Oral History Interview With Josh Lopez

MM: Okay. So, hi. (Laughs) Let me just do a quick intro and then we can get into the questions. So today is May 20th, 2020, and this is an interview with Josh. The interviewer is Micah Mizukami. I'm interviewing from my apartment in Honolulu.

So, Josh, how are you today?

JL: Doing alright. A little stressful at work. It's a little bit busy, but and I'm going back to Chicago soon. So it's a lot of orchestrating moves. So it's been a kind of a hectic week.

MM: Oh, wow. (Laughs) When---or, I'll ask about Chicago later. But can you tell me your full name?

JL: Yeah. My full name is Mart Joshua Lopez. Yep.

MM: And you go by. . .

JL: I go by Josh at work. I think my, my nickname, yeah, I put it as Josh usually so.

MM: And then can you tell me where you grew up?

JL: Yeah, I grew up in Mililani. In kind of central part of Oʻahu and also went to Mililani high school and graduated from there, too.

MM: And where are you now? Are you in the Mililani?

JL: Right now, I'm in Mililani because of the virus, came here in March, but for the most part, besides college, I've kind of lived in Mililani my whole life.

MM: Can you describe your neighborhood for me?

JL: So I live in the lower part of Mililani Town. It's a little bit more on the quieter side. Kind of an older crowd, and kind of a more quiet, quiet neighborhood. Lots of people walking their dogs in the mornings, and the evenings. So that's kind of how I like to describe it. Lots of parks and area, too, so it's good for families.

MM: And speaking of families, can you describe your family?

JL: Yeah. So besides my, my mom and my dad, I have a younger brother who is a rising senior, at UH Mānoa. But in my household, there's usually there's the four of us. And also my grandparents, my mom's parents.

MM: Okay. And then you mentioned your mom's parents are usually there. Where are they now?

JL: Right now they're in the Philippines. They left, I want to say, January, for a trip to the Philippines to visit family. And their trip was only supposed to go till April, but it's now been extended from April to May and then from May, now to end of June because of the virus.

MM: So are your parents from the Philippines or just your grandparents?

JL: Yeah. So both of my parents are from the Philippines. They immigrated to the United States, specifically Hawaiʻi, in ‘94. And to put that into perspective, I was born in ’96, and I'm the oldest of the two children.

MM: Okay. And you mentioned that you’re trying to figure out moving back to Chicago. So what other places have you lived?

JL: Yeah. So currently I consider Chicago my current residence.I have---I have two places, one in Indianapolis, one in Chicago, but I won't be living in Indianapolis for much longer and Chicago will be my one and permanent residence. Other places that I've lived, I have lived, so Indianapolis, I spent the summer in Chicago, and I also spent half a year living in Singapore for about five to six months while I was in college.

MM: Wow. So have you had any, like, challenges living so far away from family and living in so many different places?

JL: Yeah, I think that there's always a culture shock, especially—not so much Singapore—but definitely moving to Chicago, there's a culture shock. And the other thing about it is I grew up in kind of a big family, and most of us lived in Mililani, so it was hard going from seeing them so often, and, you know, spending time with them to not seeing them at all. So that was the most difficult part, the culture shock and not being physically around family anymore.

MM: Can you describe what kind of culture shock you had when you went to Chicago?

JL: Yeah. I think to put it simply, you know, you grow up in Hawaiʻi, and, you know, you're surrounded by so many different ethnicities. Everyone around you is Filipino, Japanese and whatever it may be. But in Chicago, you're on the train, in my office, regardless of where I was, I was always a minority. And that felt weird coming from a coming from a community and around people who were primarily Filipino, you know, Japanese, Korean, Chinese going to being a minority in Chicago. So that was a little bit tough. And usually how I connect with, you know, culture, back here is, you know, finding places to eat, people to hang out with, and that type of stuff. So it was a little hard to find that in Chicago when I moved.

MM: Have you found any place like that?

JL: Yeah, there's some, there's some places that like, you know, do local Hawaiian food. And also, it's nice. I've found a small community of people from Hawaiʻi in Chicago. And, you know, we have dinners and we hang out and kind of cook things that make us feel a little bit more at home, you know.

MM: That's nice. And you said Chicago was---there is more culture shock there than Singapore. What was Singapore like?

JL: Yeah, I think so Singapore is kind of similar to Hawaiʻi, in a sense, in the fact that it is a---it's an island, right? It's about the same size of Hawaiʻi, actually, if you think about it. But if you think of Hawaiʻi being, you know, a little over 1 million in population in the same exact size, Singapore has 5.5 million. So the biggest difference is the amount of people that are there. But I would say. The thing that was kind of similar is that it was this mishmash and like a combination of so many different cultures. You have, you have Malay, you have Chinese, you have Indians, and all types of people. And so it kind of felt similar. It's like there's all of these different cultures kind of meshing together in one place. So I didn't feel super out of place. And there was a decent sized Filipino population in Singapore as well. So I didn't really feel that left out, you know what I mean. Chicago was a little bit different.

MM: So what, what were you doing in Singapore for half a year?

JL: Yeah. So I took a short break when I was at UH Mānoa, for personal reasons. And I decided to move to Singapore. And I actually worked at a financial tech startup there. And I was working as a marketing intern. And I was there for about, yeah, for about five to six months.

MM: And so you came back to UH Mānoa and when did you graduate?

JL: Came back to UH Mānoa, graduated spring of 2019. So, May of 2019. I graduated with my degree in communications. Before I left for Singapore, I was trying to pursue a business major, but then timeline and I made a personal decision not to pursue the business degree and decided to get a communications degree and never looked back.

MM: Nice. So what are you doing now in Chicago?

JL: So when I first moved—when I first graduated—I had a job out of college working at United Airlines as a systems analyst specifically for the Salesforce platform, which is a—it's a—customer relationship management product, a piece of software. And then January, I recently left United Airlines to work at Salesforce. So the product that I was managing at United, I now work at the company that builds the software. I work as a solutions engineer at Salesforce. And to give you a little bit of background to what that is, is my, my job is finding the intersection between business and technology and helping businesses realize, you know, the full potential that they have with the Salesforce products and Salesforce platform. So I go in, learn about a business, learn their technical architecture, some of the business and technical challenges they have. And I architect a solution for them and become like a technical resource as they try to decide what products they might want to buy.

MM: Wow, that's really cool.

JL: It’s good fun for sure.

MM: So I guess before you came back home, think what were some of your routines back in Chicago and Indianapolis routines?

JL: Oh, routines, you know, wake up, go to work, come back home and try to do things that would, you know, pass by the time, whether it was, I don't know, cooking dinner or playing video games with some of my roommates. And also doing stuff that I like to do personally, which is, you know, I like to cook. I like to bake. I like to play music. And yeah. Some video games with some of my friends. So that's usually how I---that was my usual routine.

MM: And then how about like other organizations you might have been involved in outside of work?

JL: Yeah. I would, I would go to church every Sunday. And also on Tuesdays. Now, I don't even remember it because it's, it's been, you know, with everything, moving, me coming back to Hawaiʻi. I want to say it was, yeah, it was Tuesdays where we would meet for small groups at church. And it was a little bit difficult in the last couple of months because I've been—or the last few months—because I had been living in between Indianapolis and Chicago. So some of it, I would be able to see them in person and sometimes it would mean me joining in online. So there was that church aspect and also small groups during the week.

MM: Nice and so can you tell me a little bit more about why you were moving back and forth between Indianapolis and Chicago?

JL: Yeah. So when, I when I got this new job at Salesforce as a solutions engineer, there was a big enablement kind of training program that I was a part of. And so it required me to, kind of half move to Indianapolis and to do my training in Indianapolis while also still having my apartment in Chicago. So that's kind of why I was—I have—two places, one in Indianapolis, one in Chicago, going back and forth.

MM: And then. So where were you when you first started to hear about Coronavirus, COVID-19?

JL: I think that the first time I heard of it was pretty early on. You know, just like the small news about it, when it was still happening in Wuhan way earlier in the year. But at the moment where I started to worry about it, then I was in Chicago at the time, still at United. But when I started to worry about it was when I was at Salesforce. I was living in Indianapolis and it was leading up to St. Paddy's Day weekend. And some of our coworkers, those were in my cohort, you know, in my training enablement program. We're like, hey, you know, let's go to Chicago for the weekend. ‘Cause it's a big thing, St. Paddy's in Chicago. And more news started to come out. And I was like, “Uh, I don't know if I feel comfortable.” And there were a lot of people who were like, “Yeah, I don't know. I’m not sure either.” But there were still a lot of people that wanted to go. But the point where we decided not to go—sorry I'm kind of rambling on here—but the point where we decided where when we didn't want to go was when St. Patty's Day got canceled. The NBA did a complete stop. I'm sure you remember those moments, but that was when everyone was like, “Okay, crap, this is actually serious. And we should probably take this serious, too.” And we decided to cancel their trip.

MM: Yeah. And how long were you at, in this current position, when all of this started?

JL: This, we were trying to make the decision for a few days or like a week leading up to it.

MM: Uh-Huh.

JL: Because it started getting a little bit more serious. But then once we started seeing more bigger organizations start canceling things, that's when we were like, “Okay, yeah, we should probably not do this.”

MM: And so when did you decide to fly back home?

JL: It was mid-March. So after, after that—what's it called—after that trip that we got canceled, during that week, we started hearing, you know, some of the larger competitors and also partners in our, in our industry. So the likes of, you know, Google, Amazon, Facebook, start to announce, hey, immediately start working from home. And Indianapolis at the time wasn't doing so bad, but I knew by the end of the week. “Hey, you know what? We're gonna have to, we're gonna have to work from home and offices are gonna be closed.” So I had a feeling, but by the end of the week, so mid, mid-March, I decided to—once we heard about the work from home—I immediately booked my ticket and flew back home.

MM: And were there any confirmed cases in Chicago or Indianapolis at that time?

JL: Yea there was. It was kind of weird because we, you know, we heard cases there. I think at the time there were about. Around 10 cases in Indianapolis or Indiana and maybe like eight of them were like in Indianapolis. It was a little weird, though, because when I got back, I got emails from my apartments saying that there was a confirmed case of COVID-19 in my apartment. So that was a little freaky. But fortunately, you know, I'm healthy, and also my roommates who are still there are still healthy, too.

MM: That's good. So what was it like flying back home like when all of this was going on?

(Laughter)

JL: Oh, it was a little nerve wracking. It was a little nerve wracking because, you know, I had a N95 mask because I actually, before we even canceled the trip, before we even did any of that stuff, weeks leading up to it, my brother was telling me how, how serious it was getting in Singapore because he was living in Singapore at that time. And I like, “Okay, I should buy a N95 mask cause who knows what happens.” And it came in just in time for me to fly back to Hawaiʻi. And I was walking through the Indianapolis airport, I was probably part of the 2% of people that were wearing a mask. So that was a little scary to me, and made me realize how hard it is to sleep wearing a mask so that.

MM: (Laughs)

JL: Yeah, so it wasn't, it wasn't very fun. But when I got to—when I had a layover in—San Francisco, people were taking it a little bit more seriously there. Probably because of the geographic location, and how it, you know, it's kind of a gate from Asia and the Pacific. So that might be why. But yeah, it was a little scary for sure.

MM: So you mentioned your brother was in Singapore.

JL: Mhm.

MM: So when did he start telling you about the situation there?

JL: Probably about a few weeks before anything got bad in in the U.S., before things got really serious in the US. He was telling me about it, about how his classes, his large classes, his lecture, lecture classes got moved to online. And his smaller classes were still meeting in person. But yeah, he said, like his school was changing. The way they operated was a little bit different, and had to be a little bit more careful with using masks and, you know, making sure you sanitize a little bit better than usual.

MM: And what was he doing in Singapore?

JL: So my brother is—was—studying abroad at the National University of Singapore. He's currently a business student at the Shidler College of Business. But he was doing his study abroad there.

MM: And where is he now?

JL: He's in like a room over. Yeah, he's, he's chilling. But yeah, he's in Hawaiʻi now. He had essentially like three or four days to pack all of his stuff, say goodbye to his friends, talk to his professors, making sure that he can operate the rest of the semester online, and we booked him a ticket, and he came right home.

MM: Was this before or after you gone?

JL: It was after me probably about a week and a half, two weeks after I've already been in Hawaiʻi.

MM: Okay. And then so where you already taking other kinds of precautions before you came back home? While you're still living in Indianapolis?

JL: Not not too much, because I didn't go too much. I didn't go out that much in Indianapolis. We were kind of. Because of: one, because of the weather sometimes, but two, knowing about the virus, as I was coming up, we, we took precautions of not going out as much. Not going out to bars or restaurants or whatever it may be. So that was kind of the only precaution that we took.

MM: And how about on the plane besides the mask? Did you do anything else?

JL: Yeah, mask. Hand sanitizer. If I had the opportunity, I would’ve switched seats. But the plane was pretty packed. It was kind of scary because the plane to Honolulu was absolutely packed. And there were a lot of people from the—in the age category—that could have been easily compromised. So that was a little shocking.

MM: And this was before Hawaiʻi put in the 14-day quarantine, right? Did it seem like people were worried at Honolulu Airport?

JL: No. Not at all. And also, I say that because my brother, when he came home, he said that, you know, immigration and security did not check his temperature. They even asked him where he was in the last month, and he told them, “I was in Malaysia. I was in Taiwan. I've been in Singapore.” He was listing all these places. And they were like, “Okay, cool.”

(Laughter)

JL: They let him go. No temperature check. No like, “Hey, how are you feeling? Like, do you need to be quarantined?” None of that. So, yeah, so it's a little interesting, but. Yeah, no, no, no sense of urgency when, when we came to Hawaiʻi for the both of us.

MM: So have your thoughts about COVID-19 changed at all since it first started?

JL: There's a lot of ups and downs, I think moments of like disbelief. And then moments of like, “Oh, this is actually really, really bad,” you know. So there was a lot of ups and downs and ebbs and flows in the way that I saw COVID-19, but generally, it just sucks. You know, that's all I can say about it. And it's just unfortunate with all the effects that it's had on everything in our lives. So.

MM: So it seems like it's affected your family in a lot of different ways, like your grandparents yourself, your brother. How about your parents? Has it affected them in any way?

JL: A little bit. So, we're grateful that, you know, my, my mom, she works in the medical field. She works at a sleep lab. So her work is considered essential. My dad works as a janitor for the City and County at the Pearl City Police Station, so his work is also considered essential. So they haven't---there hasn't been much of a change to their jobs, except my mom has lost a little bit of hours for the safety of the employees. But other than that, they, they haven't been affected much. I think that it has changed my dad's job and my mom's job a little bit of making sure that, you know, the police station and also the clinic is operating at the highest, you know, sanitary standard because of everything that's going on. And it's affected their jobs a little bit. But financially, monetarily, not too much.

MM: And how has it affected like your day to day routines?

JL: I think day to day routines, since, okay---so before this, my parents were---it was literally just my mom and my dad living in the house so that, I'm sure was a little bit lonely.

Some basic things—it hasn’t really changed my routine as much—I think my brother and I, we were cooking a lot more and like experimenting with stuff a lot more. We started doing a little bit of gardening outside. But for my parents, I think it's about the same. I'm sure they like having us home and they get to---they don't have to cook as much because a lot of times we're cooking dinner a few times of the week. So that's, that's a good thing for them, I guess.

MM: Yeah. So what is it like being reunited? (Laughs)

JL: It's, it's funny. I don't know. It's weird because we did not expect any of us to be in the same place. Well, okay, actually, I take that back.

So my parents and my grandparents, even me, at the end of April, we were all supposed to fly to Singapore and hang out with my brother and do a small little vacation. And my parents were supposed to go to the Philippines, too, but all of that got canceled at the end of March when my parents were going to the Philippines.

So, it's---we expected to be together in late April, but—or mid-April or whatever it was—but we did not expect to be together in Hawaiʻi, I'll say that. So it's a little, it's funny. But I'm super grateful for the time. I think that during this crisis, I realized that home was the best place for me to be. So no complaints.

MM: And how are your grandparents doing?

JL: They're good. They're safe, they're. They're healthy, they're a little bit far out from, you know, the major airports since they kind of live in a provincial area, but they, they have been doing all right.

And it’s pretty strict out there, though, as far as lockdown. They want to come home, but they know that it's, it's not really safe right now. And so they'll come home when the opportunity shows up. Yeah.

MM: So has COVID-19 affected, like, how you communicate with your friends and family in any way?

JL: Well, it's funny because the. . . . My friends here in Hawaiʻi, the communication hasn't changed as much because I'm still video chatting them anyway when I'm in Chicago. It's, it's different because I don't have as much physical hanging out time with, with friends whoever they are because of the, you know, the virus and social distancing. But it has changed the way that I interact with my friends a little bit. And I say that because, you know, we spend so much time on the Internet and spent so much time staring at our screens. And when, when you hang out with friends, it takes a lot of energy, especially if you've been working at home all day and you're sitting in front of a computer talking to people. And when I talk with my friends, I, I try to make the time a little bit more intentional and to focus on nurturing the friendship, relationship, with my friends, because, you know, it's, it's not easy to call them anymore because you're just so exhausted and so fatigued from it. So I try to make the most out of it. So I'm trying to be a little bit more intentional with my time that I have with my friends, whether digitally or whatever it is.

MM: So have you had any, like, big challenges from COVID-19? Like switching to working from home or anything being at home?

JL: Yeah. I think the fatigue is, is a lot. Because when I first came here, I was kind of on a strict schedule where I needed to start my days at 8:30 in the morning Eastern Time, which is 2:30 in the morning Hawaiʻi Time. So I was---it was terrible, but I got used to it.

And then, so there's a lot of digital fatigue. And like I was in front of a computer for like 7-8 hours a day. And then when I got done with work, you know, a great way for me to de-stress and to relax is to be on my phone and watch Netflix or YouTube. And I couldn't do that because my eyes just didn't want to even stare at a computer anymore or stare at my phone anymore. So that was a little bit difficult.

The other thing that I've been challenged with, I think personally, is the emotional fatigue because of hearing about all my friends who have lost their jobs or have been furloughed or taking pay cuts because of COVID-19. And it's rough because it's not happening to me. And I'm really grateful that I have a really stable job right now. But hearing about all those things can also, can get really exhausting and kind of take a toll. Yeah.

MM: Yeah, for sure. So can you talk about your daily schedule now, if you have to start work at 3:30 a.m.? Like what. . .

JL: So it's not too bad now because it's a little bit. I've been---my schedule has changed a little bit. It's a little bit more self-directed, which is really nice. ‘Cause, you know, I was transitioning out of that training phase, but now I wake up at—that was only for a little bit that I did the 2:30 thing—but now I have been waking up at like 5:00, 5:30, which for me is not that bad compared to 2:30. It's totally fine. So that's kind of my schedule now. Other than that, my schedule has been the same.

MM: And then. You talked about like this digital fatigue. So how---what have you been doing to try and help with that?

JL: I try---when I get breaks, I try to go out, take a walk. Get some fresh air. And also after, after work try to spend as much time outside the house, whether it's just walking around or going out for a workout or going out for a run, whatever it may be. That's kind of how I've been dealing with it.

MM: So are you watching like less Netflix and other streaming stuff? On your phone less after work?

JL: I, I wouldn't say so. It's a little weird because now that sometimes when I go on like my YouTube, I watch a lot of YouTube on my subscription list. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I have so much stuff to catch up on.” So that says a lot about---usually that's not an issue.

(Laughter)

JL: So that's, that's been kind of weird that I haven't been on my phone as much.

MM: So you mentioned like going out for runs and walks, starting a garden with your brother. Is there anything else you do for recreation? Or fun with by yourself or with your family?

JL: No, I think that's about it. Cooking. Doing a little bit of planting and gardening and yeah. Going out for walks. That's about it. Nothing crazy.

MM: So what do you and your brother like to cook or bake?

JL: Yeah, so it depends. So sometimes if my mom is home, we definitely do a lot of baking of like Filipino food, and Filipino desserts and stuff like that. But usually my brother and I, whatever, honestly, whatever we're craving. Like, and a lot of times we end up craving the same exact thing, so it's kind of funny how that works out.

MM: (Laughs) And then you mentioned, like in your neighborhood, a lot of people like walk their dogs and stuff. And there's all of those parks. But have you noticed any, like, changes in behaviors in your neighborhood with COVID-19 going on?

JL: Yeah, hundred percent. Way more people than I've ever seen ever in my life going out and walking outside, which is really, really weird. And it's---I've never seen so many people going out and jogging and walking their dogs all at the same time. And it kind of reminds me---I don't know if you remember this in like 20—what was it?—2016 when Pokémon Go came out? It’s like, that's what it felt like. Like everyone was outside on their—not necessarily on their phones—but everyone was outside, out and about, hanging out, talking to people, and that's what it feels like now, just a little bit more grim.

MM: (Laughs) Wow. That, that's unexpected. (Laughs)

JL: Yeah. I feel like people are a little bit more active, but I don't know if that's a. . . . Maybe it's a byproduct of the pandemic, who knows.

MM: Would you say that's like across all ages, all ethnicities?

JL: All ages, everyone, yeah.

MM: Wow. Let’s see. So how has COVID-19 affected the communities you are involved in? Like you mentioned in your apartment building, someone was there. How about maybe coworkers, or friends?

JL: Yeah. A lot of people I think the first thing that they think about when this first happened was, “How do I get back home?” Right?. Like, “How do I be with my family?” So a lot of my coworkers ultimately went to their families, whether that was in Seattle or New York or even if it was a high, you know, a high risk place like New York, they just wanted to be with their family. So it's interesting to see like that was our natural response to, you know, this crisis was that I wanted to be with family. So I thought that was interesting, because I was in that boat myself.

Some of the communities that I’m a part of, you know, like church, everything went to a digital platform. And to see kind of the struggle of getting to a digital platform if some churches might not be used to it was kind of interesting. Some churches that I’ve seen and I know about have handled it way better than others, and some have not. And so seeing that kind of struggle has been an interesting observation, I would say.

And then also, like, I guess, because I had a lot of friends that graduated this summer, so one of the things that I think about was the whole graduation season, and how it's been affected. So I don't know if you're familiar, but there's a lot of like drive by graduations happening and that kind of stuff. So it's interesting how people have adapted to that, and stayed within the rules, but still are able to celebrate and provide a unique and, you know, celebratory experience for the graduates, high school and college. So that was interesting to see the community rally together and make it happen.

MM: Yeah. So did you participate in any of those drive by graduations?

JL: Yeah. A ton. A ton.

MM: What was that like?

JL: It was weird.

(Laughter)

JL: It was a little weird. It was scary because, you know, we've also driven by so many and some people are not following social distancing rules. So there's a lot of that. So that kind of scares me. But it was good. It was a good opportunity to, like, you know, see friends and hang out and, you know, keep distance, but be able to chat and stuff like that. So it's like the most social interaction that I've had in a long time. Well, at least in person.

MM: Can you talk about how it works?

JL: Yeah. So what you do is---let's say the grad is at a garage or whatever. Right? And like, you know, people are coming by, they're dropping off leis. I've seen different, different---I've been to several. Some of them are different where you give the lei then the graduate takes a photo with you like at the door of your car. Some people, everyone just parks and you actually go up and lei them, which is a little not very conducive to social distancing. But I've seen a few, and they're really interesting. But the key point to it all is that you're able to celebrate the graduates and take photos with them. And, you know, Hawai’i graduations are a little bit different, so it's nice to see that.

MM: Wow. And then how, or what is an online church service like?

JL: Yeah, so I think it's a little bit different depending on how they operate it. But it honestly, it's exactly the same—at least from my experiences—the exact same format just put on a digital platform. But getting the older people to teach them how to join a live stream or teaching them how to join a webinar type of, you know, or even Zoom type of room, I think is the hardest part for a lot of the churches that I've seen. Especially in my home church here in Hawai’i. So that was kind of the biggest struggle that they've had.

MM: Yeah, definitely. Let’s see. So, self-isolation and flattening the curve have been two of the, really big, major key ideas that have emerged during this pandemic. So how are you and your family, maybe even coworkers, responding to these requests to self-isolate and flatten the curve?

JL: I think that my parents have been pretty good about it, and they've kind of set the example for us too. They've been taking it seriously, so that's been really good. I know some of my other uncles and aunties, when it first happened, didn't really think it was that big of a deal. But knowing, I guess, my parents and their work and the severity of what it could be, they took it pretty seriously. So, you know, self-isolation and keeping distancing and not going out unless you absolutely need to and if it's essential, that's kind of been what we've been doing here at home.

MM: And so do you know anyone personally who has gotten sick?

JL: Fortunately, I have not. I mean, I know people who have been through, you know, scares and that is kind of traumatic, but not anyone that I know that has been infected by the virus.

MM: And then how about maybe friends or colleagues you have in like Singapore or other places? How are they reacting, responding?

JL: It's scary. I think that because I have a lot of friends in Singapore and I have a lot of friends in East Asia, and. . . . They've taken it very seriously, and but now that I look back and I look at some of my friends that live in Korea, some of my friends that live in Hong Kong and Singapore and seeing the steps that they took to flatten the curve and what they can do now today, you know, go out and eat at restaurants and things like that, even though social distancing is still in place. It's a little bit encouraging. But it's a little bit scary because, you know, the U.S. got it a little bit later than everywhere else. But, we got it really bad. So that's that that's the other part of that.

MM: Yeah, just I guess comparatively, since you have so many friends from so many different places that are responding to COVID-19 in very, very different ways, even like comparing Hawaiʻi to like Chicago. Well, like what differences do you see in the response there?

JL: I think there---obviously I'm no expert in this and I'm not a researcher or anything like that, but from my observation is there is just a different attitude with Americans and how we approach this. I think there's a level of like privilege that we have that we can do whatever, whatever we want and, you know, we have the freedom to do that. But, you know, there's a greater good in place that we need to take care of each other. And so, I think some other countries might be realizing that faster than others and have taken it a little bit more seriously. So that's kind of the biggest thing that I've noticed from how we've been handling it, from a people level to some other countries.

MM: Where do you think Hawai’i falls on that spectrum?

JL: You know, I think we've done surprisingly well and I am pretty happy about it. I think there’s a---I think with all the tourists that were originally coming in, it's showing that if we didn't take the proper measures, that it could have been a much worse, a much bigger problem. But I am honestly pretty proud of like how, you know, we've handled it and the steps that we've taken. Of course, we could have been more proactive in other areas and done a little bit faster, but what's done is done and I'm happy that we've had several days in the last couple of weeks where we've had zero reported cases. So that’s---I'm grateful for that.

MM: Yeah, definitely. And so I know you touched upon this briefly about this emotional fatigue, but do you---like how do you think COVID-19 is affecting people's mental and or physical health?

JL: Kind of a lot. And I'll be honest with you, I feel like a lot of my friends and other people I know aren't taking it very well. And it's okay, you know. You know, it's hard ‘cause I know a lot of my friends, they feel like, “Oh, I'm not doing enough during quarantine. I'm not doing this. I'm not productive enough. I'm not getting X, Y and Z done. I should be getting this certification or learning this new thing or getting this new degree or whatever it may be.”

But I kind of told them, and I try to tell myself, too, it's like, “We're in crisis. You don't have to do X, Y and Z, you'll have bad days, you'll have bad weeks, and that's just okay.” You know what I mean? Just take it day by day.

And I know that the one thing that I'm scared about with this emotional fatigue and the digital fatigue is that when things come back to what we might consider normal, is gonna be a lot of like trauma and stress related to, you know, this moment in time.

And whether that is looking back at what might have been affected, their, you know, their financials or their jobs or their families, whatever it may be. I think that there's gonna be a lot of stress and trauma related to this event. And yeah, it makes me sad. And I'm kind of scared for how that might affect me or how it might affect my friends or my family. So that's my biggest concern right now.

MM: Yeah, that's very true. Sorry, I had a follow-up question, but it just escaped me.

JL: No worries, you’re good. You’re good.

MM: Oh, have you felt any of that? Like that lack of motivation to do stuff? Or has it not really gotten to you like some of your friends?

JL: I think when quarantine first started, I was pretty---I was hyper motivated and I was pretty—I was really—productive. And then there got to a point where I kind of just like chilled out and kind of stopped. And I had someone else tell me the exact same thing about, you know, how to handle it and that it was okay to feel, you know, unmotivated, unproductive, and that, you know, we're in a weird situation. So I've been in that situation before, and I'm grateful for the person that told me, you know, it's okay. So I try to share that with my friends, too.

MM: How about like your brother if he was trying to finish courses online in Singapore? How is your brother handling it?

JL: Yeah, so fortunately, he didn't have many synchronous classes that he needed to be a part of. You know, I think it's synchronous or asynchronous. I don't know. But the ones where you have to be there live and listen.

MM: Yeah, synchronous. Yeah.

JL: Synchronous, yeah. There you go. Yeah, I wasn’t sure.

He didn't have many synchronous classes, so he could just watch lectures and stuff like that. So he was cool about that. But after class ended, I think there was a little bit of like, “Okay, how do I motivate myself to do all of these things and prep myself for, you know, the next step in my career?” Because the job market is like the economic downfall is like bad. You know, and I feel for some of the graduates that are graduating this year. And even for the next 18 months, like what is our economy going to look like? And how are they going to, you know, get a job as easy as it was maybe two years ago. So there's a lot of pressure there.

MM: Yeah, definitely. And when is your brother expecting to graduate?

JL: Next spring. So, Spring 2021. Yeah.

MM: So what do you think, like the positive or the negative aspects of living on islands is during a pandemic?

JL: Negative is the time zone. I'll say that, at least for work. And also the fact that I'm paying for two rents, and not living in any of them is also kind of crappy. But I will say that the positives outweigh the negatives. You know, being home is nice. And one of the biggest things for me is spending time with my family, so I get to do that.

The weather is nice. It's not super cold. It's feeling a little bit hot now, but other than that, it's good weather and I enjoy being home and eating my mom's cooking, so I can't complain. I think it's better than being in Indianapolis or Chicago right now.

MM: So have you noticed, like your community in Mililani coming together around COVID-19 issues?

JL: Yeah, I would say so. You know, I've seen a lot of good, you know, acts of, you know, acts of kindness, you know, throughout Mililani. I walk by my neighborhood, I'll see some people giving out some of their plants and like take one. Or people giving out face masks to their neighbors and stuff like that.

And even Mililani High School recently, they just had their graduation. And they had a full on ceremony where you drive by with their car, you drop off your kid. They walk, they walk and grab their diploma. And to see the community rally around that, to see the school rally around that and to make that happen for the graduates, it's pretty special. So I'm pretty happy with how our community has been handling it.

MM: That's really nice. And did you know anyone who was graduating from Mililani High School.

JL: Yeah, I knew one person. So it was cool, that—actually two—yeah, but it was cool that they got to do that.

MM: Yeah. So, what do you think about, I guess, Oʻahu's response to the pandemic?

JL: I think this. . . . I think there’s a lot of frustration for me at least. And not just Oʻahu, I think just Hawaiʻi as a general and all the different counties working together. It felt like there's a lot of like lack of communication, and people taking—following—orders from other people that shouldn't be following orders from. And it was just a little weird, you know what I mean?

And I felt like there was a lot of political play that was in motion that prevented orders or, you know, proactive steps and preventative steps that could have happened five days before, but ended up having five days later because there was a lot of things at play. So that was a little frustrating to me. And seeing that all unfold while I was here in Hawai’i, because, you know, I was coming from Indianapolis and Chicago where things were going on lockdown. And I was hearing about things happening in New York, in L.A. and San Francisco, and coming here and seeing it all play out and the officials making a decision. It was a little bit frustrating to see how long it was taking to get something done.

MM: How do you think the response turned out though? Their response?

JL: What do you mean by that?

MM: Like, how effective?

JL: I think it was, I think it was effective. I think that it, it did the job. Who knows what, you know, arrest rates or fines look like. I have no idea what, what that looks like. But I mean, the results speak for itself. I know. I'll say that. I thought it was really good. I know that people on, you know, some social media sites might not think so. But as much as I was frustrated about how long it took to get things done, I’m happy with the results, so I can't really complain about that.

MM: So I guess being back home during all of this, have you become more aware of, I guess, the resources on the island?

JL: You know, I think it exposed a lot of things about how dependent our economy is on the resource that we know as tourism, which is kind of a little bit concerning considering how bad it is, because a lot of my friends who work in tourism lost their jobs. And so that's a little bit difficult to swallow.

But the one thing that I think is good to see and to recognize is the resources that we have in small businesses around the island that have been working hard to serve their communities to stay open and how everyone has got together and supported the small businesses. So it might not be a natural resource, but it is—I still do think it's a resource—with our small businesses here in Hawaiʻi and now we're doing our best to keep them alive.

MM: So do you have any friends who have their own small businesses?

JL: Yeah, I have friends with small businesses, like, you know, in the creative space. But also, I know a lot of friends’ families who run restaurants and who have been heavily affected by the pandemic. So it's awesome seeing everyone support each other throughout this kind of weird time that we're in.

MM: How have you been trying to maybe support some of these businesses?

JL: Yeah. Even simply just like buying food from the restaurant. And if it's even posting on Instagram and telling people to go eat here, I think that that helps and that is a positive addition to kind of everything that we're going through. And in other ways, if there are—I know that there are—businesses that need help in certain areas, and we've got to do our best to support that, too.

MM: Yeah. And then are there any, like, changes you've noticed maybe in the land, the ‘āina? In terms of, I don't know, behaviors, maybe animal life, natural resources or anything like that?

JL: Yeah, well, I mean, personally, I haven't seen too much of, you know, changes, but seeing like online on seeing videos of like Waikīkī Beach or some other beaches that are a little bit more, that had been heavily, you know, populated at times, to see clear waters, to see less trash and, you know, people going out and trying to clean those up as well. I've seen a really big change in that way. And I hope that it serves as a reminder of what effect that we as people have on, you know, on the ‘āina, and what we can do to preserve it, because it's not forever, you know what I mean? So it's been interesting and really uplifting to see some of the changes that have been happening because of the lack of population in certain areas.

MM: And really early on, you said you were trying to figure out moving back to Chicago. So when are you planning on going back?

JL: Yeah. So really the hard part that I'm trying to orchestrate right now isn't necessarily flying back to Chicago, but it's moving out of my current Chicago apartment and into a new Chicago apartment, but also going back to Indianapolis and moving my stuff from Indianapolis to my new Chicago apartment. So I'm actually leaving on the 26th. So next week, six days from now. I'll be heading back to Chicago. Personally, I don't want to leave, but I can't help it. I have to move out of my apartment. My lease ends. And it sucks because my company has declared work from home until the end of the year 2020. So I could really stay home if I wanted to, but it is what it is.

MM: So do you think you'll be flying back later in the year maybe?

JL: There is a possibility. I think I will reevaluate come August, and then see if there's any way for me to just go back home and to go to work from home. But yeah, that's kind of what I'm considering.

MM: So, yeah, that's that's very soon going back. Is there anything you plan on doing before you head back?

JL: Eat as much as I can.

MM: (Laughs)

JL: That's the one thing that I can't really get in Indianapolis or in Chicago. I mean, you have to try really hard, but local food is one of my top cuisines. Or, like, you know, Hawai’i local food, so not being able to have that here at you know, just ordering it from a restaurant, is kind of sad. So I'll have to do more of that.

MM: What are some of your favorite foods or maybe places to eat at?

JL: For sure. So in general, absolutely love poke. I love Zippy's. I am very basic, but definitely---and I love sushi, too. So sushi in Chicago, you can find really good sushi in Chicago, but it's like super expensive. So it's not, It's kind of it's like, was that worth it? Did I really pay $80 for that? So Iike being in Hawai’i because it's a little bit cheaper and I still get that bit. But yeah, definitely sushi and poke and Zippy's and all the local food that I can find here.

MM: Yeah. For sure. How about like, do you plan on going to the beach? Or going anywhere?

JL: Yeah, because it recently opened up. I've been wanting to go to the beach last couple of days, but the weather has been great. So but hopefully hopefully in the next six days, I will go to the beach. That’s my plan.

MM: So I guess kind of wrapping things up, has this experience—like the COVID-19 experience in general—I guess transformed how you think about your family or maybe your friends or community?

JL: Yeah. I think to put it simply is it made me realize how much, you know, time is finite, at least in our lives, so like being able to spend quality time with my friends and my family, even if that means doing it virtually and digitally, is important to me. And seeing so many people suffer from the virus, whether that is directly or indirectly, has made me realize how blessed I am. So trying to spend more time with my family and quality time with my friends has been really important to me. So when I move back to Chicago, that's going to be huge for me is knowing that even if I'm so far away, you know, connecting and communicating digitally is not a problem, you know. I have no excuse to reach out to my friends even if I'm from far away. So that's what I've realized.

MM: Yeah, sure. And are there any other like final thoughts you wanted to share?

JL: No, I think I'm good. Yeah, it's the COVID-19 still is a very crazy ride. Who knows where we're gonna end up in like six months and what that's gonna look like. but hopefully it's better than what it is today. So that's what I'm hoping for.

MM: Yeah. Well, thank you for making the time to talk.

JL: For sure.