Scrapbook of information about myself and relate linksInstead of writing an autobiography, I write on topics that are related to me, or that interest me, and you can judge what a person I am by reading what I write, what I think and how I feel. This page and the journal page serve for this purpose. [Summer 1998] [Catch a ride] [On friends] [Hit rate] [Computing] [Academics] [Interests] ThrashingPhysicists and mathematicians use the alphabet i to denote the square root of -1. However, because i has been chosen to denote current in electrical engineering, engineers use j to denote the square root of -1. All is fine, unless you are studying physics and engineering at the same time, like me. When you have been thinking about physics for a while, and there comes an engineering problem set, you simply don't know how to do it because you are mixing up all the i's and j's! Incidentally, j denotes the current density in physics (and a whole bunch of other things including a general angular momentum eigenvalue, etc). For MIT people, I am mixing up between 8.059 and 6.003. -- 19- 3-1999 ADMarathon! Marathon! Marathon!An MIT undergraduate education is like a series of eight marathons -- The race starts on the first day of class every September and February, after which one simply toils and toils and toils until the last day of one's final examinations, when the race stops momentarily, until the next first day of class arrives. This thought came to me during my second year here, which was the year I began to be `on grade'. If you are an MIT student, would you claim that you understand what IHTFP means? I believe it was not until my fourth term here that I truly understand it and feel empathy to both of its meanings. Allow me to be a little boastful here, to say that successfully getting through an MIT undergraduate curriculum is indeed not a piece of cake. When I first came to MIT, I was expecting myself to be at the bottom of the class. Believe me; it was true. Fortunately, things did not turn out as bad as I thought -- or was it not as good as I thought? While I have managed not to be at the bottom of the class, I also come to realise that not everybody in this place is as smart and unreachable as I thought. So, instead of the initial plan of staying at the bottom of the class but still feeling proud, because everybody else were supposed to be too intelligent to be approachable, my university years wind up to be almost nothing but studying. It has indeed not been easy (although I know very clearly that there are many other who has worked much much harder than I have). (23- 2-1999 addition) There are both pros and cons to this all-studying lifestyle of mine in MIT -- In fact, it is also the lifestyle for many others, at least for the many people I know. For one thing, one will be truly amazed how much human can stretch their physical and mental abilities. Never had I believed that I can work such long hours, read and understand so many pages of technical text, and generate so many and so thick problem set solutions in so limited amount of time. Now, I indeed believe in the value of hard work in academic studies, and regard it higher than smartness (which is somewhat determined at birth anyway). On the contrary, whenever an outside friend asks one of us, `So, what do you do when you are not studying?' Most of us would probably be speechless (If someone asked me, I would answer with hockey, anime, skating, eating out, etc, but that makes no difference, because my mind is not on these activities anyway). However, the important point is -- we should not feel sorry about our studying and doing nothing else. Someone once told me that the brain consumes a lot of energy when we think, as in studying, so much that it is comparable to physical activities. The last part might be merely my own invention, but I believe the idea is still true. When one studies, this person's brain is `running', and running very hard. What we often neglect is the fact that studying takes much energy and spirit, and it can be very tiring. If an athlete does nothing much other than rest outside their training time, probably no one will find anything wrong. Yet, if a student does nothing but rest when they are not studying, many would think this is unacceptable. In a sense, we are all making a very serious trade off here -- we devote all our resources to our studies, give up all other activites, in exchange for the value of knowledge and practical skill that will lead us on a successful career. Yes, I work damn hard. Even though I am not studying twenty-four hours a day, I still say so, because diligence is not sole measured by the amount of time put into an endeavour, but also the amount of resources devoted into it. We are relinquishing high opportunity costs. (Back to 21- 2-1999) I have this rather funny belief -- The key to getting through an MIT undergraduate education is perseverance plus determination. It is always the case (for me) here, that I find myself surrounded by extremely smart people, that course work just seems too intimidating, and that I wish to quit. The last one is a very dangerous thought. The most crucial skill for success here may probably not be academic aptitude, but the ability to cope with one's own emotional fluctuations and to create for oneself a strong incentive to stride forward in the gloomy view of enormous difficulties. Winning the others may be quite an unrealistic idea, but winning over oneself and getting good grades in classes is definitely possible, given enough labour and stamina. Perhaps, the most effective tactic is not to think too much and simply dive into work. When one thinks too much, one often becomes indecisive because of the many more extra feelings and considerations generated from such thought processes. Too much thought is unwanted. Pathetic? Perhaps it is, but this is a marathon, and during a marathon, one needs only follow the race track and not think too much. Of course, we are all putting high bet (both tangible and intangible) on having a life long enough to graduate from MIT and to benefit with the knowledge and skills we acquire here, as nothing in life is really for granted. (haha, 23- 1-1999 again) I read somewhere (which I forgot, again), that human emotion is strongly influenced by one's actions. That means if one smiles more, be more active and joyful, then, one will be more happy as a consequence. In engineering terms, is this a feedback system between emotion and action? Perhaps. If so, the key will be -- At which stage of the system can we impose a driving force to get the system response we want. The crucial thing to remember when one feels down is not to dwell on this feeling, and do nothing. Probably the only way to get out of a depressed state is to pull oneself out by one's own effort. It is no use, perhaps even harmful, if one thinks of nothing but the depression and feels more sad and worried about it. Perhaps not thinking is the way to get through MIT. Not thinking too deeply, in too philosophical terms, that is. Of course, I have my times of depression, too; they are often, and I am more likely unable to do what I just asserted than otherwise. Nevertheless, that does not deny the validity of the way of living and thinking as an ideal behaviour to work torwards. (21- 2-1999) Professor Wolfe discussed our experiences through an MIT education and compared it with getting through a life confronting psychological problems, in our last 9.00 lecture. At times, there are frustrating moments, some people will not be able to cope with it. Then, they give up -- some will drop out, while some will end their lives. Yet, most of us will be alright; most of us will survive and graduate, with much toil maybe, but most of us will do it. So, one must be careful, be reminded and warned of the worst possibilities that could happen, and hope for the good results, and be aware that they are reachable goals, though one must move one's legs to get through the marathon. [I indeed think that this is a very badly written passage, but I find the need to convey the main idea and my concerns about it, due to some common phenomena that I have observed occuring in my social circle; so, this passage has to stay for a while at least.] -- UTC 13:06 21- 2-1999 ADWhat to do for life -- A hypothetical scenarioYou come to MIT and you just want to teach?
If you just want to teach, why do you pay so much to come here,
when there are many more economical alternatives elsewhere? [A note on several passages that follows: I have dwelt on these ideas for a long long time already; yet, it is not until today, 1st February, 1999, while I am having insomnia, that I get around to write them all up. There are some old thoughts that I can no longer remember faithfully; so, these are rather, a mix of what I thought back then and what I think now.] On some song lyricsJohn Lennon's ImagineI agree with the first half (stanzas?), but not the second. No possession? I believe Lennon meant this to be a Utopia. However -- perhaps I am too technical-minded -- I rather think that this idea is quite close to (economic) Communism, and is against Adam Smith's economics ideas. Having studied much economics for some time, I am afraid I have become inclined to the Capitalist way of thinking, too -- the invisible hand and the problem of incentives. Nevertheless, it is still true that I long for a Utopia, a world with no misfortune, but a world that will reward hardwork and good virtues. Songs in the 1960sThinking about it, although I really like Simon and Garfunkel, I do not understand the lyrics of many of their most famous songs, such as The Sound of Silence, Scarborough Fair and The Boxer, which are amongst my favourites. Even for those lyrics that are quite unambiguous, such as I am a Rock, Feeling Groovy or El Conna Pasa, one would wonder what makes them think those ways. Perhaps there is something about the 1960s that I do not know, that prevents me from understanding the background of these songs, for I have the same problem with the Bee Gee's songs, too. What inspired them to write First of May or I Started a Joke? There is a complete story in each of these lyrics, which is very rarely the case for pop music nowadays. Perhaps that is partly why I like these songs of the 1960s. Recent onesJewel's Hands seems to be quite full of meaning, but I honestly do not comprehend the whole picture. In fact, I think Jewel is a special and interesting character -- a beautiful voice and a good musician, too, needless to say. I always find that pop music is too saturated with songs about love, and there seems to be some variety with Jewel's -- yet, I still need much time to absorb and comprehend most of her songs before I can say further, as I do not think I agree with every song of hers totally... The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and Making FriendsFirstly, allow me to state the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in a rather careless and inappropriate way, but which will be good enough to serve my purpose here -- Every experimental observation of a physical system requires a disturbance to the system being observed. So, it is impossible to extract information from a system without making any interaction with it (ie, disturbing it). My point is simple -- it is the same with making friends. Every act one does has an influence -- direct or indirect -- on the others. Even when one is merely listening, observing, or simply being present in some place at some time with some other people, a difference is made. Being present, one is assumed to have the memory of the event, to have received certain information that was exchanged, to have experienced similar circumstances, and perhaps to have observed certain things, and to hold certain point of view, too (If you take chaos into consideration, one may also argue that one's breathing has changed the world, too). Of course, there is nothing good or bad about this unavoidable nature of human interactions. No moral or ethical value is implicit in it. Yet, when one is thinking of helping one's friends in some way, then, this often becomes a very complicated concern. Giving advice to a friend is not only just that -- when the friend hears the advice, they may reconsider their actions, their mindset may change, circumstances may become different, and as a good friend, the person giving the advice will really worry about making things even worse (If you know about Young's double slit experiment, think about the interference pattern, and an advice as the act of locating which slit the wave-particle passes through before it reaches the screen). Sarcastic though it sounds, of course such things often happen. Frankly, I do not know what more to say about this, for I am still in desperate search of the right way to deal with people myself. Thinking about all this, it reminds me of a Cantonese song by Priscilla Chan ten years ago (1989), called `Ying Goi Bud Ying Goi' (`Should or Should Not'; good lyrics and good melody, and I liked Priscilla Chan). There is a slight sense of helplessness in the lyrics, which quite touched me. UTC 10:59 1- 2-1999 ADBiological philosophyI did not take the required introductory biology class until my third year in university, during Spring 1998, because I was absolutely uninterested in biology. However, I indeed learned a lot from that class, notably the current development and potentials of genetic engineering, as well as some other interesting facts of living things. It triggered some mysterious thoughts, too, such as this one, which I told Monique Lo and Derek Cheung one day in the 5th floor lounge in the Student Centre back then. I suppose I have always been thinking about the question of `who I am'. So, in the realm of biology, I was doing that, too. I wonder -- `what' is me, or what am I made of exactly? Thinking about it with a little care, one would find that such questions cannot be answered too exactly. What is part of me? Is the bacteria in the digestive system part of me? What about the ingested food, or the breathed air? If a haemoglobin molecule within me is part of me, then, when it carries an oxygen molocule, the oxygen molocule is probably part of me, too. Yet, it was not some time ago, until I breathed it in. What about the water I drink? If one looks at a glass of water in one's hand, one would probably say that the water in the glass is not part of oneself. Then, what if this person drinks the glass of water? Now, one would probably say that the water is part of oneself. Now, when exactly is it part of the body? Is it the moment one gulp the water in? What if one spits it out? Is it the moment it is absorbed in the intestine then? Yet, the water moleculues never change, not at the moment when one gulps in it, nor when one's intestine absorbs it. Such strange questions can be asked in many other situations, too -- about your hair when you have a haircut, about your fingernails, your set of milk teeth, your saliva and your sweat. When I began wearing contact lenses, I thought about it, too. In our introductory psychology class back in the 1995 Fall Term, Professor Jeremy Wolfe told of a psychological illness for which a patient does not recognising the patient's own limps as part of themselves (while the limps are perfectly intact with the rest of the body). So, it seems that the question of `what I am' may not really be strictly biological, but may also be psychological -- the self being an abstract concept versus a concrete inference to a physical identity. Yet, perhaps neither description is complete nor sufficient. Yet, is the combination of the two sufficient or complete? I suppose, to question about the soul, or consciousness is yet out of the realm of our scientific ability nowadays. So, at the end of the day, I still wonder if I know anything at all about who I am. So, next time when you have turkey for dinner, you can wonder if you will become a turkey after it becomes part of your digestive system... UTC 10:23 1- 2-1999 ADPythagoras' TheoremThis is just a short wonder. Consider a path going from (0,0) to (1,1). The shortest path is of course the straight line connecting the two points, a diagonal line on the Cartesian plane with length of the square root of 2 units. One can also go from (0,0) horizontally to (1,0), then from (1,0) vertically to (1,1), with a distance of 2 units. Doing it in small steps, going horizontally and vertically repeatedly will also work, also with total distance of 2 units. So, here is the wonder -- As the number of steps increases indefinitely, and the size of each step decreases indefinitely, wouldn't the steps path becomes the diagonal line connecting (0,0) and (1,1)? Why would the length of one be 2 units, while the other be the square root of 2 units? What is wrong here? Of course, I think I know the answer now. Yet, I believe it is indeed true that when I first learned about the Pythagoras theorem, I simply take it for granted that what is taught in school must be right, and I have never questioned about it until many years later. Perhaps this is a warning to me, to us, the students of science. It is only when we are wise enough to think and assess critically that the Truth of Nature can be revealed to us. In any case, this is a little piece of childhood wonder. What I find interesting is that one of my friends in university also wondered about it! =) I hope you know you who you are.Beggars and fortune cookiesBeggars are everywhere. In Vancouver as well as in Boston-Cambridge, wanderers can be seen (usually around Chinatown or downtown) asking people to spare some change. You may not usually think of them as beggars, because the word `beggar' sounds quite degrading, but they are! Really. Aren't they? Social insurance is a very well-developed scheme in the Western World. Especially in Canada, where some people pay as high as 55% of they salaries on income tax, the medical, unemployment and retirement insurances should be very reliable (I have been told that the Canadian health care programme is one of the best in the world, but this is not the issue here). Given that, wouldn't you wonder why there are still so many beggars on the streets? I almost never give any money to beggars in North America. If they have a chance to see some poor people in developing countries, they should be ashame of themselves. I was on the upperdeck of a bus the other day, in Hong Kong, and I caught a glimpse of an old man sitting in a small park alone. He was thin like a skeleton, wearing only a thin T-shirt (`bui sum') and shorts, and idling. The misery I felt is too much for my verbal ability to describe. Yet, such a scene is not uncommon in Hong Kong. Also, Hong Kong is a wealthy part of Asia. So, I am afraid I cannot imagine how people can live in the rural parts of China or India. When I was a child, my mother once brought me to a film theatre. At the entrance, where many people are crowding and walking in, an mid-aged man was standing by the railings holding a mug and begging for money. So, I asked my mother to give him a few (Hong Kong) dollars, because I did not have any money as a child. My mother did not say a word, waved her hands at me indicating `no', and we passed the beggar by. Then, my mother said to me, `I won't give any money to this kind of beggar.' I asked why, and my mother asked me back, `He has both hands and legs, and he is not old. Why doesn't he make a living for himself?' So, on that day, I learned the difference between lazy people, and unfortunate people who are truly in need (My mother does give money to beggars on the streets in Hong Kong, especially the handicapped ones, silently, as I sometimes notice). So, an interesting thought came to me one day. Sometimes when we go to Chinatown for a meal, some beggars ask us to spare some change. I almost never give them any money, but I feel bad about that, because I never know if they are really miserable people truly in need. If they say, they need to the money to take the underground train, well, they can walk. What if they say that they need the money to get food? So, I wonder, if I give them some fortune cookies -- those ones you get in Chinese restaurants in the Western World -- wouldn't that be nice? Then, they have something to fill their stomach for the moment; serves exactly the purpose. Of course, what I truly wonder, is whether I would get beaten up. UTC 03:32 1- 2-1999 AD`Priority lists'I once have this strange and impersonal partial theory about friendship, about two years ago in 1997. I believed that everybody have a `priority list' of friends, which we make up unconsciously. The thought was just that. So, what does that mean, or what made me think that way? Oftentimes, one has a limited amount of resources to be allocated to one's acquaintances. For instance, when you decide how many Christmas cards to write this year, how many gifts to buy, which old friends to visit during a trip back to your home town, how many people and whom to invite to your birthday party, to a group activity, or how many people and whom to give a ride on your car. In these common situations that we have to face in our everyday life, we are forced into a somewhat difficult situation in which we have to draw a line and include certain people of our acquaintance into a privileged group, and consequently excluding the rest of the people we know. The size as well as the nature of the selected group vary, of course, and in order to be ready with such selection decisions, one needs a `priority list'. This is how I developed the idea. Of course, one will in fact have many such lists (or `orderings of the same elements'), depending on the nature and thus the criteria of the selection. The list is dynamic, too -- the order changes with time; new elements are inserted for time to time, and more ways of sequencing can develop as our social circle complicates. So, I communicated this idea with some people, and it somehow became a topic of discussion about me. When I learned about this, I found it quite unexpected. Perhaps quite interesting, too. I do not mind people talking about me, and I think this is just one of the many strange thoughts I have. Yet, it is what interests people that I wonder, because I never know what about myself do people like to know genuinely. UTC 03:53 1- 2-1999 ADNo titleI had a big dinner this evening. Drank three cups of coffee. `You are going to be up all night,' said the waitress, smiling. Yes, it is now two o'clock and I am still very energetic. I guess I am really going to be up all night. The people next door are still talking very loudly at this hour. May the Divine curse them. I went over. `Would you mind keeping the noise low? It is very late already,' I asked. `OK. Would you close the door, please?' said one of them. Naturally, I closed their door for them. Yet, thinking about it right afterwards, wasn't it inappropriate for them to ask ME to close THEIR door? And mind you that I was asking them to keep quiet! For about ten seconds, I felt bad for asking them to keep quiet. But I bet anybody will agree with me that it is not right to be disturbing your neighbours at 2am (on a Sunday night, and the next day is not a holiday), even if your neighbour has had three cups of coffee (with lots of sugar) and is going to be up all night. I am going to be up all night and I am not making any noise! Why are they justified to do so!? They aren't -- no matter how many cup of coffee or how much sugar they have had for dinner. May the Divine curse them once again. It often annoys me that I am such a coward -- well, not a coward really, because I do have the guts to walk over and ask them to keep quiet. But I don't know why I should feel bad about doing so. I cannot help it. I cannot help feeling bad about preventing others from stepping over and infringing my rights. It is a dilemma -- a pathetic one for me. Sometimes, I would wish that I am a jerk -- I bet my neighbours live much more in peace making noise at 2am than I, worrying about making these people unhappy. What is good to be a nice guy? None. Nobody will give a damn. Somebody came out of the room next door, banged the door and yelled, `I am leaving now!' I guess it is a protest. So, I asked myself, `Am I afraid of being beaten up?' Fortunately, I have not ever been beaten up so far in my life. I am really lucky; having lived in North America for five years, the worst done on me has been racist comments and despising attitudes; no hard fists yet. I am writing this partly because I have had too much coffee and sugar. Yet, more importantly, I am writing this because I believe this is not right. I admit that I am a coward and I don't like arguing with them face to face, but I cannot keep my silence either -- even if Justice does not exist. If one day, I were killed or handicapped, and could no longer speak, my wish would be that people whom I care would know what I believe in, and would fight with me for my ideal. Of course, whether Justice exists, whether Right and Wrong are absolute, are very complicated questions by themselves. Yet, I guess I shall leave these for another time. EDT 02:33 22- 6-1998 AD, Cambridge, MassachusettsWork for this summerThis summer, I am finally doing my first UROP in physics. I am working for Professor Jacqueline Hewitt of the Radio Astronomy Group, in the Centre for Space Research. So, finally, I am working in Building 37, too. I shall continue on the analysis of data from the Survey for Transient Astronomical Radio Emission (STARE) (See the 4th paragraph on this page for a description of the STARE project. 16- 6-1998. I just noticed that my laboratory is running Sun Sparc IPX, Sparc 1+, Sparc 2 and DEC 3000. =) Albert Wong commented that Athena was running VAX 3100 and DEC 3100 when he was a frosh. `Catch a ride'On friends8- 3-1998. Jacky made note that most `friends' we get to be acquainted in these four years of university will not be in our lives after we graduate. Yes, this is indeed very true. In fact, I do not expect to keep in touch with anybody here. If I am lucky, I shall lead a quite solitary life, spending much time doing physics. I was once eager to get to know everybody; I once thought that true friendship does not deteriorate with distance or the routines of life. Not anymore. People come and go. Just too natural. The hit rate of my web pageRecently (Today is 9-11-1997), I discovered an interesting and a bit sarcastic fact. When I mention my web page to friends, most people do not realise that it looks as it appears today. I have not changed the structure of the site since Autumn, 1996. Also, few people outside MIT know that I have been to Bermuda, Britain, Greece and Egypt. So, I conclude that the `hit rate' of this site is REALLY low. If you are reading this, and if you know me personally, do let me know. ComputingIn February 1996, I acquired the first PC in my life. Five months later, the Linux server Kings-College.MIT.edu was born! =) I have also played with NetBSD on it for a while, but not now, because I do not have enough partitions on the hard disk. If I buy an additional hard disk sometime, I wish to try out Solaris as well. =) Since April 1997, I have been typing on a Dvorak keyboard. I switched from qwerty to Dvorak simply because it is a neat idea. It took me about four weeks to completely get used to it. I cannot really say whether I type faster now than with a qwerty keyboard, but I do think that it is quite comfortable. The only disadvantage is the inconvenience when I only have a qwerty available at times. AcademicsI did the International Baccalaureate in my last two years of senior secondary school. It is indeed a very good programme. I especially think that the Theory of Knowledge class and the Extended Essay are valuable and unique experiences that have taught me a lot. I am a member of the Experimental Study Group in MIT. 12s23 Hands-On Astronomy: Observing Stars and Planets is a seminar I took in my first term in MIT, which I strongly recommend. During summer 1997, I worked as a UROP student for the Computation Structures Group in the Laboratory for Computer Science of MIT. I participated in the William Lowell Putnam Mathematical Competition in 1996 and 1997. I do not do well; I just find it fun. I also participated in the 1997 Boston Area Undergraduate Physics Competition. It was also quite fun. How did I do? Hehe, not very well either, of course. =P =) Interesting. I can't believe I am in a local news article (This is nothing boastful; everybody in MIT has some things like this). InterestsCartoons-- for my friends who grow up with them just as I do
If you are from Hong Kong, you must have watched Japanese cartoons on TV, translated to Cantonese. I have not heard one single person says that they do not like it (which I think is very natural). If you want more information on Japanese cartoons related web pages, go to my bookmarks page. Touch and The Five Star Stories are my favourites. I first watched Touch on TV and read FSS in comics, both in junior secondary, back in Hong Kong. Now that I am in North America and busy like hell (that is a `generic term' for MIT), I no longer have any Japanese cartoons to watch on TV. ='( Nevertheless, I go to anime showings of the MIT Anime Club quite regularly. Also, Gatchaman was broadcasted on TV as `The Eagle Riders' last term (Autumn 1996), and I watched it every Sunday morning. =P I must give my highest recommendation to Mr Hung Chi Ming's anime web page. You will find extremely comprehensive information on Miyazaki's works as well as many other Japanese cartoons there. Mr Hung Chi Ming is also a Kingsian, incidentally. =) Dilbert is one of the few comic strips that I truly appreciate. Perhaps of the technical environment in which I am, I often find Dilbert funny and sympathetic. MusicI play the piano (but not very well though). I was also a member of the school choir from Primary 4 to Secondary 3. Quite embarrassing to say, these are history now. Amongst many others, I like the music of Nishimura Yukie, a Japanese pianist and composer. It seems that there are not much information on her on the web, but here are some:
I also like the music of Simon and Garfunkel. They harmonize really well. Also, the lyrics of their songs are very rich, and meanings very deep. 1- 2-1999 AD: And the Bee Gees. Recent attention is drawn to Jewel, Shania Twain, Gloria Estefan, Air Supply, the Cranberries, Celine Dion and Madonna. LiteratureAm I being too pretentious to say that I like reading classical literature? Maybe. In fact, I do not have much time to read anyway. Nevertheless, there are indeed writers I like, such as Charles Dickens. I recommend his Bleak House to you. I also like Robert Frost, but I am afraid I have read too little of his work to truly appreciate it. Recently, I read Douglas Adam's The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy of five. Certainly a very strange book. ArtDuring my first visit to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, I was caught by Pierre August Cot's painting `The Storm'. My eyes simply could not leave it. What a beautiful work of art! I can only find Cot's other painting (Springtime?) in the museum on the web though. SportI skate. I play hockey. I wish I could play volleyball more often. I play none of these well. MiscellaneousLEGO was one of my favourite toys in childhood. The other favourite was jigsaw puzzle. =) I eat baked scrod submarine sandwich with lettuce, onion and tomato in it, and drink Nantucket Nectars. This is not a hobby, but something I do quite regularly as dinner. |