Interview with Associate Professor Barbara Patrick
This interview with Dr. Barbara Patrick (Associate Professor in the Department of Political Science) was conducted on October 2nd, 2020. The three events related to the "Race, Policing, & Social Justice in 2020: Looking Back And Moving Forward," which Dr. Patrick refers to, concluded on October 22. For more information about this speaker series and to view the recordings of each event, please visit the event website by clicking on the button below "Race & Policing 2020." The interview focuses on Dr. Patrick's research and perspectives on race and policing, particularly from her field of Public Administration.
Sonimar: In terms of police brutality, what things can we do to either prevent or guide the behaviour in different ways?
Barbara: From my research--I talked about some of this during my presentation in the Race & Policing on September 24th, there is a segment of police officers who probably have no business being on the force. Those individuals help to contribute to a negative culture inside of the agency. And I'll give you an example.
The city of Inkster, MI had a case of police brutality where two officers pulled an African American citizen from his car and beat him. One of the officers in this case was actually sentenced to prison, and that typically doesn't happen. But when we went back and started looking at the track record of the officer who was primarily involved, he had a long history of violating citizens’ civil rights. There had been two or three other cases where he had either taken the lives of African Americans citizens, or he had been involved in cases where citizens were assaulted by an officer. We have policies that allow officers with a history of violence and a track record of brutality to jump from one police agency to the next. Because of this there is no tracking of the acts that they committed as they move from one agency to the next… Often they are able to find jobs in dominantly minority communities because these communities have underfunded governmental systems. They're willing to work for a lower salary for the sake of having a job, but then the citizens become the potential victims of these individuals. There's some work to be done, policy-wise, to address these officers’ ability to move and to address the police agency’s ability to hire them after discovering a track record of abuse. That's just one element.
There are others who've talked about the issue of training of police officers, particularly the lack of emphasis on cultural awareness and cultural competency, and how they engage. Some parts I have not looked at are discussions of quality and how officers are treated after they commit a violent act against a citizen. There must be policies on how they are re-evaluated and what passes we're willing to give them after a violent act against a citizen. We’ve got to address these issues through policy. A part of what I do--and what I push for--is looking at policies on how officers do the job, how they're hired, how they're fired, addressing these issues through that lens.
S: How do you engage in conversation with people who think defunding the police is the solution?
B: In the Race & Policing event we had a panel discussion (on October 22) with Derrick Jackson, the Director of Community Engagement in the Washtenaw County Sheriff’s Office. He is an EMU graduate, a social worker, and an officer as well.
The discussion followed along two pathways. There are some people who say, “let’s defund the police,” but what they mean is that we should redirect funding for the police. They say stop putting funding into these militarized weapons and redirect funding to things like mental health training.
Then there's a second group of people whose argument for defunding the police means stop the funding. That's a problematic argument. Sometimes I think people make that argument out of sheer frustration. “I'm angry. I feel like the quality of service or care that I'm getting from these individuals is so poorly provided that I think we should just defund it.” This is not the solution. If you defund the police in that manner, it's just going to create a series of other problems. Somebody's going to have to deal with law enforcement in the country, you can’t just take it away.
There are some entities, like in the city of Pontiac, Michigan, where their police department was very inefficient and ineffective.Their answer was to contract out their police services through Oakland County. When they did that, the quality of services got a lot better, but the response time went down. That's a pathway, but the idea that you can take away law enforcement in its entirety because a behavior is somewhat misinformed and not a correct path to take.
This is why I say we have to have these types of conversations. It's a conversation where we educate people on the process so they can fully understand that in society you need law and order. Now, we can have conversations about what that looks like, and how we address issues inside of the system, but you can't completely do away with the system. Even if you try to do so, starting over and rebuilding an entity as significant as law enforcement would take a significant amount of time. You're going to have to work within the structure and address the issues.
But I do understand people's frustration with the process and feeling a sense of hopelessness.
S: Can you talk a little more about the policing event?
B: The policing event was a three part series on policing, which we hoped helped to educate the public on law enforcement and internal crises. Sometimes you see a five or 10 minute soundbite on the news and that is all people get access to. We want to start conversations about the policies for these individuals and the internal forum.
So we organized a three part series (September 24th, October 8th, and October 22nd--for more information, visit the events’ website: https://sites.google.com/emich.edu/race-policing-2020).
On September 24th, I gave the opening talk about policies that govern, state oversight, discretion and the ability to either fire or retain problem officers on the force and what policy reform should be implemented. This was centered somewhat around the city of Inkster and the Floyd Dent police brutality case, because that case just provides a good sense of the things that are wrong with the system, which were addressed during the second talk.
William T. Riley, the current Chief of Police for the city of Inkster, was the guest speaker for the second event. Chief Riley's talk was about community engagement. Inkster had a very flawed relationship between the police department and the community. From the moment he came in, he began to reform those relationships. Now some of the hostility that once existed has begun to dissipate. He had a discussion on strategies and techniques he used to help strengthen the relationship. He is a law enforcement officer, and also an African American male. In the media reports he has been referred to as the Black Lives Matter Police Chief. He tends to have a very clear understanding of some of these social dynamics and racial dynamics that are playing out in this process.
S: How was the attendance for the first one?
B: On the first event we had over a hundred people attend, which I was very pleased with. The interest in the event, based on attendance, speaks to the significance of the issue: people are interested and they want to, and we need to, have these discussions. To have over a hundred attendees [for the first event], when we're doing this via Zoom and in this environment, I was pleased with, and it just speaks to how important it is.
S: Do you know if the attendance was mainly from the EMU community or was there a good representation from the community around EMU?
B: I'm not sure I can say. I looked at the list of attendees early on, and there were a significant number of EMU faculty, students, and staff, but we also had law enforcement personnel from Southeast Michigan who were also present.
S: How do you show students at EMU things are happening at our school in response to everything that's going on in society?
B: The policing series is one part of the discussion. When you look at the civil rights movements, a big part of that came from young people. College students who engaged in the process and they said, “No, we're going to force the discussion. We're going to put it on the agenda and force policy makers to listen.” We need students to take part of the conversation and then educate them with the information they need to be a part of the change. That's the policing series.
There are other things. Our ultimate goal is to have a conversation that focuses primarily on law enforcement in Southeast Michigan. We want to bring officers in, primarily police chiefs and chairs, to have a conversation about what's going on inside of their entities, what are the problems, how EMU might serve as an outlet, and how to assist law enforcement to reform certain processes.
It could be for cities that are financially distressed, change is having a contact person who could deliver or give them advice as it relates to personnel policy from a state perspective. or how you deal with different types of issues. Therefore by addressing the people who do law enforcement, hopefully we make it a safer place for all of us.
The second part of that is that we're actually sponsoring a listening session for students. These listening sessions for students provide a space for them to have this discussion about what has happened across the country, but even more importantly, discuss EMU as an institution and the type of environment we are creating. For example, are we creating a space where students feel safe to talk about these issues? Here at EMU, we've had our own issues tied to race, equity, and diversity. One of the issues that students have said over and over again is, “We think the faculty needs to be more aware of diversity issues, students' needs and how they engage." We heard them and we listened.
So over the summer we put on a workshop called, “Diversity, Equity and Action in Higher Ed.” Essentially it was a training session for faculty members on diversity issues and meeting students needs. It was a voluntary event and we had over 130 faculty members show up in the summer while they were not getting paid. They volunteered to come and get the training because it was significant to them. They cared about the students and they wanted to send that message.
I think it's important for students to know that: one, WE'RE HERE; two, WE’RE LISTENING; and three, WE SUPPORT YOU. And after you speak to us, we want to help make reforms to address some of the issues you raised for us. So come out to the listening session too, this way we can hear more about what your needs are and how we can meet those needs.
S: Where do you find these listening sessions?
B: We send out flyers through the Deans of our Colleges and Department Heads, and these are also posted on the campus updates. The flyer includes a Zoom link. If you click on the Zoom link you can register to the listening session event and get access to the conversation. Everything has been done via Zoom. Our hope is also for those students who attend, and they can get LBC credit for their attendance.
S: Do you see other major events, similar to the policing event, happening in the near future?
B: Yes, I do. I’ll say this, but I don't want to speak too far into the future. Our desire is to have listening sessions, to see what the students’ desires are, and after we know what students desire we can move in that direction. A second part of that is to have an event where we have a panel, we'll say police chiefs and people who do community engagement, and they will speak directly to the students, and the students can ask them questions. I've seen this happen at a couple of other universities and it was done well. I think we can do it well here too.
The goal is to talk about where we live and where the students live. This way if there are issues or concerns, they/we can get the answers from the source of what's going on in the communities. What are you doing to address the issues that impact their lives? And more importantly; What are you doing to bridge the gap and give them access to information so that they know that they're protected, safe, that you're listening and that you want to serve them.
S: How are we preparing for voting?
B: That's a huge part. On the third event (October 22), one of the issues that we're going to highlight, when we talk about how students are engaged, is voting. It's so important that everyone inside of the state of Michigan votes. To the extent that if you live in the state of Michigan and you have not registered, you can register the day of and still go and vote. If you are concerned about going outside because of COVID, please vote early. You have to pay attention to these elections, what people are saying, and most importantly, what they're doing and what they're proposing.
I know the election of 2016 brought out a lot of emotions. It made people more aware of the voting process and, for a lot of people who took it for granted afterwards, I think they felt a certain way about not engaging in a process. So we can't stress enough to students that you HAVE TO VOTE.
It's important to vote in the presidential election, but it is also very important you know what's going on in the Senate elections, the House elections, and even local politics that are close to you because of these policing issues. A lot of that happens at the local and state levels. So you have to know what these people are saying when you go and vote for them.
And then if they had events where they're seeking to engage the public, and some of this is done online, ask questions about what their plans are, and more importantly, how those plans are going to directly impact you as a student.
S: I'm 25 years old and I still don't exactly know how things go in terms of voting. I didn't grow up here and politics in Puerto Rico are a bit different. I was part of the 2016 elections, which was my first time voting, and I felt very overwhelmed and lost. Are there any school resources that can help educate students with the process of voting and where to find reliable information on the candidates?
B: I honestly can't speak to that and say yes or no. What I can do is check and get back to you. And if not, I can send you a couple of sources, where they will give you information on the issues and the ballot. I can provide some state sites, but I'll have to check to see if and what we have available through the university.
S: This is outside the university, but there's a YouTube Channel called “Good Mythical Morning” and they are very big on just trying to get everyone educated and voting. They actually made a very simple website with links to where you can register, where you can find information about your state/federal and presidential candidates, and it even has a quiz that matches your responses on major issues to the candidates that most agree with you on those issues. It’s called votelikeabeast.com. That’s where I have been trying to learn more about this.
B: I mean, I am going to recommend that to my students so that they can go. I know that some people do like straight ticket voting, but with straight ticket voting, they may not know all of the candidates or where they stand, but they have a pretty good idea of where Republicans tend to fall and where Democrats tend to fall. So they will vote a straight ticket for one party or the other. You know that website sounds very helpful, especially for students who are new to voting and trying to sort it out. Then, those who were busy and may not just have the time to invest to know what's going on in all of the elections.
S: I've been stressing out about it and I was just like, “how do I do that?”
B: Yeah. It makes me happy that you've been stressing out about it because you've been thinking about it! For a lot of people they have not been given this thought and now it is extremely important that you vote.
There's a vibe across the country right now, where people are feeling that your vote doesn't matter or your vote won't count. The only way your vote doesn't count is if you don't cast it. Regardless of what political rhetoric is flooding around out there, people have to. Go and vote and rise above that. I constantly tell people don't believe it, don't believe it. This process has been going on for many, many years. Your vote does matter and your vote will be counted. So please, the more we can encourage them to get out and join us the better.
S: Well, that's really all the questions I have for you. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this!
B: Thank you for doing this.
S: Hopefully we can work together again in the future.
B: Yeah, I hope so, too.
S: Awesome. Good bye!
B: Bye!