liquidated 69 people on Utøya. Do you have any thoughts on how the dyssosialiteten change?]

11:54 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - What is special is that it is as planned. What distinguishes him from others with dissocial personality disorder is that he is good in impulse control, while many others are bad This move meets he's not. [The prosecutor Engh: - It is a long step from doing black business and what he did July 22 Do you have any thoughts about what happens on the way?] There seems to be a trend that is about the political project taking larger and larger space. The objections are fewer and fewer.

11:55 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [prosecutor Engh: - Do you have any thoughts about his dyssosialitet get this extreme outcome on 22 July until the end of twenty years with him?] [Aspaas: - No, we can not explain the timing.] [The prosecutor Engh: - Is there a problem in any way] It's not trivial how this came out in. It's all agree that it is a very dissocial action in itself. Planning, execution and later rationalize that it has the right to do. It is extremely dyssosialt. Another thing that I've been thinking a lot about during this process is that it is taken up how can this type of action done by a human. What is it that makes it and who Aspaas says we have not really clear explanation models on this but one explanation is that when an act of terrorism committed there will be a need to exceed it.

- I think that there is an element in this. Breivik thinking, "I will make the biggest operation ever." He has in a way clearly. (...) Is an important way of thinking, and it can also be attributed to narsisistisk, grandiose thinking, "I will certainly do." But we do not have very good explanatory models of this. This actually requires regular contact over the years so we might find the answer. [Engh: - Appropos contact, the police have explained how he behaves in this questioning, eksemplarist. (...) As we have seen how he takes correctives here in court. I just wonder how do you think about it ... you were just built on it ...?]

11:57 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - I think we have to go back to where we were before, that we think probably not that the descriptions contained in the current diagnostic system captures everything we see. We have seen exactly the same as the police and the others. He is friendly and polite, and it is atypical. [Engh: - Atypical for someone with antisocial personality disorder?] Yes, atypical, or there is unexpected, then. [Engh: - We who have been in court has been many who have been dissocial ..] There is much that is not typical here, totally agree.

12:00 Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [prosecutor Engh: - So I wonder a bit lately with it that he isolates himself or stay away in a five-year period. Is there anyone you headed over to a person with clear narcissistic traits, with the desire to be seen and appreciated?] One can imagine that this grand idea KT covered some of the narcissistic need. [The prosecutor Engh: - Over such a long time?] It's strange. [Tørrissen: - He could satisfy their needs in terms of feedback on how good he is in playing WoW. He has had extensive contact network. The section is poorly lit, considering that you do not have access to the facebook account. The fact that he is applying for other than its previous environment, why he said not to them?] It is an inexplicable thing, but we assume that he has met their needs, facebook, and later in the stage of planning and construction.]

- [The prosecutor Engh: - It's only a matter before the break. It was this that he has shown a tremendous concentration and determination in at least two years. How does that to a person with antisocial personality disorder. The standing so long in it over time] People with dissocial features are not identical, they have some common features. We're back to this that he has not been impulsive and he has been patient and hardworking. [The prosecutor Engh: - Is it unusual?] It is common to be impulsive.

12:01 VG: - The right to take lunch at 13:00.

12:03 Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - But again I must emphasize that the dissocial structure is weaker, we see clearly that and we discussed between us that it is not the most prominent, but we see traits and especially at this with empathy failure . (...) I think he is weak empathy. [Engh: - Does that mean that he is experiencing it as real as you say, Are you tired?] I'm not so sure it sticks very deep. (...) I can not say, that's it. [Engh: - I have some questions that are on a different theme. So you may want a break now?) [Arntzen: - How long have you back do you think?] [Engh: - One hour] [Arntzen: - It must of course you have. I had hoped today that we can finish no later than four forty-five.] [Engh: - But this is the question we must decide, so I hope we can have plenty of time to ask our questions.] [Arntzen - I understand it very well, but we need time for the defense, legal aid lawyers and the court's members to ask questions. When the court takes a break at one o'clock.]

Terje Tørrissen was grilled about the extra meeting he had with Breivik in the waiting cell at the courthouse. Here you can see this part of the questioning again: #! Id = 54196

1:01 p.m. VG: - The court is set and the negotiations continue.

1:02 p.m. Behring Anders Breivik: - I regret that I interrupt. I know that the law is not so happy that I used the contradiction, but can you be so kind and put in ten minutes later in the day? [Arntzen confirms that it must also be arranged.]

As Aspaas and Tørrissen agree its report, explaining they also together. It is set up an extra table next to the witness box where Tørrissen sitting, while Aspaas sitting in the witness box. The two have both laptops, notes, their own report and the so-called blue book in front of him on the table.

1:05 p.m. prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: - When we are over the new theme that we have not come to the namely the question of possible psychosis. The hanging in the air a little bit left for me in place was compared to what a delusion is. On page 293, the judge's questions, there were questions about the bizarre and non-bizarre. Where you start the "there are conditions that are contrary to the other regards as genuine. Ideas on surveillance and persecution, that the body decay and change, and unrealistic ideas about their own talent. "What I want is for Husby and Sørheim and you have a different understanding of what a delusion is?

1:07 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - I do not think we have different academic refaeranse. But everyone has a problem when one should define what is reality. There comes a subjective opinion in the end. In the daily clinic, we have an approximate relation to what is real. [Engh: - But one must be wrong intensive actions be unrealistic?] We distinguish, as we have looked at two types, bizarre and physically impossible, and those who are physically possible. Typically, surveillance with cameras or microphones. It is entirely possible. [Engh: - When we let it go. Several people have pointed out that the four of you are counselors and advisers of various diagnoses. Then I wonder a little, paranoid psychosis, F22 has been discussed a bit. Witnesses have said, to meet the criteria, it is not enough with one isolated delusion. It is somewhat the opposite I read out of blåboka. What vision do you have in a delusion for F22?]

1:09 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - We can say. When you ... Thus, it is sometimes the case that some groups may predispose more to get a paranoid psychosis, an F22. One with personlighetsforstyrerlse ground may under certain conditions develop a vrangforetilling. Delusions of persecution is most common. Typically a male recluse who lock the house and turn off everything, and whoever moves into the property is there to steal or have been in the house and taken some things. It's a classic case of F22 without any basic structure (...), but a single case where one has been inside the house without the votes. But you can not affect the person in any way.

- The notion and it's smooth transition when it becomes more serious. [The prosecutor Engh: - As it glides over from F20 to F22?] Now we are talking exclusively about the F22. We must distinguish the two. An F22-diagnosis characterized by the structure and behavior are preserved in a number of ways. You can shop at the store without it results in a delusion. There may be overlapping of paranoid delusions.

1:11 p.m.Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - So it can be a gradual transition when you should define which one and when you should define as two, when it is in the same complex. Paranoiditet is can be a lot of areas, two or three maybe four areas and then you have to say that they have there, there and there. How did the other lifestyle. Can he still go to the store without him there feel threatened, then it works still. These disturbances can take the upper hand and with the feel of a real threat of being monitored or prosecution in a way, then it can be an inpatient in acute psychiatry.

- And then, it has typically controlled so much of life, for it is difficult for them to clear the way for themselves. But when you have calmed down the situation, this can go a little back to the initial forestilingene. Paranoid psychosis is difficult treatable with antipsychotics. But it is possible to treat, and then try. When it comes to it with F22 and up against the criminal law. Is there a single delusion that seems minimal on otherwise functional, it tends to pull out of 44 with the 56 C range. Then I can only say what is done around rettspykiatrisk practice. How much does this affect? But if I'm not sure it will fall under 56 c, and the court may decide, to decide whether it will accrue to the defendant for good in a criminal case.

All this is precisely the crux of Breivik is sane or not, and the two expert pairs have come to different conclusions. VG has published the two expert reports, and you can read them here:

1:16 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Holden: - Tørrissen, I shoot a query by extension. What distinguishes a narcissistic personality disorder from a grandiose delusion that fall under F22?] The usual way of touch with reality or reality shortcoming. When there is a popular description of the questionable reality, is up against psychotic quality. However, in forensic psychiatric sammneheng requires more than that. Touch with reality can have on a number of psychological characteristics as well. A delusion will be with ... So Husby and Sørheim beksrevet have grandiose delusions, but we find in the quality of touch with reality to him. [Holden: - What is you can not find the touch with reality?] [Aspaas: - I can say it is a very typsik distinguish from delusions of non-delusion, it is that delusions are usually stable. And delusions are usually very ukorrigerbare to arguments and confrontations with reality. But what may be grandiose ideas or other ideas that resemble delusions will usually fade when exposed to confrontation or argument. It is a typical difference.]

- Another thing that is typical, when you have a delusion and is a little corrected, the idea to assume a different dimension, for observanden'll try to explain this to us as therapists. It can differentiate to some extent, but would like to take another delusion. Then it's the quality that is at the entrance, but we try as best you can modify them.

1:18 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Tørrissen: - That it is consistent over time, you can not convince ..] And there is a delusion, it would in many situations trigger and bubble over so that the environment reacts and thinks about health care that here there is something wrong. [The prosecutor Engh: - So we have had some talk about the defendant's cognitive abilities, and it has been assumed by the experts, his cognitive abilities intact. Both Melle and Malt was in court and asked the question of whether it is consistent with a diagnosis of F20 to have cognitive abilities and act rationally. Are you agree with it?] Yes, we can stop it with normal cognitive decline to a greater or lesser degree, but there are examples of subgroups that have intact cognitive abilities. [The prosecutor Engh: - So we built on today on negative symptoms as it is on page 228 in their declaration]

1:21 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Engh: - As I understand it that you talk about this on purpose weakness. Let's see, page 258 Could be that I have misunderstood, but you perceive it so that the first two experts found a Symptoms Colds in the weakness of the will?] I think it is very difficult to assess the other's assessment. I feel more comfortable with me to answer for our own assessment. [Engh: - But on page 258 you say that he has not intentionally weakness and suggests that this is not a psychotic illness. Is that correct?] Yes, that's right. Everyone agrees that there has been a withdrawal. The question is how are we to understand it. [Engh: - Do you have to have such a weakness of the will to have a schizophrenia diagnosis? No. [Quote from the diagnosis list] There are alternatives. [Engh: - So this withdrawal in 2006, as you interpret differently. It is a voluntary isolation from his side?] [Tørrissen: - We see that he probably has been more hooked on the game than we've seen for us. When we think of the documentation that has been off the game log and diary-like writings. It may have been a major element of gambling.]

- [Engh: - We had him play buddy is a bit wrong to say, but he played with. He explained why he had started playing and gone into it. Do you know anything about games madness? One is there from being a talented person over night, or is it complicated why people take that option?] I am not a specialist in gambling and why it occurs. We have related to the criteria and not worked on it. [Engh: - It states that he was less intense and lost life-sparks. Do you have any thoughts on what they describe?] You are pale from sitting inside all day and not go out into the fresh air ... [Engh: - But what I understood was that he became less intense and more quiet?]

- He was dismissive and they asked questions about depression. But what was the question again? [The prosecutor Engh: - If we choose to sit down, he has removed himself from the ordinary social life and his plays continuously. Do you have any input on the mechanisms that take place?] [Tørrissen: - Now it's proven that he has played before 2006, but there is testimony that he in 2003 had a common interest in 2003 for betting. WoW came in 2005, so he played other games before, but not to the degree. So he comes over in the stage where he has tried WoW in 2005, 2006 before this year and that he made a strong interest in the game.]

1:24 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - And then he started. We know nothing about it has been a gradual transition or just transition. But for us it is important that it is a social withdrawal to a very social world in a different context that is difficult to understand. When you look at the level of activity I have seen on the criteria F63.0 which is gambling. He would possibly fulfilled the criteria. It is often linked to gambling, he has never been interested in. Then it must go on the mechanism to want to play and keep going. I checked this with the game pretty closely, but one should listen to the young assistant doctors who have it. I asked in general about the games he plays a lot of yourself.

- Assistant doctor, too. My registrar. He put me into this world of World of Warcraft: What is this game? The purpose was to get a description. So I went to Breivik, and asked questions that were controllable: Was it true that the guild was 40 or 25? Breivik had a full view of all the qualities of this game, maybe even slightly above the doctor's assistant. Aspaas: - I think I should add that we as psykiatre have the tools to explain all human choices. [Engh: - They are the only ones who think so.]

1:27 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Engh, As to the Knights Templar, you've been on it this morning on the judge's questions. And I understand that you have not taken a position on whether there is a core of people who have met the defendant has explained?] When you've got it right. We have no information that makes it possible for us to consider it. [Engh: - I do not need to repeat what Breivik has said about Liberia and the London trip. But if Breivik think that this is how he describes in court, but that it is not like that, it has some bearing on how you consider him?]

1:28 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [prosecutor Engh: - That he has been in Liberia, in London at this ordineringsmøtet, if he believes it, it has some bearing on how you consider him?] There is a hypothesis, is not it? We're back to the point of proving whether a delusion is not present, it can not. [The prosecutor Engh - I say to you that we assume that this does not reflect reality.] When there are several possibilities, that he imagines it, or lying. it has not we methodologies or expertise to say. [The prosecutor Engh: - If he imagined it?] There we can not know for sure if he has found the story or if he is lying. [The prosecutor Engh: - But how shall we deal with non-verifiable information?]

1:29 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Yes there are quite on the general work our way that we can not come up with studies that show that something is not present. A delusional if he has met a Serb, we can not tell if it is present. In this case it is not as I see it a fact, but an option where the other is something he might do. [The prosecutor Engh: - As an alternative, that there is anything he can find or what he believes?] Yes. [Tørrissen: - But we are of the opinion that we think like we do. It's like if you say, that he has been in Liberia without having been there. Then we had to go after the seams, then there must be a delusion]

1:31 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - But we are just there that we think any thing about it is having a psychotic quality and we do well in the direction of either, he found an organization itself, either at the time then or afterwards, that we have no ability to control. It is perhaps not directly on the veracity, but to us seems not to psychosis. He claims one thing and another. (...) [Engh: - Is it because you can not with certainty can explain the fact?] [Aspaas: - There is more than that. What he has said about the Knights Templar is more than that he has met a Serb in Liberia. There is a huge construction. When he is confronted with huge construction, shrink it, it is not typical of a delusion. One can perhaps make it a half hour of the Control Commission, also shrink it afterwards.]

1:33 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - And it is a part of this complex here. So you can say "yes, why does not he say that everything is nonsense if everything is found on?". There may be many reasons for this, not to lose face, selling the idea on to recruit, as he said himself. There may be many explanations for it, but we emphasize his ability to relinquish a fairly comprehensive idea and it does not fit well in a very psychotic picture. [Holden. - If I can go a little further on this so that we can understand it. I thought we could use the example that he has told us that he was at the meeting in London and got 50-60 pages of chairman, and commissioned to write the compendium. This is a piece of information he has maintained throughout the process. Then there are at least two possible scenarios. One is that he is lying about this - that I do not want to pursue further. The other option is that he thinks this has taken place, but then we assume that it has not. What?]

- Reasons are the same as if he thought he was in Liberia. That we can not falsify. [The prosecutor Holden: - Now, I did it, I said you should assume that it is not true.] This was a counterfactual things we should consider. [The prosecutor Holden: - There is a hypothesis. It comes in light of the conclusion of Husby / Sørheim that KT does not exist. When I give you a similar assumption.]

1:36 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Aspaas: - When you construct a scenario that is not the scenario we assume when we draw conclusions on the mandate] There are several options and thought twice about. Whether that he believed he had been in London and thought he has met them that will go into delusion. Otherwise he could have done the same as before, that he constructed. Maybe he met someone from the EDL and perhaps he has met someone else and so he constructs on that. Then he comes with their own ideas. There is a wealth of possible interpretations here. If one assumes that it has never happened. [Engh inject it has happened that Breivik went to Liberia and London] And just so you can rule out the possibility of having met someone, or a. It is purely hypothetical description of if he would be in a world that thinks he has been in a meeting. So would we be talking about P-style rings, but we have not the approach to it.

- We follow that he has told us a story, it may be true, false, partly true. It has not the qualities of being psychotic as presented there. [Aspaas: - It is very difficult to decide a question about a different reality, when we shall make a declaration. (...) In the hypothetical doubt I was going on in the city, there is the opportunity you are talking about there. It liggger always a hypothetical question, a small possibility that we may be wrong. That's where the problem lies.] [Holden: - For a simple lekmannspsykiater as myself. Whether you sit at the meeting and are 50-60 pages in hand, or not. If you do not, but believe it ... it means that you have a touch with reality?]

1:37 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Well, if you .. I can answer generally: if you do believe that there has been something that has not happened, then it has been touch with reality. And when we are on the hypothetical doubt that I highlighted in the City. [Holden: - So if he thinks he has 50-60 pages of chairman in London, and it has not happened, then it's touch with reality?] Yes, imagination is an imagination.

1:40 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [prosecutor Holden: - My question from a narcissistic personality disorder and a paranoid psychosis of the grandiose size of a criterion of touch with reality. How will you pursue it? If we assume that he thinks he got 50-60 pages, and he made a not, ...] Then we come to the hypothetical possibility again. We can not determine. We have no methodology to exclude. The subject's limitations. [Tørrissen: - If there is a paranoid psychosis. To have 50-60 pages are not paranoid in itself.] [Holden - If it has not happened then?] [Tørrissen: - I sit and try to determine which term to use, but I can not to fit. It is not paranoid character.]

1:40 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [prosecutor Holden: - Could it be the grandiose character?] [Aspaas: - Are you now over the fact that it really has been a delivery of paper] [The prosecutor Holden: - No, now I'm back the Tørrissen said that a clean delivery of the documents would not necessarily lead to a paranoid psychosis] Yes it was right and I can follow up on it. If he were to get this quest and accept without having received this commission and that he is the chosen person, it's a grandiose direction anyway.

1:43 p.m. prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: - That's what he said? [Aspaas: - I do not know if we understood the same. We still believe the description of what has taken place or if he has invented, we do not have some level of tools, but we perceive it not as a delusion.] Part of the problem is that you can not decide whether dettte happened or not. Breivik is what you call a subculture. On page 293 you talk about delusions style affiliations, where you say: "In assessing delusions, one must look to what is generally accepted notions of the culture, subculture, or the environment a person lives in. The the advisory is as shown extreme political perceptions. "Then repeat it to you on page 303:" The experts are as set forth above, not rated his performance as an expression of psychotic thought processes, but that extreme political views, combined with the deliberate neglect of objections. The experts assume that there is an ideological subculture that share observandens ideological and political views. One finds, therefore, no basis for delusional disorder. "In terms of, you have studied his political thoughts and ideas online, what thoughts do you have about what has previously been skisert about possible delusions, that it is not his political ideas that are delusion, but the role he attributes to himself?

1:43 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Engh: - The view that he is the chosen one?] That messiah-like? [Engh: - Yes?] We have pursued the track of conversations with him. And we've asked, "your role, what is it?" And put it up against the messianic roles. We do not get any button where that is. He has decided to use violent means to reach a politsk goals. We believe that the political goal came first and has grown up. He has found it justified to do so, sit utvoer rules. To cleanse Europe of Muslims as a main project, so he had no objections to the most dramatic means.

- [The prosecutor Engh: - But that view, the role he gives the POI, it is the first experts assume that the psychotic component. Do they see others on whom the person who will act?] We find nothing in the subculture that has appointed him to act, He has staked out a role because it is important to him and because he has no objections. We do not recognize the alleged psychotic element, in that killing is imposed on him. That we do not find [prosecutor Engh: - What they outline the role that he gives himself, you do not see that it has a psychotic component?] No, it does not mean we have no psychotic element.

1:46 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [prosecutor Engh: - So we have had a brief question to the witnesses at the sub-culture and terrorism. There we have had three different witnesses. This witness Lia, talked about terrorist networks and those who operate in groups and alone. We had something that there is no visibility differences between the accused and other solo terrorists we know. Lia said that the extreme violence that is exercised here lacks context other than the perpetrator himself. Have you made any thoughts on what he said?] We have seen it as our task to assess observanden for themselves and not other perpetrators. [The prosecutor Engh: - As I understood Lia: where Breivik stood out among those he had seen was that extreme violence was exercised by a person, but of baffling context other than the person in question]

- You thought, because of the context to be in this situation? [Engh: - Yes, he states that some people find it close to him. Oklahomabomberen had seen (...) so he drew parallels to other terrorists in the United States?] The context he has said himself, these violations from Muslims that may seem insignificant in relation to the offense other people in the world are experiencing.

1:49 p.m.Right Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - Perhaps I can attribute a bit .. It is clear that each, and it has fremkomemt very much here in court and elsewhere in the media. The action here is very extreme and it is very difficult for most to understand what came first and what led to it. I understand that this Lia said what he said. He has a number of school level university degree on terrobomber and suicide bombs and so on, but this surpasses most. And seen in that light it is understandable that you do not find any context. But if you flip it, and look after the repsonsen Breivik received from like-minded ideology and the culture, then there are some that do not support the action, which Breivik says himself. Fjordman is opposed to it, some supporting the government building because it is a autoritetsmål, but few support Utøya because they see it as very far off.

1:52 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Mentions Marte Michelet and that he does not understand why Breivik was so provoked by her.] [The prosecutor Engh: - What do you think about it, then?] These were youngsters who were the political fun. She is certain that other people with political interest, that she has some points which she sees as important. It is taken completely out of proportion.

- [The prosecutor Engh: - So I have a question to this with that in the statement on page 215 has disclosed that the defendant says he needs to change the presentation so that people can understand him. So have you been in SCID-tests and that he has responded strategically. Will the same problem asserting themselves in conversations? Is it the same that apply there?] I find that when he talks about politics, it is without inhibitions. When he answers, and presents his views without reservations and we have heard equally strong statements in earlier police interviews and in other descriptions. It's a bit toned down the mood, but he is equally convinced that the relationship is how it is. He is not very correctable on actual data. Is there anyone in the knowledge area in excess of his, he is dismissive, not interested and stop talking about it. But his political affiliations are not correctable.

1:52 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Engh: - He has had conversations with (...), where we heard that he has brought arguments from a person he must have had conversations with, that the first experts to be emotionally engaged. Is there a problem in their judgment of him or is it irrelevant?] It is a challenge, we will not pristine land. The way we have tried to compensate for it is to go to the sources we have from the first time, namely, video interviews and comparing it. That's right, he takes to much of what he hears. From our conversations. [Engh: - Do you hear him say that one of you should have been a psychologist.] Yes. If he has been joined by the debate or thought it yourself, we do not know. [Engh: - Has there been a problem for you that he wanted to be healthy and that he felt the first declaration?]

1:55 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - It is clear that there has been a challenge. We had no alternative to it. But that does not mean we can not say anything. But it led to a lot of checking of alternative sources of information. In early interviews, and manifesto are the safest. [Tørrissen: - Excuse me, I can only attribute some of this to absorb things. I think he has a very strong enve ten, but there are also some rewriting. I will come with a soluble example: In one of the calls I believe to remember that I said "is not this a bit pompous?" And then he said "yes, that's it." I will not say for sure, because when I go to listen to the tape, but I think it was I who introduced the concept and we have heard ad nauseam. But now there is a covered stage. But it can show some of the mechanics, but it is uncertain.]

- [The prosecutor Engh: - This media ban is something that in retrospect, thinking about. So I wonder observation of Ila. Was it you that specific mandate?] It was a mandate in the form of an oral delivery of what we wanted to be elucidated. We wanted ascertain everything that could conceivably resorted to psychosis. The main evaluation criteria for us. It is unnecessary to instruct such an experienced team of what to look for psychosis. They have the problem all the time. It was the main point. Then broadest possible description of how he works in the talks, how he reacts to television broadcasts about the case ... How they look at Asperger's, but with emphasis on psychosis - any signs of psychosis.

1:58 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [prosecutor Engh: - But when you became aware of the contents of the statement number one?] We knew it from the press and discussed about it. When we read the interviews, there was also a theme in December. In connection with our recent conversations we read it. [The prosecutor Engh: - Was it considered whether the observation team should look for the characteristic symptom picture as the first expert bases his conclusion. They describe a man with cognitive impairment and delusions associated with your role and greatness. If the observation team go at it and look at it?] We pointed it specifically towards the first statement it had not we read. [The prosecutor Engh - I thought at the end]

- No, we sharpened it is not so specific. [Engh: - I understood the observation team ... No, it's right there. [Engh: - An attempt to find an explanation. She describes the more his behavior. Adheres you trust the explanation she gives or not?] We have no reason not to fix some of her explanations of behavior. [Tørrissen: Can you just read up instantly?]

- [Engh: - It is on page 79 that she saw her son's involvement in writing as abnormal and, and he became more and more intense. (...) "From 2010, he was very strange, said I had to sneeze, was strict, and particularly complained about the food"] We have no reason to not trust this. On the contrary. He even talks about this withdrawal, and used the time to write and not to disclose the contents of part three in particular. And do not reveal it. We know the history of sneezing and so on.

2:01 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - But it is important to add that in 2006-2007, so he and mother is desperate and he gets annoyed if he is interrupted. The same can also be seen later. He is becoming more aware of their own project, he is radical and more irritated. There is no reason to think that she has not said this. Then there is the reflection in relation to the face mask. It is clear that we had to reflect on in relation to whether it is a delusion to be sick. As we looked at it, work is not so prominent, there were conflicting observations. Had he gone with a face mask on Utøya, and had kept it all spring, it would have been different.

2:03 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - He has a brief period in April, a sinus infection and it went over. One final point is that he at times went on anabolic steroids and that he has done for three periods. A In 2009, in 2010 and one in 2011. Aggressiveness and other symptoms are common, it can be a contributing factor. Then I get the described time period given to whether it coincides with periods of anabolic steroids and may be a plausible foklaring. [The prosecutor Engh: - Would have been nice to ask the mother about it?] Yes, it had been. But it is also not discussed, it was because of anabolic steroids. I do not know if they had information about anabolic steroids.

2:03 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Engh: - Very few questions again. I wonder, we have heard little conversation Breivik has with the police when he calls in from Utøya. When you hear the conversation, you have done you some thoughts on ...] The conversation is striking. It is a striking way to present themselves. We must learn more about and how it goes with this commander identity? Is there something that lasts, or is it something he correct? [Engh: - He repeated this with the commander of the detention. Have you dealt he?]

- Sure. And he has had a peculiar behavior in detention meeting in February, and a peculiar opening greeting in the first days of the trial here. And the explanation for it has always been that he plays for a gallery of suspected sympathizers around. It is meant for them, as I think I was on yesterday. [Engh: - This is when he called the police and introduced himself, have you asked him directly why he presented himself in the way he does? Expect him to be understood?] Sure. And he has said he wondered if it was the right way to do it. He's reflected around it.

2:05 p.m. prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: - So this with uniform use. What I wonder is whether you have done you some thoughts about the charges that he himself says at one point decides to sell a message. In connection with what he has created a uniform with medals. What is it that makes him the story he has, I think that he will be greeted with anything but laughter with the uniforms?

2:08 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - He must have expected that large parts of society to take away from it and that he should be laughed at, he has assumed in advance from the manifesto. But he also believes there is a subculture in which it is possible to impress and recruit and that the uniform is part of window dressing in the movements on the right side and other sides. [The prosecutor Engh: - right-hand side will see the seriousness in the uniform of the others do] Yes, and he has directed to the right-wing extremist movements around. Historical and current perspective. Hungary in the present. You can see the right-wing march in uniform effects and banners. [The prosecutor Engh: - He has also said that he has a small group in mind. When he sent out the manifesto he sent it out to journalists and parliamentary politicians. Do you have any thoughts on that?]

2:09 p.m. prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: - [Aspaas: - I see he has sent it to many, and he has well said that he would spread it as far as he could and the more he got out the better chance.] [Heather: - A question to the prosecutor. I do not know if we have to know how wide it is sent out. It can be seen very wide or a little far, or?] Sent / attempted sent to 36 Labour Politicians, (...) from the Conservatives, 18 Christian Democratic Party, 2 from Q, 5 from SV, 15 from the Liberals, 219 parliamentary politicians, three of these friends who was here and testified and over 400 from the media. With the caveat of what is ...

2:10 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Defense Geir Lippestad: - It was sent out 8000 and that not all been identified. Just so we have frames.] [Engh: So I wondered a bit about it, when we are still on Utøya. We touched upon the fact that when he was asked to undress in Utøya So, I was not here the day it was talked about, but posed, I think was the word that was used. So we asked the defendant why he did it, and he explained that it was a joke. Do you have any thoughts about what he chooses to joke in the hours after he has just liquidated all these people on Utøya? While he was still on Utøya?]

2:11 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - There is much in the situation that is heartfelt. It can be a tactless joke. We've heard a couple here in court, too. [The prosecutor Engh: - Yes, but then it has been a little more distance in time.] Yes, tactless, I do not think it can be interpreted further. [Tørrissen: - One can interpret more into it, and to me this might be a little flare of the grandiositeten. It would be typical to him.] [The prosecutor Engh: - Those who questioned him on Utøya was concerned that they would like him. Rosenqvist confirmed the same. What makes him think that someone will like him in that situation?]

- You can say, but it is probably a human trait that he wants to be liked. [Judge Arntzen: - Can I interject a question. The fact that he had E-Stack on the same day, taken anabolic steroids and adrenaline in the body may have made him high on themselves?] We are in no doubt that he was high on themselves in the situation there, that he was easily influenced by restorative materials. [Arntzen Judge: - Mister Mon social judgment?] Mon Bir high enough on its own as it goes. I do not know how much we should emphasize it.

2:12 p.m. prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh: - [Tørrissen: - There may be an explanation.] [Hein Bæra: - Just a clarification. The defendant said not only that it was a joke, but that it was a "bad joke".] Having had a very long presentation of evidence in court and examined the dead, made it clear the defendant that he disagreed with the description that he swore at Utøya. Do you have any thoughts about his understanding of how he acts on his abandonment when he says this?

2:14 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - I understand what you're thinking, but to explain it, I can not get to the bottom. But we have seen that situasjonsfornemmelsen not entirely true. There are several examples of it. Just take as much initiative and entering in a voice chat we met. It is probably common in forensic psychiatry that most of those being observed will be a little spakere and wait and feel their way before they take intitiativ that way. There are many examples of the situation, feeling that could have been different. [Engh: - Also lately, as you write in their report on page 234, that it could be that the prime minister to request that it was arranging "an accident", do you have any thoughts on that?]

- Yes, we heard both the police describe it. It is possible to understand, he had been in an arrest situation. This was a case is the brightest police officers come out. There have been several examples where the Delta squad has shot in arrest situations. They have occurred partly Torp airport in september -94. But the starting point was that there was a situation with a certain amount of risk which the police could fire shots. And he was afraid. He had several thoughts about being killed. He thought of losing control and if any among other things, Prime Minister of the situation ...

- What we have noted on the assessment if it was psychosis or were not confident that he was very fast. After ten minutes was one over in a situation that you were in a negotiating platform, he acquired very quickly, because the police were really on for information about accomplices. This fear of being killed by colored it right away. Then there is a psychosis in forensic psychiatric sense. It will last over time and several days. This to die of thirst gave up after a Google search and a half liters of soda.

- [Engh: - What about the statements that he Ila would be subjected to torture in the form of waterboarding. Do you have any thoughts on that?] Yes, he takes the wrong when it comes to methods currently in use in Norway. At the same time, our close allies had to respond to some things a little more than prisoners in extreme situations. [Engh: - If he had reason to believe that he would be tortured Ila] No, but he had references to similar things that have occurred among prisoners in special situations, so it is possible to understand that the thought occurred to him. [Tørrissen: - While he has put himself into a lot of literature about the torture methods. He has described forms of bestial murder of film and decapitation. I think he uses it as a statement that is probably in that direction, and that he uses such a phrase.]

2:19 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Otherwise, there is much he does not know about the community. The staff from the security department said he had no idea of ??how modern psychiatry does. The ideas he had corresponded better with the distant past psychiatric institutions. [Arntzen: - If I can interject a question before I give the word to the defenders. When he talks about uniforms, among other things as he pulls some historical parallels. The right-wing extremist groups and to historical praleller. When one reads both statements he refers to historical events far back in time. Did you address those historical events which he talked about and so if they were used in an appropriate historical context to put it this way?]

- Only partly. We could not follow up. [Judge Arntzen: - What you partially did. Was it consistent?] Yes, it is easy to make up their minds when one refers to right-wing extremists, for example in Hungary. It is easy to know. Now I do not remember any examples, but it is something from recent history. [Arntzen: - Queen Isabelle, I think he mentioned. You have not checked this?] No, it has not been possible to check.

2:28 p.m. Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - We take a break at half three. We would like to quit four forty-five today.

2:33 p.m. VG: - Negotiations continue.

2:36 p.m. defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - I will not spend time going through the judgment is well lit, but some questions I have, and it goes on the methodology of the two expert reports. But before I come to it, should I just get a little follow-up. On receipt of this with the 60 documents in Lobdon. Is it possible that there can only be a lie? [Aspaas: - Yes, we have no methodology that can confirm or deny this.] All lies may not be reality bursting - they can also be opportune?

- [Aspaas: - They can not, it's right there. It is a common topic when we testify in criminal cases it is often so we do not know if it's true or not. It is a common problem] It was the huge production. I'm on the way. I is based on the total assessment of psychosis concept that is central to our view. The outlines of 301 you for your overall assessment of it. So you say that the experts find it unlikely that observanden have a psychotic disorder at the time of the survey. But then you say at the bottom that it should be emphasized that it is based on judgment and that the other experts have come to the results that the exercise of its discretion. As to the different methods used. Husby and Sørheim explained that they have deliberately chosen not to interpretations of neologisms and delusions in a political context.

2:40 p.m. defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - You have chosen a somewhat different utgangpsunkt, and it says something about you in the declaration. Why? [Aspaas: - Short and sweet, as required by diagnostic criteria that the performances should be assessed against current ideas in the literature. We can find it, if there is a point.] That you have chosen to interpret it have a little understanding of the various assessments to do. The bottom of page 181 and then it continues at 182

2:42 p.m.Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - I think we're on page 84 in the blue book on the criteria. How this with the cultural perspectives come. And that is the point D, persistent delusions of other kinds that are kulurelt inappropriate. [Bæra: - And where necessary, have you ... How ... What impact has it had on the assessments you have done? In particular regard to the understanding of what is nelogismer and what is delusion? You said something about it during the examination in place, that we can be so disagree with the understanding of the concepts, but the interpretation is different.] There has been significant for our opinion on several points, especially how to understand these concepts and notions of community, and also to place this Knighst Templar mythology in a context, there has been significant.

2:43 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - Only attach them in addition to ICD-10, one sees very explicit in SKID-intrerjuvet. The conviction is of a nature that it can not be regarded as a psychosis. It is a long tradition of not taking to that delusion, I can give an example of a sect. The Serpents, a small religious community in the United States. They believe that being bitten by a snake leads to eternal salvation. Being bitten by a poisonous snake shows that it is the correct black. This is an entire church that goes to church every Sunday. One can imagine that they have a leader who has some delusion. But it should give psychotic quality to the whole sect, it is not.

2:45 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - And it is an example of religious beliefs that belong to a culture. [Aspaas: - At the same time so that the notion of a culture does not exclude it either psychosis and must be evaluated individually]. [Bæra: - The decision that we would interpret it into a context, it was something you agreed early?] I do not think we talked about it in itself, but we began with the documents and conversations with observanden. So we should think independently and start from there and not to discuss anything at all. We wanted to meet when we came to such a point. Now Aspaas answer for themselves, but I could not help but go online and see. It was unusual for me and these thoughts. I did not so much from before but I know a number of subcultures.

2:46 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Tørrissen: - And it was not hard to recover this, it was just to go straight to the (...) It was undreamt.] [Hein Bæra: - Is it normal to so, when it is not unusual occurring positions, such as Jesus the example that was mentioned yesterday?] When it began to be a certain element of foreign culture in the population. When it was necessary to know something about cultural expression. There was a lot of courses in this for the health of 80 - and 90-century. The same is true when one considers the religious people of subcultures. Do you have to add some other frames of reference in place. It has happened to me that I've got people from religious subcultures. Then I had to get me information on what is common perceptions and what is not.

- [Bæra: - Because it takes quite a bit to use the term impossible or impossible in terms of delusions?] What we would call delusions may be regular expressions in a culture we do not know. So we got elemnetær knowledge of it. [Bæra: - You said just now that you chose to make their assessments independently. It was something you decided early on, and at some tidpsunkt come together. Why was it important for you?] We knew that in this case we would be followed carefully how we worked. We knew of the criticism of the first experts. It is normal working. I have been doing it together as well, and it has been for practical reasons. For example, if observanden have been very reluctant and to ensure that both get to talk to observanden we have met together in the first call. Or there have been security to it.

- But the general rule is that you meet observanden separately. In order to make up their minds before they meet, But to meet a observand together, also have their distinct advantages. When one sees the same thing when you are going to discuss later. [Hein Bæra: - Then there's this. We heard a bit on Thursday and Friday. I think it was Husby who maintained that it was better to come early for the complained of actions. They described the accused as an open faucet. There was much that was out. They argued that it was important in relation to the information they received that they came in at an early stage. You came in at a later date. What effects do you have on you?]

2:51 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Aspaas: - It is clearly an advantage to get in early. The advantage we had to come in later that the investigation had been extended. Two areas, this was the economy and the other was part of the investigation around the KT. The two areas less hung in the air when we started. We had to try to compensate it. We spent some time reviewing the audio - visual content, especially during the first interrogations. Later questioning we played and rewinded and listened to a piece of sequences beyond. A little addition to this theme, now I do not remember in my head first call to the Husby and Sørheim. There were 10/8. He had been supervised under the prison health service for a fortnight and it is clear that since the prison health services block had been built as early was an important source in addition to radio and television interviews. Now I do not remember how many interviews had taken place before 10/8. You remember better than me, but there were quite a few hours from 22 July 10 august. The question I have thought through why he has been like an open faucet in the face of Husby and Sørheim and not been there in the police interrogation in the same way.

- Much of the explanation lies of course in the police at the time may have information about (...) the structure may have been annnerledes. In the transcript it appears quite ordinary political sequences. The material is known. But as I said yesterday, that is exactly what was going on in the chat room. Husby and Sørheim have told you how it turned out for them. We must use other sources, what was here at that time. Then the main sources, DVD, audio and prison service, to some extent staff of Ila and police questioning as the main sources to consider this.

- And especially important with the seven-hour long interrogation on 22 and 23 And there we asked the same conditions as Husby and Sørheim. They also had it, and it is the same for both. [Bæra: - Is it sufficiently informed the period you were not there?] [Aspaas: - It is illuminated sufficiently for us to make a statement, yes.] [Bæra: - And that you are confident in their conclusion?] [Aspaas: - As far as we can be with the aim of the method.]

2:55 p.m. defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - And then we are a little further with this method. It's a little that separates the two reports. Among other observations. I would like to talk a bit about why you chose the selection of the 18 and if you had any influence on it. [Aspaas: - It was in practice only a department that could do it, and it was the department Dikemark. We had no direct influence, and did not know they were elected.] The fact that it was a multidisciplinary approach, what impact would it? [Aspaas: - It is an advantage to have trained nursing staff. It's like the emergency room, where I have worked for many years. You get into a patient and to evaluate it, and is completely at the mercy of good colleagues who have been out and can report and know what they see.]

2:56 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Aspaas: - So we have dialogues around it. It is common way of working that we recognize.] I will add that the security department at Dikemark has developed a working method they have completed these observations at many times. They have created a structure on how this should be done to assist the experts. They said something about the frame, what to look for and after they go into a dialogue with experts about what more you want to know. They have a basic structure and follow it to the observation. The standard has been working out in recent years. There is a help that they plan in advance and are used to this type of work. They have a standard on this already. [Bæra: - Can you say something about how the dialogue was?]

2:56 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Between Us and ... we had a meeting in advance and discussed how this should be done. The theme was that it had to be conducted in Ila. We thought how can it be, and asked some questions about it. We talked to two follow-up meetings and a final meeting. In the first two meetings were described observanden very descriptive. A description of what he said and did, the ability of concentration, interaction around the table. At the last meeting took the blade from his mouth and said if they thought this was psychotic or not, as we have heard from superior.

- The first meeting was with Sigurd Jónsdóttir, physician and psychologist and two nurses who were sued here. The last meeting was almost full team. And we did not give satisfaction to our opinion on these meetings along the way. [Bæra: - Why not?] We did not want to influence them. We would expect that, but at the last meeting they knew enough what we had planned. But it was important for us not to place constraints on the way. [Bæra: - We also heard that they would not discuss the diagnosis, but only observe along the way?]

- Yes, there was a distribution of roles. [Hein Bæra: - That also is the method? You said earlier that there was no evidence of psychotic findings in the observation, how it affected their judgment?] It made us confident that we had set the same. [Hein Bæra: - How important is it?] It was important. If they had seen something else, we should have sat down and gone through things again. There is a difference between sitting down and talking with someone in a few hours and see the person around the clock. When we speak, there is a certain structure in the conversation. Over an entire day, there are everyday things done, you see tv, reading the newspaper, caring capable meals.

3:00 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Defense Bæra: - So did you various methods?] Yes, different setting. [Defense Bæra: - I understand that you do these common games, eat normal, while one has an active iaktakelse after five symptoms] Yes, that's how an experienced staff are trained to do. It is embedded in their way of being on the job. [Bæra: - Is it so that, in the type of observation, from experience, how easily identified psychotic symptoms?]

- The more time that passes, the harder it is to hide the symptoms. Sigurd Jónsdóttir, compared with a normal observation which is ten days and in exceptional cases ten days to. Then the rule so that they say at least ten plus ten days, one has no reason to hold on any longer. If it's not come up signs of psychosis. [Bæra: - And was not it?] No. [Tørrissen: - If we discover a psychosis of 21 days, so I have a little difficult to see that you can not find anything in 21 days, but I can not completely rule out that it happens once in a lifetime.]

3:05 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - But you can say that it is quite strong with a long observation. [Bæra: With so qualified so you mean a total of 18 people with 21 years experience on average?] I can see that the young patients, in 16 to 20 years old, I can imagine that it is more difficult trade-offs in rettsspyskose, not psychosis but just psychosis. There may be more hidden problems. And that does not always lead to the diagnosis schizpfreni, but may be present. It says on page 26 in blåboka, wait, unnksyld, it may be that I took a lot of swing here now. But I have it written down. [Bæra: Another major difference in methodology. You have recorded conversations with the defendant on bond. What has given you, what are the experiences with it?] [Aspaas: - I have never used it in such a context before. But here there are so many calls. In a common declaration only two, maybe three. There were a lot of Aag review and with so many calls can be confused even though I write a lot. I have not heard anything afterwards but returned to the parts. And I have such a good experience that I will probably use it again that is.]

- The same applies to me because I think it was really the more I thought that normally would a person be relatively flexible when you refer a call. A person can say that he thinks it is, that it's okay that you wrote it that way and that, in this case with the level of detail observanden is concerned, did not. Cf. 200 errors in the declaration. I could sit down and typed out that this is not a problem. One can go back. I found it very useful. I will also work with it.

3:06 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Tørrissen: - In addition, you will hear how talks progress in mood and assess the present status and often you write in the wake and can not remember everything. I considered it a good tool and is happy that were made.] [Bæra: - Can we take it so far that one can say anything about it do something about the quality of the present status?] For my part, it is enough to take a bit far. I noted in pencil after the call my impression from conversations with the rest of the note, the contents. [Bæra: - With a pencil you get may not be feeling rents?] No, it's right there. I would say most of it was captured.

3:09 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Aspaas: - The ability to control.] For my part, I noted nothing. I do not think it has much to say for the present status of either. What was my problem is that I am not so used to listen and write simultaneously, so it took a lot of time. [Bæra: - I want to learn more about what you're thinking about, he is adjusting to most chat rooms, as you said, even if it's isolation?] It's the way I perceive it. I would assume that many people are in the same way. [Bæra: - What does that tell you?] It says something about flexibility. It's strange that a person can keep as strict limits, total isolation, adapt, be polite, not aggressive, it says something about him as a person. (...) I have been part of the prison and I have not seen it in any way. It says something about dedikerthet or that one can endure 13 hours of police interrogation is also unique. It is unusual and I think the other confirm too.

3:12 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Bæra And Rosenqvist, Randi Rosenqvist, was nne of this symptom with the pressure. Can you say something about this to the adaptation ability?] I checked this SCR90, which says nothing about psychosis, but other parts of the spectrum and it is very low. There is also a bit of it, that up to psychosis, we will assume that such observation will lead to manifestations of psychosis, which it did not. As we see it. [Arntzen: - May I interject a question? Observation and gjennomskuing of psychotic symptoms of the disorder we have heard, which is within the one third part without kognetiv failure?] In a schizophrenic one expects positive psychotic symptoms. So it is possible delusions and the things of parnoiditet or grandiose ideas, they are positive vrangforstillingene and it is the first thing we look for. Hallusiansjoner, influenced by the voices and so on. The symptoms that most often comes to utryykk. In an emergency department, you will in the course of ten days discover this if it is acute. This was a compulsory observation and yet there was no positive symptoms.

- The other side of schizophrenia, the negative development of symptoms. We did not it. But it need not be present in very large degree. It may come afterwards, so there is a line of presentation methods. When it comes to being cognitively present, is that a major action is affected, while a small part is not.

3:13 p.m. defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - [Tørrissen: - But here we just basically meant that he is cognitively present and has capacity for work and many of these things, but can not find in our observation that he has positive or negative psychotic symptoms.] As I have just one last question and it is a follow-up of the many questions that have been raised from the prosecutor in the day around the dissocial personality disorder and doubt about it. Have any ambiguities surrounding the dissocial personality disorder shaken by their conclusion in the overall assessment of psychosis? [Aspaas: - The answer is no.] Thank you, when I have more questions.

3:16 p.m. Lawyer Siv Hallgren: - [Arntzen: - Are they coordinating any questions?] We have a few questions each of us. Back to what was mentioned about the recordings. You took the recording also received a copy defenders. Got any other copies? [Aspaas: - No.] Did you have any idea of ??whether the accused was aware of what you talked about? [Aspaas:-He had no more knowledge of the previous conversation beyond what he had in virtue of having been present there.] I see that my question is a bit cumbersome set. [Aspaas: - If he has played the recording, I damn sure do not. But I think they have been with the attorneys.] Do you know if the defenders were playing for his recordings? [Aspaas: - We have no knowledge of it.] [Lippestad: - To bring your tape recorder or computer into Ila is not possible. That's as far as I have in me my jacket in there.] I was totally confused by the idea of ??Lippestad without a jacket, but I'll take it. (...) (Aspaas: - Do not always complete. We asked: Have you gone down since the last time that you want to add. He had often prepared.]

3:17 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - He dispensed want to say anything more about empathy among other things. [Hallgren: - Is that what he was up?] He picked up things from the last time that he wanted to come back to. [Hallgren: - Based on the theme?] Yes, based on the theme and notes he had made himself. [Hallgren: Had he seen through the notes from you?] Yes, now I know what you mean. The chapter called history, which is in beginning of our statement. Medical history means history and highlights the family, childhood, school, friends, interests and so on, which appears on page 83 of our privacy. And I had, after the first calls started anamnesekapittelet, and had it with me. I asked him to read it to see if I had gotten it right with me. [Hallgren: - Yes, it was just a practical piece of information.]

3:18 p.m. Lawyer Siv Hallgren: - He told you that it was Husby and Sørheim had made a lot of claims. 2oo lies and allegations which were fictional. Can you repeat, how do you interpret this? [Aspaas: - Basically, we have difficulty believing that our colleagues are lying. We see this as impossible. But misinterpretations of opinion may be, of course. And in that context, we recorded the observanden was careful in the minutes and details. He has additions that sometimes is not so important for the big picture.]

3:18 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - But otherwise it's difficult to have any clear opinion that. [Lawyer Hallgren: - This new arrangement with them. On page 94 in the first declaration in which they write that observanden uses words he says he has constructed. Did you see him if he had found on these?] We asked him many words and he explained to them. Rank Designation and what the words were composed of which were new words to me as "anarkomarxist." You find words that have this, the kind words through Google Search. [Lawyer Hallgren: - He told them he had made them yourself, you asked him about it?]

3:19 p.m. Lawyer Siv Hallgren: - [Aspaas: - Yes, we did it and including Knight Chief Justice, he confirmed to have made himself. He points out that the ranks and titles had been in other organization; he wanted to compare with. Similarly, he will have rank designations or titles.] What was the last thing you said? [Aspaas: - He would have rank designations or titles.] You asked explicitly whether he made the words themselves? [Aspaas: - I do not remember to move the words we asked eksplittt about, but we asked for some words we had found in statements to the police.]

3:23 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - We asked whether he could explain the word and what it means, and we explain. I do not know if we asked explicitly about each word. This rangssytemet found in similar organizations. Frimuererme have their ragnssystemer, have their lodges. This is known concepts and that someone put it together as a hybrid between the judiciary and the Freemasons ... I thought "well, that's what it is." But there is no neologisms as I see it. [Hallgren: - Thank you.] [Elgesem: - We have some questions. Of course, back to neologisms and familiar themes. And it can touch something you have mentioned earlier, additional things. I will start by going back to the analysis of dissocial personlighetsforstuyrrelse. There was an item on page 272, and I will relate some additional factors for consideration. This is in disregard for their own and others' safety. Where you mention the main point, 22 July, but other factors that have been up in the case. Among other things, he called himself a risk pervert. Are there conditions that can be attached in any context?]

3:24 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Yes [Elgesem: - Would it be relevant in this section?] [Tørrissen: - I do not think we were very much into what it risikoperverse was. We have registered expressions, but I have not pursued it. There was no central theme.] We discussed such topics as he had hung on the back of the tram and thought back on our own childhood. There will be limits to what one can draw. [Elgesem: - This trip to Liberia was not a common destination. Have you thought about this?]

- He said that even if risky, and we know that there has been unrest there at the time. [Lawyer Elgesem: - He would buy diamonds that were on the edge ...] It is clear that it is risky. [Lawyer Elgesem: - Another item that has been mentioned in court was the production of the bomb. There were parts in the mechanism which will enable the police would not do it] Yes, he has done it and he's transporting it. There is no getting away from that it was risky.

3:27 p.m. Lawyer Frode Elgesem: - [Aspaas: - But how long time it was over, perhaps not so very far. The bomb production was not so far. (...) [Aspaas: - I am not sure how much we should emphasize that, but there are elements.] Into the core issue of psychosis. Can you explain the difference between psychotic and non-psychotic grandiose ideas? [Aspaas: - The psychotic grandiositeten reality will be bursting. In general, that one is divine, or a Napoleon reborn or something like that. Then it is usually in the form of a manic psychosis. In the context of schizophrenia can also be (...) capabilities, inventions that are questionable reality. The difference, if it is not very lively psychotic grandeur ideas, vanligis are correctable when they meet resistance. I have been in criminal cases before where there have been quite lively stories that have triggered the police investigation. Once it has been focused on this, it has become very toned down.] Meaning of usikkerkheten of the meeting in London took place and the meeting with the Serb in Liberia took place. It may be true, or a fantiasi or vrangforstling. Do I understand you correctly, if their analysis of it, it lacks the full psychotic quality and when he is challenged on the big picture shrinks it so, in line with what you have now said?

3:28 p.m.Right Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - It is how we intend. It is understood correctly. [Elgesem: - And as I said to the little rest then, and this is an actual question - not about skills or other things, whether there have been these meetings. Then we have some opportunities, that it is pure imagination, fantasy, fiction or pure lie. Do you have any thoughts on what may be most obvious in the light of what we are about a Breivik and his story?] I find it difficult to speculate about it in our job. [Tørrissen: - It is difficult to say if it's one or the other. What has been important is to say if it is a psychotic quality or not, and we find no psychotic quality to it. If he has made sannhten before, during, or after, or whether it is a lie that's sort of ...] Andres guess is as good as our words.

- [Elgesem: - But if we think, how well grounded do you think that this notion that he is a salesman, that his action will be selling the compendium, how strongly rooted this in his testimony in court?] It is very strongly rooted. He has used it as a platform to spread the compendium. It is clear knead. [Elgesem: - As an extension of that, what if he had given up the last little part, what would he have been left with then?] What is the last part? [Elgesem: - These meetings.]

- If it had weakened his selling point, I do not know. [Lawyer Elgesem: - I understand when to return to psychotic quality and what you said about the professional in this. It requires not only a misconception about a delusion, but it requires something qualitatively more than that. Can we go further into it] A misunderstanding is nothing but a delusion. A psychotic quality is that it is not possible to correct the facts.

3:30 p.m. Lawyer Frode Elgesem: - Okay. The next element of delusion court has put on the table is the role he has played: One who will save us from ruin, and has the right to decide who should live or dead. If you have such a role perception (...)? [Aspaas: - We have not seen it that way. Anyone who takes a role, where they plan to carry out murder, sits over life and death and takes this into their own hands. We have not seen the psychotic there, we have seen it as a means by which he has no objections used by a political nature.]

3:32 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Elgesem: - And then we may have to drill a bit further. What has brought forth this understanding in him. And you have explained something about what's online and what you've been looking for it. And I think we all agree in this chamber, that there are likesinnedne Islamophobic out there. But it is the transition to the extreme, to the terrorist. I understand you correctly, if you see that it is where calls that can drive further to become terrorist? Is there an explanation?] We have seen it that way, but it is also much that is not directly exhortations to violence. We are lay people on this and where is it appropriate to refer to the fagvitnene who have been inside.

3:33 p.m. Lawyer Frode Elgesem: - What is important in terms of their explanation is how he explains all about this to you. The difference is between a situation where he has a perception that he received the mandate of any other. Or that he analyzed his way to this on your own. How will you recognize him around this? [Aspaas: - He was to develop a compendium on the basis of a few sketches. And then he spun on that.] Has he given the impression to you that he has been given this mandate by someone else? [Judge Arntzen: - What are you talking about the mandate, Elgesem] Who shall live and who should die.

3:35 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - It is a bit unclear to me, but if we go back to what he described on KT are cells that have the right to take such actions on their own. But I do not think I can distinguish exactly how much he has said and even developed and where precisely what he had from London has been. [Tørrissen: - No, it is at the level that something he has maintained all the time. He was given a mandate to develop a compendium. It is difficult for us to say which came first and last, but we assume that his way of taking on tasks and do things there is a lot coming from him in the development of this here. However, the boundaries are difficult to say. Just Psychiatry, we have no opportunity to say that in 2005 it happened or not.]

3:35 p.m. Lawyer Frode Elgesem: - He has a role even in this? [Tørrissen: - No doubt.] Do you believe that had a choice? [Aspaas: - Yes, he had the choice all the way and he had become safer and more secure in their project. He had a past point of no return just a few hundred meters from the government quarter, as he has explained it.]

Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen has now got the word and start to question whether it was a disadvantage that Tørrissen Aspaas and did not know each other prior to the assessment of the mass murderer. Aspaas see in retrospect that they found a way to work on and who fell into place by making practical agreements on what to write and how they would organize it. Right psychiatrist believes it was an advantage when they would meet the criticism that they knew would come. Tørrissen explains that he had the idea that the disadvantage in that he did not know Aspaas in such a big thing has expectations for capacity and the collaboration went well. - We did not know each other, but have had good cooperation and agreed that we should not discuss and we have delivered on time, explains Tørrissen.

3:41 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - We I remember correctly he thought of this on the pier at Utøya too. A thought about doing and not doing. But he chooses to do every time. [Elgesem: - Finally, we talked a bit about the way he introduced himself when he was calling from Utøya. Oppffatter you what is very different from the one from another terrorist organization would have done it, such as al-Qaeda?] [Aspaas: - I do not think I know enough about it.] I have a comment that he presents himself as a commander who He has done in the manifest. And he who sits at the other end, and it is full time in Oslo and Utøya, so calling someone says he will surrender, it will be the recipient of a question: who are you, details, the phone call from and so on. And I can draw a similar case before. I do not like so much to talk about old cases, but it's a case I was in where he phoned in to police in a city in Norway, saying that "there is someone here now who are stuck, and you want me to quickly close to kill? ". The call is on four muinutter and the police should understand that there is a murder here and now. Quest is who are you and where you are. It is a spsiell situation.

3:41 p.m. Lawyer Frode Elgesem: - Apart from that he also says that he is on Utøya. It is perhaps not entirely unreasonable that the alarm had gone. [Tørrissen: - It certainly boiled over everything, and I do not remember ... We have heard the recording? It's getting a bit late in the day.] Then I give the word to the attorney Larsen.

3:41 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Lawyer Larsen: - Bæra have asked about the methods thoroughly. First, is it that you did not know each other from before. Could it also had some drawbacks that have not met before?] To put it another way. Knowing a partner of such a work has clear benefits for the many practical aspects. You should write and find solutions to many things. Samarbeidstrutiner has advantages. In that sense, there was uncertainty when we went into this. What kind of work capacity has worms shoulder. [Lawyer Larsen: - But what ended it out if I ask you today?] No, we found very soon a way to work together on that fell into place. Very easy to make practical arrangements on what to write, what parts of the work we should do and organize this. It fell well in place. [Lawyer Larsen: - Can you then say something briefly about the benefits that you did not know each other from before?]

3:45 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Aspaas: - In a case like this, it is in every way (...), which we filled out who we knew in the Commission and participants in the case etc. What was the question again? ] [Larsen: - Are there any benefits that you did not know each other from before?] [Aspaas: - It was an advantage in the face of criticism we knew would come, and the kind of reassurance, here we go not in any known tracks and falls not into any stereotypical thinking ways.] [Larsen: - Can you answer that, Tørrissen?] You're dependent on a work distribution. In such a large task like this, with 40,000 pages documents, it requires that you come with one that has a high work rate. That it is possible to flexibly cooperate, you do such distributions. One can imagine that you get in a situation where this is not so easy. [Larsen: - How was it here?] We have had a very good cooperation. Both were very conscious not to discuss their own thoughts and perceptions. We had a very good distribution of work. "Can I get another week" has not existed as a concept. So cooperation has, in my opinion ... could not hit better cooperation.

- [Larsen: - So if you can just briefly say something about the benefits that you did not know each other from before, if there were some advantages, Tørrissen] The advantages is that you come Fri any different experience. I had not heard the name once so I did not know, but when you come from different parts, then you have different experiences. And I soon found out that he has worked in akuttsppyskiatri, as I have done for years. It's the same experience and background in which, among other things, how to detect psychosis which is a great advantage. I know he had a psychosis unit basis, as I have. He has security background, I do research. Mon competence and there has been a fruitful cooperation. [Larsen: - Then there is the question posed the first pair of conclusion, and they had no pressure. Did you have pressure from some in terms of conclusion?] [Aspaas: - No, not at all.] [Larsen: - So that the society was in turmoil over, it is not to go too far, that it was in rebellion of the first report. Did you consider any of that?] [Aspaas: - No, we predicted that no matter what conclusion we came to, it would be difficult.]

- [Larsen: - So there was no sane safety pressure out walking?] [Aspaas: - It did not feel that way.] [Larsen: - A term. Medical consensus. What is it? Can you without holding a long speech, say something about .. That which you understand the diagnostic criteria, it is a term one uses in medicine?] Diagnostic criteria and SKID is a medical consensus. But I think neither I nor Aspaas have any understanding of the diagnosis than other psychiatrists. [Larsen - Is paranoid schizophrenia a lifelong illness?]

3:48 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - Schizophrenia is often permanent. There are examples of a small group of patients with schizophrenia meet criteria and who recovers. [Lawyer Larsen: - Can you say something about the severity of schizophrenia, where we are in the scale that you can ask paranoid schizophrenia?] There is a serious mental illness in the civil law. [Lawyer Larsen: - How should a doctor think in terms of asking such a serious diagnosis. How secure should a doctor be] You shall follow the criteria. [Lawyer Larsen: - But the term conservative] Yes, if you think regular clinic and if you are unsure then wait an in diagnosis. If you have good enough observations and knowledge over time as set Mon diagnosis. People are less hesitant now than ten years ago.

3:50 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Larsen: - A moment as you have pointed out, (...), this having the distance to the actions that benefit. Can you say anything about it?] [Aspaas: - We did not have to decide økonomni, the exact size is not important. We knew about the possible investigation of Knights Templar, who said that they had not found anything. So we had some more and play like that.] I will also give a comment to the previous one. I read through 1500 pages of North Mains, tax papers, etc. 17.02 we came BRAZZY how much he had earned. He came into the summer as I thought, "How on earth did this man come from?" "Just look at avhørere" he said. I have not seen anything in interviews that it has arrived. It came at a much later date. It was only here in court I got the final announcement that he had 3.7 million.

3:52 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Larsen: - And it goes on factual things, but the issue of emotionality, it is after all mentioned by the first. Can you say anything about it?] Not only that we remember how the atmosphere was in the weeks and months after 22 July. How it affected the whole community and there was a mood, at least I thought, "I'll ever laugh again?". It was rosetog and funerals everywhere and it had fallen a part in place when we began our work. Hard to say how it affected us, I will not speculate in. [Larsen: - Back to 22 July. Criteria, and then I'm over the law, was that he was psychotic. If we put away all the diagnostic manuals, can I ask, Torgersen said, we do not have diagnostic manuals for normality, but can you say what you did not find, what was missing, say some people, what did you lack 22 July, when you heard the tape? What we wanted to conclude with psychosis from their point of view?]

- From the tape we had to know more. [Larsen: - But take the tape first. What are you listening to as you can not find?] Band is a few seconds. [There is confusion around Larsen said call is made to police from Utøya or recordings of the conversations.] Oh, you meant the talks? Larsen: - What are you listening for and possibly can not find?] We listen for the presentation is characterized by chaos thought or thought-out. We listen for if he can concentrate or if he dissolves. And listen for the content. [Larsen: - Tørrissen, you have something to add?] [Tørrissen: - No, the conclusion must be viewed in the aftermath of both the call and the total complex cases. It's strange when he describes what he does in relation to the KT and political themes. And the fact that it takes place on Utøya, with all the terrible things around. But I could not see anything thought-out. He was examined, taking the urine sample, there was an overall picture that said we did not find any specific evidence of psychosis.]

3:55 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - But we found many assessment issues in relation to psychosis, we had to do the assessment later. [Lawyer Larsen: - I would ask you to comment on a statement from the log. Apart from one o'clock half past one that night Breivik says "we are looking to create fear this is what is terrorism." How would you comment on it utssagnet?] It did well with the experience we had at the time, it would create fear. [Lawyer Larsen: - So I did a quick search but I found out that there were 8-9 police interrogation before Husby and Sørheim came into the picture. I think it is correct. I have gone over. Then my question is when you look at interrogations on video what you will not find there that makes you believe he is not psychotic. What do you look Aspaas?]

- We are looking for if he explains himself coherent if he concentrates on his answers to questions, how has the answer, mood, everything that goes into a status like that set. And the content all the way. [Larsen: - But when you saw the interviews, there are some scenes where you do a jump ... can you say about that? How little of what you are looking for can be found?] We found the review team, one of the Knights Templar were, we must see more of, we have to talk with him, read later questioning, the fact things were more (...) (.. .) No, I did not. The most remarkable was how everyday he was in some way. If it were not the circumstances surrounding it (...)

- [Larsen: - But he has latency .. Is it any thought ...] We do not find it, but agree with the other experts that he had much at heart. By turning on a tap. I would say at the hearing of recordings from my own conversations, I hear my own voice probably less than usual. Much of the heart, spoke at length and much detail. [Larsen: - Is the findings in relation to a schizophrenia diagnosis, having a lot to say?] Then it would have been more of it and moved in leaps and bad relationships. [Larsen: - Was that it?] We did not find what that is. He followed digressions and would like to return to the political topics. Back to his project, but it was not difficult for interrogation holders to track down.

3:58 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Larsen: - When I asked you Tørrissen, what is your impression about these eight interrogations? What do you look for?] I was looking for how the relationship is. Aspaas has said that we look for how he manages to say things, context, interruption, thought-out, things that seem strange or especially to be assessed against psychosis. But having such a wealth of detail and presentation skills after so many hours, it leads, at least until that afterwards, when the entire case the complex is known, he was then as now. I considered him not psychotic and I do not now.

4:03 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - [Lawyer Larsen: - I've really only two questions left. One is what we have heard the first few have considered. There is no question that he made his debut with psychosis on 22 July. He has been a development in a five-year period. An untreated schizophrenia for five years. What is the most likely development in untreated schizophrenia before 22 July?] There are different forms of the course and before neuroleptics are a few who came out as well. But what one can wonder is if he has gone and been psychotic for years and it is not caused symptoms that makes some people think, "Now we have to do anything to get treatment." One could imagine that if this were the delusions would resulted in situations that would demand some form of action. Here it seems that he has begun to talk about the political projects and here fellow said, "relax with it there" and he has taken corrective.

4:04 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Larsen: - As then becomes, when you see him on video the next day and days after that, he had a schizophrenia-development that should have been for five years and found no findings. How is this connected?] We have tried to explain why we do not see this as a paranoid schizophrenic, so has our colleagues described the development. I find little consistent to go for years without being questioned by the environment. It may be years before anyone is sent to the health care system. I have worked up north in a small municipality, which I know well to a family there, (...) I actually did not know he was sick, but he was very ill. Another had lived in the attic of Lyngseidet for 20 years. It shows that there is a protection structure. He has been in contact with the mother and others, and that no one should have discovered it, is very unusual. [Larsen: - Can you qualify the view. How far down in. ..?]

4:06 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas: - For me it is very unlikely and we have concluded that we have done, and it follows implicitly that we do not think that he has a paranoid schizophrenic. [Larsen: - Finally, I will see if you can comment .... We heard two things from the police officer NN, he answered Arntzen asked whether he knew what he was doing, and then replied, NN "yes". Judge Heather also asked Breivik, now this was a little long - sorry, if he remembered if he ate that day, and when told that he breivik buttered sandwiches, baguette with cheese and ham, which he would have on Utøya. Does it fit in anywhere?] I do not think we should put too daignostisk my emphasis on the cheese and ham ... [Larsen: - No, but his relations with the world?] He knew that he did acts that killed people and that was against the rules of society. He has not hidden the fact that he knew that it would lead to suffering and sorrow.

4:06 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Larsen: - I will stop there, please.] [Holden: three small questions. The first is the forced observation. I noticed Torrissen statement that it is "once in a lifetime" to not detect a psychosis in 21 days.] It is a relatively long time in psychiatry. If you go into active personnel, you will discover the psychosis quickly. [Holden cites Malt said that three weeks of observation is not sufficient to detect psychosis.] We have confronted Malt and without saying anything more about his assessment. I do not know how much he has been in acute psychiatry. There is something to go in and assess at a given time. We are trained as emergency psychiatrists. And it's rare I can not decide in ten days of observation.

- And I had a scientific study on it, and it took four and a half days to determine that the criteria were met. [The prosecutor Holden: - So I have a question in the light of Elgesem question of Knights Templar. Then I'll just read you what I took note of the question to the Tørrissen. I have quoted me the following answer: If the lack of delivery was accompanied by an assignment, there may be a grandiose idea, is it right or wrong understood?] It did not sound quite familiar. There must be no to that. It is possible I have missed a question. I go based on the theme of an imaginary surrender. If one thinks that it is purely imaginary and that he has a mission to write this and it also is an imaginary and not real, I would call it a grandiose delusion.

4:11 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Holden: - And third, to questions from attorneys Larsen where it was talked about living with a possible schizefreni it would be to expect that someone noticed and responded. Have you considered the statements from the mother, as is shown in conversation with Husby and Sørheim. Here, of course, for example, "I thought to m, holding him to be completely crazy" it says reproduced page 80 Is it a reaction that may be worth noting? [Aspaas: - Yes, it is clear that the mother has had a concern, we know from the interrogation. But she has used other words in the past.] Of course it is worth noting that sentence which we have considered in a holistic perspective. Was it actually a withdrawal form in schizophrenia degree? The answer is no, not in our opinion. Then, you are left with anabolic steroeioder, a conflict-filled relationship with mother. But he has no positive psychotic pages that the mother has taken hold, except that a face mask.

- So she's healthcare as far as I had though, and maybe she had some knowledge about it, what do I know. But it is the total rate ingested. There is nothing more than the few sentences there, also the rest of interpretation. It is not so common with so limited inforamsjon. If one says that he has paranoid schizophrenia, as has been also active symptoms. Something other than a treating schizophrenia with negative symptoms and no positive symptoms. But here it is interpreted that he also has positive symptoms and that no others with it, it .... [Aspaas: - What we can say that we are enlightened oppfyllser not schizophrenia criterion.] It could have thought that there are things you would like to pursue so it is important information but it does not provide enough basis to diagnose schizophrenia.

4:13 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - [Hein Bæra: - When the prosecutor ask you to interpret some of the statements in the complete Arent talks with the mother. I can tell you whether an assessment of whether it can be ruled out as the defendant himself says that, if the mother was in shock over his son.] We know that she was in crisis and that she was in a difficult situation. Aspaas: - There are many things that can play a role, and it is the person himself.] [Hein Bæra: - And she has not heard.]

4:13 p.m. Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - Have the members any questions. [No one has that] will allow you to make your comments Breivik.

4:14 p.m.Behring Anders Breivik: - I have a few comments to you and the court. And I have a question actually, or I wish to inform you that on 22 June, I wish that you set aside one hour for the final remark. I doubt that I will use that much, but it might be nice to have that time. There is, first, quite sad that the Norwegian rettsspykiatriske scourge has managed to bargain the matter. It should have acted on the family (...) and the political message.

4:16 p.m. Behring Anders Breivik: - For the 22 July is not about psychiatry, but Norway's and Europe's future. So there are some points that the prosecutor has admitted. Prosecutors have placed great emphasis on what I have conveyed me as a person in the compendium, but he had read the compendium he had probably seen that I have, on most occasions, referred to me as a foot soldier and a drop of water. And as for the lack of context, as the prosecutor shows very good understanding of the context of this, but ignore that for a smooth, not many weeks ago, four jihadists arrested on his way to kill more than 50 people in Copenhagen because of a karrikautrtegning.

- Because of a cartoon. And the context .... I have described the details through 1500 pages, can be seen in a little more importance than a cartoon. The argument is not valid. I would like commented on 200 points as I would refute, but I have no opportunity to do so today. [Arntzen: - Much of what you have been on before, Breivik.] There are many important points that have been taken up by Tørrissen and Aspaas .. It is the narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder.

4:18 p.m. Behring Anders Breivik: - This is serious diagnoses and there are usually that you get noticed by their omgvivelsene and to some extent fail to function in society so I'll go through some point. When it comes to dissocial so, it was assumed that the Aspaas thought I systematically tormented child when I was little. That's right, not at all, what I have explained is that "Skøyen Killers" is a minor phenomenon. It was inspired by "Teenage mutant ninja turtles" it was in the beginning when we started listening to hip-hop. Arguably hip-hop is an antisocial subculture and I've written about in the compendium.

- Something I think it is, but we have not actually bothered anybody, we could have listed threatening us with a couple of occasions. But we have never harmed anyone or threatened anyone. When it comes to tagging, and so on, to glorify the bad role models like you do in hip-hop culture, is certainly negative. Therefore I have written in the compendium about it. Other bad role models are "Sex and the City," which glorify (...). Those who follow Sex and the simple life ideals does not suffer from a personlighetsfortyrrelse. One just has to either go into the system failure it is to follow such antisocial subkulturerer.

- In the case of Liberia, the company Diploma Services, it was at some point after 2001 that I had come to the conclusion that it was possible to resolve our problems democratically. Therefore, I decided to act contrary to the system, because I thought it had a revolution. Therefore, all tax evasion and breach of rules after 2001 must be viewed in the context of 22 July. Another point, when other revolutionaries have broken the law, one can not put a diagnosis on them. For example, Che and Fidel Castro, when finanserierte their violence with robbery and looting, it does not mean that they are antisocial. But it is a revolutionary way of thinking.

- When it comes krenkbarhet goes well ... it is related to culture. Cultures in the world still has æreskodekser. Such as Japan and the Arab world. It is abnormally to not defend his own honor. When it is related to culture my fronts, it can not be diseased, nor is assumed that psychotic actions. In the case of fraudulent deceptive, it must also be linked to a revolutionary way of thinking. Also when it comes to contempt for others.

4:22 p.m. Behring Anders Breivik: - And it's true that I have in a way shown contempt for their own lives at least. When I made the bomb, on five occasions I almost died. I have never been beyond contempt and to others with the exception of 22 July. The basis for dissocial personality disorder it is very thin ground. As for the narcissistic pompous manifesto is made. It must again be seen in a marketing perspective. And I wanted to avoid media etttertid to characterize murder me

- So it's not a good indicator of grandiose ideas. So there are many examples that I was best in class and so on, which is not true. Over Driver businesses and talents - not very large extent it has been shown. The grandiose thoughts are related to 22 July. What I have said is that if I had failed in all areas, I had failed. But what I have said that because it was conducted, it may inspire others. All of my consideration of it is related to 22 July. There is therefore no basis for a narsisistisk diagnosis. (...)

- When it comes to always spend time on themselves, I have spent the last ten years of my people. All but me. All my money has puzzles to surgery. Not for myself but for the cause. When it comes to silly, I have not been much repeated in appearance since 2005. When it comes to the desire to circumvent høystatusmennekser, I will not claim that right-wing and national socialists are høystatusmennesker. For they are perceived as the world's scum so that argument falls on its own absurdity.

4:25 p.m. Behring Anders Breivik: - When it comes to the requirement of admiration. If you want the admiration one might do the opposite of what I had done. I am perhaps the most hated person. Of course, without a doubt. This has led to a demonization, the opposite of admiration. If they had had a diagnosis called machosisme, then maybe. For what I have gone through after 22 July has caused me much pain. In the case of exploitative relationships, it has not occurred. I have never used any. I lack empathy. It is a question of definition again.

4:26 p.m. Behring Anders Breivik: - The most emphatic action a man can do is to sacrifice his life to save his people then it becomes a question of definition. The exception is those I consider to be enemies, and they reckon I do not like my people. So I ... it is not very tactical attacking their subdiagnoser, yet I believe it is right Ehhmm .. we shall see. So there are two points I think it is fair to state court.

- It is, properly referred Aftenposten that Torgeir Husby in 2009, the 18.03, has made the following statement: "Criminal acts of psychotic individuals are characterized by poor planning, impulsitet and violence." And in its opinion in Dagbladet 240.12009 Husby has stated "I believe a person who is criminally insane must appear to be psychotic for everyone."

- Tor Aksel Busch said Friday that at least he was happy that we got two expert reports, so sanity can be examined in its full width. Alta, he is glad the foundation which he has found it necessary to oppose what he really thinks. Prosecutors have always seemed embarrassed and irritated that their most recent report concluded sanity. This case seems simple only after weeks of forensic psychiatry and not ideology, and we must not forget that the prosecutors have asked for forced mental health care. Bejer Engh has worked to protect the integrity of the academic Husby and Sørheim.

- And the way they have chosen to ask the witnesses to show that they are anything but objective. What Bejer Engh and Holden might think, is less interesting. It had been more interesting is to hear the Attorney General Tor-Aksel Busch. He is perhaps the most influential person in this case, when it is he who lays down guidelines for prosecutors. He may be the true judge in this case and his conviction is this coming Thursday.

- It is surprising that no Norwegian press has confronted Tor-Aksel Busch to a greater extent in that it is he who will decide the outcome of this case. Tor-Aksel Busch should explain to the court and everyone else why he was from day one has been working actively to make sickly and ridicule me for the purpose of justifying that he will put the claim mental incapacity on Thursday.

4:32 p.m. Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: - [Arntzen: - When it comes to tomorrow's program. It is counsel's day. Can you explain briefly what?] I have to notify the court that we receive inquiries from other courts. To take positive first. The witness from NRK, we are not going to fly. It is not appropriate. It took Elgesem up. However, it is desirable to keep prisons director Bjarkeid as a witness. (...) He can say something about the massive security Breivik is subject, in relation to making assessments of his state of mind. But we realize that it is not very popular, and we notify them now. We sent it out to the other aid lawyers. [Arntzen: - It does not take a position on right now.] Then I shall say little about the other program for tomorrow.

- And it's ... Yes, the program that matter will be tomorrow ... [Arntzen: - Heather points out correctly that it must first be discussed with the prosecutor list.] [Holden: - We can only take it now. We were a bit checkmate now, and we stand behind the request from counsel.] I did not mean something overumpling. We received this e-mail now while we've been sitting here. I apologize for that. But when it comes to tomorrow's undisputed program, if I can call it that, there are two of the survivors also Holen and Winje. And we begin with Tor Østbø from the survivors of the ministries, the lawyer is Siv Hallgren, and the latter is Kirsten West house, the mother of Havard-lived house. There are two witnesses who Holen and Winje would like to hear, then they started with a review of its report after that. And we're going to have a program where they stand together like this, and have prepared a powerpoint presentation.

- So we think that we have a relatively short day, and it surely does not matter. [Arntzen: - If we are to expand with a witness, that I realized that there was consensus.] [There will be discussion between Larsen and Engh how it is organized.] [Arntzen: - You can take it to her room, so we receive an e-mail. We aim to bring this witness tomorrow, so we have Thursday to the procedures.]

Arnzten thank the experts before she raises the right. The experts shake hands and have apparently a jovial tone. Defense team, aid lawyers and prosecutors also thank the experts.

4:38 p.m. Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - So to the experts as dimmiteres you after you have made a statement, but I think it's appropriate that you are here tomorrow. [Sørheim tells her to catch a flight] Is it possible with one from each? [Aspaas: - What makes you think that we should ...] I thought that one should observe the last day of submission of evidence. [Aspaas: - It is hard to imagine that we were going to say anything about it that is] Okay okay. [Holden thinks it may be beneficial that the Husby then present during Bjarkeids explanation] I do not know what witnesses will testify about, but something happens to the defendant's reaction tomorrow it could be interesting to get a professional interpretation of it. But Sørheim I will not hold you back from a plane. From their reactions I see that you refuse to believe there is no point in that you are in the morning. [Aspaas: - There are two sides. One is that which concerns it has relevance for us and then it has a practical side in relation to planning.]

4:38 p.m. Law Psychiatrist Terje Tørrissen: - I have also difficult to see that it has any impact. We kjennr observandens response patterns during presentation of autopsy reports and other reports. We find it difficult to see how we could contribute something then. [Arntzen: - If it is your assessment, you are now allowed to discharge. When I want to thank you all four for their participation in court. You've been very patient when it comes to long days. There, I thank you for. As we continue tomorrow at 9 am The court is adjourned.]

4:39 p.m. VG: - The court is adjourned and the trial 40 days are over. The court is again in the morning at 09.00.