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Anders Behring Breivik Court Transcript 2012-05-09 Live Report

Sources:

VG: http://vg.no/a/10070310

NRK: http://www.nrk.no/227/dag-for-dag/rettssaken---dag-15-1.8127549


Wednesday May 9, 2012 - Day 15

08.51 More relatives and legal aid lawyers are present in the audience. Straight psychiatrists Synne Sørheim and Torgeir Husby discuss among themselves.

08.53 Prosecutors Svein Holden and Inga Bejer Engh has entered the room.

08.56 Defenders Geir Lippestad and Vibeke Hein berries are in place.

08.58 Breivik is brought into the room.

08.59 A police officer unlocks his handcuffs and he sits down.

08.59 Defendant speaks with his lawyer, Geir Lippestad.

09.00 The judges come into the courtroom.

09.00 The court is set.

09.01 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - We have received a new expert.

09.02 Expert Per Hoff-Olsen of Public Health has taken place.

09.03 Police Superintendent Goran Dyvesveen shows an overview of Utøya.

09.04 He summarizes the areas he has been through so far.

09.04 Dyvesveen: - The latest reports which were presented yesterday, they were killed on Kjærlighetsstien.

09.05 There remain problems with the sound transfer to courts around the country.

09.05 Judge Arntzen says they have to take care of recording and making it available.

09.06 Judge Arntzen said the court pauses until 9:15 because of transmission problems.

09.07 Breivik is handcuffed again and led out of the courtroom. He speaks to his defenders a little on the way out.

09.08 It is not the first time the court takes a break to try to clean up the technical issues out to the local courts. This has happened several times earlier in the case.

09.21 The break was supposed to have been finished five minutes ago, but officials have not yet entered the courtroom.

09.21 The defendant is brought back into the room.

09.21 The judges come back.

09.22 Judge Arntzen: - So we continue where we left off, and I hope the system now in place.

09.23 Police Superintendent Goran Dyvesveen in NCIS repeats the summary, which shows which areas of Utøya court has been through so far.

09.23 Dyvesveen: - Now we left off just south of where the ten dead lay. There were five who died, one of which was found in the water. [Dyvesveen now shows a snapshot and a picture pretty closely at how the five were found]

09.24 All five were transported to shore and were not there when the crime scene investigation began.

09.24 They are marked differently in the picture to show that they were moved.

09.24 Dyvesveen shows an aerial photo of Utøya with a white square around the area he will deal with.

09.25 He points to the place where a person was found in the water.

09.25 Dyvesveen: - Here were the ten we looked at yesterday. We should look into this slope.

09.25 Dyvesveen now takes to the area, the slope down to the water, just south of where the ten killed in Kjærlighetsstien lay.

09.25 Dyvesveen: - Next picture is taken from the water, to illustrate how steep it is there. There is a difference in height of about 13 meters.

09.26 Prosecutor Holden: - And this trail down to the water. Was it natural to move down to the water here?

09.26 Dyvesveen: - It is not natural to move down to the water at all. I would argue that it is so steep that you can not get up unaided.

09.27 Dyvesveen: - I shall now describe Sondre Dale Furseth, born 19 February 1994. He was found in the water so the white dot shows. [Dyvesveen shows image of the water and the white dot some distance into the water].

09.28 Dyvesveen shows an aerial view of the escarpment, with Skolestua top of the image.

09.28 A white circle shows where Dale was found.

09.29 Prosecutor Svein Holden has information that Olsen was found about 30 feet from shore.

09.30 Dyvesveen: - All indications are that he was shot in the area of ​​the escarpment.

09.30 Professor Kari Ormestad: - Sondre Dale Furseth had four gunshot wounds. [Ormestad tells us in detail from the autopsy]

09.30 Then the court medic Janice Vege takes over. Vege shows on the gray dummy where the shots hit.

09.31 Vege: - Sondre died of gunshot wounds to the chest, and it has been immediately fatal.

09.33 Lawyer Gunhild Bergan: - Sondre had plans for his life. Engineering education that he himself would lead to jobs in the North Sea so he could concentrate on music. Sondre understood solidarity principles. He was thoughtful and inquisitive and on his toes. Inclusive. Always a wonderful mate to have around. He was a reflective guy, a thinking musician. He lived for the finest ideals of rock music and culture. The progressive, not destructive. For that he was a victim. He was also a member and active in nature and youth, Film Society and the backgammon environment. He wanted to be a part of everything.

09.34 The court now continues with a review of the autopsy report to Simon Saebo.

09.34 Police Superintendent Goran Dyvesveen: - Simon Saebo, born 25 May 1992, was from Salangen in Troms. Simon Saebo died on the cliffs in Kjærlighetsstien. [Dyvesveen image shows how Saebo was found].

09.35 A white circle in the diagram shows where he was found.

09.35 Dyvesveen from NCIS undergoing details about Sæbø's death.

09.35 Professor Kari Ormestad: - Simon Saebo had two gunshot wounds.

09.36 Vege: - Simon got three days of being 19 years old.

09.36 Vege shows the gray dummy where the shots hit.

09.36 Vege: - Simon died of bullet wounds in the chest, leading to rapid unconsciousness and death.

09.37 Lawyer Nadia Hall: - Simon had very broad interests, but sports and outdoor activities were central. He was a member of AUF at age 13 and at age 16 he was the youngest participant ever at the Labour congress. Community involvement and interest in culture came early for Simon. He also established Salangen AUF in 2008 and was head of the office. Simon just managed to finish high school as Russian president in the spring of 2011. He was also in Cambodia to make a film about the project "Water for Life" that he was engaged in. Over 20,000 have so far received water thanks to youth efforts. Simon could affect a lot of people if he had continued to live. To be brutally murdered before he turned 19 is perceived as a huge tragedy. The loss of Simon will make many poorer in the years to come. He is survived by his mom and dad and a little brother.

09.40 Judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen: - We continue with Modupe Ellen Awoyemi.

09.40 Dyvesveen: - Modupe Ellen Awoyemi, born 14 August 1995. She died on the cliffs at Kjærlighetsstien. [Dyvesveen show the same aerial as before. The white marker on the image closer slope shows that Modupe Ellen Awoyemi was found not far from Simon Sæbø.]

09.41 Ormestad: - Modupe Ellen Awoyemi was fifteen years and had four gunshot wounds.

09.42 Forensic vege shows where the shots hit.

09.43 Vege: - She died of bullet wounds in the neck and back, and these led to a quick death.

09.44 Lawyer Elisabeth S. Brotkorb: - Dupe or Ellen that she had begun to call herself, was the family's afterthought. She was a cheerful, bubbly girl who lived ahead of them. It was clear the last summer that she felt that the world was at her feet and that she had decided to take the leap. She wanted to be a lawyer. Law spoke to her need for justice in itself. She could calm you down if she wanted and was interested in the society we live in. She was always a caring person and defended and supported others at school. School was Dupes next step. She had bought clothes and made herself and looked forward most to the social. She was ready to take the leap. She was active for a girl who sang in the church choir in Bragernes. Dupe had concern for animals and was very fond of her niece, who she was proud of and always looked forward to playing with. Politics was something she had begun to show interest in the recent past. Going on Utøya was a natural way to go, and Dupe looked forward to going. This was the first time at Utøya, and she was sure it was going to be fun. The AUF was fun to discuss with other peers and be heard. But the social side played probably also a major role. A little before five o'clock Dupe called her mother. She had borrowed a phone and wanted to check that no one in the family had been injured in the bomb attack in Oslo. She said she had a blast and that she had no time to talk. She was 15 years old.

09.48 Arntzen: - Thank you. We continue now with Sharidyn Meegan Ngahiwi Svebakken-Bohn (14) from Drammen.

09.49 Dyvesveen: - Sharidyn Meegan Ngahiwi Svebakken-Bohn, born 17 July 1997. She died on the cliffs at Kjærlighetsstien. We recognize the aerial image of the escarpment and the white marker shows where she was found.

09.49 Dyvesveen shows how Svebakken-Bohn was found.

09.50 Court doctor Vege accounts for injuries the 14-year-old suffered.

09.51 Vege shows where the two shots hit.

09.51 Vege: - Sharidyn Meegan Ngahiwi Svebakken-Bohn died of bullet wounds in the chest, which caused immediate unconsciousness and imminent death.

09.52 Aid lawyer wonders if she might have been under water after she was shot.

09.52 Vege: - No.

09.53 Assists Attorney General Tom Berno Larsen - Sharidyn was born in New Zealand the firstborn child in the family. She is described by family and close friends as a caring girl. She had a warm smile that spread to everyone she met, and was downright non-violent and committed. Sharidyn would begin in the 9th class in the fall. She dreamed of becoming a fashion designer. She celebrated the 14th birthday a few days before she was killed, and should have been confirmation in Drag The church the following Sunday. Little sister (7) says about Sharidyn: "She was the world's best sister, and she is in our hearts all the time." Parents say: "Sharidyn was an important part of our family and we are forever grateful that she chose us as their family. We are indescribably proud of her and will always love her until the day we meet again." Also they add: "Rest in peace, our beautiful angel."

09.56 Arntzen: - Thank you. Then the court will take a break until 10:15.

09.56 Breivik gets put in handcuffs again. He speaks briefly with Lippestad before being led out of the courtroom.

10.15 Breivik entered into court again.

10.15 Judges arrives.

10.16 Judge Arntzen: - Negotiations continue.

10.17 Prosecutor Holden says that Svebakken-Bohn was transported by boat to the mainland along with, among others, Simon Sæbø.

10.17 Now the court has come to the autopsy report to Marianne Sandvik (16) from Stavanger.

10.17 Dyvesveen: - Marianne Sandvik, born 14 March 1995. Marianne Sandvik died on the cliffs at Kjærlighetsstien. [Dyvesveen shows the aerial image and the image is closer to the cliff edge. The white dot that indicates how Marianne Sandvik was found showing that she was not far Sharidyn Meegan Ngahiwi Svebakken-Bohn]

10.19 Court doctor Vege accounts for the injuries and where the 16-year-old was shot.

10.20 Vege: - She died of gunshot injury, which has led to rapid unconsciousness and imminent death.

10.20 Lawyer Tone Thing Violence: - Marianne was a spirited girl who was only 16 years old. The images shown here in court was taken on holiday with his family, two weeks before she was killed. Marianne was number four in five siblings. Marianne had just finished secondary school and would start on health and social care in high school. This was something she really looked forward to. She had a budding interest in politics, and she enjoyed being with friends and exercising. Marianne is described by the family as a girl who had the ability to see people around itself. She was very caring and attentive. She had a dream to work with disadvantaged young people and others who needed help. She is greatly missed and leaves behind parents and four siblings. They are all present here today.

10.24 Dyvesveen: - I'll give a recap of Kjærlighetsstien. First, what we have seen today, the five. [Dyvesveen shows aerial image marked with dots of where fifteen youths were found.] The next area is the Skolestua, and colleague Sandsbråten will take over.

10.26 Trond Sandsbråten: - Then we get to the area by Skolestua. [Trond Sandsbråten shows an aerial view of the surrounding area. There are some open spaces and other places with dense vegetation] We must account for the area of ​​the forest where two youths died. [He shows a picture taken close to the scene of a forest] We will begin to account for Gizem Dogan. Gizem Dogan, born 1 May 1994. He died at the forest by Skolestua.

10.28 A red dot on the overview screen showing where Dogan was found.

10.28 Forensic Per Hoff-Olsen from the National Institute of Public Health reports on injuries.

10.29 He shows on the gray dummy where Gizem Dogan was hit.

10.30 Hoff-Olsen: - Gizem Dogan died of two gunshot wounds to the head. This led to instant death.

10.31 Lawyer Morten Engesbak: - The survivors of Gizem Dogan find it difficult to describe Gizem in a few words. They ask me convey one sentence. It was written by herself on her Facebook page: "I am so happy in Norway and proud to be a Muslim with Norwegian citizenship."

10.32 Arntzen: - Thank you. We now come to Johannes Buo (14) from Longyearbyen on Svalbard.

10.32 Sandsbråten: - Johannes Buo, born 5 November 1996. Johannes Buo died in the woods east of Skolestua. We recognize Skolestua in the corner. The marking indicates where Johannes Buo lay. [Sandsbråten shows the two images, both aerial and from the woods]

10.34 Hoff-Olsen explains the forensic investigations.

10.34 He shows on the gray dummy where the shots hit, and reports on injuries.

10.35 Hoff-Olsen: - In the study of Johannes Buo we found three gunshot wounds. Johannes Buo died of bullet wounds in the head and chest. Head injuries accounted for instant unconsciousness and imminent death.

10.36 Lawyer Nadia Hall: - "Johannes Buo, 14, was originally from Mandal and stayed on Svalbard, where he was active in Svalbard AUF and engaged in union CISV, Children's International Summer Villages. Snowmobiling and hunting were interests. John went alone on his first camp in Brazil at eleven years old, and went to Germany too. He made many friends all over the world that he gave good contact. He traveled around the world to help. Experiences from abroad both, with the family and through CISV, aroused interest in other cultures and societies current issues. That John, who had traveled around the world on his own, was not coming home alive from a summer camp in the Oslo fjord, seemed complete nonsense for his family." He leaves behind mum, dad and little brother.

10.39 Sandsbråten: - Then we explained the two who died in the forest by Skolestua. We will now show aerial photographs where the two are highlighted. We will then move us forward on Utøya and site seeing Stoltenberget and the Bolsjevika where eight young people died. Three of these were on 22 July transported to the mainland after they died. The forensic investigation has revealed where these are from. We recognize aerial photographs of the island, at the northernmost part. The next image is an enlarged view of the area. [Sandsbråten shows both a picture taken from above and from the water how the site looks.] I'll start to account for the dead. First, the three were transported to the mainland, so the five.

10.42 Sandsbråten notes that weather conditions meant that the water in Tyrifjord was low. The pictures look right, show a higher water level than it was on 22 July.

10.43 I will start to explain Even Flugstad Malmedal (18) from Gurgaon. Even Flugstad Malmedal, born 6 December 1992.

10.44 Sandsbråten: - Even Flugstad Malmedal died at Stoltenberget.

10.44 A white circle in the diagram shows how Malmedal was found.

10.44 Sandsbråten tells what Malmedal was wearing when he was found.

10.45 Forensic Hoff-Olsen explains the damage and how Malmedal was hit.

10.45 Hoff-Olsen: - Even Flugstad Malmedal died of gunshot wounds to the head. This caused immediate unconsciousness and imminent death.

10.46 Lawyer Hanne Lilleby: - ​​Even was a kind, helpful and caring brother and son.

Even was a warm human being and a resource out of the ordinary for sports. He was a committed member of the community, both as a player and coach in Gurgaon and judgments, and volunteered in the YMCA/YWCA. It was intended that he should work for the YMCA/YWCA in autumn, before going into military service at the garrison in Sør-Varanger. Even had hobbies and interest including management, and although he had not quite decided the future, he had every opportunity. Family and friends say the loss of Even is the loss of a great asset.

10.49 The court pauses until 11.05.

11.06 Breivik entered into court again. He is standing and talking with his attorney Vibeke Hein Bæra.

11.08 Judges entering the court.

11.08 Judge Arntzen: - As negotiations continue. We have now reached Syvert Knudsen.

11.08 Defendant sits down and gets handcuffs unlocked.

11.10 Judge Arntzen said they expect to begin in a while, as the air conditioner is in the courtroom may be turned off.

11.11 Defendant speaks little with his defense counsel Geir Lippestad while waiting.

11.12 Judge Arntzen: - I get the message that they are working on it. I suggest that we take a five-minute break.

11.12 Arntzen based this on that the air conditioner may interfere with the proceedings.

11.13 Judges leave the courtroom while the other actors and the audience will remain. The defendant has not been brought out. He speaks with his defense counsel Geir Lippestad.

11.16 The judges are back in the room.

11.17 Judge Arntzen: - Here we go.

11.17 The court shall review the autopsy report of Syvert Knudsen (17) from Lyngdal in Vest-Agder.

11.17 Sandsbråten: - Syvert Knudsen, born 21 August 1993. Syvert Knudsen died at Stoltenberget. We can see aerial photos and we recognize Stoltenberg who enters the Bolsjevika, and the football field here. [Sandsbråten displays to the court. A white mark on an aerial photo showing where Knudsen was found.. Next photo shows Stoltenberget taken from the water. He was found in the other two and was taken to Storøya.

11.19 Sandsbråten refers to images that the professional players have gotten in their evidence folders, and he says what Knudsen was wearing when he was found.

11.20 Hoff-Olsen explains the forensic investigations.

11.20 Hoff-Olsen: - Syvert Knudsen died from three bullet wounds in the head and chest. They have on the whole caused immediate unconsciousness and imminent death.

11.21 He uses sticks to display on the dummy where Knudsen was hit by the shots.

11.22 Lawyer Andreas Bjorn Salvesen: - The family said: "Syvert has always been a happy boy and he liked music. He wrote his own songs, one of which he performed at the Youth Culture that year. The song is called "Dying Rose" and was performed on guitar. The guitar had his course with at Utøya. He played for people who would listen to him there on the island. Syvert loved to go on the lake. He had his own boat and used it a lot. He could happily sit in the boat alone, drive out to a secluded island and sit there and philosophize about different things. He was interested in politics and would transform society. He wanted more justice. Syvert leaves a huge void. He will always be present with friends, family, and many more.

11.24 Arntzen: - Thank you. Then we come to Synne Røyneland and we got a new lawyer in place. Can you say your name? [Aid lawyer says his name is Christian Lundin]

11.25 Sandsbråten: - Synne Røyneland from Oslo, born 18 January 1993. Synne Røyneland died at Stoltenberget. [Sandsbråten shows pictures of place]

11.25 Sandsbråten show the same aerial image. A white marker shows where Røyneland was found.

11.26 Hoff-Olsen: - The investigation of Synne Røyneland showed three gunshot wounds.

11.26 He again uses the dummy to show how the 18-year-old was hit.

11.26 Hoff-Olsen: - Synne Røyneland died of bullet wounds in the head. They have caused immediate unconsciousness and imminent death.

11.27 Lawyer Christian Lundin: - Honoured court, the family has asked me to convey the following: Although Synne was only 18 years she made deep traces. She had the word of power, while she had an artist's soul. In her blog she wrote about difficult things like her body image, but also about the little things in life. The blog is still read by many. Synne would take last year in high school this year.

11.30 Arntzen: - We have now come to Torjus Jakobsen Blattmann. Can I get assistance lawyer's name?

11.30 Lawyer: - It is Ivar Sveen.

11.31 Sandsbråten: - I have now accounted for three of the eight dead were found at Stoltenberget and the Bolsjevika who were moved to Storøya. I will start with an account of the other five. I'll explain two of these today and the remainder in the morning. I start with Torjus Jakobsen Blattmann, born 19 September 1993. Torjus Jakobsen Blattmann died at Stoltenberget. [Police chief assistant displays images on the screen and shows the Torjus Jakobsen Blattmann was found]

11.34 Hoff-Olsen explains the damage and how Blattmann was hit.

11.34 Hoff-Olsen: - In the study of Torjus Jakobsen Blattmann we detected one gunshot wound in the head. It has been instantly fatal.

11.35 Lawyer Ivar Sveen: - Torjus' mom and dad are here in the audience today. There is also little sister, grandmother and aunt. I have been asked to perform the following words: "Torjus was deputy for the AUF in Kristiansand. This was the second time he was on Utøya, a place he loved to be. He was very interested in music and playing guitar. On Utøya he was much in the rock tent and practiced, along with several of the young people who are now gone. They should have played together on stage on Saturday. Torjus was a thoughtful, caring young boy who wanted to work with children. He looked forward to the rest of his life, and to be 18 years old. Good, kind Torjus, we miss you terribly."

11.38 Arntzen: - Thank you. We now come to Ingrid Berg Hegge Lund. Can I get the assistance lawyer's name?

11.38 Lawyer: - Endre Refsdal.

11.39 Sandsbråten: - Ingrid Berg Hegge Lund, born 20 September 1991, was 18 years old. Ingrid Berg Hegge Lund died at Stoltenberget. We look at aerial photos. We recognize Stoltenberget and the transition to the Bolsjevika and the football field. We look at the red mark where Ingrid Berg Hegge Lund was found. [Sandsbråten shows the red mark on both an overview photo and a picture taken from the water]

11.40 Hoff-Olsen must account for bullet wounds.

11.41 Hoff-Olsen: - Ingrid Berg Hegge Lund died from three bullet wounds in the neck and head, as well as in the abdomen and chest. The injuries were immediately fatal.

11.42 Lawyer Endre Refsdal: - Ingrid Berg Hegge Lund was 18. In spring 2011 she was a student at Hill High School. She had been enrolled from the fall as a student at the University of Oslo. It was the second time Ingrid was on Utøya, that would be a great summer vacation highlight. The whole family had planned around Ingrid attending summer camp. Ingrid was described by the family as generous, kind and caring. She had many friends who have supported the family. The family also describes that she was very involved, especially in anti-racist work, and work at the refugee reception center in Ås. She had a pronounced sense of justice. Ingrid is survived by father, mother and two little sisters that she was particularly fond

11.46 Sandsbråten: - I will now end the day on our page summary of site Stoltenberg and Bolsjevika. That summary is also the three we must account for the morrow. Tomorrow we will also elaborate on the pump body.

11.46 Arntzen: - Thank you. Then the court takes a five-minute break at 11:50. [The judge will have a statement of the witnesses presence in each other's explanations before lunch]

11.47 A police officer walks up to the defendant and said a few words to him. He puts Breivik in handcuffs, and the defendant is discharged.

11.55 Breivik brought into the room again.

11.55 The judges come back.

11.56 Judge Arntzen: - It is a procedural question that has arisen in relation to the victim's right to be present during each other's explanations. [The judge said that this was determined by the court, but that decision has been appealed to the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court] Against this background, this question must be decided by the overall transmission. Our contributors yesterday and today by e-mail from the parties. The input is copied and distributed to judges. They will be read before the court makes its decision. We have a list on a categorization of defense.

11.59 This is about those who will witness shall be present to hear others' explanations or not.

11.59 Lippestad: - Honoured court. Our starting point is very clear, it is that the victims are important witnesses, therefore it is important that they come in and explain themselves one by one. We reviewed all of the 44 witness statements. We have in our categorization tried not to encroach explanations. We have tried to make this as gently as possible, and pointed out the areas where they will explain all about. The first on the list are those that we believe have the type of information that is of a character that does not do anything about the overhear each other's explanations. As for the rest, we see that they have seen the defendant's response pattern, they testified about firing frequency, they explain what the defendant has said and what he has done in confrontation with the deceased, and we believe that they have important information right need to consider the main issue in this case.

12.02 Judge Arntzen ask Lippestad about what the defenders' point of view is.

12.03 Lippestad: - We have made a distinction between those we believe are important not hear each other, and those that are not so important. The principal argument is that no one overhears another, but the secondary is that we have made a difference.

12.04 Prosecutors have no comments on this categorization, but a sudden question.

12.04 Engh: - I have a few comments on the legal issue. We were not aware of this until this morning, that is why you have not received any input from us. We have no clear views in some directions, but we envisage that the court should keep in mind: As things stand now, it is important whether the defendant was psychotic or not. Our first thought is that when listening to the experts about the explanations are important for their consideration. As far as I know the witnesses are not affected by the two expert declarations. So the question is whether it still can get things right that are of interest. The experts had access to all the questioning. So the question is whether it's going to be new and different things that can shed light on the matter. The next thing I think about is whether there is a real danger that they make some changes based on what they themselves have explained by what they hear. A more familiar issue is whether they supplement what they've said in the interview something in direct conflict with questioning, but if they complement, one can ask whether it has come from others. So there is an element of conflict. That is how this matter is handled externally. Testimony will go directly online immediately and we have no control. There is hardly a legal argument, but the court should bear this in mind. Witnesses to the go in there and read, it will probably happen.

12.09 Lawyer Frode Elgesem will look into the Court of Appeal's decision.

12.09 Elgesem: - I think that this right with the suggestions received, know well about each aggrieved party has information that is important for accountability breaker question.

12.10 He points out that the right to be present in court is an important question for the victims.

12.10 Elgesem: - This should be an individual decision. These are decisions about victim's rights.

12.11 Elgesem reads from the legislative history of the Criminal Code.

12.11 Elgesem: - In this case there are a number of strong consideration to suggest that the victims may be true: The right to own adaptation, the desire to get answers and know one wants to provide support to each other and prepare their own testimony.

12.12 - It is true that interviews can be supplemented, but I think it is important to remember that most of the youngsters are not in a situation where they could attribute information that the experts need in their assessment of sanity.

12.13 Elgesem points out that there are very few of the victims who are in a position to say anything about the defendant's state of mind.

12.14 Elgesem: - There are strong arguments to suggest that they may be present, but I agree that we should listen to the experts.

12.14 Arntzen: - Thank you for that, there is nothing wrong with listening to the experts, but it is important that the court needs.

12.15 Expert Synne Sørheim: - It is basically like Elgesem have stressed, we have access to all interrogations. It is true that we have done this with a view to look for qualitatively important information.

12.15 The experts have no input into the legislative side of this.

12.16 Judge Arntzen: - We take a brief commentary round. Lippestad, do you have more to add?

12.17 Lippestad: - Honoured court, in answer to the question I got. [Lippestad continues to argue for their view]. The fact that this case also goes live into public, we are aware it can weaken the testimony. But it is not an argument that we can let it deteriorate further in this court, on the contrary. I just want to remind the court that we have sent two letters in connection with this matter.

12.19 Judge Arntzen: - Thank you, that's okay. The time now is 12:15. We begin with the next witness at 13:00. It is not the right time to utter a decision today. Then it will apply after lunch that the victims from Utøya not have the right to be present. [Lawyer Elgesem ask if indeed it is a decision] We follow the court rule.

12.19 Elgesem: - There will be dramatic closing of the courtroom in that regard. It can be adapted in terms of time if desired.

12.19 Judge Arntzen: - If we take a longer lunch, we have time to have a decision ready.

12.21 Defendant is again handcuffed and led out of the courtroom.

12.21 Lunch break

13.30 Defendant entered into court again.

13.30 Breivik is now sitting in the row behind where he has served until now.

13.32 Defenders Geir Lippestad and Vibeke Hein Bæra is sitting in the front row on the defense side, while Breivik sits in the row behind the defense Tord Jordet and Odd Ivar Grøn.

13.32 Breivik discusses with his defense while awaiting court judges.

13.39 The judges have still not come back after the break.

13.44 Prosecutor Engh and Holden speaks softly while the hall waiting for the judges. Judges extended lunch break until 13:30 to get to a conclusion, but have not yet returned.

13.54 The judges come into the courtroom.

13.54 Arntzen: - When the court is sitting. I apologize for the delay. I read the court's decision. This part is permitted to be broadcast. The Court's assessment must to some extent be based on a theoretical basis. [Arntzen goes through witnesses who will testify. Several of them were shot at Utøya. Arntzen explains that those who have seen Breivik on Utøya may help to elucidate the sanity question. None of these witnesses should listen to his explanations. The judge mentions some names who observations can illuminate the sanity question.] For the others the court does not know what observations or communications they had with the defendant. The court therefore believes they may have information that is important for the accountability question. This means that the victims present in the courtroom or other venues who will give evidence at a later date, you must leave the room.

14.00 Prosecutor Svein Holden gets the word.

14.00 Holden: - Honourable court, before we go over to the first witness, as it is the case that we are now entering a new phase. I think it is appropriate to provide the court and the audience a brief overview of the visual aids we can use in the testimonies. It can be used by witnesses who will place or confirm events. The first thing we see is a map, somewhat similar to what has been discussed previously. Moreover, we have also another solution. Here you see Utøya with numerous red and white icons. The red icons highlight what we can call a 360 projection of the area. [Showing the technology that provides 360 degree images of selected areas.] That was the red icons. For your information, the pictures are taken 31 August and it is of course so that with the pictures outdoors and indoors as well the situation is somewhat different than they were at the appropriate times. [Holden shows off blueprints and photos from inside the café]. When it comes to areas of the waterfront, we have had problems with increased water level, so that some of the areas it would be appropriate to go into detail, is under water. The white icons are images taken from the sea, but these images can be contrary to the images with red icon is not rotated. When it comes to the use of these aids is the general rule that witnesses give free explanation, but for some of them we will take and focus on some specific areas. When the court is aware of this if there are any areas that are not lit well enough. Then we can take into Tonje Brenna.

14.06 First witness, Tonje Brenna, enters the court. She takes place in the witness box and enter your personal details. Brenna is Secretary General of the AUF.

14.07 Arntzen: - We want you to explain what you remember about 22 July. If there is anything you do not remember or do not understand, just ask.

14.06 [Brenna gives the oath].

14.08 Brenna sits in the witness box and smiles lightly at the prosecution before she starts to explain what the job entails in general.

14.08 Holden: - Yes, Brenna, you explained to us that you are a general secretary. What is that?

14.09 Brenna: - The General Secretary is elected at the convention and I am overall responsible for the organization. I am responsible for finance, courses and also summer camp on Utøya.

14.09 Holden: - Can you tell us about your association with AUF before you became Secretary General in 2010?

14.10 Brenna: - I have been an active member since 2005. I was County Secretary in 2006, and Akershus. I have sat in AUF management since 2008 and full-General since 2010.

14.11 Holden: - So you told us that one of your duties was to organize summer camp on Utøya. Can you give us an idea of ​​what summer camp is organized?

14.12 Brenna: - It's about the same time each year, in the same place, it has been almost a year. We start planning in November or December year, when determining dates, etc. Registration of participants is at the local offices, and participants pay a fee to participate. Prior to the opening of the summer camp, county members arrive relatively organized, putting up their tents and put in place. My responsibility is mainly to organize the camp while in progress. During summer camp much of my responsibility entails in making sure that people get the food they need, that the Prime Minister arrives when he must, and that people do what they have to do etc.

14.14 Brenna: - Summer camp is run by a bunch of hundreds of people who voluntarily operate everything on Utøya from the cooking to being a sailor on the boat.

14.14 Holden: - Are there any permanent employees on the island in addition to your crew?

14.14 Brenna: - Yes, Monica Bøsei and her husband. In the summer when there is much to do extra we hire additional help. There are also employees who cook, nurse and so on.

14.15 Holden: - What about security?

14.15 Brenna: - Much of security is that people are pre-registered so that we know who's coming. On the land side they check all luggage for stuff ranging from swiss army knives, alcohol is not allowed on Utøya. On Utøya is a separate inspection teams that provide peace and order where there is communication with the camp management. All counties are responsible for their own members. There's preparedness for outbreaks of disease. Norwegian People's Aid has a boat there. There are good fire routines. We have taken into account much, except for what happened 22 July.

14.16 Holden: - It is sufficient for me anyhow. Then we either over to your experiences. What happened?

14.17 Brenna: - After we were told that something had happened in Oslo, we did not quite know what it was. When we gathered camp management it was quite quickly agreed that we had to try to collect all the participants for a meeting where we would inform about what had happened, etc. After that meeting, I was around and lent out my phone and comforted those who were concerned. We would also assist people so that they could get in touch with friends and family. When I had been at it for a while, I went out and down the tent. I think I stood at the window of the cafe building, on the gravel road towards the campsite, when I heard something that I was certain someone was smashing dishes or fireworks. I spoke with my partner on the phone when I heard what I thought was dishes shattering. I told that it was someone who had very bad humor and was joking with dishes in such a situation. I was very angered and took everything I could in the direction of what I thought was dishes putter. And when I come down in the square, where there are two or three people in front of me falling to the ground.

14.19 Brenna: - Then I immediately thought that they had been shot. At the same time I met [name omitted] running in the opposite direction of where I'm running, and he says "Run for your life." I ran across the tent site with everything I had.

14.19 Holden - You said you saw two people fall and thought they were shot. Did you know them there and then or?

14.19 Brenna: - I thought at first they had received a shock or something, but when I ran, I realized the combination of sound and that they fell.

14.20 Holden: - Did you know this personally?

14.20 Brenna: - I did not register at the time who they were.

14.20 Holden: - What about the shooter? So you know who fired the shots?

14.20 Brenna: - I did not see anyone other than those who went down in front of me.

14.20 Holden - You explained to me that you ran.

14.21 Brenna: - I came along sanitary building against Kjærlighetsstien towards Sydspissen. I do not remember how far I ran until I met a lot of people, where it was chaotic and people held each other. There were two girls who came to me. One was [name omitted], she was shot in the shoulder. The other was Eirin Kristin Kjær. [She describes that she saw Gunnar Linnaker from a distance.]

14.22 Holden: - Do you know how far away they were? How many meters?

14.22 Brenna: - It is difficult to estimate, but 15? 20? I'm not sure.

14.22 Holden: - No, but we have at least an idea.

14.23 Brenna: - So I thought that she is severely injured, she is so small, she can I leave with me. So I supported and carried her to where I thought it was a good idea to run, and it was at the precipice of Kjærlighetsstien. And then there were quite a few there and quite chaotic, but some of the guys who was with us managed to stay calm, and I told them that now we have to try to take control and calm down and get folks with us. We tried to organize all down to the water's edge. It was very steep and very chaotic, and everyone wanted out.

14.24 - It ended up being a sort of queuing system in which one naturally enough, had to be either one or two-and-two and slipped down the slope. There I lay down with [name omitted]. She was lying partially on top of me. We then ended on a ledge, a flat large rock in the ground a bit down. There were many people on all sides around us. We let down quickly, she was cold, chalk white and breathed unevenly. It's hard to say how long, then lands a person on my feet bleeding from the head. It's a bit unclear to me, but he must have come from above. He landed where I was. I perceive the person as dead right away, and I recognized who it was.

14.25 - And then it was. I tried to keep count of the number of shots. It smells of gunpowder very clearly. On both sides of me people clearly fall down from the cliff we are in. We hear people falling. I discovered pretty quickly that he was below me. [Describes how he was and how he was]. Mobiles ringing constantly and receiving text messages. The shooting is in progress for quite some time, before it moves to the schoolroom.

14.26 - Then there is a moment where we hear the shooting moving around the island, it's hard to say how long it went.

14.26 Holden: - Can you try to describe what it was like to be there?

14.26 Brenna: - The only thing I thought of was that now we must try not to panic, we must try to remain calm. We tried to help each other with clothes for it was very cold. And we whispered things to each other as "tomorrow we will be home, then it is hot and we could see a Saturday movie along with our parents. But the feeling of being left there... We had to try to help each other, and we saw that there were people around us who were seriously injured and that there was nothing to do with.

14.27 - It was the feeling of hopelessness that sat there the whole time.

14.27 Holden: - Did you have any idea of how many there were in that area?

14.27 Brenna: - Not until we were evacuated, but then there were many more.

14.27 Holden: - To indicate how many ...

14.27 Brenna: - 40 - 50 maybe. I'm not quite sure.

14.27 Holden: - You said somewhere that the shots moved towards Skolestua?

14.28 Brenna: - I'm pretty familiar with Utøya, so I thought a lot about where the shots came from. I followed the sound. I do not know how long it took but he came back and hit it again for us. Then came an avalanche of rocks that slid down on us. It was also shot down on us then and the shots hit the rocks. It made the experience that it was close even stronger. Then it was said that "it is the police, the police are killing us." So the shooting continued for a while, but I can not estimate how long it was. There were cries for help and screaming all the time. One could hear what was going on without you saw it.

14.29 Holden: - You have talked about a stone? What was it?

14.29 Brenna: - Some gravel and stone loosened probably as a result of someone falling. It landed a stone at me and I'm pretty sure it hit. It was on my neck.

14.30 Holden: - How did you do that?

14.30 Brenna: - Difficult to separate the one incident from the other. It felt like everything was just as close. It felt as close to being hit every time. It was only a matter of time. It was the margins, and it felt impossible not to be struck for the shots came so close.

14.31 Holden: - Did you have any sense of how far away the shooter was?

14.31 Brenna: - It was so that you could hear quiet walking in the heather or quite loose ground. Because nobody else moved quietly, there was logically only one who could move quietly. Three to four feet maybe, it is based on that I am known there, but I'm not sure of the number of meters.

14.32 Holden: - Did you see him or weapon?

14.32 Brenna: - At some point, I saw what I thought was a weapon, and then I just thought that if I survive this, I can not have seen him, because I'm never there. So then it was just closing my eyes and ducking.

14.33 Holden: - What happened next?

14.33 Brenna: - I do not know if it was the first or last time he hit us. But I'm sure I heard happy outbreaks in association with obvious results. That he was happy with it. He went again and came back and then it was the same. I listened to where he went after the shots I heard.

14.34 Holden: - What was it that was said?

14.34 Brenna: - If you had to spell it: Woohoo. Woohoo he said. [Breivik shakes his head in court when this is said].

14.34 Holden: - During questioning he denied that he said anything that could be construed in this direction.

14.35 Brenna: - I have my opinion and that is why I explain it and would not have said it otherwise.

14.35 Holden - You were about to enter the period in which he left Skrenten.

14.35 Brenna: - While the shooting moving farther away, a helicopter pops up. It makes it hard to hear anything. I was very scared. I thought it was going to take us. We just lay there. I tried to listen to the shots. I tried to get through to 112 and 113. I tried to squeeze the hand of [name omitted] and asked her to squeeze my hand to see if she was alive.

14.36 Holden: - Did she do it?

14.36 Brenna: - She did, and she survived. People called their family and said goodbye. I thought that if we survive this, we were certainly completely abandoned. It was cold and raining, and there was blood everywhere.

14.38 - Then the end, so ... I did not know that it was at the end, but I saw [name omitted], whom I knew, he came creeping down, he would like to start swimming. And behind him came a little boy. 8, 9, 10 years, hard to judge age, but a young boy. A boy comes and says that he will swim away. But when I say that "You can not swim because you've got on your wellies, you're going to sink." Then he looked at me a bit red and said, "I'm supposed to take off my rubber boots then!". I said, "Fine, if you follow him, you can swim." Then a little later I saw that they both reappeared in a lifeboat that drove past. They did not pick us up that time, but ...

14.40 Holden: - Did you think about swimming too?

14.40 Brenna: - "It is not just on Utøya where this is happening, it happens in Oslo also" I thought. So it was not an option because I did not know what the situation on land was. When I saw others swimming I was with others so I put me off the idea. I can not leave. I considered not swimming at some point.

14.41 Holden - You had seen a boat, there will eventually be more I guess?

14.41 Brenna: - The boats started to come closer, but there were still shots so we knew that those in the boat were not in cahoots with the shooting and that it was still dangerous. So it became very quiet and everything was just quiet. Eventually comes a police boat with well-armed policemen. Then there is also an ambulance. When the police boat arrived we thought "that would they kill us."

14.42 Brenna: - They shouted, "Is anyone alive? Is there anyone who lives" We were just totally silent. Then the ambulance, so we thought, "Maybe they will help us."

14.42 Holden: - How did you get off the island?

14.42 Brenna: - First, there was the surprise about the amount of people that were there. The most seriously injured had to go first, so some of us helped with that. There had to be a system on who was going first. Those who came were sure that the will was dead, but we had all heard him mutter. I argued that they had to take him. I got to land with a civilian boat, and was taken into Storøya.

14.43 Holden: - If we look at the dead, you've mentioned Gunnar Linnaker. You were 20 feet away from him, so you have more of him?

14.43 Brenna: - No. I was made aware of him by [name omitted].

14.43 Holden: - What did [name omitted] do?

14.43 Brenna: - I do not remember when I met her, she was shot first time. Now I know that she was there, however. I think she was in the crowd we ran in first. I remember very she went to me and said I had to be left with Gunnar. Just the part is a little fuzzy.

14.44 Holden: - Is there anything else you remember seeing?

14.44 Brenna: - Modupe Ellen was right behind me. I do not think I saw her before we were evacuated.

14.44 Holden: - Of the injured, you have mentioned Viljar and [name omitted]. Is there anything else you remember?

14.44 Brenna: - Marte Ødegård was one of those who fell right next to me, and then I heard a very clear voice. Or so I was in the same boat as [name omitted] [II] when we were evacuated.

14.45 Holden shows a picture on the screen of the land below Kjærlighetsstien.

14.45 Holden: - Then I think we take a picture from the cliff, and then I realized that the water level may be somewhat high. Can you try to show us where you were?

14.45 Brenna: - Here is where you moved down. I was here. [Tonje Brenna shows image].

14.45 Holden: - What about the people who fell down?

14.46 [Tonje Brenna right of the screen shows how those who were killed, and surnames, she gets overtalked by the prosecutor]

14.46 Holden: - Did you get the impression where Breivik was standing when he fired the shots?

14.46 Brenna: - I do not know, I've seen pictures on reconstruction, but do not know other than that. But it was close I'm sure.

14.46 Holden: - Then we can take the picture again. Then I want you to tell us what happened when you arrived in the country side.

14.47 Brenna: - When we landed, there was lots of health personnel and civilians who took us. Some categorized us as injured or not injured. We who were injured, were followed up for a bus. Eventually, the bus filled up. Outside the bus people were looking for each other. There was a collection of people who looked for each other. In the bus people shared mobile phones and changed on dry clothes. Then the bus drove to Sundvollen. When I got there, there were lots of people there. I will set out how much the press, police and others who were there. I registered myself. On the way out there so everyone stopped everyone and said "you're alive, have you seen my girlfriend, have you seen my sister, my son?" We responded as best we could. But we could not promise anything.

14.49 [At the reception of Sundvolden she tried to lead the controllers who could begin to survey participants. They found a computer that had fallen into the water, but as they got started they found participant lists anyway.]

14.50 Brenna: - I introduced myself and said that I knew a lot about the Utøya. We went through the list of pre-registered, but they're not voting forever. It was a small piece of work. So I went eventually to the phone, where a nurse was and took requests who were looking for their children.. She wrote a list to me, with about 40 names. So I went around and looked. The ones I found, I crossed out, and those I did not find, I just had the report that I found. That I kept for a while, went and got new lists and held on. And all the people came and asked me about their children, or people they were with.

14.51 - But after a while so was the AUF leader and deputy leader of Sundvolden. When we tried to pull ourselves together and talk about what we do on and get an overview of what's happened.

14.51 Holden: - What happened in the evenings and the days afterwards?

14.52 Brenna: - On Sundvolden there were many meetings where they tried to get an overview of who was missing and lost. I tried to get the idea of ​​how many people were gone and all the meetings were many parents. We had a press conference at Sundvolden where Eskil, or where we, tried to find something wise to say. Saturday night I went from Sundvolden. Sunday we went to the Cathedral and Monday I was at work and I have been ever since.

14.53 Holden: - How have you experienced the months since 22 July?

14.53 Brenna: - That's fine, but I have been very much afraid. Grief and loss is a bit like a clammy hand around the heart. My job and all the AUF has been a completely different, but we have received an incredible amount of support.

14.53 Holden: - I think it will be the last word.

14.53 Bæra: - You prepare a program each year. Who's in on it?

14.54 Brenna: - It is the collaboration between the regional and central office. In the program there are different schools. There may be environmental, international solidarity and anti-racism. So you can follow the tracks there. In addition, the bigger names, as Minister and debates.

14.54 Bæra: - How do you disclose it?

14.55 Brenna: - There is always a lot of tension related to who are this year's big names and stuff, then. It announced in auf.no, it will be posted on Facebook pages and spread that way.

14.55 Bæra: - We have asked others, but how is it to arrive at Utøya?

14.55 Brenna: - I have come to Utøya by bus or car every year since 2006 and I still forget to press when I'm off, it's hard to recognize. It is a fairly short, steep road, which suddenly disappears into the bushes and shrubs.

14.56 Bæra: - How are the routines, you can just come and book a boat?

14.56 Brenna: - The boat has set times. You can not just order a boat, but most of that is there are pre-registered. Then it's like you say "hello, my name is", and then checked against the lists. So you get a wrist band around you, your luggage will be checked and you get a result with a liner.

14.57 Carrier - Luggage is checked?

14.57 Brenna: - Yes.

14.57 Bæra: - When you then have come across on Utøya, how is the security there?

14.57 Brenna: - There is always a lot of tension related to who is this year's big names and stuff, then. It announced in auf.no, it will be posted on Facebook pages and spread that way.

14.58 Bæra: - We have asked others, but how is it to arrive at Utøya?

14.58 Brenna: - I have come to Utøya by bus or car every year since 2006 and I still forget to press when I'm off, it's hard to recognize. It is a fairly short, steep road, which suddenly disappears.

14.58 Bæra: - What are the routines, you can just come and book a boat?

14.59 Brenna: - The boat has set times. You can not just order a boat, but most of that is there are pre-registered. Then it's like you say "hello, my name is", and then checked against the lists. So you get a band around your arm, your luggage will be checked and you get a result with a liner.

14.59 Carrier - luggage is checked?

14.59 Brenna: - Yes.

14.59 Bæra: - When you then have come across on Utøya, how is the security there?

15.00 Brenna: - They're hired on the occasion of Labour Youth League summer camp and have been there for 15-20 years. They are really just around the island, often with their children and listen to their lectures like everyone else. They are there for a function that they will enter when needed. If anything should occur, they alert me. So we must find a solution to what we do.

15.00 Bæra: - If people or animals, you know that?

15.00 Brenna: - It's not a problem. If you're not registered, it's because you know that those on the land side, feeling again. Then you are probably well versed in the AUF.

15.01 Bæra: - Were you on duty on 22 July when the defendant was going to take over?

15.01 Brenna: - That I was not.

15.01 Bæra: - My last question. There are guards there and recognize people. If the defendant had not been dressed like police that day, do you think he'd come across?

15.02 Brenna: - I think it would be much more difficult than it was. And had there not been requisitioned an own boat for him, but I think it had been difficult.

15.02 Lippestad: - You have shown a remarkable vigor and have probably helped save many lives out there.

15.02 Bæra: - I have two short questions: You heard a Wow or something similar. You explained that there were 30-40 people there: How do you know it came from the perpetrator?

15.03 Brenna: - It was an outburst of joy. No one else would come with such an outburst.

15.03 Lippestad: - Are you sure it came from him?

15.03 Brenna: - I am quite sure I heard it and know that no one else would have expressed it.

15.03 Lippestad: - Do you think he saw you or where you lay, possibly more so lying on the cliffs, or do you think he did not see you from where he stood?

15.04 Brenna: - It is steep there. It's hard to get down, so we observe. It is thin with vegetation. It is bumpy with a lot of rocks. There are no hiding places where I was. I thought it was strange that he did not see us.

15.04 Lippestad: - No further questions.

15.04 Siv Hallgren: - First, a few questions that we have received from other aid lawyers. When it comes to this line of slope, all the bystanders came down?

15.05 Brenna: - No, they did not.

15.05 Hallgren: - Can you elaborate on that?

15.05 Brenna: - Anders Kristiansen, for example, was left there.

15.05 Hallgren: - And what happened to him?

15.05 Brenna: - He did not live. He was killed on Kjærlighetsstien.

15.05 Hallgren: - Can they be standing in line, those who died there?

15.05 Brenna: - I do not know. I remember seeing Anders and Simon Saebo while I was up there, but I can not remember more than that.

15.06 Hallgren: - As you mentioned Furuseth Sondre Dale, can you elaborate a bit what you saw of him?

15.06 Brenna: - I saw a man fell and landed hard. I saw him partly behind and partly in profile. But I did not know what caused him to fall.

15.06 Hallgren: - You remember having seen some guys jump in the water?

15.06 Brenna: - I understood that those who fell on the side... I thought they jumped. When Sondre came to rest in peace, I do not know, I thought the water was low and there was so much water to land in there.

15.07 Hallgren: - So Marianne Sandvik. Did you see her?

15.07 Brenna: - Not that I can remember.

15.07 Hallgren: - So any questions about this with registration and the website of the campsite. Who was there? How well did it emerge?

15.07 Brenna: - There was no absolute age limit of the camp, but with accommodation in tents it leads to an age group that is more interested in it than others.

15.08 Brenna: - It has been clearly demonstrated that there were strict alcohol bans at the camp and that it was offering child care for those who brought toddlers. It appears that there's a sorry young people.

15.08 Hallgren: You said that you did not see him. Can you explain that?

15.08 Brenna: - I would not have more memories of it behind this than absolutely necessary.

15.08 Hallgren - You said you felt courage and despair. There are two conflicting emotions.

15.09 Brenna explains here that she pretended that she was full of courage, and that she seemed strong, it was a comfort to others.

15.09 Hallgren: - How are you today?

15.09 Brenna: - It's fine. I still need help and support. I have been much afraid. There are heavily laden with grief and loss.

15.09 Hallgren: - How long do you see that you continue to be the Secretary General of the AUF?

15.09 Brenna: - There's a congress in October, so we'll see.

15.09 Lawyer Frode Elgesem: - How many years has it been on Utøya?

15.10 Brenna: - I can not say exactly what year it started, but I think it was when Jens Stoltenberg became AUF leader.

15.10 Elgesem: - When are we talking about?

15.10 Brenna: - The 80s.

15.10 Elgesem: - You have had guests there every year. Have there been any serious incidents at Utøya in these years?

15.10 Brenna: - Not as far as I know.

15.10 Elgesem: - And as for fire preparedness, etc., or evacuation plans, it has been like that?

15.11 Brenna: - We have close contact with the fire department, with the check of fire fighting equipment and dialogue. Now I do not remember when the fire department had been there last, I think it was a year ago or something. So everything was changing. So also notified the police that it is held each year.

15.11 - It would be if someone was sick and some had to the emergency room so that you have a boat that can carry the there.

15.11 Lawyer Elgesem: - Was there a plan for full evacuation?

15.11 Brenna: - It is not something that happens often. Had there been bad weather on the island, or someone had been sick, we could have been there. I can not think of any other scenario where it could happen.

15.12 Lawyer Elgesem: - There was no plan?

15.12 Brenna: - Not except to get people off the island at normal pace.

15.12 Lawyer Elgesem: - Police were alerted to the camp this year. What do you think about the safety of these important guests?

15.12 Brenna: - I must admit that when we've had ministers on visits I have taken that as a sign that this is a safe place to be.

15.13 Elgesem: - So, finally, something about the AUF. How has it gone with AUF after July 22?

15.13 Brenna: - I think a lot of the experience as a harrowing trial. Many people experience fear. It characterizes events. There is a lot of loss and grief. We have received a lot of support. Labor has helped us a lot. Thousands have joined and we have had meetings that have been better than ever. It's heavy, but it is a belief in the future of AUF and AUF will pass anyway. The biggest challenge is the distinction between those who were on Utøya and those who were not there. It shall be the policy that keeps us together, but the challenge is extra evident now.

15.13 Larsen: - Can you tell us about your mind when you heard shouting? Did you talk to anyone about it?

15.13 Brenna: - I have not talked to anyone else about it. I immediately thought that it was joyous shouting, and that it was inappropriate and illogical. Now my immediate thought was that someone has been affected by the game, but I could be affected by what has emerged in this room.

15.13 Larsen: - Does what you heard there fit in with what you have seen and heard here?

15.14 Brenna: - It was he who controlled the situation correctly 22 July, while here, I find that he is passive. Beyond that it's hard for me to say anything about it.

15.14 Arntzen: - Have the experts any questions?

15.14 [They do not.]

15.14 Lippestad: - Did I understand correctly that it is alright of me, that the defendant may have some comments after each witness? He has some comments.

15.14 Arntzen: - Yes, that's alright. We complete the questions, then we take the comments afterwards.

15.15 [No further questions.]

15.15 Breivik gets the word.

15.15 Anders Behring Breivik: - I have one comment to the court administrator. Is it true that I can not ask the witnesses directly? If I waive my defense, I still have no opportunity to ask questions to the witnesses?

15.15 Judge Arntzen: - You can ask questions through your attorney. You can even make a comment on what the witness said. I suggest you confer with your lawyers about your rights.

15.16 Breivik: - I have been informed. And it's like that no matter what circumstances it is, I can not ask the witness any questions? I would like to ask some questions to Brenna regarding AUF's ideological stance. There has been a will to ask and some of the reasons why it has been made impossible is political correctness.

15.16 Arntzen: - Breivik, your defenders foreshadowed testimony about the AUF program, so that part is something you have to come back to.

15.17 Breivik: - Yes. I would just like to inform the court that there has been a desire to ask. If I want to ask a lot of questions that I get asked.

15.17 Arntzen: - Thank you for your attendance. [Brenna leaves the courtroom] Then we get into next witness ...

15.17 Prosecutor kept asking if they should take a short break, or take all the witnesses in one.

15.17 [There is a discussion about the two witnesses to be entered before any break]

15.17 Arntzen: - We take a break until three-thirty.

15.32 The judges are back in the room.

15.33 Next witness, Oddvar Hansen, takes place in the witness box.

15.33 Arntzen: - Then negotiations continue. We have a new witness in the witness box. Can I get your name?

15.33 Witness: - Oddvar Hansen.

15.33 Arntzen: - You may begin, prosecutor.

15.34 Holden: - Hansen. I just told the court that we have some visual aid. They are not used when the witnesses testify, but when it comes to you, it is appropriate that we have this picture in front of us when you give testimony. I want you to tell us how you experienced July 22.

15.35 Hansen: - The day began like most days for me. I was at work. I had a fairly quiet day on the job that day. I stopped a little earlier at work to see the cycling on TV. I saw the Tour de France and was home at around 15. As I began to watch, it was interrupted by the news report from the bomb in Oslo. It was bad, it did not look like it was in Norway. After a while my partner said it sounds like shooting on Utøya. I did not react at the time, but the shooting continued, as we became more and more uneasy.

15.37 - So we were maybe a little more troubled both, then. So what happened then, when Lill-Hege went in the basement the first time, I saw that the boat Torbjørn it left Utøya and went against Sunderland. It was very unusual, it is almost always the same place, so it seemed very strange. So as we saw Jens Stoltenberg

on news broadcasts, he suddenly said that there was a situation at Utøya too. Then we realized right away that it was what we had heard. The shooting we heard the right in our living room. There was much ado, so when we realized right away that we had to get away. I was out the door in no time, and my partner looked through binoculars and said there were lots of people in the water who swam from the island.

15.39 - We have a long line of sight and 1.2 or 1.3 km as the crow flies to Utøya. I have a boat on the beach and a faster boat that is outside the house. We ran down to the fishing boat and took it out to the big boat. I said we had to take it because it is faster. We realized that this was bad and I said I had to bring my rifle. It was a defense mechanism. It was to defend myself. We said that we went out. Then we took the fishing boat and went to the other boat and ran at full speed to Utøya. We did not know what met us. There were lots of thoughts that went through our heads.

15.41 Holden: How long does it take to drive?

15.41 Hansen: - Two minutes maybe. The big boat does 46-47 knots. When we were driving there, we saw the old boat to the AUF.

15.41 Holden: - You might think "Reiulf"?

15.42 Hansen: - "Reiulf". It was the middle of the strait. There were many people up in, so we drove over to it to find out what happened. We tried to ask. There was panic in the boat, so I did not really understand, but I realized that it was bad and that any extension. [Showing the map where he met Reiulf] We chose to drive on. We saw some boats that had come from Utvika camping. 3-4-5 boats. We chose to run out, we had a large and fast boat. Those with smaller boats could pick up people on the inside.

15.44 - When we come around here, then swam the people from the island in all directions. We met two girls here first when it was Gunhild and Lisa. So we took them up. Then we met another boat, with Jørn, and he took up the people that were in the water here. [Showing continuous map image.] So there were lots of people on the southern tip, which began to wave at us and tried to start swimming towards us that we should come and get them. But when we took an assessment to either pick up those who were furthest out in the water, then, it's too far to swim to land on the page. It was a little tough choice, but we had to take it. Jørn picked up people who were in the water here. And here we picked up a girl. As we pull her into the boat, then a shot resounded. I could not hear the shot, but it hit 20-30 feet behind the boat. All who were in the boat were joined there, so when we turned around and just got off as fast as we could. I turned the boat around and put the throttle beyond.

15.47 Holden: - How far from shore were you?

15.47 Hansen - I guess we were 100-150 meters from shore when it happened. I glanced over my shoulder when we run here again. [Pointing to map] There are lots of people from over here. Maybe 20 to 30 pieces in the water here. When I look back, I saw the bullet impact in the water around the swimming. I looked back and saw it. How many bullet impacts it was I do not know. We swung here and Jørn was situated here. [Pointing at the map again] We swung at him and he had to get away. He got what he was doing in the water into the boat and got away. Then we drove around here [show on map], passed the southern tip back into the pier where Reiulf entered. It had just come ashore when we arrived. There was also the owner of the farm and his granddaughter.

15.49 - We ran in there and then delivered the three girls we had in the boat. There was also Erling Melby.

15.49 Holden points out that there is a cop who will testify later.

15.49 Hansen: - It is one of those that has been much discussed on the Utøya pier. He was down on the dock when we entered. He wondered if we could meet the police, because they had problems with the boat. They came from Storøya. When we gave full throttle against Storøya, drove maybe close to shore and ran as fast as the boat went. Tried to follow so we should not ran into any. It could be people in the water. We tried to look for the police. 200 meters from the island, we saw them in a crowded archipelago jeep. It was Bjørn Juva's boat.

15.50 Holden: Do you know who sent him to Utøya? Do you know who sent him to Storøya?

15.51 Hansen - It was the other guy who came to Utvika. There were two policemen who came to Utvika first. Bjørn was sent a little before me, so he meets dinghy to the police who have stopped. What happens then is that the police take over his boat and he is transferred to the dinghy. He has an open boat with 75 horsepower, and it was also quite crowded, so it went very slowly. So when we arrived, they waved at us, and there was no doubt about what to do, so we headed over.

15.52 - What then happens is that he [Hansen mentions a police man] and Jørn comes just after us. When we enter, skip four pieces of them into our boat. There are six boat. When I set them off at Utøya and asked if we should get the other boat, the one in command of the boat says, "just drive, go!" Then the boat went faster than our boat. When we ran across they asked if we knew the island. I said yes. They wondered if we knew where he is. Then he actually said "he". He asked if I knew what kind of weapon he had, I answered as best I can. "I think he has an mp5 like you."

15.54 - So I asked "where do you want me to put you?" They answered, "You can choose" It was our choice. When we got them across, Delta joined up. "Now we take them, we must assume that one of us gets shot, but we continue anyway." They were focused on what they did and we were not really afraid. I chose the pier at Utøya. I think it makes the most sense based on how he shot the other side of the island for 10-15 minutes ago. I take a good swing to get right on the pier. Two Delta sitting in front of the boat with a shield. We shrink down as low as we can. Two Delta sits two behind us and protect the people with weapons. We expect that they will shoot at us when we run into the island.

15.57 - He had shot at us in advance, so why should he not do it again if he was there? So it was very odd, but we were not afraid. So I can say at once that it was absolutely right that we joined to the island, entirely justifiable. We were there to fetch the police and get them to Utøya as soon as possible. It was our goal, and their goal was to get there as fast as possible. If they should have us land, it would have taken time. There comes a boy running towards us when we arrive. He runs out on the pier, and they just kept checking him and put him up in our boat. I feel that we can not be there so long, I do not want to be there, so I just put the boat in reverse. Then comes a boy running out of the woods here who asks us to wait, but we feel the when he is in safety, the police are there and he is safe.

16.00 - We sailed to Storøya. Then the Bjørn's boat with the police, the six who were in the boat came a minute and a half after we'd been there. It was they who subsequently arrested him. The first youth thought he was back here. [Pointing to map] Therefore, it was sent in that direction. I then drove back towards Storøya and met a boat full of police officers. They waved at us and we are running up to them. There are six or seven police officers in the boat. They jumped into our boat. Then actually happens much the same as on the first trip. I think the guys in the boat were more excited than me. We drove back towards Stortøya to hit [mentions a woman]. I steered over to her and she jumps into the boat again. I thought while I was doing this I had little gasoline on the boat, which bothered me a bit.

16.03 - So when we come back to Storøya and I found her partner, then drive into the country to wait for my uncle to come with gasoline. The Thorbjørn boat came into Storøya. The skipper got off the boat. I ask, "How is it going with you?" He looks very worn out. He said: "My partner is shot. I know that it goes cold down my back." I understood that he would not talk. I went to who was in command, and asked if they had arrested him so that we could continue to run and grab people. There was nothing clarified. I remember that they said that the car Breivik had was on Utvika's landside and that there was a shotgun in it and no one thought was a bomb. Then we stood, because new boats with young people from Utøya. I see a boat with maybe three youngsters. They asked hysterically, "Are you the real police?". This is because they had seen Breivik in his police uniform earlier. [Breivik appears to smile, and drinks some water.]

16.06 - Then we conducted a number of the youths of the road to be picked up by ambulances. Where they ran off, I do not know. It started to get very far police cars and ambulances, and ... It was crazy really. While we were there we heard that it was calling on the radio that they needed ambulances to Utvika. But no one went there. Lill-Hege asked why there was no one left at Utvika. Then answered them that there was someone who knew where it was. So Lill-Hege asked if she would join and lead the way. So then she went with an ambulance there. Then I got gas and went down to the boat again. So we were more than three boats that took more police over to Utøya, dog patrols and stuff.

16.08 - It was me and [mentions two people] who ran against Utøya then. I had two police officers and the time was past seven. We drove to the pier, but there was a lot of police there and they had good control. Then came the connection that we were driving around the island to secure it. We drove north towards Stoltenberget. Here I told the police that it set no. When we were 40-50 feet from said one who had the aim, "they're dead." I asked, "what must we do, we'll run into them?" He said we could run in there and see if they are dead or ... At least they jumped ashore here. We were maybe six to seven feet of those sitting on the bank here. [He points to where and describes how his experience and what he saw] They jumped off here [pointing to the map].

16.10 - What happens is I pull away a bit. What I can also say: When I was on my way to Utvika for the second time, then Lill-Hege called me. She tells him the one I brought with me the first time has said that the shooter was dressed as a cop. She said quickly: "He has police clothes." I said it to Delta, but they already knew it. I'm running out and I get more time to think. Until then I had gone on autopilot. I pulled myself away and started thinking a bit. I'm getting a little scared. I'm thinking, "If there is a policeman and waving at me, I do not run to him. When it is certain that he waved at me. "It's been a boat from the fire department, so I run over to it to get the info. They see only: "Keep away, it is not clear." I do not want to listen to them, but I stick out in the boat. Things are not clear. They say: "We can not lie in a cluster here, so we must spread out." I run into [explains how] to see if there are any there.

16.13 - Where no one that I see. So then I think then I go into Utvika and find Lill-Hege. When I got in there, so she stood on the pier, and then it happens maybe not so much there anymore, it's a bit later. So she comes up to my boat again. Also we run out again. Then it's really the same thing that happens, we go out to the fire department again to see if things are clear. They are not. So when we, just like in the water here, and waiting for things to get clear. There is not much we can do right then and there when we waited so we began to freeze. and we were very cold. So we decided to go home and change clothes and stuff, and running out to the pier at Utøya again to see if we can be of assistance. There is a lot going on here, "Thorbjørn" is here, as are filled with young people who are not physically damaged. We are located next door in case there is someone who is injured in need of us. There then begins to be much helicopter traffic in the air and a lot of trouble really. It's a bit quieter period really, but while we are here so there is the Delta with guns and aim inwards here. Then we realize that it is not completely clarified.

16.17 Holden: - How did the evening end?

16.17 Hansen: - The evening ends with us looking in the water for the dead. We were in on it for a while and we found nothing but the clothes, but there was plenty of that in the water. We continue to look, stalling a bit on the pier and try to do what we can do.

16.18 Holden - When are you home again?

16.18 Hansen: - There is no equipment in our boat to participate so the evening we drive to Storøya and delivered equipment. Then there were also around 8 people on Storøya. We delivered it and went home at about half ten. Before we run a lap around the island to see what really happened. When we see the dead here [pointing to the map] We looked dead in the pump house and the southern tip.

16.19 Holden - You said somewhere that it was a tough choice to leave the southern tip when you saw that there were people there?

16.19 Hansen: - Yes, it bothered us much, since we had been there before the shooting happened there. Since then it has been tough. And especially in the aftermath because many of them were dead or injured when we came back the next time. But the choices in such a situation is correct, we fall for it all the time. We have asked ourselves whether it was correct. "What is right? It's hard to say." We could not be everywhere all the time.

16.20 Holden: - Now, you told us what you and your partner did this day. Can you say something about the time leading up to today has been?

16.20 Hansen: - There are ups and downs. It's hard to find a meaning to what has happened or any sense of what has happened. There were young people who were killed in the most brutal way it can be done. For ordinary people it is impossible to find any sense in it. It has at times been tough. It was fun before, this is not even funny anymore. There have been ups and downs.

16.21 Holden: - Then I say thank you.

16.21 Bejer Engh: - I want to say that you've done a fantastic job.

16.21 Hansen: - There were many of us. It's not just us.

16.21 Arntzen: - Does the counsel have any questions?

16.22 Lawyer Hege Salomon: - Yes. I realize that we do not have much time left, but just a quick question. The three girls that you picked up in the boat, how was their state of mind?

16.22 Hansen: - The first girl we brought up, I figured that was very scared. She lay completely flat in the back of the boat. She had almost no clothes on, so we helped her with some clothes.

16.22 Salomon: - Did she say anything?

16.23 Hansen: - Very little. She said well that it was a cop that shot, but I do not remember. They said very little during the night.

16.23 Salomon: - Have you talked to them afterwards?

16.23 Hansen: - We have.

16.23 Salomon: - What is it?

16.23 Hansen: - It's nice. That's the nice bit of all this. There is not much nice, but that's it.

16.24 Salomon: - How have you been following up afterwards?

16.24 Hansen: - I think the follow-up has been very good. We have not really gotten the help that we wanted. Both the municipality and others. In the beginning we met once a week. We got to meet the others who had been there at the same time, we could share experiences. We saw what the others had experienced, and that is very important.

16.25 Mette Yvonne Larsen - Hansen, just to give an image. There has been much talk about boaters. Can you tell us about when you and Lill-Hege were out on the water?

16.25 Hansen: - Yes I know because when Jens Stoltenberg was on Nyhetskanalen we responded. Then it was 5:59 p.m.. We were at Reiulf at 6:05 p.m.. We went at once we saw the proportion of it on the news channel. After that, things happened very fast.

16.25 Larsen - Do you have any sense of how many boaters were on the water either before or during?

16.26 Hansen: - When we came to Reiulf we saw boats engaged in Utvika camping.

16.26 Larsen: - What did you see of the skipper?

16.26 Hansen: - What they do is they are trying to drag people out of the water. Therefore we choose to go back.

16.26 Larsen - How many would you estimate the boaters helped forward to participate the evacuation?.

16.27 Hansen: - I do not think it was so much more than ten boats before he was arrested. From half past six to seven there were many.

16.27 Larsen - Have you talked about the boating people? Do you know when they first came and rescued anybody out there?

16.27 Hansen: - It's one of the big questions. I do not think they have were out before 6:00 p.m.. The first of Utøya swam all the way. I would think it was just before 6.

16.27 Breivik: - I have a note to the court: He informed that there were shots fired. I observed some boats that tried to fix up the political extremists from AUF indoctrination camp. When I fired the shot, it was intended as a warning shot. If I had wished I had taken aim properly. I looked at them as collateral. The rule was that if they did not move immediately, I would shoot to kill. In this case, I shot to scare.

16.28 Witness Oddvar Hansen is done and witness Bjørn Ihler arrives.

16.29 The last witness, Bjørn Ihler, takes place in the witness box. He is an AUF member, and was Sydspissen, where he took care of the two children who were on the island.

16.30 Holden: - We are a bit overdue, so we regret that there was little wait. Can you explain what was the reason you were at Utøya?

16.30 Ihler: - I am a member of AUF, this was the third time I was on Utøya, and that's really it.

16.30 Holden: - How long have you gone on summer camp there?

16.30 Ihler: - Since I was 16, I think.

16.30 Holden: - And what day did you arrive?

16.30 Ihler: - I arrived there on Thursday 21.

16.30 Holden: - We have touched on Utøya safety concerns in testimony to Brenna. What did you think of security when you crossed over?

16.31 Ihler: - I was searched, I had a pocket knife that was confiscated. They were stricter that year than they have been before. I think they had the intention to hold me back to look through my stuff. There was a boat that went just as I arrived, but I was held back then, so I was sitting talking to the guards for an hour. And then they told that they had been stricter on security than previous years.

16.32 Holden: - When you tell how you experienced this afternoon 22 July?

16.33 Ihler: - We were gathered in the Great Hall, I was at a meeting on the situation in Western Sahara. I was already in the Great Hall and we were gathered there to be informed about the bomb in Oslo. Then I saw pictures from the government quarter on a mobile phone. It looked like a war zone. There had to have been a big explosion. I wondered what this was. While raging in mind that the building had been blown up, I thought it might be political terrorism. If it was, Utøya could be a natural next target, I thought. At the same time we were informed that Utøya was safe, that we would be there and that it was the safest place to be right there. The phones went round again and we contacted our families. After the information meeting in Oslo - and Akershus delegation I went to my tent and talked with my family. We talked about what had happened before we met someone who had arrived on the same boat as Breivik apparently had made. They were in shock over the situation - and then we began to hear shots.

16.36 - Right after came in someone with a yellow reflective vest and asked us to gather in the camp. Those I was with then went inland at the head of the camp while we heard shots. I thought and hoped it was someone who was trying to scare us. It was hard to understand what happened. Breivik walked in front of the main hall. I saw him shoot a person at close range at the café. The gun looked so strange. It looked like there were modifications on it.

16.37 Holden: - How far away were you when this person was shot?

16.38 Ihler: - I was at the extremity of the tent camp. What happened, happened along the gravel path along the main hall. Approximately 75 meters, I estimate. [He explains that he started running.] I guess, without my knowing it, we were shot at. I have been there since then, and it is difficult to understand that it is possible to run there at all. I lay behind some tree roots and called my dad. It was unreal. Nobody thought that something like that could happen. It took a while before he understand how dangerous the situation was. I did not understand what was happening.

16.39 Holden: - Were you with anyone else at this time?

16.39 Ihler: - Just as I have not quite grasped it, I kept with Kjetil, which is a very good friend of mine.

16.39 Holden: - Bano Rashid?

16.39 Ihler: - Bano was also with us when we were at the furthest tent camp, but I do not know where she was from when we started to run.

16.40 Holden: - I can just point out that in this police interrogation of 29 August, you explained that, after this phone conversation with your father, you and Kjetil then ran upward path, Bano ran south.

16.40 Ihler: - That's right. She was very scared. Found it too, we had no idea what this was. But we went at least down on Kjærlighetsstien and we went to the right of where we were, that is, northward really. And I [name omitted] and asked people to remain low, to take off their clothes and exposed to be quiet. There were people standing upright and talking loudly. And even if we did not understand what this was, we perceived that there could be a potentially dangerous situation. So we urged people to stay as well hidden as possible. We moved slowly to the pump house. On the way there is a steep downhill. On a slope on the way down there sat a little boy on a stump. He looked completely lost out, so we took him. We decided to hide in a place where we have an overview of the trail in both directions. We communicated with miming and stuff like that. The little boy panicked, but at the same time I think he understood the situation and was good at being quiet. I held his mouth and tried to keep him calm so he would not try to run. We heard shots all the time sounds around us and did not know where this person was. At one time [name omitted] saw a person who was very tall and dressed in dark and we wanted a good look at what it was. We were not far from being discovered by exploring it. We decided to keep us in hiding instead of finding out what it was. We heard shots all the time around us and were terrified. The little boy expressed fear more than others did.

16.44 - And we were more people in the group. [Mentions those he was with.] We heard that the shots came closer. A large group of people came running through the woods. Me and [the boy] ran with them. We hit another boy who was companion to the little boy I ran with. None of them had seen anything of their fathers, that they were interested in finding them, but we had to run with the group. We followed Kjærlighetsstien south. We were particularly aware of the places that were open. The boys and I tried to keep track of what was going towards the island. Everything was possible. At one point we had to leave Kjærlighetsstien because it was a bunch of people who had been shot there. We had to run around them. We saw clearly what had happened there, and the center of the mound there was a cell phone ringing. It is something that made the biggest impression on me that day. I got a kind of tunnel vision.

16.45 Holden: - Did you recognize who was there?

16.45 Ihler: - I did not recognize anyone there.

16.45 Holden: - How did the boys react to this?

16.45 Ihler: - The boys reacted like me. They blocked it out and got a kind of tunnel vision. My tunnel vision was to keep track of the boys.

16.46 - We tried to get as far out on the tip as possible, and just when I lost a bit track of where the boys were, I found them at the back of the group. I lent my phone to one of them, and we saw that there were boats in the water, and that the land side was a long, long row of blue lights. We also saw a helicopter in the air and thought it was a police helicopter, so we started to wave with our clothes again. We did not know if it was safe or not, but we knew we had to get away from Utøya. And there was also something the boys said, they said he would never return to Utøya, Utøya that was ruined for him. And having lent my phone, I called my dad. When I called he, Breivik, came up behind me and said he was from the police and that we were safe. When he called our attention we turned towards him. He was in police uniform and it seemed legitimate. We thought that now the police must be on the island. When I turned around and saw him raise his gun, I threw myself into the water. The boys threw themselves at me.

16.49 - And I lost track of where the boys were. I sank because I had a wool sweater on that was terribly heavy. I got off my wool sweater and stood upright in the water. I saw him stand and shoot. I thought that he shot at me. I perceived it like he was aiming at me and fired but did not hit. At that moment it was as if my soul left the body. Breivik was maybe ten feet away and there was blood in the water. I felt that all hope was lost and now I could die at any time. It is an indescribable feeling: Now I do not exist anymore. We swam and floundered against some bushes. I swam to shore and got myself tucked behind some bushes. I saw several people he had met earlier. After a little while, one little boy and said, "He saved me, he spared me." I tried to get him to be quiet. Then we were together again, and I focused on the boys. It took a long while, but the boys and a girl who was with us was cold, so we decided to creep up on shore to warm up. None of us were hit, but we had tears and tried to bandaged the wounded. We were sitting on some stone slabs and wait.

16.52 - And while we sat there, after a while... Let me first ... I just have to say, we tried there to distract the boys' attention by talking to them about completely different things.. Ali Esbati came to us and I and he and the others also tried to talk to the boys about other things and also with each other, because at the time we could not bear to take in what had happened. Just beyond we could see human bodies floating on the water. So we talked about what we wanted for Christmas, and the boys talked about the drive to built a tree house. We tried not to get them to think about whether their parents had survived or not. While we sat there then came a policeman through the woods. This time a real cop, but we did not know. Then we were part way into the water until we realized that he was a real cop. He was wearing a helmet, and when he approached us, he demonstrated quite clearly that he would not shoot us, I think he took his gun behind his back or something.

16.55 - We had no choice but to trust him. He said that "the madman got caught," I think it was the words he used and that we had to stay there and wait. I think I tried to get him to take the boys because it was a strain for them. They felt extremely unsafe. I wanted them to tend to the boys. The boys and I knew that they had to take over those who were injured first. We were seated and waiting. Then came the five to six politicize people through the woods. They went out on the southern tip and began to aim toward the woods. I figured that there could be more, and we actually are not safe where we are. We had been told not to move into the island, but a policeman came back to us, took us to a boat and on to the mainland.

16.57 Holden: - What happened on the mainland?

16.58 Ihler: - On the mainland, it was chaotic with ambulances and police officers going about. There were people on stretchers with life-threatening major damage. There were people in panic, screaming. We tried to move up to the main road. There were dunes. I stood with the boys. I would not let go of them until I found that they were in safe hands. It was complete chaos with many ambulances trying to reach. We were brought on board in health express. I borrowed a phone and got told my father that I was safe. I said it before, but there was a time when I was not in safety. I was brought to Sundvollen Hotel where I was registered and the boys were eventually taken care of by health professionals. I was told to take a quick shower. Me and a friend found a hotel room. We tried to watch the news to get an overview. I understood then that Jens Stoltenberg was alive, since he stood there and spoke on television.

17.00 Holden: - So I know that you were picked up by your parents around twelve or one, and went home. So we should look into what happens afterwards, how has it been?

17.01 Ihler: - The first day was absolutely terrible, it felt like everything happened on Sundvolden, all information was Sundvolden. [He talks about when he saw police officers for the first time afterwards.] Seeing policemen after what had happened was terrible. We had all confidence in the police before 22 July and Breivik stripped off that confidence when he dressed in a police uniform. [Breivik smiles.] Then I met a friend of mine who had almost been through the same as me, and it helped a lot. Being able to talk to someone who understands, that has been very important in the aftermath.

17.03 - We talked about it and were told that the next day would be a gathering of survivors AUFers from Oslo. The next day I was at the gathering place for AUFers. It was gathering for some time to come, and particularly when nominal lists of those who had died came, it was important to gather and talk about the ones we have lost and the experiences we had on Utøya. But what was perhaps most important was when we were talking about completely different things. When we went to the cinema, the experience to be with a group that had experienced this and then do something completely different was an extremely great relief.

17.03 Holden: - And from cinema visits and up to today?

17.04 Ihler: - Things have been better. I struggle with loud noises and loud bangs. When I heard doors slammed, I was back at Utøya and looked for places to hide and I struggled to see police officers, helicopters and ambulances. Since then, it's gone in waves. There have been periods that have been as bad as the first time. [Explains about this]. [Explains how he experienced difficult periods]. I had that goal that I was going back to study in Liverpool. [Explains about who has given him the support to reach that goal]. I came back to study, but to stay there required that I changed apartments. The GPS coordinates of where I lived first were in the manifest, so I was worried. A good friend and I moved into a house some distance away there.

17.06 - The university I go to has been very supportive. I know I can get help. At the same time distance to what happened here has to be created in Liverpool, and it has at times been frustrating. There were a lot happening in Norway, and I only kept updated via online newspapers. What irritated me the most at this time was when the justice minister called the attorney Larsen and asked her to curb criticism. I was worried for my country, that a single case would change the way we handled things, that the Attorney General could affect individual cases that way.

17.08 - The forces have been set in motion to change society in many ways. And I will not give terrorism the power to change society. That worried me. I went back to Oslo and spoke with Jan Bohler to get clarity on what was going on here. It turned out that it was not as big a concern. I was back at the first prison meeting that the survivors could attend. I wanted to know that the trial should go as it should.

17.09 Holden: - You have been closely following what happened?

17.09 Ihler: - [Ihler tells of a heavy period at Christmas. He says he has struggled with studies after Christmas.]

17.10 - I began to pursue things I like to do. Theatre, shows and plays. I started working for the Norwegian Opera. Though things were difficult, I struggled with concentration, "flashbacks," grief. I suddenly felt deep sorrow at certain times. [Ihler said again there were especially heavy periods before Easter and before the trial]

17.11 Holden: - You have explained the experiences of the island and its aftermath. Before we round off: Can you say something briefly about ideas for the future?

17.11 Ihler: - I hope to continue with what I would pursue. It is a form of political activism by being a theatre and film producer. I have the ambition to make entertainment films with underlying political message. I think I'm going back to Liverpool.

17.12 Holden - Have you had contact with the two boys afterward?

17.12 Ihler: - I've met them once afterward. We played Playstation and they were on their way back to their regular lives. As children, they had an amazing ability to maybe play away evil, and come back to life. They are wonderful boys.

17.13 Holden - It was fitting place to draw the line.

17.13 Arntzen: - Have defending any questions?

17.13 Lippestad: - A few. You've explained, Ihler, that you saw Breivik on several occasions. You said little about it, but I would like you to try to remember some more. Do you remember what you thought about him when you saw him on Sydspissen?

17.14 Ihler: - He moved controlled, and what I perceived as slow in many ways, calculated. The whole performance was very quiet, at least in terms of what the situation was. There was no yelling, there was no sudden movements or running, it was that he quietly lifted his gun and started shooting.

17.15 Lippestad: - You used the word "calculated", can you elaborate on that?

17.15 Ihler: - There are mainly... this is the perception that I might have formed, but I thought some about the way he moved on, that is a very calm and cool way. It seemed like there was a plan behind all the movements, the way I experienced it, then.

17.16 Lippestad: - You said early on that [name omitted], when you lay in the reeds there, shouting something like, "He saved me." How do you see that? Did you think that he might have spared him? "

17.16 Ihler: - I thought it might be a situation where he had been missed, for example, how he stood there and a shot had been deflected. I did not think at the time that it was a deliberate act not to shoot him.

17.17 Lippestad: - [name omitted] But how do you think he felt about that?

17.17 Ihler: - I think he felt like he was spared.

17.17 Lippestad: - You also said that Breivik came up right behind you and said he was from the police. Can you elaborate on the situation?

17.18 Ihler: - We heard he was behind us and he called upon our attention, I turned to him and saw he was in police uniform. I still had my dad on the phone as far as I remember. I saw Breivik lift his rifle, then I lost my phone.

17.19 Lippestad: - When he lifted his rifle, he performed in such a way that it could be a real cop?

17.19 Ihler: - He did not act directly threatening, it is a matter of nanoseconds this. I saw he raised his rifle.

17.20 Lippestad: - Why do you think he said he was a cop?

17.20 Ihler: - I think it was so we were not going to run away, or so we should get up from Skolestua.

17.20 Assistant Attorney General Anne-Gry Rønning-Aaby shows an image from Sydspissen and asks Ihler to explain where he was sitting with the two boys when Breivik was referring to him.

17.21 Ihler: - When I was aiming at, I was in the water. I understood that he was referring to me and not the boys.

17.21 Lawyer Rønning-Aaby: - ​​Did you have the impression that the boys would be spared?

17.22 Ihler: - We understood that we were in the same danger as everyone else on Utøya. [Showing the picture where he was when Breivik came out on Sydspissen] [Showcases a new picture and asks Ihler to describe what he sees] I had no control over the boys right then, so I felt that he was referring to me, no one else. I think we were sitting in the bushes there. It was where we hid. It is natural that this is us.

17.23 Rønning-Aaby: - ​​The time was 18:30. You said you hid in the bushes there, but also part of the pump housing. Can you say a little about what kind of communication there was between those who hid in the various places there?

17.23 Ihler: - We tried to keep track of where the shots were coming from and stuff like that. Via hand signals, so we were in a way agreed that those who were at the pump house would go one way and we should go the other. So we agreed there.

17.24 Rønning-Aaby: - ​​So you talked to your father and your mother on the phone. What did you talk about?

17.24 Ihler: - I can not remember talking to my mom on the phone, but I can remember having heard her in the background while I talked to my dad, and it sounded as if she had panicked, she understood what took place and was very worried. My father remained calmer, he instructed me in what I should do. It went on to keep myself as invisible as possible. He gave me very strict orders not to try to be a hero. He said I should not try to put myself in danger by saving some. They only heard that I was still breathing because most of the time I was silent.

17.25 Rønning-Aaby: - ​​These two boys. Did you ever think they had contact with Breivik if it was only on the southern tip?

17.25 Ihler: - I think that was the only contact they had.

17.25 Rønning-Aaby: - ​​How did the boys behave?

17.25 Ihler: - They understood how serious it was. Although they were very young, they understood the seriousness of the situation. They had panicked, but figured they had to be quiet. Although it was difficult for them to maintain control, they managed it very well.

17.26 Rønning-Aaby: - ​​The last image. This is from the land side. Can you tell how you did it?

17.26 Ihler: - I stood with them. They were very upset, they cried. I stood there with them and tried to fit them. The whole situation was so far away from a normal reality that it was absolutely terrible for both me and the boys.

17.27 Frode Elgesem: - When was the meeting with the boys?

17.27 Ihler: - Late in August. I do not know what happened to them after that.

17.27 Judge Arntzen: - Then you're done here. Thank you for attending.

17.27 Ihler: - You're welcome.

17.27 Arntzen: - Court is adjourned.

17.27 Breivik stands up and talks to his defense while the courtroom empties.

17.28 Breivik smiles before he is handcuffed and led out of the courtroom.