Transcripts‎ > ‎

Anders Behring Breivik Court Transcript 2012-06-11 Live Report

Monday June 11 2012


8:40 Good morning from Oslo District Court.

8:40 The clock 09 is right for day 34 of the trial of Behring Anders Breivik after the terrorist attacks on 22 July.

8:41 The schedule will be seven witnesses in court. The first witness is Einar Kringlen as an expert witness and allowed broadcast.

8:55 Court participants are beginning to take their places in the courtroom 250 Prosecutors and experts is in place.

8:56 The defender Geir Lippestad have also come into the courtroom.

9:00 The defendant Behring Anders Breivik is led into the hall.

9:00 The court is set.

9:01 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - Lippestad, can you explain what will happen today?

9:01 Lippestad: - It is Kringlen coming now, so will all who have observed him on Ila on a conveyor belt until at 15.30.

9:02 Lippestad: - Two of they are treating health care provider. Breivik agree that they be released from confidentiality and open leads.

9:03 Kringlen to testify as an expert witness.

9:03 Einar Kringlen gives affirmation to the court as a private dedicated expert.

9:04 Defender Vibeke Hein Bæra: - Can you explain a little bit of your work?

9:04 Kringlen: - Throughout my career I have worked as a clinician and researcher.

9:07 Kringlen explain a diagnosis of schizophrenia, and how the symptoms suffered by those who receive it.

9:08 Kringlen: - You will find schizophrenia with insidious symptoms over several years, and cases where it appears acute.

9:10 Kringlen says that the prognosis may differ with those who can get it.

9:11 Kringlen now come in on how he has changed his views on whether Breivik was psychotic.

9:12 Kringlen: - What could talk to a psychosis, was the meticulous planning over time.

9:14 Kringlen: I got a completely different picture when I followed the proceedings in court. I felt that the first report had not taken account of the ideological conviction in Breivik.

9:14 The experts note while Kringlen explanatory. Breivik watching Kringlen.

9:16 Kringlen think delusions can be kept hidden, but not during an ongoing trial.

9:17 Kringlen go into the second psychiatric report and said that it confirmed his impression that Breivik is not psychotic.

9:20 Kringlen says there are many things that speak against a diagnosis of schizophrenia, and a list of why he believes it.

9:21 Kringlen says he does not understand why the forensic commission was not satisfied with the report of Tørrissen and Aspaas.

9:22 Kringlen concludes his introduction with how Breivik misdeed can be explained.

9:23 Kringlen shows that not all who participated in the Holocaust, was considered crazy.

9:24 Kringlen: - There are apparently no limits to human evil.

9:25 Bæra: - Thank you for a very good explanation. We have two declarations from different conclusion. It used different methodologies. Can you elaborate a little about the methods? How important is the observation?

9:25 Kringlen: - It is clear that there is an additional charge, to observe. If it appears somewhat psychotic there, you would have seen it.

9:26 Bæra: - The defendant has been for hundreds of hours of questioning by police. Avhørere has said he has always been the same. What does that tell you?

9:27 Kringlen: - It was only confirms the impression that there have been no other psychotic symptoms.

9:27 Kringlen says he does not think it is possible to hide the paranoid ideas, if you have it.

9:28 Bæra: - He has spent pompous, grandiose, and a glossy picture of his first presentations. What does that tell you?

9:28 Kringlen: - This says that this has nothing to do with delusions, but rather wishful thinking.

9:29 Bæra: - Did you witness that played with him in the game world?

9:30 Kringlen: - It fits so far in, he was not alone (what the witness explained).

9:30 Bæra: - Going from a strong political ideology and take action as 22 July. Can you tell us about it?

9:31 Kringlen say that this did not happen suddenly, and draws parallels with how Nazism developed as a phenomenon of time before the Holocaust.

9:32 Bæra: - How secure are you that there is talk of paranoid psychosis or paranoid schizophrenia?

9:32 Kringlen: - Paranoid schizophrenia can I go completely away from, there's no evidence that he has a paranoid schizophrenic or paranoid psychosis.

9:33 Lippestad: - Around this with bizarre delusions, you said that there are beliefs that are not physically possible.

9:34 Kringlen: - The usual procedure is that a delusion is bizarre. If however, I engaged in criminal activity and feel that the police are aggressive, there is a suspicion that is natural, but not bizarre.

9:35 Lippestad: - This function. What one thinks of when discussing functional impairment in a person with paranoid schizophrenia?

9:35 Kringlen: - It varies.

9:36 Lippestad: - We know that Breivik has played games, from what we understand at a high level. He has made a bomb, which is difficult. Does that say anything about the functional impairment?

9:36 Kringlen: - Yes, it says that one can not have any function, when you do something like that.

9:37 Lippestad: - The way he performs the act is a proof that he's function?

9:37 Kringlen: - Yes, yes, very much.

9:37 Prosecutors Svein Holden: - This Knights Templar. You touched it. What do you have the basis for your assessment?

9:38 Kringlen: - KT is an order that he is a member. What I reacted to the first report was that certain things would happen when he came to power, and it seemed a little weird to me.

9:39 Holden: - What have you applied. The organization's existence or not?

9:39 Kringlen: - My impression is that I know little about this.

9:40 Holden: - Breivik has explained to us that the organization exists and that he was in Liberia and met a Serb. He represent the Serb at the foundation meeting in London afterwards. At the meeting, he was commissioned to prepare a Compendium of the organization.

9:40 Holden: - The prosecution does not share this view. Is it relevant?

9:40 Kringlen: - No, I do not think so. There are only two statements conflict with each other.

9:41 Holden: - Breivik has told us that it is through his membership in the organization that he has appointed various categories of traitors. He says the Utøya that he has performed an operation on behalf of KT. Through its membership in KT designates his legitimate targets and even act on it. Does it matter?

9:42 Kringlen: - It is difficult to assess the mental, we do not know for sure what is the truth.

9:42 Holden: - If we blame the tank assumes that there is no organization, but that Breivik argues that he has the right to designate targets and act. Is this relevant?

9:43 Kringlen: - It will be to discuss whether this is delusions or pompous speech, I do the others.

9:43 Holden: - If he invokes a nonexistent organization that has given him the mandate?

9:43 Holden: - Could it represented a delusion?

9:44 Kringlen: - I do not think I can comment on it more than I have already said.

9:44 Holden: - There is a question of fact that are contested. From the prosecution side. The times we have questioned about KT's creation. The veins have suggested that it has a purpose other than he himself explains, we have not had ear with him for it. Does it matter?

9:45 Kringlen: - We must keep open the Breivik is telling the truth, we can not know anything about.

9:45 Holden: - We must keep the possibility open that he is lying?

9:45 Holden: - How do we know if he lies or believe in it yourself?

9:46 Kringlen says it can be done with an in-depth interview.

9:46 Holden: - statement number one. What is the delusion they pull it?

9:46 Holden: - Is it his policy that is fundamental delusion as you consider the report?

9:46 Kringlen list of what he noted in the report to the Husby and Sørheim.

9:47 Kringlen: - They have not taken particular care to manifest, and is convinced that he is psychotic.

9:48 Kringlen think Husby and Sørheim was in a difficult situation than Aspaas and Tørrissen , as they did with the first report.

9:50 Holden reads the statement. Refers from the Breivik believes he can choose who will live and die, and that is civil war.

9:50 Holden: - Do you agree that it is the role he gives himself is delusion?

9:51 Kringlen: - He may well speak of a symbolic civil war, unless he participates in it. These are special thoughts, but I would not say that there are persistent delusions.

9:51 Holden: - Is it the ideology or the role he gives himself?

9:51 Kringlen: - The role he plays.

9:52 Holden: - You were in the time aspect. Forberedelsenens length and scope. A preparatory phase, from 2002 it will indicate sanity more than if it starts significantly later?

9:52 Kringlen: - I do not think sanity or non-accountability has so much to do with it.

9:53 Holden: - In court, he said the idea came about the same time of the meeting in 2002. But Husby and Sørheim he has said that the plan to execute people progressed as he wrote in 2009. This is one of the allegations in the report Breivik says is a lie, just to have added it.

9:53 Holden: - Does it impact on the sanity of the idea of the killings goes back to 2001 or 2009?

9:54 Kringlen: - The point here is that one must prove that he is psychotic, the time is less interesting in this context.

9:54 Holden: - In light of the points you've been on. This is a social withdrawal.

9:55 Kringlen: - We do not strictly what has taken place. There are indications that there may be something in there that this was a little conscious that he did not want contact.

9:56 Holden: - One friend explained that Breivik gradually withdraws. So there is a possibility that Breivik says himself that he did it to prepare for the operation. The declaration of Husby and Sørheim it says that the idea was executed in 2009.

9:56 Holden: - Has the time aspect in matter of sanity?

9:57 Holden: - It is a bit contradictory that he has said he retired to prepare, while the report says 2009.

9:57 Kringlen: - I would have thought that the idea has come before, but that has not materialized.

9:58 Holden: - This cognition and schizophrenia. You argued that the time-consuming and difficult preparations were an indication that he was not psychotic.

9:58 Kringlen: - One can distinguish between two forms of communication disorders. Overall, you will see that the schizophrenics have impaired cognitive abilities.

9:59 Holden: - Are there any?

9:59 Kringlen: - Not all but most.

10:00 Holden: - The diagnosis of paranoid psychosis. You said it was difficult to agree with the wording in the first expert uses that delusion on the assumption covers all his affairs.

10:01 Kringlen quote from the statement he has made where he goes disagree that Breivik's condition has been all-encompassing.

10:03 Holden: - We know that Breivik moved to this farm to have a place to build the bomb. Several friends testified that he was very concerned with ideology lately and had little contact. If the delusion is that he has given himself the role of killing category A and B be you. Is it that he move house relevant factors?

10:03 Kringlen: - It may be that, but I do not know if it is so relevant in this context.

10:04 Holden: - Set the delusion is the role he has given himself in the KT, it leads him to move by itself on a farm and plan and produce the bomb. For a layman it may seem like delusion characterizes much of his life.

10:04 Kringlen: - Depends what you mean, he works the by eating and work out.

10:04 Holden: - There is no information that he has allowed himself to lapse.

10:05 Kringlen: - It is perhaps natural from his standpoint. Others could reveal his plans, it may seem rational sets.

10:05 Holden: - Is it possible to act rationally in delusion?

10:05 Kringlen: You've got people who have delusions, and still work fine otherwise.

10:06 Lippestad: - If there are as many questions to report no two. We are already about to burst on the schedule.

10:06 Holden: - I apologize from the right that it is necessary to disclose this. But I listen to Lippestad and move to the second statement.

10:07 Holden: - Can you use what happened on July 22 to determine personality?

10:07 Kringlen: - It is perhaps a bit strained. To get a diagnostic category, you should have lots of it.

10:08 Holden: - Does it mean that one should not use the event when evaluating personality?

10:08 Holden: - Have you noticed if the last user 22 July events as a condition?

10:08 Kringlen says that if one uses the event, one can easily assess the person psychopath.

10:09 Holden: - What are the conditions of the past have been important to your assessment?

10:09 Kringlen say Criteria used are not God-given, but sat down by a scientific committee.

10:10 Holden: - You brought up some factors about the witnesses who have only had contact with Breivik after 22 July. Do we have any evidence from earlier in his life?

10:10 Kringlen says that there has been so much of it.

10:11 Holden: - From a layman's point of view. You're here to guide us. It may seem like the latest draft emphasizes that dyssosialitet may be the same as the first classifies as a sign of psychosis?

10:12 Kringlen go into that Breivik tagging and divergent traits are not interpreted in this direction by the experts.

10:12 Holden: - Then you just right and I wrong. This with the tagging, it is a good parameter for dyssosialitet?

10:12 Kringlen: - Now I'm no expert on tagging, but there are probably in the best environments.

10:13 Prosecutors Inga Bejer Engh: - These questions are unusual for the prosecution. What we baler in this case is whether it is delusional or not. You said something about how the person responds by going in the military or be sullen.

10:13 Kringlen: - Not at all, but in many.

10:14 Engh: - You had noticed that defendant was fit accomplished when he was examined. I have asked him lots of questions surrounding the creation of the network. Have you been present when and know how he reacted to it?

10:14 Kringlen: - I can not remember.

10:15 Lawyer Frode Elgesem: - The observation that was made. Is the time of observation in relation to two experts. Is it an advantage that it is late?

10:15 Kringlen: - It has not so important.

10:16 Elgesem: - What are we looking for when we will find out if it is a delusion that affect sane safety issue. In a situation is that one gets a message from an imaginary person.

10:16 Kringlen says that it is an auditory hallucinations.

10:16 Elgesem: - We can talk about pure lies, that is not a delusion. So you talked about a group of between about fantasies. Can you elaborate on this?

10:17 Kringlen: - Many people who have extreme political fantasies have fantasies that are not shared with so many others.

10:18 Bistandsavokat Mette Yvonne Larsen - Is Breivik misdiagnosed by two psychiatrists? Have you considered working methods of the two groups?

10:18 Kringlen: - Both couples are experienced, that you come down on different point of view is not as strange as you want it to.

10:19 Kringlen refers to how the two pairs psychiatrist has emphasized different aspects.

10:19 Larsen: - When you go out this way. You have the right psychiatrist himself. How many years?

10:20 Larsen: - There are differences in how these two couples have gone forward. Would you like to comment on the diagnosis based on your point of view?

10:20 Kringlen lists how often he has been, for the so-called Nesset case.

10:21 Kringlen: - It seems quite sought that one should be two independent who has not spoken to him individually (in Husby and Sørheim method).

10:21 Larsen: - You say this is experienced and reputable psychiatrists. What is the problem that they talk to him together?

10:22 Synne Sørheim raises eyebrows when Kringlen suggests that one may have influenced the other.

10:22 Larsen: - The first two interpreters Breivik's idea of ??civil war as a delusion.

10:23 Kringlen: - You have to ask him what he thinks about it.

10:23 Larsen: - Have you found out if they have gone into this?

10:23 Kringlen says he has not.

10:23 Larsen: - Can you briefly say something about how extensive a paranoid psychosis will provide an unaccountable safety assessment?

10:24 Kringlen: - There are weak indications that one can make that diagnosis.

10:24 Larsen: - What are the Symptoms you would expect that paranoid psychosis that would provide impunity?

10:24 Kringlen lists the symptoms, he would look for.

10:24 Larsen: - When you saw him two days. The real strength you can say that he was not psychotic?

10:25 Kringlen: - I have to constantly take my reservations, but what I saw in court is not the way a patient acts.

10:26 Kringlen: - I was amazed at how contrary flexible he was.

10:26 Larsen: - There are some tools you use.

10:27 Kringlen said he wondered how low Breivik scored in the so-called functional score.

10:27 Larsen: - Is PANS a tool used to reveal whether people are delusional?

10:27 Kringlen: - No, it's not so common.

10:27 Larsen: - Gaff. What do you respond to that, why not fit it in?

10:28 Kringlen: - One would have expected massive psychotic symptoms with a low score.

10:28 Kringlen: - The best means of getting hold of the patient, is a good conversation that criss-cross.

10:29 The experts do not want to ask questions.

10:29 Judge Lyng: - What is a neologisms?

10:29 Kringlen: - You make words that is preposterous.

10:29 Heather: - Do you have the reports found words and phrases that are neologisms?

10:30 Kringlen: - No, they seem like words that are not.

10:30 Heather: - In the part of his explanation. Did you hear the phrase that you think are neologisms?

10:30 Kringlen: - I can not remember it now, no.

10:30 Judge Arntzen: - Can you briefly tell us about the importance of action for a diagnosis?

10:31 Arntzen: - Can we conclude anything from the action?

10:31 Breivik looks blankly at Kringlen.

10:31 Kringlen: - I would not say that you can. In retrospect one can say that the person is crazy or deviant, but there is nothing that indicates it in advance.

10:32 Kringlen: - I would more see it as an expression of political opinion.

10:32 Arntzen: - Is it true that a diagnosis based on an observation?

10:32 Breivik confer with defense carry.

10:32 Kringlen go into how you look at the actions of a person you are considering.

10:33 Arntzen: - This deterioration. Husby / Sørheim writes that he had symptoms since 2006 with gradual deterioration. How will expect a development if not medicated?

10:34 Kringlen: - It is individual.

10:34 Kringlen is finished with his explanation.

10:34 The court pauses until 1050.

10:44 Kringlen ended his testimony with an irritation to vent about the use of the term that just psychiatrists: - There is not just psychiatrists, but good and bad psychiatrists.

10:44 Under the current schedule would witness number three started with their diplomas at 11 The explanation, however, to Kringlen took longer than scheduled, as witness number two, Eric Johannesen, starts his statement at 1050.

10:45 The court administrator, Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen, opened up to something beyond the normal time for the court today to have examined the witnesses, if necessary. Straight day runs normal to the clock 16

10:49 Court actors are trying to get back into the courtroom 250

10:50 The defendant Breivik be back in the saddle.

10:52 The court is set.

10:53 Eric Johannesen gives insurance. He works as a psychologist specialist at West Creek hospitals. He was released from his duty of confidentiality by the defendant.

10:55 Johannesen - I graduated from University in 2003. I have mainly worked with a wide range of mental disorders, including people with schizophrenia. I work one day a week at Ila Prison.

10:55 Attorney Lippestad: - Can you tell us about the role you and the hospital in relation to Ila and the defendant?

10:55 Johannesen: - We received an application from the municipal health services in Ila on cooperation on the assessment, suicide risk and possible psychosis. We who work in the specialist health service puts a diagnosis as a prerequisite for treatment.

10:56 Johannesen - I did an independent assessment, so we worked on finding a diagnosis, possibly based on such empathy failure and grandositet.

10:57 Attorney Lippestad: - Can you tell us more about the method of how you have worked and how often you have met the defendant?

10:57 Johannesen - I had my first encounter with Breivik 23 December. Then, almost weekly. A total of 20 calls. 12 calls, eight with Flikke. Most have lasted for about a half hour.

10:57 Flikke is the way the next witness.

10:57 Lippestad: - Can you tell us about what you have found?

10:58 Johannesen: - Our observations coincide mainly with the last appointed. We'd rather focus on the dianostiske work in case we had to disagree with the first report.

10:59 Johannesen - I tried a few Breivik on some tests, including IQ tests. He chose to turn down. The observations I have are mainly based on the calls.

11:00 Johannesen: - He has not shown signs of depression, anxiety or remorse for the deeds. He has shown little remorse for friends and families he has written about in the compendium. He is a bit tired and weary after long questioning, but said he is not tired.

11:00 Johannesen: - He has not shown any remarkable kognetiv failure. He has consistently shown good memory. Ability level is around average for the population, thus a good deal less than he did in the beginning.

11:01 Breivik smile when Johannesen said recently.

11:01 Johannesen: - He has some psychological knowledge about how he can use manipulation to promote their ideology. He has normal speech flow. I have not seen him in court, but I would think that it is slightly different than that of Ila. Here he plays a role, it is my impression.

11:02 Johannesen: - Social skills. We have had several diagnoses, we have considered. Asperger's is considered. We do not agree at all that he should have it or Tourettes. I have no suspicion of psychotic disorders or developmental disorders.

11:03 Johannesen: - He shows good ability to call. He shows good flexibility and nuance in certain topics. When it comes to ideology, he appears as a much more solid, which is not easy to discuss with him.

11:04 Johannesen: - My impression is that the knight figure he wants to appear, is not his natural expression. He plays a role he did not quite get to. He is a bit clumsy at it.

11:04 Lippestad: - Can you tell us more about that he does, tell us more about it?

11:05 Johannesen: - Apart from the health assessment and diagnostic assessment, Breivik has agreed that we explore more psychological understanding about why he did what he did. He has been very open on what strategy he has in court.

11:05 Johannesen: - He thinks of how he should behave to appear.

11:06 Lippestad: - A theme is emotionally avflatning. In court, we have not detected expression of particular emotions. Have you made up some thoughts about it, and what he has done?

11:07 Johannesen: - My impression is that related to ideology and objectivization I have not experienced that he has any feelings associated with it. I have the impression that he may have feelings and empathy for friends and family. He is not empathic person, but he has something. I had not believed in the beginning.

11:07 Johannesen: - As time has passed, I realized that the contact has become more and more like the person who has been described by friends.

11:08 Lippestad: - Can you tell us more about how this is expressed?

11:08 Johannesen: - Those he has given in the compendium. At first he said that it was to protect them. Later he observed that he could have solved it another way. Empathy sticks are not very deep, but there is something there.

11:10 Johannesen: - The sense of the expressions he has shown. At some occasions, I have taken up such smile. I think he gives good reasons to me why he smiles. There may be facial expression he sees as ridiculous. He had hoped and expected more than he has received. He has been greeted with less character murders than he had imagined.

11:10 Johannesen: - In relation to one smile, it was a reconstruction of the bomb. He smiles when he sees it. When I'm recording it, he said that it was not related to the bomb but something he saw in court. On TV I saw that he was somewhere else before he smiled.

11:11 Lippestad: - Can you say what you have found in relation to psychosis?

11:12 Johannesen: - We have not found anything around psychosis. But he has some extreme opinions and beliefs. I think there are other explanations for better understanding than psychosis. The fear of Norwegian culture, the expression of right extremism. Other things can be explained by grandiose notions.

11:12 Johannesen: - It is unlikely that he would prove anything.

11:13 Lippestad: - Have you registered something special about failures in Breivik, who has been conspicuous?

11:13 Johannesen: - It is not reported on it from jail.

11:13 Lippestad: - How he met you? Has it been difficult to establish contact?

11:14 Johannesen: - The formal contact, he is almost more than concerned. It is well in the label he is keen to show. He is a bit more relaxed there than what he probably is in contexts like this.

11:14 Lippestad: - Bizarre delusions, is there anything you have seen something?

11:15 Johannesen: - Not what we would call bizarre, but that he can be quite easy to manage on his own ego. Then you can hear him tell pretty amazing things about themselves.

11:15 Lippestad: - neologisms and his language in general, it is something you have registered around it?

11:16 Johannesen: - When I came into the picture, Breivik knew what was neologisms. All words that may sound funny, he stops up and explain what is and that there are some neologisms.

11:16 Johannesen: - It shows a little about his working memory. He manages to see itself from outside.

11:16 Lippestad: - The identity and possible ambiguous identity experience?

11:17 Johannesen - I believe he has created an identity he tries to show the world that does not suit his natural expression. It seems he also seems to have moderated. To me it shows that he has no social skills, including in relation to those he is trying to impress.

11:17 Johannesen: - He sees that this bir more comical than he had imagined. I do not see it as a sign of psychosis.

11:18 Lippestad: - So you do not see it as an expression of a psychosis. Have you detected any difference between "I" and "we", in relation to the understanding of identity?

11:18 Johannesen: - In the beginning he was more on the slide. Eventually, he has been more on the "I". He was long thought that what he says to us is leaking to the media, and he thought he could use us. But he has lnsket that we would leak to the media, but we have not done.

11:19 Lippestad: - Can you say something about how confident you are that there is no psychosis in Breivik?

11:20 Johannesen: - How secure can you get? It's horrible things he has done. It's hard to say 100%. We are completely convinced. We are on the blood alcohol level for it to be.

11:20 Defender Bæra: - If Breivik had paranoid schizophrenia, what would you do?

11:21 Johannesen: - It is not given without that we should put him in or forced medication. If he had not wanted medication, there is no assurance that we had given him forced medication.

11:21 Johannesen: - Should he be sentenced to forced mental health care is not given that he was medicated.

11:22 Johannesen: - The ideology he has, I have little faith that can be treated.

11:22 Bæra: - In the period you have considered him, it has been a need for treatment?

11:22 Johannesen: - No, there have been no need for treatment or medication.

11:23 Bæra: - How have you seen him after a long straight days, he has been angry or aggressive?

11:23 Johannesen: - He is a bit tired and battered, but not beyond what one can expect. He was not angry or aggressive.

11:23 Bæra: - What happens when you are discussing ideology with him?

11:24 Johannesen - I am convinced that he has no ideological conviction. By some strange assertions, which we believe he can refine his understanding, he can use statistics taken completely out of context and say that he is interested in creating polarization in society.

11:24 Bæra: - But that's understandable, you regard it not as psychotic?

11:25 Johannesen: - He can say that it is not in his interest or provide you with that smile, if he gets stuck on something.

11:25 Prosecutors Engh: - When you got him into treatment, did you know what delusions consisted in?

11:26 Johannesen: - It was that he would be the savior, the king and the fear of Islamization and that it was an ongoing war.

11:26 Prosecutors Engh: - What about the alleged KT network, were you familiar with that?

11:26 Johannesen: - KT was also considered as a delusion, that it exists.

11:27 Prosecutors Engh: - This greatness his mind, how do you interpret it?

11:28 Johannesen: - My impression is that he was some where in the face of the first experts. That they confirmed it, and took off. I've seen it myself in conversations with him. In the first conversation with me he was very much that they had overdone it. It was important to tone down the knight figure.

11:28 Prosecutors Engh: - Why hides he?

11:29 Johannesen: - There is still something big and grand, but he hides it better. It becomes more of a cartoon character than a crusader.

11:29 Prosecutors Engh: - Do you get the impression that he had the right to kill?

11:29 Johannesen: - He has as part of the same ideology, defining external and internal enemies. He will be thinking of the extreme right. He has grandiose ideas about uniting right-wing extremist with different viewpoints.

11:30 Prosecutors Engh: - The fact that he decides that he must kill, how do you see it?

11:31 Johannesen: - It has been very little subject of our conversations. There has been little focus on ideology and deeds he has done.

11:31 Prosecutors Engh: - The greatness of mind he has, it is associated with a narsisstisk personality?

11:31 Johannesen: - Yes.

11:32 Johannesen: - He fulfilled the minimum criteria for antisocial personality disorder.

11:32 Prosecutors Engh: - This KT and the creation of it, there has been a theme?

11:32 Johannesen: - He claims that KT exist. I do not think of. I do not think he believes the fence, because of the smiles when he argues.

11:33 Prosecutors Engh: - Have you discussed anything about the tasks he must have been at this London meeting?

11:34 Johannesen - I think he masks the trFlikke were failures. It also seems more exciting to connect to this. What can not be investigated by the police, he put out as bait.

11:34 Prosecutors Engh: - Do you think he lies about KT?

11:34 Johannesen: - What is a lie? He's easy to accuse others of lying, while he is free from this. His whole operation will have a greater and more meaningful than if he is alone. He is committed to creating further fear. What he defines as opponents want him to live in fear.

11:35 Prosecutors Engh: - His explanation of KTS creation is because he wants us to be more afraid?

11:35 Johannesen: - Yes. But I also think he's lying about it to emerge as a more exciting person.

11:36 Johannesen: - Not to get into something, I think has helped to make him extremely. In that phase, I think he has become very radicalized.

11:36 Prosecutors Engh: - The fact that he presents himself as a knight on Utøya and incarceration meeting, you have thoughts on that?

11:36 Johannesen - I think most of what he has said in retrospect, I think he really planned. He has prepared for various outcomes.

11:37 Johannesen: - It is natural to think of other types of diagnoses.

11:38 Johannesen: - His ideology is important here. I truly believe that he has a strong ideological convictions and that it has been there a long time. He has enough desire that KT will be a network. That there is an existing network, sound a little strange.

11:39 Prosecutors Engh: - What do you mean by delusions, which are not bizarre?

11:39 Johannesen: - He has delusions that are not bizarre. We have all. But not psychotic.

11:41 Engh prosecutor reads out from the document that deals with one of the meetings Johannesen had with Breivik, where the specialist came in on what could be a possible delusion. Breivik related shares fall on world stock markets to themselves.

11:41 Johannesen: - Last summer, there had been a fall of world stock exchanges. It related to himself. When I talked some more with him about it, he saw that debt problems in southern Europe. But it was a pretty grandiose, but not psychotic notion that he should have affected the financial markets as it spread to the United States.

11:41 Prosecutors Engh: - What about feelings? Why is it that he seemed unmoved?

11:42 Johannesen: - He has empathy betrayal, but at first I considered it as stronger than I do eventually. The emotional contact he had with us was not of good quality.

11:42 Prosecutors Engh: - Is his behavior in court deviant, when we see his reactions to the killings?

11:43 Johannesen: - My impression is that in the planning, he has put himself into what he can do this. The relevant literature he has put himself in.

11:43 Prosecutors Engh: - Has he learned to restrain emotions?

11:43 Johannesen: - He is joined by more of what is going on than you might think. I think he uses a lot of effort to appear to be unaffected.

11:44 Johannesen: - It is not that he regrets, but that he can see that it is cruel.

11:44 Prosecutors Engh wonder if this could be rooted in a personality disorder.

11:44 Johannesen: - There are some congenital and experiences through life, which means that empathy has failed.

11:45 Prosecutors Engh: - From what you've seen ... You have not found Asperger's in him?

11:45 Johannesen: - He meets some criteria of Asperger. But we do not think he has it.

11:46 Prosecutors Engh: - What are the basic criteria in order to confirm a personality disorder?

11:47 Johannesen: - Diagnostic systems are quite inadequate and rigid. There are many who can function well in society, but that it is expressed in the family or at work.

11:47 Prosecutors Engh: - Can you call him conclude with personality disorders without knowing how he was before 22/7?

11:48 Prosecutors Engh: - Do you know if he has had narcissistic traits before 22/7?

11:48 Johannesen: - If we do not think that there is a psychosis, it shows he has had before. He has had narissistiske moves past, including when he stops in high school to start the business.

11:48 Prosecutors Engh: - Is there anything else than that he left school?

11:49 Johannesen: - It seems to me that he has been rejected by various groups he has tried to gain entry in. It also seems that he has been denied their idols, which Fjordman.

11:49 Prosecutors Engh: - Where is it in his story that we see it?

11:49 Johannesen - I am convinced that there has been uneven developments in childhood.

11:50 Prosecutors Engh: - How has his personality been expressed before 22/7?

11:51 Johannesen - I can not say where and when. Based on the statements he has about the various communities he's been in, we get an opinion.

11:51 Prosecutors Engh: - Is this something he comes on after 22/7?

11:51 Johannesen - I would be pleased with what's in the media to Breivik. He calls most of leftist extremism.

11:52 Johannesen - I have been looking for narcissistic points.

11:52 Johannesen: - Lack of empathy I do not think has been so strongly present in the past.

11:52 Prosecutors Engh: - Is there anything from his story before the 22/7 showing the dissocial?

11:52 Johannesen: - Business Operations for his playing on other people's illegal, is also one of the criteria.

11:53 Johannesen: - It is as far as he fulfills the requirements of dissocial personality disorder.

11:53 Prosecutors Engh: - What I wonder is if you take first place in Breivik and how he is after 22/7, or before it?

11:53 Johannesen: - We are exploring all this. We are not investigators.

11:54 Lawyer Larsen: - We are looking for if he was psychotic after 22/7. Have there been signs that he was psychotic?

11:55 Johannesen: - There have been signs that may be psychotic, but when explored further, it appears that it was not psychotic characters.

11:55 Larsen: - Can you say something about what it is characteristic of paranoid schizophrenia?

11:56 Johannesen: - My observations are not consistent with psychosis or schizophrenia.

11:56 Larsen: - What does a cognitive impairment, in their popular sense?

11:57 Expert Tørrissen : - You have also performed an MMPI. Can you tell us about it?

11:58 Johannesen refrained from answering questions Larsen.

11:58 Johannesen: - We have no expert role, but was almost when we disagreed with the initial report. He went on an MPI test. He was very keen to appear to be very normal. He went to the trick question.

11:58 Tørrissen : - Can you say more about the results?

11:58 Johannesen: - It is not possible to interpret the results, since he struck out on claims that it is customized response.

11:59 Tørrissen : - What is it like to test him, how do you see it? What do you use as well? Is it easy to test Breivik, as you know him?

12:00 Johannesen: - This test, he answered himself. I have not had him in a test situation, there have been more semi-structured interviews. He politely rejects what he did not wish to answer. He thinks carefully before he contributes.

12:00 Johannesen: - He is not so concerned sane safety issue as people think. But it creates more interest in the matter. I can see that the commentators on TV say it Breivik says they will say about how he appeared in court.

12:01 Breivik smiles broadly while Johannesen explains around Breivik that uses double-psychology.

12:02 Tørrissen : - When it comes to Asperger's, what have you used?

12:02 Johannesen: - We have sometimes wondered what in the discussions that there should be clear that we ask about Asperger.

12:03 Tørrissen : - When it comes to personality and diagnosis of grandiose ideas, what do you think about it?

12:03 Johannesen: - Personality traits have evolved further through adolescence. He sees that he has a father's unmet needs. He needs to locate the male.

12:04 Expert Sørheim: - Breivik had more empathy than you thought, you said. Can you give examples of how empathy is expressed?

12:05 Sørheim: - Does he cried or been upset?

12:05 Johannesen: - It is almost like meeting Hannibal. As he becomes more confident, he looks more his former person. He has not shown any emotions, but reflect on the emotions he has had here.

12:05 Sørheim: - Now I'm a little unsure what you mean.

12:06 Johannesen: - The first thing that strikes one is that he can play a lot of emotion to affect. I'm not saying that he is very empathetic, but that he has more empathy than I first thought. It's the little stuff interaction, such as if you are talking at once.

12:08 Expert Aspaas reads what Johannesen wrote in his statement, about the testing.

12:08 Aspaas: - How is the measurement of low validity?

12:09 Johannesen: - This is the only part that shows if he answers yes, no or random. It does not make it here. He has had steel control and responded carefully to each question.

12:09 Aspaas: - Can we trust this with solid internal consistency, or is it a manifestation of strategic replying?

12:10 Johannesen: - It supports the other findings.

12:10 Arntzen: - Have you discussed avemosjonalisering?

12:10 Johannesen: - Nothing more than that I have the impression that he has knowledge of how to avemosjonaliserer them. He has mentioned bushido-Code. He says he uses it a few times a week.

12:11 Johannesen: - He is not there yet, to put it that way.

12:11 The defendant wants a brief comment on the witness's testimony.

12:12 Breivik: - They include 22 July. Taking away 22 July also falls to a certain extent some of these diagnoses. I am glad that he did not think I'm insane. I show no mercy or empathy towards those I consider to be enemies.

12:14 Breivik says that he just wanted to get the email address of Fjordman, who claims he has never been rejected by someone in their lives.

12:15 The court pauses to watch 13

12:15 Judge Arntzen: - We must be prepared for a long day today. We are a witness in arrears.

12:16 Next witness at 13 is Arnhild Flikke. She had originally started his diploma at 11, according to the schedule.

12:59 Court participants are about to take 250 courtroom after lunch break.

13:02 The defendant is brought into the courtroom after the break.

13:03 The remaining five witnesses who will be in court today, according to the schedule.

13:03 It is Arnhild Flikke which is the first witness after the break.

13:03 The court is set.

13:04 Arnhild Flikke working in psychiatric outpatient clinic in Sandvika. Breivik is exempt from Flikke for confidentiality. She now gives assurance to the court.

13:06 Lippestad: - Can you tell us about your experience?

13:06 Flikke lists his work experience in the years before she became part of Ila team.

13:07 Lippestad: - Can you tell us about your work up to Breivik and Ila?

13:08 Flikke: - We are four people, three psychological experts and me, who is a psychiatrist. 30 percent of my job is related to Ila. Fridays are my Ila-day.

13:08 Breivik has been incarcerated at Ila since he was detained after his arrest.

13:08 Lippestad: - Why did you come in contact with Breivik 9 september?

13:08 Flikke: - There were 9/9, the background was that we had received a referral from the prison doctor at Ila.

13:09 Lippestad: - Can you as exhaustive as possible and explain what you found, and how you have considered a possible psychosis?

13:10 Flikke refers to the records the team has written, starting with the first meeting of the visiting room.

13:12 Flikke: - Where I talk with him as I preier to do. We could not say hello, he sits in handcuffs. One of the first thing he said to me was that he wondered what I as a woman seemed to meet someone like him.

13:12 Breivik looks down at the table in front of him while the Flikke explains around the first meeting.

13:12 Flikke: - I told Breivik that I have some experience already, and that it made it easier.

13:13 Flikke goes into detail on the interaction between the municipal health services and specialist services.

13:14 Flikke rattles off the various points of Breivik's background as she picked up during the meeting with him.

13:15 Lippestad: - How many times have you met him?

13:16 Flikke: - I've met him a total of ten times, a total of 21 hours. Nine times with psychological specialist.

13:16 Lippestad: - Based on your experience, it is a good number of meetings to form an impression of whether he had psychosis or if he could come to take his own life?

13:17 Flikke: - Yes, I think so.

13:17 Flikke: - I have concluded that he is not psychotic or suicidal.

13:19 Lippestad: - You were built as a specialist both before and after the first expert declaration came. What thoughts did you feel when two other experienced experts concluded psychosis?

13:20 Flikke: - I was very surprised, I must admit. I've heard Sørheim and Husby earlier and have great respect for them. I thought, Wow, maybe I really have been wrong!

13:20 Lippestad: - You held open the possibility that you had been wrong?

13:20 Flikke: - It is not an exact science.

13:21 Lippestad: - What was your conclusion after Johan Essen had been inside?

13:21 Flikke: - It was a way just the same. He concluded with the same diagnosis as me. So I breathed a little sigh of relief.

13:21 Breivik note on a note he sends defender Bæra. Speaks then briefly with the Bæra.

13:22 Lippestad: - You collected information from the department and doctors?

13:22 Flikke says she had many with him in the work of assessment, it was brought in information from the Department doctors and others.

13:22 Lippestad: - Have you read the expert reports?

13:23 Flikke: - Yes, both.

13:24 Lippestad: - One of the things we have struggles with the court's this bizarre delusions. Have you experienced it or something close at Breivik?

13:24 Flikke: - No, I do not.

13:24 Lippestad: - Have you talked to KT Breivik about?

13:24 Flikke: - Yes, pretty much.

13:25 Flikke says she thinks that Breivik was in a crisis initially, and that he probably has seen this.

13:26 Lippestad: - You've probably met someone with bizarre delusions. What would you have been looking for if you suspect that Breivik had it?

13:28 Flikke: - I was very concerned about this with voice hearing, it was the four expert witnesses as well. I asked him very carefully about this, and was also concerned about this Covered. At the same time one must consider facial expressions and body language. I landed on to conclude that he did not have it.

13:29 Lippestad: - Now you will probably ask the prosecutor in the direction of the Knights Templar. Breivik has said in various ways that he has received a commission from KT. What do you think about KT and possibly a psychosis?

13:30 Flikke: - I have talked with him a lot about where I have been very doubt. It is very strange and special, and at one point I saw the video he had made.

13:31 Flikke: - The same phenomena described there as in the compendium.

13:32 Flikke: - I have idehistorie foundation course, and is glad. It has helped me to have some ice in the stomach. Therefore I write in the first receiving the note that I did not record bursting real sense.

13:33 Flikke refers to Breivik concepts, and how she asked questions about this.

13:33 Lippestad: - About KT as an organization are or are not. Is it important for you in assessing whether Breivik has a psychosis?

13:34 Flikke: - In a way it is. I have been really in doubt, at first I thought much about it.

13:34 Breivik grins while Flikke tells what she knows about the Knights Templar.

13:35 Flikke says that she has registered himself with irony Breivik when they have looked at the issue of Templars.

13:37 Flikke comes with anecdotes about how she is perceived Breivik's use of numbers in the lecture notes and video. - He's not a statistician.

13:38 Flikke has seen what she describes as "a hateful glance" at Breivik when they talked about different kinds of traitors.

13:40 Flikke says that she has asked Breivik's alleged contacts, and that he has not wanted to reveal something about this. - Has he met them online or in real life?

13:41 Flikke imagines that he has met someone, and that they may have made a kind of covenant.

13:42 Flikke: - But how much he thought of the name and clothing, it is interesting to look at the differences in what he says in the lecture notes and video. There are different denominations.

13:42 Lippestad - I know you talked a little about what he thought when he was on Utøya. We know that he saved two people. Can you give us your reviews about conversations you had with him about these things?

13:43 Flikke: - It has been natural to ask questions in different ways. My inner picture of this has changed in the process.

13:44 Flikke: - It has come to the court that he felt again in one of those he saved.

13:45 Flikke: - Was it instinct that he saved the child, I asked him.

13:46 Lippestad: - In one way or another it makes sense to talk about empathy in the two cases?

13:46 Flikke: - He saved some, but stated that he would kill everyone. In one way or another it makes sense to talk about empathy.

13:47 Lippestad: - Have you registered something about failures in relation to psychosis?

13:48 Flikke: - We appear're all that different. There are many experiences of a life, I've tried to focus a lot on this, the memories he remembers.

13:49 Flikke: - We found it not as the right to contact Breivik's father and mother, it would be completely wrong.

13:49 Flikke: - He has changed a little bit about how he responds.

13:50 Lippestad: - Every Friday, you have concluded?

13:50 Flikke: - That he is sane, if you want to use casual language.

13:50 Prosecutors Inga Bejer Engh: - You said accountability is a very difficult question. Why is it that in this case?

13:52 Flikke: - Because it is a question that it is difficult to assess psychosis / no psychosis in Breivik. He has an overview of a lot, when he manipulates, and is very difficult - just like Hitler and Stalin.

13:53 Engh: - To consider an eventual real shortcoming that share many opinions with which many believe is a real shortcoming. What complicates it?

13:54 Engh: - Some of your reports is contained in Statement No. 2

13:54 Engh read from the report.

13:56 Engh: - When you take hold of his views on their role. What are the anchors you in the right extreme environment?

13:57 Flikke: - He switches a bit. My overall impression is that he is both foot soldier and a ruler, but not as a delusion. I see it more as a daydreaming.

13:57 Engh: - What about his belief that he has the right to kill for their case?

13:58 Flikke: - On Utøya he chose who he pointed out and pointed at.

13:58 Engh: - Does it matter if he is alone?

13:58 Flikke: - On Utøya he is alone there and then he chooses and in his omnipotent state.

13:59 Engh: - His thoughts that he has the right to kill, experienced not as a delusion?

13:59 Flikke: - No.

13:59 Engh: - How can you determine whether a person has a delusion, when the delusion sounds plausible out?

14:00 Flikke: - When I answer on my own, I make my own opinions, drawing together all the pieces.

14:03 Engh: - Is it completely irrelevant if I say that KT does not exist and his role does not exist? He maintains the its history. Does he think this? If he believes in this, what does that say about him?

14:04 Flikke: - I do not know if I can make you much wiser. The only thing I can be reasonably sure of is that he has met with some people.

14:05 Flikke: - Imagine that you have been on a journey three places, and written diary from there and come home and tell about your trip. And then you come into this later, and think that it was not how I remembered it.

14:05 Engh: - If I was on vacation a decade ago, I would not have thought I was a princess traveling to Mallorca.

14:06 Engh: - Does he know that the trFlikke do not have anything with the creation of KT?

14:07 Flikke: - I think he knows very well what he has done.

14:07 Engh: - What he says about KT. Is it a reality for him?

14:08 Engh: - You have concluded with personality disorders. Do you know if there are sure signs of personality deviation prior to 22 July?

14:08 Flikke: - It is an incredibly difficult question, especially in this case.

14:09 Engh: - Have you seen if there is history on the one who says this has been sustained?

14:09 Breivik look away when Flikke mentions Breivik's mother.

14:09 Flikke: - A few things, I say. I have asked him many questions from time SSBU, when he was four years old. He does not remember any of it, and have explained a little different.

14:10 Engh: - In order to clarify his personality any discrepancies prior to 22 July. Have you received information from others that support that he has had personality disorder prior to 22 July?

14:10 Flikke: - I was happy to see what your friends have said about this.

14:11 Engh: - His thoughts about themselves and grandoisitet is that he makes uniform and medals? It is violent? If this is the expression of his personality, would you expect that he has had the effect of this before he moves home to the mother before 2006?

14:11 Flikke: - Yes, it will be yes.

14:12 Flikke: - The only thing that came out later on, is that he put mustard in the anus of a cat.

14:13 Lawyer Siv Hallgren: - Do you feel that he is empathetic?

14:14 Flikke: - Yes and no. One day I came down, I hurt my thumb, but he was not very focused on it.

14:15 Flikke says that she experienced Breivik answers to test questions that honest.

14:15 The judges communicate with each other on a sheet.

14:16 Hallgren: - He will probably want you to see him as sane?

14:16 Flikke: - He has the achievements.

14:17 Hallgren: - You said he asked what had happened to your hand. Was there follow-up questions about it?

14:18 Flikke: - No, but I said a little short of it. He was completely normal passionate about it. If he had Asperger's or was psychotic, he would have reacted differently.

14:18 Lawyer Frode Elgesem: - Since you have talked a lot with about 22 Breivik July. Can you indicate what are the driving force behind his?

14:20 Flikke: - It is a complex question. Much ideology, he will devote himself to his people. The psychological forces was that he probably wanted to be a big one that everyone would know about. And it was he had to.

14:20 Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: - How many people have participated in the Friday review, how many have seen him during the week?

14:20 Flikke: - Three reviews per week.

14:21 Larsen: - There are three health individuals who have assessed him every week. Do you know how many people in prison who have seen him in over a week? Do you know if prison officers have the skills to see the kind of behavior?

14:22 Flikke: - Yes, a lot. I've been a good deal below the "G". I trust you, I see it as a very important source of information.

14:24 Flikke says Breivik was set to do jigsaw puzzles with 1,000 pieces, as a kind of cognitive test: - When I heard that he had been able to do so rather quickly, I thought "oh, they was agreeing with me."

14:24 Larsen: - Three health care a week and a good number of prison officers a week. Is there anyone who has seen something?

14:24 Flikke: - I actually do not think so.

14:24 Larsen: - 26 July, a psychiatric nurse looked Breivik. How do you nurse?

14:24 Flikke: - He is very capable.

14:25 Larsen: - Do you think that the prison doctor is able to assess whether Breivik is psychotic?

14:25 Flikke: - Yes, definitely. I have seen many times.

14:25 Larsen: - What do you think that your colleague believes that neither Breivik believes in KT?

14:26 Flikke: - My comment is that you can call it a lie, if you look at the name for it, and the clothes are like that. But if you ask about it pykologiske, it's not a lie.

14:26 Larsen: - Can you say anything about why he is not found psychotic? What is it you have not found?

14:27 Flikke: - A lot of things in my journal, I have explained it.

14:28 Flikke: - If he had started talking to me that he was a regent or Jesus in a way that made me think that he had entered.

14:29 Judge Arne Lyng - I understood you that it was difficult to diagnose at Breivik. Have you ever been in doubt whether he was psychotic?

14:30 Flikke: - No.

14:30 Heather: - What do you think has been so difficult?

14:31 Heather: - In terms of how difficult it is to make a diagnosis. Is the diagnosis in expert report number one that creates the problem?

14:31 Flikke: - Of course, it is one of the problems.

14:31 Flikke is finished with his testimony.
14:32 Breivik: - I am glad that Flikke does not mean that I am insane. But there are serious allegations that I have two personality disorders. It prevents a person to function socially.

14:32 Breivik: - When it comes to the sight of myself. I have commented on that very much is related to 22 July. If I had failed, that the car had exploded on the way to the government quarter, had not I been here.

14:33 Breivik: - It is linked to the uniform, which is a suggestion. Again linked 22 July to the two disorders. It should be isolated in the period before and after. The definition is very thin grounds.

14:34 Breivik - This was a suicide operation I did not expect to survive. How much attention I got after having died, would play little role.

14:35 Attorney Lippestad account of the four witnesses remaining. I think we have to spend some time on the next witness, the three then you can go faster.

14:35 The court pauses until 1450.

14:47 The Court has spent more time than planned in the first three witnesses. Next witness is Maria Sigur Jónsdóttir. She was going according to schedule began his testimony at 13

14:50 Court participants are about to get into the courtroom 250

14:51 The defendant is brought into the courtroom after the break.

14:52 The court is set.

14:53 Maria Sigur Jónsdóttir gives assurance to the court. She is a physician at Dikemark hospital.

14:54 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - I am a psychiatrist. I work for regional security department at Dikemark.

14:55 Defender Bæra: - 10/2 years decided the Oslo District Court that it should be made an obsessive observation. Can you tell us about your role?

14:55 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - My role was technical director of the observation team. Before the observation started, I planned with the prison management hvodan it should be implemented.

14:55 Bæra: - How did you compare the team?

14:56 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - It was desirable to have experienced people in the team. It was ultimately a team of 18 people. Nurses, psychiatric nurses, nursing assistants, clinical sociologist, psychiatrist and psychologist.

14:56 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - The average experience of the team was 21 years in psychiatry.

14:57 Bæra: - It appears as a solid knowledge from experience.

14:57 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - These are the professions that are represented in psychiatry.

14:57 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - It varied from six to 34 years of experience among team members.

14:57 Bæra: - Can you tell us about the other frameworks for observation?

14:58 Bæra: - Was the scope satisfactory, and the time frame?

14:58 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - None of us had done this kind of observation in a prison. It set a framework for how it could be implemented. Ila was responsible for security. We could not have supervised the night when he had to sleep in his cell. The framework was satisfactory alleles.

14:59 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Legislators have said that you should be able to clarify a serious mental illness within ten days. And you can ask for ten days. In my assessment, we got enough time.

15:00 Bæra: - At this time you were put in charge of the team, you had met the defendant?

15:00 Sigur Jónsdóttir - I had met him 24 February. We had the start of the observation 29 February.

15:00 Bæra: - The existence of an expert evaluation. Can you tell us about the start of the work?

15:01 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - At the start of the work we had a review of how we should go through. It should describe the possible symptoms. It should be the focus of this.

15:01 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We had two meetings to go through the general. There were some who had not participated in such an observation, since it does not happen very often.

15:02 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We had to hold preliminary meetings with the experts. We clarified what they expected us to do. They wanted us to find out whether there were psychotic symptoms in observanden. And how we were going to work every day.

15:03 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We should try to get the most ordinary day. Physical activities may take place elsewhere, and bleeding in the yard with us at present.

15:03 Bæra: - How much of the day he was spotted by people from the team?

15:04 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He was seen generally from 08 to 21:30, except if there were discussions with health professionals, when he showered, was questioned or had conversations with a lawyer. It was also the observation through the cell door every half hour throughout the night.

15:04 Bæra: - How did he to you?

15:04 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - When we came to visit his 24 February, he welcomed us. It continued with the rest of the team. Throughout the period, he collaborated with us and answered questions so we asked them.

15:05 Bæra: - How did your observations?

15:06 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - It was very important for us in the team that we should not discuss symptoms or absence of them, not diagnoses. It can be a pitfall because if you look at it in light of the diagnosis.

15:07 Bæra: - Not to go in the confirmation trap ...

15:07 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - If someone began to discuss the diagnosis, we should pull them away from the track.

15:07 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Breivik was pretty clear message about what the observation is such that he was aware that we were not bound by confidentiality.

15:08 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We observed that he was well informed. He understood the circumstances. According to. memory, he showed good long-and short-term memory.

15:09 Sigur Jónsdóttir - He showed good concentration and be able to talk at length about the same topic. He could talk to several at once and remember what each one said, and use the input to further discussion.

15:09 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He had a normal response to questions. We found no evidence of perceptual disturbances.

15:10 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Yes. Hallucinations and perceptual disturbances are within the same. He had nothing like that, or we did not suspect it.

15:11 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - The short version is that in the final meeting before we met with the experts, we took an inventory of what people thought. No one saw what others are expressed. Of the 17 present believed 16 that he had no psychotic symptoms or psychosis, one was unsure.

15:12 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We found no delusions.

15:12 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - What is the reason that he has a logical mind structure. He speaks at a normal volume, hold on issues when he speaks. His ability to argue on the basis of feedback from the team and take input from others.

15:13 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - This occurs without excessive affect. Also, when someone comes with suggestions he does not agree in.

15:13 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We check various sources about the words he uses. One finds a part of it in subcultures. Where people argue the same way.

15:14 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We believe that it therefore does not qualify for delusion.

15:14 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He can also refine their vision, even if he had an opinion on the subject beforehand. It is not easy for those who have delusions.

15:15 Bæra: - You saw no signs of paranoid delusions?

15:15 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Our experience with the observations is that the paranoid would like to make a copy of our notes and see what we write. It would not Breivik.

15:16 Bæra: - At this time he had full access to the media. How he looked at it?

15:16 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He was interested in seeing on TV. And watch the news. He was particularly interested to follow what was being said and written about 22 July issue. But he also followed by other things.

15:16 Bæra: - Was there any sign of paranoiditet in the way he interpreted the media on?

15:16 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - In our opinion, no.

15:17 Bæra: - Bizarre delusions has been a significant part of the theme. Did you talk about KT?

15:17 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - There was enough on the agenda. I will presissere that perhaps no team had read the first report. They did not want to be affected by it. According to. bizarre came up that talk when he was writing a feature article about the first report.

15:18 Bæra: - What is your interpretation of it?

15:18 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - No. Not at Breivik.

15:19 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He had access to a PC but it does not put the first two weeks. The last ten days he spent much time writing op-ed he had good concentration while he wrote. He could stay on even if it was interference.

15:19 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We could see that the document grew from a few pages to 21-22 pages in the last night we were there.

15:20 Bæra: - Breivik has even told how busy he is of ideology. What was his ability to talk about other things while you observed him?

15:20 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - There is no doubt he is concerned about his ideology. There were several topics that were discussed and he participated on an equal basis with others. One time we talked about Icelandic politics and history of Iceland, and Icelandic food. He asked questions on a par with the others in the team.

15:21 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - But he was most interested in talking about his political convictions.

15:21 Bæra: - Can you tell us about how the insulation and plug for work?

15:22 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - From the first morning discussion went pretty fast. It was not like that one was talking at a time. You could not see that he needed to screen for the sudden contact. He was just as easy to get the whole period.

15:22 Bæra: - How did he react if there were different views in discussions about ideology?

15:23 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - There were arguments in which he came with his arguments, but he could also say that he understood that they did not share his view. But that was what he meant. There was no argument.

15:23 Bæra: - So you sign new words or neologisms?

15:24 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - There were a few words, we were uncertain. We took up all the words somewhere. Although he used the new arrangement, it was not difficult to understand what he meant. He attributed the no second opinion, even if there are words used in everyday speech.

15:24 Bæra: - So it may be unusual word, but not in the sense you use in the classification of schizophrenia?

15:24 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Not in our opinion, no.

15:24 Bæra: - Can you say more about the observations?

15:25 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - When there are more to discuss the discussion in several directions. He managed to pull in the things said by someone earlier in the discussion later without being disturbed.

15:25 Bæra: - When you came to you not as evidence of delusions or psychosis, it was difficult?

15:26 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - I note that there are two legal experts statements, each with its conclusion. I have not read any of them.

15:26 Bæra: - If the accused was to have a psychotic illness, it would have given the right to treatment or therapy that was different?

15:27 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - If this was how we came to the conclusion that his psychosis had not only been my duty to inform the experts, but also the health department at Ila for initiating treatment. If you have a serious mental illness, people should be treated, whether they realize it or not.

15:27 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Psychosis is a serious mental illness.

15:27 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Neither I nor the observation team could see signs of psychosis.

15:27 Bæra: - It is a duty to speak up, you say.

15:28 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - I have noted the statement. It is not right to treat with anti-psychotics. One could have made some discoveries, but you can not find a diagnosis by treating with anti-psychotics.

15:29 Bæra: - Is there something you want to add, that you think is important that the court should know?

15:29 Sigur Jónsdóttir - I can not think of anything now.

15:30 Lippestad: - You said Breivik tried to recruit some of you. What arguments he used, how he tried to recruit you?

15:30 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He said he would really like to convince some of us. It was through discussion, not the other way.

15:31 Bæra: - The question of empathy has been much discussed. To what extent can you say something about Breivik's expression of empathy, and any awareness of their own emotions?

15:31 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - In accordance with. emotional reactions, he showed little. With the exception of his use of humor and could laugh heartily himself. We believe that he is not emotionally blunted.

15:32 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - When there was nothing in the papers about 22 July, several marked that he had emotional and movement-related reactions. We were there when the indictment came on the TV. He was more concerned about the charges, but the description of what had happened.

15:32 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Breivik was more interested in technical things, how the incident had been as he perceived it.

15:33 Bæra: - Could have been a technique?

15:33 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He was supposedly there. He had allegedly been through this questioning.

15:33 Bæra: - Was he concerned about how members of the observation team was that?

15:34 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He was concerned that we had the best. If they had eaten. The passport that I had something to eat if I came late. Ensure that all were read in the newspapers. He was very attentive to us.

15:34 Bæra: - What do you think the possibilities are that he would be able to hide their symptoms during this observation period?

15:35 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - The possibility of his until it is small. Legislator expects us to clarify in ten days. Being under observation around the clock, all with a slip or other symptom. If we had seen something, we had begun to bore into it. It is unlikely that he would be able to hide a psychosis in three weeks.

15:35 Bæra: - Was an appropriate observation method?

15:35 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - In my opinion it was an important part of the study.

15:36 Prosecutors Holden: - You had not observed delusions. Discussed you KT?

15:36 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - There was barely up, but was not a major issue.

15:36 Prosecutors Holden: - What about the reasons why he was right to kill?

15:37 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - It was not something we discussed. It was not in the mandate. At the same time the question of human dignity on which some of us believed that all life was equally important. First he said no, later said he disagreed.

15:37 Prosecutors Holden: - If it is a delusion in the wake of these questions. Would you have discovered it?

15:38 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - To ensure that KT does not exist, one must have facts. If there is a small group called KT, it may be that there are. That's the problem. One must know the facts to know if something is a delusion.

15:38 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - In historical context, we talked about the Crusaders.

15:39 Prosecutors Holden: - In order to clarify the facts, how do you think it can best be done?

15:39 Sigur Jónsdóttir - I'm not sure that it can be done. Then you had to know everything he has done. Every single minute.

15:39 Prosecutors Holden refers to the psychiatrist Malts assessment of how delusion should be detected, that you have to go hard to work.

15:40 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Although it was a delusion, a delusion is not enough to call it psychosis. When you need more, and other symptoms.

15:40 Prosecutors Holden: - If there is only a delusion, one falls into the paranoid psychosis?

15:41 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - A delusion, I think is not enough to fall into paranoid psychosis either. Touch with reality should be around several factors.

15:41 Prosecutors Holden: - If we add that it is this delusion that gives the person the right to live or die?

15:42 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - There is not necessarily a psychosis. It is too narrowly.

15:43 Prosecutors Holden: - What are the factors to emphasize in both directions?

15:43 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - KT is not a topic that is entered on our part. If there is a performance, it had no influence on what he did three weeks. He pulled into never KT compared to what he was doing 22 July.

15:45 Holden prosecutor reads out from the blue diagnostic manual, and ask if it can be one or more delusions at Breivik.

15:46 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - A delusion in itself is not enough, if not all-encompassing. Jealousy can be a part of it. It is when it affects so people can not work in it daily. As long as you do not have problems functioning in daily life, it is not enough. It must be supplied realitietsbrist or function flaws.

15:46 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - When the KT is not an issue for three weeks and he works in the usual three weeks, I can not see that he complies with it.

15:47 Lawyer Elgesem: - Is it that KT does not exist consistent with that Breivik lie?

15:48 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - It is clear that during the observation want to appear to be favorable light. If it was important to him, he said something about it. If this is an important issue for him, he could talk about it as it suited the purpose.

15:49 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - We took that historic things were tailored according to what he would present. Some wondered if he would want us to psychotic symptoms, I think not.

15:49 Elgesem: - He is not medicated or treated today?

15:49 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - He was not medicated during the observation period. What is happening today, I do not know.

15:49 Elgesem: - Will it change?

15:50 Elgesem: - The judgment in itself will not change this?

15:50 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - If he is sentenced to forced psychiatric care there must be a reassessment of what it can be.

15:51 Lawyer Larsen: - How many schizophrenic patients do you see Dikemark within a year?

15:51 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - Between 20 and 30, who has it or suspect it has.

15:51 Larsen: - What is the most common course if he is umedisinert or untreated?

15:52 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - If it has been for several years, it would have been no signs of one or another area. One or another symptom. If he had psychotic symptoms, one would notice.

15:52 Larsen: - He started possibly in 2006, according to the first report. He was arrested 22/7, and developed schizophrenia. What do you think about it?

15:52 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - I had expected to see any symptoms. That, I believe that neither I nor the observation team found.

15:53 Sigur Jónsdóttir - I spoke with Flikke on the phone to determine if there was something we had to consider, but we do not discuss diagnoses or symptoms.

15:54 Larsen: - If we go back and make that assumption that he was schizophrenic. How will a prison affected it?

15:54 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - The most common is that psychosis is worse. Another thing is that the interrogations of up to ten hours, so there is a significant stress factor for the psychosis.

15:55 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - How that show more symptoms of psychosis.

15:55 Larsen - 16 of 17 were safe, one was unsure. Applied to the whole spectrum, the overall picture?

15:55 Sigur Jónsdóttir - I asked if there was someone who had seen signs of symptoms that qualified for psychosis. One of 17 were unsure.

15:56 Expert Aspaas: - Did you see any other things?

15:57 Sigur Jónsdóttir: - During the time spent with Breivik we saw nothing but the usual reciprocity in communication. He could adjust to facial expression showed second. Language was normal, was varied. He understood metaphors and proverbs. According to. socializing, he could adjust the pressure on the ballot in the normal way. We saw no ticks.

15:57 Judge Arntzen: - Those in doubt, what was the cause of the doubt?

15:58 Sigur Jónsdóttir - I seem to remember that there were that he did not react with feelings in relation to TV-seeing, others reacted.

15:58 Arntzen: - Observed you some form of meditation?

15:58 Sigur Jónsdóttir - He said he did it in the yard. But I do not remember that we observed something. It must have been going on in his head.

15:59 Court takes break to 16.15.

16:00 Before the break took Judge Arntzen up the need to bring three witnesses in the same area this afternoon. Lippestad replied that it led one witness only, so you could consider it. The judge acceded to this.

16:14 Breivik is entered in court again after what was probably the final break.

16:16 Alexander R. Flaata offshoot witness insurance. He previously worked at the Regional Security Department at Dikemark.

16:16 Lippestad: - I'll be as brief as I can.

16:17 Lippestad: - Tell briefly about your experience.

16:17 Flaata account of his work experience in recent years.

16:18 Lippestad: - The mandate was to assess the possible psychosis. Can you say what you found and how often you were there?

16:18 Flaata: - I was there a total of 60 hours, four double shifts.

16:19 Flaata: - During the 60 hours I can not say that I have seen clear psychotic symptoms. I was in doubt on one occasion.

16:20 Flaata: - The subject said that one could connect the brain to a hard drive. I thought quickly that it was not a delusion, but a future scenario.

16:20 Lippestad: - When you got the doubt. What method did you use to determine if there was a psychosis?

16:21 Flaata: - There were calls, we had several conversations and I discussed with the other. I see that observanden may have statements that can be interpreted as grandiose.

16:22 Lippestad: - You say that this was the only example. I understand that you agreed with the conclusion that there was no psychosis? How did you come to that conclusion?

16:22 Flaata: - We observed him through the three weeks around the clock. All have extensive experience, and has not been involved in cases where someone has managed to hide the symptoms for a long time.

16:23 Lippestad: - This conditional delusional psychosis. Discussed with the KT Breivik at any time?

16:23 Flaata: - It was not something I talked to him personally.

16:24 Lippestad: - Can you tell us about when you as professionals entering and shall determine whether psychosis. I assume that you are using call, way to sit on, etc. What methods do you use?

16:24 Flaata: - There are several methods that can be used.

16:25 Breivik smile when Flaata says Breivik was afraid to get too high IQ scores.

16:25 Lippestad: - When you talk to a observand for 21 days. What methods do you use to know if someone plays well or ill?

16:26 Flaata: - There are several techniques, one can be more confrontational. Initially, the strategy to be more open.

16:26 Lippestad: - Do you think you have used the techniques you possess as professionals to determine whether he played well, but was sick?

16:27 Flaata: - Yes, I believe, it. It has tests that reveal different things. We use primarily the clinical impression.

16:27 Lippestad: - Would you have expected to find signs of those 60 hours, if there was a psychosis?

16:27 Flaata: - That he was at least uncertain, but it was not.

16:28 Lippestad: - This team. Have you worked individually or have you always done updates on what you did along the way?

16:28 Flaata: - holistic, it has been to describe what you see, these observations have been discussed with the experts.

16:29 Lippestad: - Were you familiar with the first report when you started the observation?

16:29 Consequences: - It was the opportunity for an additional period. Did you feel the need for additional time to be confident in the conclusion?

16:30 Flaata: - Not to clarify it further.

16:30 Lawyer Yvonne Mette Larsen: - Have you seen paranoid schizophrenic patients?

16:30 Flaata: - Yes, many times.

16:30 Larsen: - did you use any other than talk?

16:31 Flaata: - No, it was an unstructured observation, so the mandate was.

16:31 Arntzen: - Can you briefly comment on the possibility to hide paranoid schizophrenia in relation to paranoid psychosis?

16:32 Flaata: - Paranoid psychosis is more short-lived, but when it comes to schizophrenia, there will be more things to look for.

16:32 Arntzen: - If the paranoid psychosis associated with a particular theme and do not touch the subject under observation?

16:32 Flaata: - Psychosis is much more than delusions.

16:33 Flaata finished his diploma.

16:33 Bente Sundby is the next witness. She gives assurance to the court.

16:37 Defender Bæra: - How much of the three-week period, were you present and active in?

16:37 Sundby - I was active in the planning stage to set the parameters. During the three weeks were not many days I had off.

16:38 Bæra: - What did you socialize with the defendant?

16:38 Sundby: - My main responsibility was to be a nurse manager in relation to documentation. Was in active interaction with Breivik every day I was present.

16:39 Bæra: - What are your observations in relation to the mandate you received?

16:39 Sundby: - The observation is that other process. Basically, we should have a special focus on psychosis. The first thing that is important is to create a good atmosphere to get the information we need. It would have been different had it not in jail.

16:40 Sundby: - Breivik was cooperative. Furthermore, we have the mapping guide how we assess communication, thinking and other areas where one can find on psychotic / not psychotic.

16:41 Sundby: - We went out wide. We are not corrected what he said. Gradually it crystallized the areas to delve into. Among other things, self-esteem.

16:41 Bæra: - So you have signs of psychosis, or were there episodes where you had doubts?

16:42 Sundby: - It is always exciting to begin with. At first he talked about the areas we were not familiar with, and we discussed whether it was psychotic or not. As the days passed, I was sure it was not psychosis.

16:42 Sundby: - He resonated adequate, etc. It was difficult to find any clear psychotic symptoms.

16:42 Bæra: - Did you experience this with the new arrangement?

16:43 Sundby: - He spent a lot of foreign words. He did not usually words we did not understand or he could explain.

16:43 Consequences: - What can you say about empathy?

16:44 Sundby: - He himself believed that he was pragmatic and case-oriented. He wanted to show that he cared about us. He was concerned about their own feelings, that they would make it difficult to carry out the events 22 July.

16:46 Sundby: - He says he controls his empathy and trained up to be empathetic. He rationalized emotions rather than to explain them. On the opposite side was that he feels sorry for some of the children of those he played World of Worcraft with. The second was that he was guilty of Rena neighbors who had been kind to him.

16:46 Consequences: - Is the conclusion that Breivik was unaccountable something that you are in for?

16:47 Sundby: -Actually it is.

16:47 Bæra: - Did you have enough time?

16:47 Sundby: - In relation to the diagnosis. I asked if he was not curious about what we wrote. Had he been really paranoid, he had been concerned about it.

16:48 Consequences: - Would paranoid or psychotic ready to fool you?

16:48 Sundby: - We can not be as world champions that we think we are never fooled. But are you psychotic it takes a lot to.

16:48 Prosecutors Engh: - Can you briefly summarize what it was Breivik that made you came to that conclusion?

16:49 Sundby: - How they think and resonates. Does he have a lot of associations, it is logical trains of thought. We saw no evidence of delusions or hallucinations.

16:50 Sundby: - He showed a good memory and good concentration. I taught him a game you have to think and concentrate you. We sit at one end of the room and play. He can also comment on what happens on the TV while playing.

16:51 Sundby: - Are you disturbed, so real, noticeable that in such contexts.

16:51 Prosecutors Engh: - What were you pushed him?

16:52 Sundby: - To be observed in such a setting, with 3-4 people present, will be urgent. We pressured him not.

16:52 Sundby is finished with his explanation.

16:53 The military is willing to waive the final witness, Thor Egil Holtskog.

16:53 The court agrees to apostasy.

16:54 Holden: - We have a hope that tomorrow we are trying to reach Torgersen before lunch. We hope to lead Alpha Kallon ready by 15:30 or 16:00

16:55 Judge Arntzen requested that we cut down the length of questions: - Straight to the point. We're so well inside the case that I think we have with us the most.

16:55 The court is adjourned and be back tomorrow at 09